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macona
10-24-2008, 07:55 PM
I need at least 24 vises for work benches at work. Guessing about 4", I stopped at HF on the way home and those things are total crap.

Anyone know of a source of decent vises at a good price. Would like wiltons but I dont want to spend $500 a vise!

HSS
10-24-2008, 08:37 PM
"decent vises at a good price" I think they call that an oxymoron:D

Fasttrack
10-24-2008, 08:42 PM
craigslist? :)

How about Craftsman? I've got a six inch Craftsman vice from about 6 years ago. Its pretty decent and it was cheap. I think it cost 60 bucks and its held up well to my SERIOUS abuse! Its not as nice as some of the older vices that were eseentially table-top tanks, but pretty good for the cost.

wierdscience
10-24-2008, 08:53 PM
Fastrack beat me to it,but-

Don't laugh too hard, honestly for a general purpose bench vise these are hard to beat-

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00951856000P

I have two at home,one I bought about ten years ago and another four years ago both are made here although I don't know about the new ones.

Steel beam with ductile iron base and jaw.Not bad for $75.

They also have the next step up-

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00951872000P

Other than that there are some cast steel import vises for about the same money,but the fit and finish isn't as good while the price is close to the same.All in all I think it's one of the few items Sears hasn't let go to crap.

Neither vise is a Wilton W800,but they ain't $2400 :eek: either.

Bison makes a decent line of ductile body vises in the same price range.

Columbian is still in business,but just as high as Wilton.

The vise I am looking for was one I saw a few years back.It was fabricated from steel plate,dam near indestructable.

oldtiffie
10-24-2008, 09:07 PM
I guess we are talking about a sizable quantity (24) of vises here - not "one offs".

I presume that, ideally, all should be identical - or close to it.

What are the vices for and what sort of work and wear will they be subjected to?

Should they be 3", 4" or 6".

Are they to be "heavy", "medium" or "light" duty?

Do they need a swiveling base?

Will they need to grip "pipe" or "rounds"?

Must the jaws be able to tilt left/right in the vise body?

Is a "hammering face" on the top of the fixed jaw/body a requirement?

Would an "anvil horn" be handy?

Is spares availability a requirement?

Must they be made in the US?

What color/s are required?

Why not go to "Expressions of Interest" or "Tender" etc.?

etc.

davidh
10-24-2008, 09:28 PM
I need at least 24 vises for work benches at work. Guessing about 4", I stopped at HF on the way home and those things are total crap.

Anyone know of a source of decent vises at a good price. Would like wiltons but I dont want to spend $500 a vise!

give me a wilton number and maybe i can help . . . . .

dfw5914
10-24-2008, 09:50 PM
I have to agree, from a value standpoint, the Craftsman vises are pretty good. Plus parts are east to get.

Bruce Griffing
10-24-2008, 09:53 PM
Probably too late for this, but Record made some decent vises before they went out of the biz. I think there are still pockets of inventory for sale if you can find them. Late last year I bought a 6" (I think) Record machinists vise for less than $50. Pretty good vise for $50

rantbot
10-24-2008, 10:03 PM
I bought one of these Wilton cheapos

http://www.wttool.com/product-exec/product_id/19314/nm/Shop_Vises_Wilton_

five or six years ago and haven't managed to bust it yet.

dfw5914
10-24-2008, 10:05 PM
The Craftsman vises look a lot like Wilton stuff.

dp
10-24-2008, 10:05 PM
I don't care for the flying wing jaws on the Sears vises. I do like the bulk of jaws such as this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Bench-Vise-w-Anvil-6-/G7060

And for a second vise I like the versatility and workability of a swivel vise like this: http://www.grizzly.com/products/Multi-Purpose-5-Bench-Vise/G7062

I don't earn a living with a vise so my needs may be very easily addressed with these two styles.

I still own every vise and anvil I've ever purchased, so I'm shirley not wearing them out :)

Rustybolt
10-24-2008, 10:56 PM
I've rum my own shop and did contract work repairing hydraulic cylinders. I have broken every import vice made except YUASA. Other than YUASA I can only recomend U.S. made vices. I have never broken a Wilton.

macona
10-24-2008, 11:01 PM
Basically we are going to have 12 4x8 work benches. Two vices per bench. I think 4" is probably big enough, medium duty. I would rather not have a swivel base as they always seem to swivel when you dont want it to. Hammering/anvil would probably be useful but not necessary. Dont care where they are made as long as they have a better fit and finish than the ones at HF.

I will have to pop on down to Sears and take a look at what they have.

I did look at Grizzly and the vises they have there are identical to the ones at HF. I am thinking about doing half the table a regular bench vise and the other half one of the parrot vises. I missed one at a swap meet. They look like they would be pretty handy. http://www.grizzly.com/products/Parrot-Vise-/H3302

There used to be a swivel head vise that was imported from china that was pretty good. Good finish, although most of it was bondo which flaked off when it got hit. My dad bought a couple of them. Much better made than the current version. I think they were around $45 about 10 years ago.

This is my main vise at home. No swivel and it works just fine:

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/DSC02593.jpg

ckelloug
10-25-2008, 12:42 AM
I've seen a few surplus mill vices over at hgrindustrialsurplus in ohio. They do have all sorts of surplus machinery at reasonable looking prices. If you're buying a truckload of machinery, buying it there and paying for a truck to bring it up to Portland might actually be a bargain. I've not done business with them (and no association) but they have some nice stuff I could drool over the 30,000 items in the online catalog all day.

I know this isn't very helpful on vices but I wish you the best. I used to live off of Allen in Beaverton. The first 24 hour Starbucks is there isn't it?

Regards,
Cameron

JRouche
10-25-2008, 01:13 AM
Dont forget to look for Sears coupons too. Everything is on sale at some point with them. JR

macona
10-25-2008, 01:23 AM
I know this isn't very helpful on vices but I wish you the best. I used to live off of Allen in Beaverton. The first 24 hour Starbucks is there isn't it?

Regards,
Cameron

HGR has lots of goodies, but I dont want project machines... Well.. Not for the shop at least! ;)

Funny, TechShop is off Allen in Beaverton as well.

10100 SW Allen Blvd, 97005

I live a couple blocks north of the Nike World Campus.

Yep, it was the first 24Hr starbucks. Not anymore. They now close at midnight I think. I think there is one that is 24Hrs at Tanasborne Mall.

-Jerry

rockrat
10-25-2008, 07:39 AM
I troll Craigs list for all sorts of stuff. Vise? Here is a good one, youll love the paint job.

http://images.craigslist.org/116122144ZZZZZZZZZ8ak188c32ba73ae10d8.jpg

http://images.craigslist.org/110129143ZZZZZZZZZ8ake68d648c24341efb.jpg

Now I will say that it is a big chunk of iron. But it ranks up there with all of the other "Fresh coat of paint" fleebay like products. First thing I'd have to do is get the paint off. That would cost me as much as what the fellow wants for it.

rock~

Your Old Dog
10-25-2008, 08:20 AM
I use this one and really like it as it's very versatile and if I want to bind it down, it holds. Cost me about $60.00 at Home Depot. The particular version I have has a lock for both rotation directions. I did manage to bend the screw in one using a 4 foot cheater bar trying to make the vice do press duty :D

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g7062.jpg

Ries
10-25-2008, 11:00 AM
Macona, you might try the guys up at Equipment Sales and Surplus, in Kent.
They are the factory outlet for all WHM group tools- Jet, Wilton, Powermatic, and Performax.
When the main Jet Warehouse was right next door, they had more deals, but they still get in all the orphans, damaged in shipping, weird returns, and demo models for those 4 lines of tools.
They usually have everything from $50 Taiwan vises to 500lb made in america Wiltons that cost close to 2 grand new.
They also often have saws, milling machines, lathes, sanders, and many other machine tools from all 4 lines.

Sometimes great deals- I have gotten some trade show demo machines that were basically new, for very low prices.

http://www.equipmentsalesandsurplus.com/

Anyway, call em up- they might be able to put together a package deal for you.

barts
10-25-2008, 11:11 AM
I use this one and really like it as it's very versatile and if I want to bind it down, it holds. Cost me about $60.00 at Home Depot. The particular version I have has a lock for both rotation directions. I did manage to bend the screw in one using a 4 foot cheater bar trying to make the vice do press duty :D

http://www.grizzly.com/images/pics/jpeg288/g/g7062.jpg

I have one of these (well, very similar) as well; the hot ticket according to a friend of mine is to machine a pocket for a tapered roller bearing in the front; this apparently makes it a much nicer unit. Now that I have a big lathe, I'm running out of excuses for putting that off.

Alistair Hosie
10-25-2008, 01:15 PM
Why not buy used on ebay I bought a record vice new price nearly 800 and paid about 30 for it in near perfect condition it's abig one though I have a few smaller second hand ones.They don't seem to hold their prices in the UK keep looking best of luck Alistair

radkins
10-25-2008, 01:23 PM
Northern tool has a huge selection of Wilton vises at really good prices.

www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/NTESearch?storeId=6970&N=0&Ntk=All&Ntt=vise&Nty=1&D=vise&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Dx=mode+matchallpartial

Frank Ford
10-25-2008, 02:06 PM
If Portland is planning to set up anything like the Menlo Park TechShop, you might consider a fleet of fairly cheap new vises for the light duty work tables, and get a few heavy ones for the metal fabrication area.

Menlo Park TechShop bought the some really cheap Harbor Freight ones for the work tables, and they seem to be holding up well in that use.

lazlo
10-25-2008, 02:07 PM
The Craftsman vises look a lot like Wilton stuff.

Most of the Craftsman and Wilton stuff is the same stuff you get at Harbor Freight, with a Craftsman badge and a higher price.

For quantity 24, you might call up Enco and see if they'll cut you a deal on a set of Wilton USA vises (they still make them, last time I checked).

Like Bruce, I picked up a Record 6" bench vise when they went out of business, and it's superb, but that was a long time ago (3 - 4 years), so you'll probably have a hard time finding 24 of them. Note that Irwin bought the dregs of Record and sells crappy Chicom vises with the Record name that are a joke. It's easy to spot them -- they're a puke green color (Alistair would be tempted ;) ).

dp
10-25-2008, 10:17 PM
Just got my hands on the new Enco flyer and they're advertising Wilton 4" bench vises for $49.00 and free UPS for orders over $99. That could be a money saver.

macona
10-25-2008, 10:21 PM
You got a stock number on those vises from Enco?

dp
10-25-2008, 10:47 PM
Enco Wilton vise numbers.



4" - SG891-8966 - $49.00
5" - SG891-8965 - $59.99
6" - SG891-8964 - $79.99
8" - SG891-8963 - $119.99

macona
10-26-2008, 12:05 AM
Thanks. I think I might go with those.

Funny, you enter the code for the 5" and you get this as a desctription:

5"JAW W 6"PAD 2400OPM SHOP VISE & CAR POLISHER

Sounds like the ultimate in multi purpose tooling!

dp
10-26-2008, 12:14 AM
In the flyer if you buy the vise you get a free polisher. Probably worth the price, too.

macona
10-26-2008, 02:56 AM
Wonder if I will get 24 polishers too...

dp
10-26-2008, 03:00 AM
Got to be a way to have polisher races with them like they do with belt sanders. http://www.nebsra.org/

lazlo
10-26-2008, 10:01 AM
I noticed on the Wholesale Tool sales flyer that Wilton is still selling their "Tradesman" (Made in USA) series of vises. The 6" Tradesman is on sale for $400 -- about 5 times more than the Chinese Wilton :p

dp
10-26-2008, 11:13 AM
They all seem to have a lifetime warranty, though. At least all the ones I looked at did.

lazlo
10-26-2008, 11:38 AM
Yep, it's advertised right next to the Made in USA emblem -- Lifetime Warranty.

oldtiffie
10-26-2008, 06:43 PM
Yep, it's advertised right next to the Made in USA emblem -- Lifetime Warranty.

I don't know how it is in the US, but Warranty and Guarantee have different meanings/definitions and can have conditions attached.

Some try to insert "weasel words" but the Regulators here are very good - mostly - at sorting that out.

If classified as a "consumer" item here, it must be "of merchantable quality" and "fit for purpose" and must not be "abused" to qualify for the cost refund or replacement (usually at the discretion of the "buyer" ("customer").

These may or may not apply in full or in part to items that are for a HSM shop.

Most suppliers will honour a warranty here as the cost of replacement of a pre-determined number of "faulty" items is built into the cost/price structure.

This applies if the item is sourced from anywhere - OZ, USA, China, UK etc.

If I don't know the dealer from whom I buy stuff (very small as that is a pretty small pool) I ask about the warranty before I buy it and make a guess as to the risk before I buy it.

lazlo
10-26-2008, 07:41 PM
I don't know how it is in the US, but Warranty and Guarantee have different meanings/definitions and can have conditions attached.

That's a good question Mick -- Kurt vises have lifetime warranties too, but I wonder if that covers damage from using the vise as an arbor press? :)

By the way, my Record vise has a lifetime warranty too, but that turned out to be the lifetime of Record, UK, not the vice :D

dp
10-26-2008, 07:48 PM
That's a good question Mick -- Kurt vises have lifetime warranties too, but I wonder if that covers damage from using the vise as an arbor press? :)

By the way, my Record vise has a lifetime warranty too, but that turned out to be the lifetime of Record, UK, not the vice :D

I have a Record vise imported from England and while building a new woodworking workbench top it got dropped and landed on a corner of the faceplate. Broke like an egg shell but not unexpected. I tried to find a replacement and discovered Record was no more. That was a sad day.

lazlo
10-26-2008, 08:02 PM
Dennis, you might try talking to Irwin customer service. They own the Record name now -- you might at least be able to get a Chicom Record to replace it?

oldtiffie
10-27-2008, 04:17 AM
Lazlo,

given that the title of the thread is "Source for decent vises?", are you suggesting that Dennis should indulge in an "indecent" (read: "Chinese") vise?

If you don't mind - this is "family" show and women and kids might be watching!!!

I must be getting old as all I am concerned about now-a-days (and for the last ????? years) is a vise for my shop.

It was different when I was younger - very. "Indecent" (according to some others and "decent" according to me) was a pursuit that I indulged myself in quite a bit.

"Vice" and "work-bench" in my lexicon then had nothing at all to do with an Engineering work-shops but trying to engineer "indecent" outcomes from allegedly indecent vices was given a lot of attention.

Now what were we saying about Dennis "decent" vise?

rantbot
10-27-2008, 04:42 AM
Enco Wilton vise numbers.



4" - SG891-8966 - $49.00

This is obviously the prize of the batch here on this thread. Except that the Enco online catalog doesn't say that it has anything to do with Wilton, and can't even manage a photo - of the vise or the polisher. This is the best Mr Computer can do - 4"JAW W 6"PAD 2400OPM SHOP VISE & CAR POLISHER. All of which leaves rather a lot unsaid.

What's puzzled me for a while is just what it is about vises which turns so many people into 12 year old jerks. Guys who would never dream of using their pliers as hammers, or their screwdrivers as chisels, or their paint sprayers as sandblasters, seem to take positive glee in abusing their poor vises with four-foot cheater bars or whacking them with 20 pound sledges. Then of course when things break they can bitch about Chinese quality.

A vise is a tool. You use it to do certain things. You abuse it to do certain other things. The difference between use and abuse isn't the vise's fault.

Your Old Dog
10-27-2008, 05:58 AM
What's puzzled me for a while is just what it is about vises which turns so many people into 12 year old jerks. Guys who would never dream of using their pliers as hammers, or their screwdrivers as chisels, or their paint sprayers as sandblasters, seem to take positive glee in abusing their poor vises with four-foot cheater bars or whacking them with 20 pound sledges. Then of course when things break they can bitch about Chinese quality.



Since I'm the only one here that mentioned a 4 foot cheater bar let me qualify it least someone think I'm being childish.

First off, a bench vice in my opinion does not need to cost up-wards of 3-400 dollars to do what I desire of it in my shop. Any will generally work for me. Also, a 50 dollar vice is expendable to me, not a big deal as I live close to a lot of sources for $50.00 vices. Let me add, that a 50 dollar vice that needs a 4 foot cheater bar to destroy it is a damn good buy from my simple minded way of thinking. So, given that, there is no way in hell I'd be looking to dump vast sums of money into a vice when I could be buying other shop tooling. The 50 dollar vice I have now will likely last me a lifetime as when I could afford it, I bought a new 20 ton press to do what my 50 dollar vice couldn't do. Keep this in mind, for a "bench" vice, it don't need to say "Wilton-U.S.A" or "Record" on the side of it just to hold something tight enough you can't pull it free. While they may do double duty as a 20 ton press it is still an abuse of what is now, a $400 + vice?

Tools have always been just in-animate objects to me, not something to feel sorry for or to be held in higher esteem then fellow human beings. Some people are more interested in collecting "fine" tools then using them. I never abused my camera equipment but I never kept it in deep pile lined velvet lined ebony crafted cases either. They sat on the front seat next to me ready to be pressed into service when the time required it.


I have one of these (well, very similar) as well; the hot ticket according to a friend of mine is to machine a pocket for a tapered roller bearing in the front; this apparently makes it a much nicer unit. Now that I have a big lathe, I'm running out of excuses for putting that off.

Barts, thanks for taking the time, great idea! Now to find a tapered roller bearing to fit.

To the OP I would say. The vice I pictured is all the vice a student should need. It also teaches them, they don't need a several hundred dollar work to do fine work. One that they can afford will do just fine.

oldtiffie
10-27-2008, 06:26 AM
I need at least 24 vises for work benches at work. Guessing about 4", I stopped at HF on the way home and those things are total crap.

Anyone know of a source of decent vises at a good price. Would like wiltons but I dont want to spend $500 a vise!

Above is the OP.

The vises as I understand it are for benches for Trainees in a supervised work-shop.

It seems that in the event that some parts of the shop will need heavier vises they will/may get them.

I'd guess too that where a multi-ton press or an anvil are needed that they may be provided as well.

So let's stick with that.

dp
10-27-2008, 07:58 AM
This is obviously the prize of the batch here on this thread. Except that the Enco online catalog doesn't say that it has anything to do with Wilton, and can't even manage a photo - of the vise or the polisher. This is the best Mr Computer can do - 4"JAW W 6"PAD 2400OPM SHOP VISE & CAR POLISHER. All of which leaves rather a lot unsaid.

Those numbers were not taken from any Enco online catalog. They were taken from an Enco catalog that arrived here in the mail just a few days ago. The catalog also states that if you buy the vise you get a free polisher.

Don't look in the wrong place and there's nothing left unsaid.

lazlo
10-27-2008, 02:34 PM
Keep this in mind, for a "bench" vice, it don't need to say "Wilton-U.S.A" or "Record" on the side of it just to hold something tight enough you can't pull it free.

Depends YOD. I've seen quite of few Chinese and Indian vises that shattered from normal clamping pressure, because they're typically made with whatever the dudes could shovel into the foundry ladle. When you look at the broken "cast iron" it's very porous and uneven.

Remember that hilarious video of the Indian foundry workers pouring castings wearing flip-flops and saris? They were pouring vises in that video.

In other words, you're not going to get a quality ductile iron vise for $40 with free shipping.

Scishopguy
10-27-2008, 03:22 PM
I'm with Fastrack and Wierdscience on Sears Vices. I have a six inch that I got in 1980 and have used, and abused, for everything under the sun. I got it from the Sears Surplus outlet in Jax Florida for $5. No kidding! Check to see if there is a Sears Surplus outlet anywhere near you. They regularly get pallet loads of things that they have put on sale and had left over. A friend and I bought a dozen of those vices for five bucks each and sold the ten we didn't need for $10 each. They have all the returned items and loose or broken package stuff there and sell it for a song. There were buckets of loose craftsman sockets for a quarter each. Worth looking into.

dp
10-27-2008, 03:48 PM
In other words, you're not going to get a quality ductile iron vise for $40 with free shipping.

Especially when they sweeten the deal by tossing in a free polisher.

But ductile iron is not always needed. It would make no difference here for a bench vise, for example, and even if I were to bust one every 5 years I'd still be able to replace them for 50 years at $49.00 for the cost of one good ductile vise.

lazlo
10-27-2008, 04:37 PM
In other words, you're not going to get a quality ductile iron vise for $40 with free shipping.
But ductile iron is not always needed. It would make no difference here for a bench vise

Ask Torker if he agrees with you Dennis :)

POS vise snapped...big crash...arrrghhh! (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=20848)


Got my excuse to buy a new Kurt vice.
The cheap Chinese 5" swivel base "Kurt" (ya ok) copy just snapped...buggered my piece...buggered three new inserts @$17 ea.
I be REAL frikkin happy
Had to have the pieces out for tommorrow morning.
The whole cast in nut assembly snapped right off and it's junk now.
Was getting braver with the doc....had it cutting good @ .090 when it let loose.
Ordering a Kurt in the morning.
It'll be my luck that they won't be on sale right now too.
Oh...I guess this is a warning...
Russ

dp
10-27-2008, 04:40 PM
Ask Torker if he agrees with you Dennis :)

POS vise snapped...big crash...arrrghhh! (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=20848)

Yah - but we're talking about bench vises here. In the case of machinist vises I'd still last 20 years if I bought one clone every 5 years ;)

lazlo
10-27-2008, 04:46 PM
Dennis, if you search on "vise broke" there are dozens of hits, even Frank :)

Bottom line: it's easy to snap a vise made of Chinese Cheese:


Well then, on this point at least, maybe I'm a comparatively quick study. A few years ago I managed to crack my Chinese 5" vise plumb in half, looked all over town for a decent new replacement, and ended up ordering a new 6" Wilton machinist vise from Enco. It seemed expensive then, but by now I've forgotten the price and I'm really glad I stretched my credit card a bit at the time. . .


My 6 in Wilton, rebadged SNAP-ON on with swivel, has been taking all the abuse I can throw at it.... I pound, rivet, heat, and abuse the thing as a gunsmith, and it takes everything I can throw at it as a Gunsmith/Heavy Equipment repairman.
I have blown up a cheap Chinese vise in less than a week... Do not expect a 6 in vise that costs less less than ~$350.00 new, to hold up.... Old used English/US iron is out there tho...

dp
10-27-2008, 04:50 PM
Dennis, if you search on "vise broke" there are dozens of hits, even Frank :)

Bottom line: it's easy to snap a vise made of Chinese Cheese:

Not the way I use them. I'm a home shop hobbyist for context. If I ran a shop for a living I'd buy the good stuff. If I ran a classroom I'd buy adequate stuff. Never fail to consider the context when buying tools.

I was impressed with Frank's "save" of that vise. It just may now be better than before in terms of construction, and the bolts are not likely to shear off again.

macona
10-27-2008, 06:53 PM
Above is the OP.

The vises as I understand it are for benches for Trainees in a supervised work-shop.

It seems that in the event that some parts of the shop will need heavier vises they will/may get them.

I'd guess too that where a multi-ton press or an anvil are needed that they may be provided as well.

So let's stick with that.

Something like that. These vises will be for general work tables for people working on whatever project they are doing.

Think of this place as a membership bases gym but with real machines!

applescotty
10-28-2008, 05:33 PM
Here's the page from the Enco sale catalog listing the Wilton vises (with free polisher):
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INPDFF?PMKANO=199&PMPAGE=47&PARTPG=INLMPA&PMCTLG=01

Scott

lazlo
10-28-2008, 06:45 PM
I just got a chance to look at the latest Enco sale flyer, and the Wilton "Light Duty" vise with the free polisher is the same one at Harbor Freight with the hollow ram.

Enco also has the Wilton's medium-duty bench vise on sale, which is somewhat more expensive, and probably a whole lot more durable:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/vise.gif

BadDog
10-29-2008, 02:23 AM
I have that "medium duty" import Wilton, and it is utter garbage. I would hate to see the "Light Duty".

I don't ask much from a vise; just that it not break when stressed, and that the jaw have minimal wiggle while firming up solid when tightened. That Wilton tightened on a piece of round rod (or anything not clamped on parallel sides) is about as stable as a machine on skates. The jaw never get's solid. I use that vise only when I'm going to be truly wailing on it and don't want to hurt my good vises, or when welding or heating something in close proximity. This thing isn't even deserving of the same name used for my (old) Wilton Machinist and recently acquired 5" Record. And for the record, I'm not a vise snob as I have a rotating head HF POS 5" vise that gets used all the time. At least it stops rotating when you tighten it down...

oldtiffie
10-29-2008, 06:36 AM
Oh dear me Bad Dog.

You have committed sacrilege and almost the ultimate heresy in that you questioned and insulted the good name and integrity of a famous USA icon - the Wilton vice!!!!

You had better wash your mouth out before the Inquisitors and "heavies" of the "good old American iron" school come and sort you right out!!!

But wait your turn as I'm still waiting for them here!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisitor