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madman
11-07-2008, 11:54 AM
I am having some problems with the electrical feed to my New Shop. I spent so much money and wasnt home much to oversee the construction and so on. I asked the Electrician (Rob) to install 100 amp sceptre pipe and wire for my ditch i had dug from the house to the shop, Later (some nights im home eleven or later fromwork) I look at the sceptre pipe and it looks small ?? One inch inside diameter, now im no electrical genius ,I leave my questions to Dave Coffer regarding that stuff) But i didnt think seperate wires could be run through a one inch pipe to supply my 100 amp feed that i wanted.Well can it be done> It (the ditch) is backfilled and im so pissed of with my 60 amp service going into my garage im gonna blow a vein in my large Head. LOL. Anyhow can i run seoperate wirers through this One Inch sceptre Pipe (Inside dimension is One Inch) to get my 100 amp service in my new dream shop? Thanx Mike (currently a really Mad Man)

Dawai
11-07-2008, 12:17 PM
Table 901.10.3.1 Maximum* No. Cables Available in Cable-Conduit


http://epg.modot.mo.gov/index.php?title=901.10_Preparation_of_Plans First link that popped up..

#2 used to be the smallest used for 100 amps.. I don't have a codebook handy.. it'd be a American code book anyways.
This table here on this page says you can put two #2's in a 1" pipe.. Copper.. Where is the neutral, and ground going coming from the panel feeding this service? no room..

http://www.elliottelectric.com/References/Conduit_Fill_Table.aspx This table says you can put 3 #2's in a one inch using THHN copper.. now, that'd do the neutral, if you can use the metal conduit for a ground in your locale?

MTNGUN
11-07-2008, 02:29 PM
I used 2" pvc conduit for both my service panel and also to the shop subpanel. Can't remember the wire gage but it was some honkin stuff. The pvc is not a big ticket item so why scrimp on the size ?

JoeFin
11-07-2008, 02:44 PM
http://www.elliottelectric.com/References/Conduit_Fill_Table.aspx This table says you can put 3 #2's in a one inch using THHN copper.. now, that'd do the neutral, if you can use the metal conduit for a ground in your locale?

Better off driving a ground rod at the new panel being it is a seperate building and being underground conduit, I'm sure it is PVC

fasto
11-07-2008, 06:16 PM
Better off driving a ground rod at the new panel being it is a seperate building and being underground conduit, I'm sure it is PVC
The US NEC as interpreted in my area requires that a "subpanel" have the ground brought as a separate conductor to the main panel.
No local ground rod is allowed.

MTNGUN
11-07-2008, 07:54 PM
The US NEC as interpreted in my area requires that a "subpanel" have the ground brought as a separate conductor to the main panel.
No local ground rod is allowed.

Same here.

Dawai
11-07-2008, 08:07 PM
There again.. his area of the world may still have a three wire service.. (two hots and a neutral-ground wire)

I still look around when I see the "green" bond screw in a panel and neutrals and grounds on the same bus bar..

That'd do it too Mike.. Is Audrey better?

J Tiers
11-07-2008, 09:19 PM
Anyone who maxes out on the wire size for conduit is asking for the pull from hell........ especially on a long run, and double especially if there are a max number of bends. If you leave ample room, it gets a LOT easier, it can be upgraded later, and it really doesn't cost much extra compared to digging etc.

madman
11-07-2008, 09:32 PM
I didnt buy the Sceptre plastic Pipe for the underground feed my stupid electrician did. I was out every day working for a iving. Im still so pissed of at him. hes lucky he hasnt been around lately. I was told that 3 number 3 wires and a ground will fit if you carefully stuff them evenly in any ideas again Thanx Guys Im quite pissed off.

J Tiers
11-07-2008, 10:22 PM
Well 3 #3 THWN seems to be OK, and that in 75deg C IS in fact 100A.......

It's the minimum, minimum possible, but it IS 100A.

Now the ground wire has to fit in there too, if this is a split 240V feed.

Dawai
11-07-2008, 10:28 PM
my stupid electrician did

For youse who don't know Madman, he has these long lanky arms you'd hate to box with.. He could hit you where you couldn't touch him..

Be nice to the "Stupid" electrician Mike, he might have child support and have a reason he used the one inch.. *like he stole it and sold it to you? (not that I'd stir the pot or anything, it might be a UNION brother up there..) Them Canuck electricians can work in the USA, but we can't work up there.. unless we prove our INDIAN blood, they have a cross the border agreement for feather heads.

doctor demo
11-07-2008, 11:42 PM
Mike, check a curent code book. I only have an old one so things may have changed, but if you run two # 2 conductors your ground only has to be a # 6 in copper and can be bare. Also the netural can be a # 6.
So two #2's a bare #6 and an insulated #6 should go in a 1''trade size conduit without exceeding the maximum fill percentage.

Steve

rdfeil
11-08-2008, 01:37 AM
Hi Mike,

All of the above is great info and correct. I just did the calcs on your 100 amp feed and the answer is 3 #3 and a #6 ground will fit in a 1 inch EMT conduit. Your conduit, I think, is plastic but you said it is 1 inch ID so it would basically be the same. The above wire specs would be the minimum I would use for a sub feed. You could down size the neutral as mentioned above, but I would not unless you just cannot get the wires through. With all of the new switching power supply type equipment (computers, TV's, VFD's etc.), we are seeing an enormous number of neutral failures in older homes and offices. This is caused by harmonic currents on the neutral from the switching supply. This might not be a problem for you but why take the risk. How long is the run and how many bends are in it (# of 90's, 45's etc). If it is a fairly short straight pull you won't have a problem, if longer and more bends use a LOT of pulling lube or you will hate yourself. I realize that the ditch is already backfilled but now would be the time to dig and install larger conduit. If you decide to go that way leave the 1 inch in place for future stuff (phone, cable TV, computer network cables etc).

If it were me I would have a SERIOUS talk with the electrician boob :mad: and make him explain himself and fix the problem at his cost. You clearly told him what you wanted so it was his responsibility to do it right and find out what is right if he didn't know. When I am hired to do a job I am expected to do it right and to code if required. If I don't know how to do something I tell the customer up front and if they are willing, I will find out how to do it and quote a price, if they are not or I find out I really can't then I respectfully pass on the work. A mad customer is worse by far than no customer :o .

Keep us posted, please.

Robin

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 07:15 AM
The US NEC as interpreted in my area requires that a "subpanel" have the ground brought as a separate conductor to the main panel.
No local ground rod is allowed.

You would be WRONG - Check your NEC before inserting foot.

As long as the Main Service is less then 1000 amps and 600 volts and the building (garage) is "Detached"

It will be in the Italic print foot notes if your using the soft bound version of the NEC or Brown Italic Print foot notes on the hard bound version of the NEC.

And just for Clarity the 'N' in "NEC" stands for "National". So when you say "in my area" you completely lose me on that one. I've been in almost every state of the union engineering and supervising the installation of Electrical Control Systems and the first thing I ask the local code authority is "Do you supersede the NEC". because in some places they can and do. Like Florida and Minnesota for a very long time would not allow Romex. California was the only place I was caught and it was a stupid side job at that.


Mike, check a curent code book. I only have an old one so things may have changed, but if you run two # 2 conductors your ground only has to be a # 6 in copper and can be bare. Also the netural can be a # 6.
So two #2's a bare #6 and an insulated #6 should go in a 1''trade size conduit without exceeding the maximum fill percentage.

Steve

Steve

He might also have a problem with that statement as well

He does need to run a “Neutral Conductor” and given the application of the panel, (panel service / rec. loads) de-rating of the neutral conductor is not allowed. In addition, given the likelihood of the addition of “Veriable Frequency Drives – VFD/VSD” and the ensuing Harmonic Distortion caused by such devices, derating of the Neutral Conductor is NOT Allowed. (see NEC section 220 – 10(b) and 10(c) )

The Good News is his local electrician was correct and You Can run 3 #2awg conductors in 1" PVC and re-establish ground (ground rod / water bond) at the panel.

Does Mike have a reason to be pissed - Sure he does.

Given the cost difference between 1" pvc and 1 1/2" or 2" pvc, who in their right mind runs 100% fill. The guy is probably NEW or "Side-Jobbing" to feed his family and is keeping it "Tight and By the Book". His skills as a contractor can certainly use improvement as he could have listed "Up-grades" (such as 2" PVC feeder conduit") and their subsequent cost in the contract

Dawai
11-08-2008, 08:55 AM
The guy is probably NEW or "Side-Jobbing"

And picked it up off a job.. for nothing.. which is what I'd pay him.

potman
11-08-2008, 09:36 AM
Madman, what's the capacity of your main service entry panel and meter? Are you sure that you can add on a 100 amp circuit to that? Giving the electrician more credit than he is probably due could he have determined that 60 amp was the maximum that can legally be installed so that is what he did install?

I'm doing something similar and in our neck of the woods I am told that I have to have 4 wires (2 hot, neutral and ground ) to the subpanel. Plus I have to have 2 ground rods or 1 20' length of rebar buried in the concrete footing to be used as a ground. In fact the building inspector virtually forced us to put in the ground rebar when he inspected the footings.

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 09:49 AM
And picked it up off a job.. for nothing.. which is what I'd pay him.

Depending on which state and if he has a signed contract he could and would end up owning your home !

Being I have Electrical Contractors License in California and Washington I know a little bit about “How it Works”, which is why I even posted a reply to all the dis-information being posted on this subject.

Being you claim to know Mike and obviously consider him a friend, I thought it might be important for him to have accurate information prior to him getting into trouble with a contract that might end up as a “Lean on his home, and or, the possible loss of his home”

When a contract reads “Work performed in accordance with All Applicable Codes National and Local” it means just that. Not "this is what I would like to see", unless of course the size and type of materials are specifically spelled out in contractually accepted “Design Criteria” and or the final “Proposal”

Let me clarify once again - In most States the contractor can place a lean on your property if you fail to pay him. He can also demand payment through the sale of your home

In most States you MUST provide the original contractor the right to effect repairs - that is "IF" he did any thing wrong

J Tiers
11-08-2008, 10:02 AM
JoeFin..... Say WHAT?

Local AHJs CAN and DO NEARLY ALWAYS have codes that are different from the latest NEC.... at least for a while. It is a strictly voluntary act to adopt it. They would be free to write their own, but I have never heard of anywhere but Los Angeles actually doing that.

It must be re-adopted by law each time it is updated, because the law states the active version. So that an older version may still be current, years after a new one comes out of the NFPA.

Not only that, but the inspector generally has the call absolutely as to whether something is or is not acceptable, since he is the one looking at it. Inspectors differ, and it isn't THAt odd to find two different interpretations from two inspectors. usually only in details, of course....

Then also.... Detached? so?

If the SERVICE is to building #1, and the subpanel run is to another building, there can only be one bond to earth between the grounded conductor and the equipment grounding conductor (EGC, green wire) at the actual service. Normally, a subpanel is never allowed to have a bond in addition to the service.

Very often, the inspector will interpret that as meaning that any reasonably close subpanel, detached building or not, must be fed the equipment grounding conductor from the service. The argument is usually based on the idea that a short to ground must have a low resistance back to the source, and a local independent rod doesn't supply that. A short to the EGC must open the circuit protection for safety.

The service, of course, has the bond, and the grounded conductor in the service drop is continuous back to the pole and transformer. That gives a low impedance to whatever is fed from the service and uses its EGC.

If the building is "detached" enough, it may simply be required to have a separate service, which would have it's own bond. That might be the call of the inspector or the powerco.

if there is one DROP, but two "services" from it, then it's a different deal. Sometimes seen on large sprawling office/warehouse buildings where each section has a service, and a single "drop" runs along the wall of the building outside. Most places will only allow one service per structure unless of a certain size.

The lien thing is correct....... this often causes trouble when you pay the contractor but do not secure a lien waiver, in which case the unpaid suppliers all file liens on your house, so you get to pay for the materials twice........ once to the deadbeat contractor, and once to the unpaid suppliers. A lien waiver simply means the contractor agrees to pay for materials, and to "hold you harmless" in the face of any claims.

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 10:36 AM
JoeFin..... Say WHAT?

If the SERVICE is to building #1, and the subpanel run is to another building, there can only be one bond to earth between the grounded conductor and the equipment grounding conductor (EGC, green wire) at the actual service. Normally, a subpanel is never allowed to have a bond in addition to the service.


You SOBs – I normally get $120 per Hr plan checking, and now you guys want it for FREE.

Ok here we go - I'm Easy

Article 250-32 Two or more Buildings or structures Supplied from a Common Service. (Service being the box with the meter on it)

Subsection (d) Disconnecting Means located in Separate Building or Structure on the same premises,.Note (1) The connection of the grounded circuit conductor (Neutral Conductor) to the grounding electrode at a separate building or structure shall not be made

This means you do NOT bond the Neutral Conductor at the Separate Building. – A common mistake

J Tiers
11-08-2008, 10:39 AM
This means you do NOT bond the Neutral Conductor at the Separate Building. – A common mistake

I believe that is what I just posted.......... the bond is ONLY at the service, in ONE place.

The point is that a remote separate ground rod on a subpanel will NOT be bonded to the grounded conductor (neutral) and so will not have a metallic connection to the source unless an equipement grounding conductor is run with the wires to the subpanel. A short to a separate rod and EGC system may not open the branch circuit protection.

Some inspectors do not want a remote subpanel equipment grounding conductor to have a ground rod in addition to the one at the service (regardless of the EGC not being bonded there) considering that ground currents may flow from the subpanel rod to the service rod through the EGC that runs between them, and may degrade the service ground rod by corrosion.

Others may actually require a rod on the EGC despite it being run back to the service from the remote subpanel......

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 10:46 AM
. If the building is "detached" enough, it may simply be required to have a separate service, which would have it's own bond. That might be the call of the inspector or the powerco.


OOOhhhh….. $.09 / Kw Agricultural rate, the Holy Grail of New Shop installs. Great if you can pull it off, but other then that the only time I see more then 1 Service in a “Single Occupancy” Building are 480v system over 4000 amps.

doctor demo
11-08-2008, 02:16 PM
You would be WRONG - Check your NEC before inserting foot.




Steve

He might also have a problem with that statement as well

He does need to run a “Neutral Conductor” and given the application of the panel, (panel service / rec. loads) de-rating of the neutral conductor is not allowed. In addition, given the likelihood of the addition of “Veriable Frequency Drives – VFD/VSD” and the ensuing Harmonic Distortion caused by such devices, derating of the Neutral Conductor is NOT Allowed. (see NEC section 220 – 10(b) and 10(c) )

The Good News is his local electrician was correct and You Can run 3 #2awg conductors in 1" PVC and re-establish ground (ground rod / water bond) at the panel.

Does Mike have a reason to be pissed - Sure he does.




Joe, I am sure glad You could straighten this out. I guess I'll have to re-visit My sub pannel installation.

I guess I will also have to go and get a new N E C book, as mine does not have a 220-10(C).

Thank goodness I suggested Mike check ''a current'' book.

Steve:o

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 03:05 PM
Joe, I am sure glad You could straighten this out. I guess I'll have to re-visit My sub pannel installation.

Steve:o

Steve - You hit the "Nail on the Head" when you said "Sub-panel"

Everyone here is referencing "Service Equipment" and once it leaves the "Box with the Meter" it is no longer "Service Equipment" but rather a "Branch Feeder" to a "panel board"

Yes I know it is an obscure footnote to a sub-section but the installation as described by the original poster is a NEC legal installation. I'm not going to go into the code book and quote artical, sub-section, and paragraph right now but I have done the exact same installation many times and have had it pass every time without question.

Unless of course the original poster has now run into trouble with his electrician and needs to know specifically. Currently I'm in the middle of 5 - 600 lines a G-code and it's giving me fits

I was also a U.L. panel shop. Try calling U.L. and ask them for a difinition. 18 yrs ago it was $90 a paragraph.

Dawai
11-08-2008, 04:30 PM
Depending on which state and if he has a signed contract he could and would end up owning your home
Pretty obvious this "electrician" is either not licensed or not qualified. He said he was pulling #6.. for a 100 amp service?? huh?? I talked to Mike on the phone before this post started.

I've never had any trouble passing jobs either with the inspectors.

I had seen quite a few jobs where the Sub standard contractor had to hire a licensed and insured contractor to come in and redo his work and design. I was that guy for a long time who got to fix others mistakes. Some electricians learn how by burning down buildings for years till they learn how "not to". Let someone get killed on a job, here comes the hammer and the judgement.
I still laugh about a local car dealership saving money by allowing a jackleg to wire in the new gas pumps. (I was underbid) they turned on the building lights and it all exploded into flame.. no seal offs, no explosion proof flex.. nada.. just wp seal tite.. It was a local inspector that passed that job. You should've seen all the Nissans burned to the ground. I could not believe the insurance company paid off. The fire department must have had their eyes shut.

You can quote all the NECA codebooks you want, local building inspectors rule the roost. They sometimes require things not in the book. You must know the locality you are working in. Right or wrong, want to argue with them, prepare to lose money and time. Most of the time the inspectors are young, hired for political reasons, not electrical knowledge.

I know Mike, I'd say he's going to own the electricians hand tools if he is not careful when he sets them down. I've took a few electricians tools too over the years. Did you know if you take a man's tools he makes a living with he can sue you for lost income? Unless you have a lawsuit ready of your own against him.

You don't mess with electricity.. PEOPLE are responsible for their actions.. Courts see to it.

Personal note:
I'm RAT-Trained/Recruited UNION/Licensed Our local working agreement states if you make a mistake, you can fix it on "YOUR OWN UNPAID TIME". Union Education is the main reason more buildings don't burn down.
Unions have their good points too.. NOW some of my "brothers are so damn lazy you have to draw a circle around their feet to tell if they are moving".

J Tiers
11-08-2008, 06:28 PM
#6? 100A? That's about 75A wiring, if 90C wire is used, which it won't have been.

Time to ask to see his license, and if he is NOT licensed, and represented himself AS licensed, you might just NOT have to pay........



The US NEC as interpreted in my area requires that a "subpanel" have the ground brought as a separate conductor to the main panel.
No local ground rod is allowed.

The NEC for years has actually required a local rod for detached buildings...... but has allowances all over it for "objectionable currents" and considerations for the local AHJ.......

Sounds like the AHJ has made decisions in your various cases.......


You can quote all the NECA codebooks you want, local building inspectors rule the roost. They sometimes require things not in the book. You must know the locality you are working in. Right or wrong, want to argue with them, prepare to lose money and time.

yep...... and the NEC says so, too. National it may be, but it has to be written into the local law, which governs WHICH edition of the NEC applies locally, IF ANY.

JoeFin
11-08-2008, 06:38 PM
99.9999% of what is in the NEC has been adopted nearly word for word into State Law for the State having jurisdiction. Go check your local Law Library. They will have NEC code books dating back almost to the 1st one issued – Right next to the State’s Health and Safety Code. Very little is changed and more then once I’ve seen inspectors called onto the carpet for imposing “Stop Work Orders” without proper authority.

Back during the early 90s the Engineering Firm I was employed by oversaw all the construction all across the country for a handful of Corporations, like Mervin’s, Macy’s, Ross Dress for Less, Best Buy, Circuit city, and a few others. Some of these Corps we’re building 80 – 100 stores a year – what a head ache!!

God did I hate those construction inspections. They would want to argue – I would show them in the Design Criteria, or NEC where they missed the boat, and their Boss would end up taking me out to lunch offering me some thing to over look it.

Reason being the Corporations could not depend on the Local Code Authority to do the job.

Point was when I wrote letters of “Non-Compliance” or “Orders of Stop Payment” and the occasional “Request for Liquidated Damages” I ALWAYS backed it up with Article, Sub-section, and Paragraph of the NEC, and never once did I not get paid for my Construction Inspection ($5000.00) or my return trip. BTW: as per our contract my return trip was $1500.00 per day – minimum!

I’ve bankrupted more then my share of 1 shot Wanna-Be General Contractors who call in South-of-the-Boarder Sub-Contractors and labor.

Oh ya – your back East – Remember FRUCON

I put them under too !!


SMUD boosts expected price of new power plant

Difficulties with the power plant project became evident when SMUD fired construction manager Fru-Con Construction Corp. on Feb. 11. The utility had paid out $79.3 million of a $108.1 million contract to Fru-Con.

SMUD signed direct contracts with Fru-Con's subcontractors to complete the construction. KW Construction was the largest, with a contract covering construction of electrical, switchyard control and administration buildings. SMUD also signed independent contracts for fire protection, heat tracing, insulation, mechanical and electrical work.
http://www.bizjournals.com/sacramento/stories/2005/06/13/daily8.html

Dawai
11-09-2008, 10:35 AM
Hey, I remember working around FruCon..

They didn't make much a hour, so they worked lots of them.. I was waiting on them to set in and bolt down a pump.. Along about 3 or so in the afternoon they brought the pump on the site, sat it next to the pad where it piped in..

About six hours or more before they'd be back to set it in place they told me, smiling. (job had to run)

I tore open the crate, wired it up right there in the box, checked rotation, tied in the 4/20 controls and went home.

You should've heard the noise over that the next day.. BUT, you see.. I had this lil redhead living with me with great big hooters.. and I didn't care much about what they said. Ahh the games.. Olin Chemical gave them a spot to build a office and warehouse.. They liked em.. cheap..

J Tiers
11-09-2008, 10:56 AM
Say what you want, Joe.....

if you are working for a large Corp., it is one thing, you are bigger than the local folks, and can run over them.

If the local guy gives trouble, have a VP call the mayor, and like magic problems will disappear..... the mayor knows that the Corp can magically vanish in a few years... same deal as when the 'temporary" tax abatements become front and center again when the Corp decides which facilities to move or close, and get renewed as a condition of staying. It's about money.

But if you regularly work in the area on normal jobs, you have better believe that the LOCAL jurisdiction controls what is or is not allowable, the inspector is the judge of that, and the latest NEC may NOT be called out yet.

JoeFin
11-09-2008, 11:57 AM
Don’t have a problem with Large Corps at all. In fact I’m working for 1 of the biggest right now.

The problem with Fru-Con was they sued their way in (lowest bidder tossed out for not having a clue) and then wanted to make up a 15% difference by whipping the work force.

And if that wasn’t bad enough – they would slip faulty designs past SMUD for approval. The guys out in the field would tell them “It Will Not Work as Drawn” and Fru-Con’s management would tell them install it as per plan or be replaced (get Fired). Before the guys were even finished with the install, here would come the same Fru-Con manager with the Head of SMUD’s construction division, blaming the design Fru-Con drew, and the workmen for not catching it. Then Fru-Con would charge big bucks to fix it!

The local Union paid and placed several engineers on the job as Journeymen Wiremen to document all the abuses of the contract by Fru-Con.

Then handed over all the documentation to the Board of Directors of SMUD

Yep – good Ol’ Fru-Con. Sued their way in, and got sued for $90 Million on their way out.

derekm
11-09-2008, 12:26 PM
....– they would slip faulty designs past SMUD for approval. The guys out in the field would tell them “It Will Not Work as Drawn” and Fru-Con’s management would tell them install it as per plan or be replaced (get Fired). Before the guys were even finished with the install, here would come the same Fru-Con manager with the Head of SMUD’s construction division, blaming the design Fru-Con drew, and the workmen for not catching it. Then Fru-Con would charge big bucks to fix it!...

I 've seen that trick done where the clients engineer (in SMUDs position) had been in on the game. i.e. a faulty design approved or faulty info supplied by the client or a change in spec. The contractor is paid to fix it and part of price of the fix went to the clients engineer... This was not an unknown practice at a certain well known American owned car company.
A couple years later I saw all of the car companies engineers names I knew in a national newpaper... They were eating porridge soon afterwards.

Dawai
11-09-2008, 01:33 PM
Redlined drawings is why $125k a year instrument techs work for $24k a year engineers. I can remember saying more than once, do you want it to work, or hooked up like the prints? The employer has to be trained to respond..

Nobody hears about the engineering errors, they are called "electrical errors" and no blame is put on anyone except the laid off electricians. They normally charge back changes to the drawings for enough to pay the young guys salary. AND they call the IT from 10 states away for the next job. I finally got tired of living in a motel and a airplane.

What is ugly, if the lead dog drags up and takes them redlined drawings with him? Bad day for the company. Even worse, when the bench tech quits before his instruments are checked out.. You can stand there all day with a hart-communicator and it won't help if the instrument was not calibrated to standards. I've had to take a wally box and climb a skid more than once. (I fell in love with the revolution where you could stand in the nice warm DCS room and verify landings and locations of instruments with a communicator.)

I Seen a guy who could quote jobs based on the weight of the drawings submitted.. He was good. He had a BMW and a young wife with implants. Dat wadd'n you was it Joe?

darryl
11-09-2008, 04:09 PM
Not going to enter the fray regarding regulations, etc. Whew!

I will suggest though to coat the inside of the conduit with baby powder, either by blowing it in or vacuuming from the other end till powder comes through. This will make it a lot easier to pull the wires in. You can also vauum in a pull cord by tying one end to a makeshift piston- just a wad of cloth or something. I hope you dont' have ANY corners to pull the wire around. Don't tape the wires together, except maybe at the very beginning, and don't let any twisting go on as the wires are being pulled in.

JoeFin
11-09-2008, 04:40 PM
Redlined drawings is why $125k a year instrument techs work for $24k a year engineers.

That is exactly why I'm working as an Instrament Tech now


I Seen a guy who could quote jobs based on the weight of the drawings submitted.. He was good. He had a BMW and a young wife with implants. Dat wadd'n you was it Joe?

My Wife doesn't have implants

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/cindy-car003-1.jpg


and I drive an F250

I used to joke a lot when they handed me the prints about "weight" - "Mama needs a new pair of shoes", ect, ect... but in private it was line by line old school method of bidding jobs. Margins and Labor rates were the only factors computed. Hrs and Materials were line by line off the prints


David....

According to the 2008 NEC we were both wrong

I looked it up on line last night and what that kid did with 2ea #2awgs and a de-rated #6 Neutral is what AI web site (inspector's website) is suggesting

That sure isn't going to last very long in the code book because it's recipe for disaster.

madman
11-09-2008, 09:03 PM
One Electricians Truck, and a set of tools. Cheap???

JoeFin
11-09-2008, 09:42 PM
One Electricians Truck, and a set of tools. Cheap???

So did the guy have a reason for what he did?

We've been speculating for days here - lets hear the "Rest of the Story"

madman
11-10-2008, 09:46 PM
Well he currently isnt answering my Phone calls. Allthough i know he has a cell phone. Also his friend Roger who hooked me up with this clown isnt answering his calls either. I just have to laugh. Considering im no electrician im soon to become one. LOL The new laws state electrical work must be allowed only with a permit and subject to two inspections i think> ? I had one allready but at that time i never even thought about the sceptre pipe diamete. ZIm gonna sic my Wife on them LOl God elp them.

JoeFin
11-11-2008, 08:22 AM
Go by the inspector's office and see what he has to say

Most states allow the home owner to pull permits / and or even finish the work

Dawai
11-11-2008, 10:46 AM
Pretty much take the list of wire, ie: 2 #2 thhns..One #6 thhn jacketed, one #6 bare (All stranded wire so it will be flexible) with you and get it okayed by the inspector Mike.. Before you pull. Tell him what has happened, what you asked the guy to do, what he did. He'll see him again. If you can't touch him in court, or can't get it fixed, he will get even for you, trust me. Payback is a bitch.

You will need help, I'd suggest a quarter inch rope being pulled in. Yellow 77, or poly water as a lubricant. Keep it wet, make sure you swab the pipe out as you pull the rope in to get any mud out of the pipe.. A small rock or kink will ruin this pull. Measuring, add at least 5% for twist.. it probably will be cut off.. but better long than short.. OK? If you don't have a fish tape to pull in that rope, do a compressed air and knotted hankie on a string and blow it through, or vacuum it.. OK?
Dressing it on the end of the rope.. first braid a loop on the rope.. then strip about a foot back on the wire, clip all but about four of the strands, fold them over the loop and flatten them pretty tight.. do each conductor like this.. once you got them all on the loop.. make sure you take some tape and wrap them so they don't come unwound.. and point the end. this is important.. You'll lose a tad of wire and a roll of tape perhaps but it'll be on there on the other end..

I'm still not feeling too well.. no fair asking me to come visit.. Plus the way things are going I might not want to leave, Audrey is a helluva cook. Besides, you see the pit bulldog post? Lex can not do without me to protect him here.

Joe: My wife she being my Junior, she had a major reduction.. she had enough breast to go around for four women.. She is the first one I have met in my life that wanted to share the benifits of life instead of "become accustomed to a lifestyle she only read about with my income".
Hurrah for you and yours if you did better than it took me 40 some odd years to find. All the previous women were training on what "not to look for I guess". I should write a book for construction workers and the problems thereof. (nice car I love the Old-new stangs)

All the wire amperage tables changed about ten years back.. Shame on them. I just got them all set in my head too. I started once to tattoo the "trig tables" on my skin somewhere.. I did finally tattoo a ruler on my fore finger.. then promptly burned it near off on some Studebaker exhaust pipes..
On the mill, I almost took a inch off the finger picking up swarf.. got stitches right there I did.. It really makes you think each time you go to the bathroom with that ruler tattooed on your finger too.. HA...

I do appreciate you going out of your way to Help My friend Mike.. AND OTHERS TOO. Thank you. It's easier for a lot of people to laugh at others troubles than chip in some experience and type a reply..

madman
11-11-2008, 06:05 PM
At all the great help and tips from people i have met on this site. (xcept Mr Coffer who I had the Distinct Pleasure of meeting in Person along with his charming Wife and crazy hyperactive Dog) I was doing some stuff in my Office today when my Wife Audrey called me to come down quick. Well outside was the electrician and his helper working on my Job?? I was surprised but Pleasantly. I went out said hi offered them Beer ,Coffee. A polite no was replied. I then said thanx for coming over discussed the 3 3 wire number 8 ground idea to him ,he seemed ok with it. I was so happy. Then i took him next door to show him my dragbike and hang out with him for about 15 seconds then i quickly left them to there devices. SO ....Now afterwards I started thinking. (something i rarely do) I had called a electrical outfit , I guess the first one i called was his old electrical shop where he had apprenticed at. I didnt even know that . Well the guy there Brian was so nice to me and answered all my questions regarding electric code. Then he asked me my adress. Well with that information you find out who the permit has been issued to. I explained what had happenned to me regarding the service run i wanted. Anyhow he called me back later on gave me the current code specs on wire type and ground size allowable. Well all the sceoptres mounted up and i reckon he will be back soon to put my wire in. Its not 2.0 gauge but even 3.3 is good enough so in the future when i need more juice at least i can get it. Thanx to everyone for the Tips Thanx Mike