OT Too much ice, too little power

[nheng]

The temperatures hit around 16F last night after the previous night's record ice storm with power out to about a 1/2 million or so people up here (central NH). With local power now supplied and serviced by the big boys, we haven't even seen any utility trucks in this area (residential outskirts of capitol).

Fortunately, with a $59 (700W cont.) wonder inverter from a local auto store, we now have fully functional forced hot water plant, cable modem/router/wap, and a handful of lights, all powered by my happily idling Jeep. Gas at $1.49 sure helps too :)

A lot of people are hurting right now as water and heating system pipes freeze. Too late to buy a generator right now and much too late to find someone to hook it up safely.

Generally, a power outage in this immediate area lasts perhaps an hour or so. Not much to practice on :( Den

[Dawai]

Tickles me.. each year a hurricane forces people to buy the only generator left in the stores.. a welder w/ac coils..

Come summer, the welder-generators are on sale, cheap.. Same type people up "here" buy a deer rifle each hunting season, buy a 4wd each winter.. buy a convertible each summer..


Glad you are not cold and in the dark..

[Liger Zero]

Generally, a power outage in this immediate area lasts perhaps an hour or so. Not much to practice on :( Den

Just be careful please. Most of us on here are bright enough to avoid this kind of situation:

http://www.13wham.com/news/local/story/Family-Hospitalized-After-Overcome-By-Generator/r2FqylWjlE2lcrFGkA-TqA.cspx?rss=509

...seriously now. Running an engine inside a house. Wow. :confused:

[nheng]

The Jeep was parked half outside until I noticed late last night that, depending on the wind, the exhaust could be funneled under the frame and into the garage. Ended up extending the cables and putting it outside with the door closed.

A few towns away, a 49 year old guy died overnight from CO from his generator.

Anything that generates heat is being pressed into alternate service, like David's welder turned generator. Barbecues are popular and tempting to move indoors.

[Alguy]

We had the remnents of hurricane IKE along with other weather mixed in created 70 & 80 mi winds last sept, as result most of area was with out power. We saw no trucks , until 48 hours later they came from as far as New Jersy and Wisconsin. The weather was warm so heating was not an issue
so it more of an inconvenience instead of a crisis. It was sorta different seeing almost the whole town darkened, makes you realise how much we depend on the power grid, most of stores lost perishables, the new walmart's generator failed so it lost food like most of town. Eventually the grid was restored and stores restocked. I am glad you have heat, it is biggie this time of year can you imagine trying to get a plumber in the next few weeks to fix broken pipes. I am thinking of upping the priority of a generator.
Good luck and i am glad you are warm and illuminated


It has made me consider a generator as a future purchase.

[nheng]

Went thru broken pipes at my father in law's place last winter. $42k in damages including many broken (pieces blown out) radiators, floors badly damaged, ceiling, some walls. House was vacant, heating system failed and neighbor didn't notice the the alarm light until the damage was done.

Like any other insurance, you hate to spend the money but I wish my debate about buying one this season had ended with a generator sitting in my garage. But then again, I'm in the hole for $59 so far for the worst state outages ever.

[Dawai]

There you go.. In the garage???

A real way to go is a outdoor building separated from the house.. Even plumbed outside exhaust has problems of fuel inside the house.

I'd be real tempted to suggest a utility trailer with the generator mounted in it..

[jdunmyer]

Here's mine: http://www.oldengine.org/members/jdunmyer/genset/

Does a good job, almost makes me wish for more/longer power outages. Not long ago, we had a near-24-hour outage, but anything more than a power bump is pretty rare. Maybe every other year.

[W9RAN]

I've looked at those big inverters too, but hadn't thought of running one off an idling vehicle. Otherwise I'm afraid battery life would be measured in minutes. Glad to hear it's worked out for you.

I don't have a cool genset, just a Coleman 5KW 2 cycle job, but last summer I did build a little 4 ft cube outside house for it, wired into a manual transfer switch in the basement. I picked 4 ft. because it's big enough for the generator and fuel but not big enough to get filled up with other crap ;-) The entire front is hinged to fold down to the ground for access, and the flat roof is hinged too, so I can tilt it up to provide headroom and ventilation. It's good to be prepared!

[bhjones]

I feel your pain, or rather I've felt it. I moved to Maine in the summer of '97 and just a few weeks after we moved into a new house, the big ice storm of '98 hit us hard. My wife and I had the forethought to include a prewired generator system into the construction of the house, so we rode things out in complete comfort, but others in Maine had it pretty rough for weeks.

Canada really got slammed. I remember pictures of the high tension power line towers that simply collapsed under the weight of the ice.

Wikipedia has a pretty good page covering it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_ice_storm_of_1998

On the radio today I heard someone refer to this ice storm as the worst in 20 years. Maybe they meant in the U.S. only.

[Mad Scientist]

If you are worried about CO building up in the garage, buy a CO detector! (about $15) I got got one to use next to my generator.

[nobody]

My setup - 2500watt power inverter to a quick connect on my truck, the alternator on the truck and wiring wouldn't be able to keep up with this thing at full power output but it works well for the loads I use it for.

http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee107/slagburn1/Dodge%202500/Misc/IMG_4202m.jpg

I mostly use this setup to run a coffee pot and microwave (never at the same time) while camping, much quieter than a generator (and much cheaper than a super quiet generator) and with 2 decent batteries under the hood I've cooked my dinner (about 10 minutes average on the microwave) and made my coffee everyday for a week straight without starting the engine or killing the batteries.

[clutch]

I remember an outage at work when accounting just had to close their books that day no matter what. They were talking of having me pull servers, hubs and workstations out of the plant and taking them to a hotel where there was power.

Asked them what the minimum number of work stations they needed which turned out to be one and went to plan #2.

Grabbed a spool of sjo cord from maintenance, ran it out to the battery of my pickup and connected the other end to the ups battery.

Ran an extension cord to the one workstation they needed to run.

Back to your original post. I'll never cook with electric. The kitchen range can put out enough heat to save your house from freezing. Same thing for electric heat, your inverter can power the squirrel cage on your propane, ng, or oil furnace.

Clutch

[nheng]

Quick update, this area got power back about an hour ago. Earlier this morning, the Jeep was still purring along while the Comcast generator powering local phones and amplifiers was dead, as were several neighbors.

Jeep's gas consumption for 2 full days was around 12 gallons.

I'm pleased with the results because after a little more reading, realized that the idling engine was not going to crank many amps out of the alternator. The Jeep has a 12V full time power outlet and I'm guessing the alternator must be both a little beefier (100 Amp or so) and must have decent output at idle.

The Jeep itself was quite happy with the whole deal. Took it out on the highway for a quick spin at higher RPMs. Never sounded better :)

While a generator would be nice, we sat last night with full heat, enough light and a recent vintage 20" CRT type TV (80W). Teaches the kids to make choices and have to rough it (food on the deck for freezer, in the garage for frig items). Couldn't have internet, game playing, etc. all at the same time.

Really toughens them up ;)

Almost forgot the CO issue ... brought the CO monitor down to the family room and was surprised to see a level half way to the alarm point. The Jeep was parked outside the garage with the door closed. The exhaust that crawled under the car apparently also crawled into any gaps at the door bottom and around family room door. Backed it out another 5 feet and the reading came back to zero. I have more respect for CO now.

Den

[rbregn]

:D I really like your inverter idea! I thinl I will get one of them also. I only reason we need back up is when the power goes out we have no water as I pump out of a cistern. Our antique kitchen wood stove heats the house and gives us a place to cook. Candles will work for everything else.

[W9RAN]

Glad you made it without incident, sounds like a good teaching moment or two!

My question was going to be, did you kill the battery by drawing more out of from the inverter than the alternator was putting back in, but your follow up post seems to say no. I guess even though modern vehicle ECUs know battery voltage and have control of engine speed, they don't increase the idle speed in order to make sure the battery is getting proper charge. Or do they? I spose one could rig up a manual throttle (i.e. brick on the pedal) if necessary.

Thanks for the heads-up on CO too. Nothing to take chances with.

[J Tiers]

Back to your original post. I'll never cook with electric. The kitchen range can put out enough heat to save your house from freezing. Same thing for electric heat, your inverter can power the squirrel cage on your propane, ng, or oil furnace.

Clutch

You wish......

Effing new rules mean that ALL ranges are electric.... even gas ones. No electric.... gas valve won't open..... must heat up an electric sensor to open gas valve electrically. Pilot lights are NFG anymore... must go green......

battery life?

We have a 2500W inverter in the shed.... and 400 AH of deep cycle batteries, and solar panels keeping them charged.

Of course, the one time we might have really needed them, a tree fell on teh wires AND and destroyed the old set of panels.... so we wouldn't have had more than what was stored. But all it took out was the neutral, and the water pipe ground (old type service) saved us. With the new rod-only services, wouldn't have worked, and we'd have probably had a fire due to 240V on 120V stuff.

[jdunmyer]

W9RAN,
You need to remember that watts = volts X amps. Put another way, Amps = Watts/volts. Pulling 600 watts from a 12 volt battery is going to mean 50 amps of draw. It appears as though he had fairly hefty cables going to the inverter, something that's required. Of course, if he's not pulling a heavy load continuously, the alternator will have time to catch up. Pulling a heavy load from a battery will kill it in short order, as the amp-hour rating is derived by a long-term, low-draw load. IE: a 100 AH battery will deliver 5 amps for 20 hours, at least in theory. However, it will not deliver 50 amps for 2 hours.

There's a lot to batteries, and the usual applies: TANSTAAFL

[Your Old Dog]

The same week we bought our house in the country, we bought a 7K electric start generator. I told the wife the power company is more concerned with getting the villages and cities up and running then the farmers in the country. Cost us a grand and has given us great comfort over the past 7 years. The first 2-3 years we ran it several times a year with power failures. I am also considering an converter for us with the truck dual batteries.

[gmatov]

Not all that pertinent to the 700 watt inverter, got a friend a HF 2000 watt model for his motorhome when he goes to races. Manual said it required either #2 or 0 cables, full load draw was 176 amps.

My 200 amp service entrance required 0000 aluminum, not going to check, but probably same as 00 copper.

Haven't needed it for a while, but my 200 amp DC welder, Onan propane, puts out 3500 watts 110 AC. Worked well. Down side, when I have needed it for building a couple houses, it burns about 20 # of propane a day. Better than going cold and in the dark for a week, though, and throwing out a freezer full of food, burst pipes, etc.

JTiers,

"Effing new rules mean that ALL ranges are electric.... even gas ones. No electric.... gas valve won't open..... must heat up an electric sensor to open gas valve electrically. Pilot lights are NFG anymore... must go green......"

I got a new one a year or so ago. I wouldn't swear to it, but I THINK the burners will open and light with a match. Oven won't, of course. Hot surface igniters. Plus, of course, the damned things are digital controls.

W9RAN,

I think the alternator is going to produce all the current it can while it is being called on for that draw. it shouldn't drain the battery unless you draw more than the alternator can produce.

nheng was likely for the most part drawing less that the 700 amp inverter was making of AC. About 60 amps, and alternators are usually 65 or more.

Cheers,

George

[nheng]

Jtiers, Same deal as Gmatov, recent gas range has electric starters, can be started with match but, no oven.

The 700 watt inverter was listed at 85% efficiency. I probably limited the load to around 600 watts for an input of 705 watts. This is around 68 amps from the alternator which I estimate is in the 90 - 100 amp or slightly more range.

The battery (quite old I must admit) acted like it had a full charge afterward, better than before the outage :)

[Evan]

Our stove is the same. All electronic but the burners can be lit by match. The oven wouldn't take much to run either, it's probably only a hundred watts or so for the igniter. Not that it matters, we can also cook on the natural gas heater which is entirely independent of power or on the wood stove or the BBQ or one of several camping stoves I have. I have two small gensets, enought to run a freezer or fridge motor. I also have a 2000 watt Generac 117vac alternator that installs under the hood of the Ranger. It would take about 10 minutes to put it in, I keep it out because it weighs 50 lbs. Also have a 1000 watt inverter but the one thing we don't have is enough 220 to run the well pump. It's 1.5 hp on the end of a 400 foot line so it needs some very good power. Still, we have a lot of fresh water stored as a matter of course for watering indoor plants and other purposes. More than enough to last for a couple of weeks.

I don't even notice power bumps except on the CNC. Nearly everything we have is running from a UPS. I have about 5 of them scattered around the house with computers, lights and other electronics plugged in. We get a lot of lightning here, a neighbour had his dish hit twice and we have had a strike on the tree fort that my son and I built. We sure had some rip-snorting storms this year. Somewhere on this hill is hit every year at least once. Lightning can do a heck of a lot of damage. I have seen it vaporize a circuit breaker in the main panel with almost no trace left except black smoke stains. It can and will kill every single electronic thing in a house without leaving any trace of what happened except that everything is dead. At least with the UPS's I have anything that is plugged into them is insured as long as I own them and use them.

[derekm]

A reminder to the already knowledgeable ~ butane camping stoves dont work below freezing.

If you dont do winter camping you might just forget that one...

Petrol, Paraffin, Propane - below zero its got to start with a P :D

Derek ~Long long ago spent one night in the Snow covered mountains of Wales trying to warm up a camping stove with his hands Brrrr! bought a paraffin stove.

[Evan]

My best and most reliable camp stove is a Svea 123. It always works and lights in any conditions as it burns naptha. I have several others but I always take the Svea and one other when camping. I only use naptha stoves as it can drop below freezing here any day of the year.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/svea.jpg

[derekm]

My best and most reliable camp stove is a Svea 123. It always works and lights in any conditions as it burns naptha. I have several others but I always take the Svea and one other when camping. I only use naptha stoves as it can drop below freezing here any day of the year.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/svea.jpg

snap! got one of those

plus two optimus 1/3pt paraffin stoves (both pre 1970s)


- Naptha (i.e Heptane) is a little difficult to come by cheaply in the UK and the Svea doesnt really like unleaded petrol but a trip to France can get you 1L of "Wasbenzin" or Essence a Nettoyer which is the same thing for a euro.

[Orrin]

My best and most reliable camp stove is a Svea 123.
Same here. Now, the recreational equipment suppliers seem to flood the market with propane-fueled equipment. (Perhaps because that's what buyers want.)

However, I could never see the wisdom of having to pack propane cannisters (empty and full) when a little lightweight refillable aluminum gasoline container would keep my Svea 123 fueled for a week.

Does anyone know if the Svea 123 is still on the market?

Regards,

Orrin

[derekm]

Same here. Now, the recreational equipment suppliers seem to flood the market with propane-fueled equipment. (Perhaps because that's what buyers want.)

However, I could never see the wisdom of having to pack propane cannisters (empty and full) when a little lightweight refillable aluminum gasoline container would keep my Svea 123 fueled for a week.

Does anyone know if the Svea 123 is still on the market?

Regards,

Orrin

yes it is but quite expensive its the Optimus Svea 123 £66 in the UK
mine cost me £40 new old stock about 7 years ago

Forgot my other two stoves are Optimus 96 ... each cost me £2.50 new old stock about 30 years ago (the official price was £40 even then)

[ptjw7uk]

Only problem with parafing stoves is in trying to light them when there is any wind to speak of. Ended up with a small bean tin with top and bottom removed to surround the Optimus stove till it got going when I dont think anything would set it out.
I think the use of propane items is the ease of lighting them as people are not attuned to lighting of parafin devices.

Peter

[derekm]

Only problem with parafing stoves is in trying to light them when there is any wind to speak of. Ended up with a small bean tin with top and bottom removed to surround the Optimus stove till it got going when I dont think anything would set it out.
I think the use of propane items is the ease of lighting them as people are not attuned to lighting of parafin devices.

Peter
The 96 originally came with a little folding wind shield inside the metal it came in. I soon got the knack of lighting them with a single match even in the rain and wind. But then I like things that take a little learning to master :)

When I bought the first one I also bought an additional windshield made out of 3 pieces of 300x300x0.3mm Aluminim this turned out to be the best ever and I have never seen its like on sale anywhere again.

[dp]

I also have an Optimus 96 and it's been run on everything from gasoline to lamp oil. Haven't found anything it won't burn yet but I'm not willing to try everything, either :). I paid $5.00 for it at a swap meet in Orange County, California about 40 years ago.

That little stove has cooked a lot of good meals and made coffee from snow melt. It always works. The tin can it comes in and the tri-fold wind screen make it easy to tote around.

[clutch]

Fortunately, with a $59 (700W cont.) wonder inverter from a local auto store, we now have fully functional forced hot water plant, cable modem/router/wap, and a handful of lights, all powered by my happily idling Jeep. Gas at $1.49 sure helps too :)

A lot of people are hurting right now as water and heating system pipes freeze. Too late to buy a generator right now and much too late to find someone to hook it up safely.

Generally, a power outage in this immediate area lasts perhaps an hour or so. Not much to practice on :( Den

I posted a day or so ago. Guess what. 5 AM this morning a tree falls down on the power line. Breaks the neutral but leaves up both hot wires.

At first I thought the bed room tv was dying but then I heard a chirp out of the UPS in the living room. Walking by the microwave, it seemed somewhat quiet while attempting to heat up breakfast.

Checked the kill-a-watt on ups input. 90v. Chit, lost neutral. Kill coffee pot, kill microwave.
Voltage is good enough again.

Crew just left property. I sat in dark for 40 minutes when they killed the can (transformer) and repaired the line. Learned that my UPS will shut down my computer after 6 minutes but the UPS will stay up powering router and modem for at least 40. I was surfing the net in the dark on the battery powered laptop.

I'm going to have something set up for next year. Inverter, or generator.

Clutch