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sch
07-29-2003, 11:16 PM
Latest issue of Aviation Wk and Space Technology has several articles on this topic. US portion of world production of machine tools down to under 20% ('02) and headed for less than 10% in '03. Cover photo is of one of those monster multiaxis milling machines with chips like autumn leaves in windrows around it. One of the sequelae of outsourcing in manufacturing is the export of the means of production as well as the production itself. This complements an article in the WSJ last week on the difficulty in finding decent jobs (>$12/hr), that were not stultifying, by machinists and other highly skilled blue collar types when several large production facilities close in small towns. Steve

x39
07-29-2003, 11:36 PM
I find it hard to grasp that the supposedly well educated people running this nation can't (or won't) see what we're heading for. How bad will things get before something is done?

crossthreaded
07-29-2003, 11:43 PM
Gee-Wiz X39, you don't suppose such policies might cause a... "DEPRESSION". Good thing it can't happen here.

Thrud
07-30-2003, 12:44 AM
I remember a news telecast of an interview with a Boeing employee who was pissed that his Christmas bonus was ONLY $60,000. That thankless prick is lucky to have a job, let alone be lucky enough to get a bonus.

Half of the problems you speak of are self-induced from ****ty atittudes of the employees, poor workmanship (quality), poor attitude towards cost saving measures, and on the other side of the fence we have the owners of said companies trying to keep their companies competitive. The employees don't give a ****, so they have to outsource it somewhere where they do want the work at a competitive price, ergo - China.

Instead of pissing an moaning do your own part to insure your job lasts by putting out 100% all the time, making suggestions to improve production, and doing the absolute best you can. If the company does not make money, you WILL be out of a job...


[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 07-30-2003).]

fixxit
07-30-2003, 01:05 AM
I recently heard Allan Greenspan replying to questions from the iconoclast senator Bernie Sanders form New Hampshire. Sanders was pushing Greenspan about the loss of good paying US manufacturing jobs to overseas competitors. Greenspan was totally clueless and didn't think that this was a problem.
The Democrats could pick up this issue and run with it in the next presidential election.

lynnl
07-30-2003, 10:44 AM
Don't mean to take issue with your "clueless" assesment, but Greenspan (and the Federal Reserve) is a non-partisan player. He represents neither republicans or democrats.

DR
07-30-2003, 11:46 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Thrud:
I remember a news telecast of an interview with a Boeing employee who was pissed that his Christmas bonus was ONLY $60,000. That thankless prick is lucky to have a job, let alone be lucky enough to get a bonus.

Half of the problems you speak of are self-induced from ****ty atittudes of the employees, poor workmanship (quality), poor attitude towards cost saving measures, and on the other side of the fence we have the owners of said companies trying to keep their companies competitive. The employees don't give a ****, so they have to outsource it somewhere where they do want the work at a competitive price, ergo - China.

Instead of pissing an moaning do your own part to insure your job lasts by putting out 100% all the time, making suggestions to improve production, and doing the absolute best you can. If the company does not make money, you WILL be out of a job...


[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 07-30-2003).]</font>

Guys,

Thrud took the words right out of my mouth!!!

Take a close look at most of the plants that shut down and took their work offshore, you'll find they were full of whining, slackers.

x39
07-30-2003, 12:16 PM
In the same vein as Thrud said, I love it when people complain about their high taxes. The first thing I ask them is how they voted on recent referendum bond issues, almost to a person they will respond that they voted in favor of every spending package presented to them! Crossthreaded- I think we're on the same page. It is happening here.

spope14
07-30-2003, 01:22 PM
Bernie Sanders is from Vermont, but I like him anyway.

The senator from Connecticut, Christopher Dobbs I believe was addressing this on a national radio show recently (Imus). Did five minutes on the plight of the toolmaking industry, and also the graying of the workforce in this area. Seems he has a lot of support for his ideas, which I gathered were to start a move to bring jobs back somehow.

On the economy side, we are looking at a "deflationary" spiral starting. Companies can't get the price for the product, cut the price, cut jobs. No jobs, no money to spend, prices go lower, more jobs lost, on and on. This starts with "big sales" you notice more and more, then moves to individual items, and eventually to all commerce. Problem is, prices going down do not ever catch up wih the lost wages - which hit first, prices falling second, and it is very hard to finally find the balance once again. Greenspan put out a preliminary warning about this two weeks ago. This is a very scary thought, for a spiral like this is very hard to get out of, perhaps more than a recession or even a depression.

This will not only affect the US and abutting economies, but will eventually go world wide as the US is STILL the biggest marketplace in the world.

I know most on this board hate the idea of gov't intervention in the economy, but this might be the time, not only for the US economy, but gov't intervention also helps canada and mexico as they have plants producing for companies like Chrysler, GM, Ford, Boeing you name it. Not just producing product, but the materials, and all of the sid items that go with manufacturing from tools to metal to wood, to the paper used in the packaging and even the offices.

Yes, NAFTA gets hurt when the US gets hurt.

With a deflationary spiral, NO compapy can do profit in this situation, not even the overseas companies.

Just information, summed up in a short and simple way, there are more ramifications to this, and deper explainations, but from what I am seeing, and what several economists are whispering, and the big guy has started to recognize as a possibility.

On the up side, there is legislation, quite a bit of it, being introduced this upcoming year, a piece from Judd Gregg of NH, and heavily supported, to bring manufacturing jobs and manufacturing ack. This is now also being viewed as a "continent wide" security issue.

x39
07-30-2003, 01:49 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by spope14:


I know most on this board hate the idea of gov't intervention in the economy, but this might be the time, </font>
Unfortunately, government meddling in private business is in large part what got us here to begin with.

Thrud
07-30-2003, 06:13 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by x39:
...I love it when people complain about their high taxes.</font>

My cousin once complained to me about him having to pay $500,000 in taxes for the year. After I explained to the retard (ok, I screamed a lot at him) that most people would kill to have to be ABLE TO PAY THAT MUCH TAXES (i.e. "holy crap, Batman, I'm rich!") - he never complains anymore (at least to me).

There is a moral to this story - you can pick your friends, but relatives are like 'roids - a PITA.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 07-30-2003).]

moldmonkey
07-30-2003, 06:16 PM
I'll agree on the work ethic. I see it every day where I work but isn't it the job of management to make sure they are doing their jobs. I occasionally try peer pressure (snide comments)because I end up having to following them up but it doesn't work for long.

Jon Bohlander

Al Messer
07-30-2003, 08:19 PM
I took delivery this week of a small drill press vise, made in India. It's as good as any I've ever seen come out of a U.S. factory, but I'm sure that the wage scales are worlds apart. Could I afford to buy a USA name brand vise? Probably not on my rather severely fixed income, so--I have to buy what I can afford, not what I would like.

wierdscience
07-31-2003, 12:45 AM
There is one area that hasn't been touched on-US corporations,they send the plant overseas,get the cheap labor,get the cheap product but still charge an American made price.

brunneng
07-31-2003, 01:56 AM
I'd say some of the problems come from gov' types making rule after rule and law after law because it's their job not because it's a good idea.

And when we have people who have been in office so long they can remember when the first lathe was made and still hate that new fangled light bulb you're just asking for problems. There's just way to many power blocks in the government that they often don't have to even care what the citizen thinks.
After all they get to vote on their own pay raises - wish I had that option on my job. Look at what happened with the Calif budget. $10 million a day wasted while they figured it out - of course they get overtime bonus when they have to work past scheduled dates - for being incompentent. And then they got caught delaying on purpose - but they'll spin it off. Meanwhile, the REAL workers aren't gettting paychecks.

Mars colony anyone?

mayfieldtm
07-31-2003, 03:47 PM
Most any big-shot that controls the politics and economics could care less about any "low life" person that might actually use his or her hands to make a living.

Tom M.

spope14
07-31-2003, 04:19 PM
Hey Thrud, in my family, we get to choose relatives after the parents, wife, sons and daughters, grand kids, and bro. and sis. in laws. After that - cousins and nephews are fair game!!!!!!

I have used this "out" a couple of times, but took the "in law veto' once as well.....

Thrud
08-01-2003, 09:49 AM
spope14:
All my relative are blood sucking leeches. I have no hope in hell of ever getting any money I "lent" them back. It was so bad at one point that they would call me the morning I got paid with their sorid sob stories. Those greedy bastards got more of my blood than the misquitos or Red Cross ever did - but they are never around when I need them. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

I am going to haunt the bastards when I die. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif