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View Full Version : Need Lathe Accident Post Deleted Please



Rookie machinist
12-17-2008, 10:53 PM
Can someone please remove the post to the lathe accident. It is linked from another site and hogging our bandwith. It has recieved over 1000 views in the last hour. I just spent 5 min trying to get here.

BillH
12-17-2008, 11:00 PM
You know, I have no problem what so ever getting here, now looking at that link is another story!!

dp
12-17-2008, 11:07 PM
I removed the link I posted.

BillH
12-17-2008, 11:19 PM
I removed the link I posted.
I want to see the picture.

dp
12-17-2008, 11:25 PM
Redacted for the OP.

BillH
12-17-2008, 11:41 PM
Thanks for posting the pic!

bhjones
12-18-2008, 01:21 PM
Strange there was a run on that thread. when I posted it I didn't embed any photos, it was a link to another site.

On a side note. If a thousand extra views in an hour to a post without any images brings this site to it's knees, the collective "We" are living on the razors edge. Hardware is cheap, throw some at the problem.

Evan
12-18-2008, 02:25 PM
It isn't just the traffic. That post was attracting people who want to see blood and guts, not machining. It was linked from over 100 other sites and most of them had nothing at all to do with metal work. They are still out there if you want to try and find them.

I notified George the minute the thread popped to the top so blame me for it being deleted if that what you wish.

Willy
12-18-2008, 03:12 PM
I personally haven't seen the lathe accident pictures , and while I don't endorse any kind of censorship on this forum, I do find it disturbing to find such a morbid fascination with seeing a man ripped apart. At least this is what I surmise from what I have read about the subject on other threads.

Unfortunately I have had my fill of witnessing grotesque accidents in real life. I used to haul fuel for many years. It's been almost thirty years since I came upon a fellow trucker at 11:30 at night, engulfed in flames fed by 10,000 gallons of gas and diesel. All I could do is listen to the screams and wait for help to arrive. That night still haunts me to this day.

I also had the misfortune to witness firsthand four seniors ripped apart as they pulled out in front of a fast moving semi. It's not easy for me to deal with those pictures, that's why I don't need anymore of that sh*t!

Perhaps others have led a more sheltered existence and need to experience this vicariously. Whatever...I just call it gore mongering.
Hope you enjoy the photos when you find em.

BillH
12-18-2008, 03:17 PM
I personally haven't seen the lathe accident pictures , and while I don't endorse any kind of censorship on this forum, I do find it disturbing to find such a morbid fascination with seeing a man ripped apart. At least this is what I surmise from what I have read about the subject on other threads.

Unfortunately I have had my fill of witnessing grotesque accidents in real life. I used to haul fuel for many years. It's been almost thirty years since I came upon a fellow trucker at 11:30 at night, engulfed in flames fed by 10,000 gallons of gas and diesel. All I could do is listen to the screams and wait for help to arrive. That night still haunts me to this day.

I also had the misfortune to witness firsthand four seniors ripped apart as they pulled out in front of a fast moving semi. It's not easy for me to deal with those pictures, that's why I don't need anymore of that sh*t!

Perhaps others have led a more sheltered existence and need to experience this vicariously. Whatever...I just call it gore mongering.
Hope you enjoy the photos when you find em.
You know, after my friend just died in a mid-air collision, I don't much care anymore to see pictures of airplanes hitting terra firma.

bhjones
12-19-2008, 01:08 AM
Not blaming anyone Evan, just a comment.

As the original poster of that thread I'd like to make it clear I made the post as a safety/consequence reminder. There was a warning in the title and I also offered to pull the post at the time. The consensus was to let it stand.

Astronowanabe
12-19-2008, 01:19 AM
Not blaming anyone Evan, just a comment.

As the original poster of that thread I'd like to make it clear I made the post as a safety/consequence reminder. There was a warning in the title and I also offered to pull the post at the time. The consensus was to let it stand.

I for one thank you for that warning and never felt any need to open that post.
pulling it if people were using it to get their jollies instead of a safety reminder is the right thing to do.

torker
12-19-2008, 01:20 AM
I'm with Willy..I never looked either.
I was a First Aider for 12 years...also worked part time as an EMT.
I've picked up after some gawdamm gory stuff and do not need anymore.
Once you've had someones brain matter drop on your boots and get it all over your hands...Seen bones sticking out of people clothes... heard them scream for an hour...you do not need to see any more...
Russ

The Fixer
12-19-2008, 11:46 AM
I work as a technician and F/A attendant in the trades/vocational area of a community college, specifically with millwright/machinists with the constant flow of new trainees. It can be downright scary to see these guys (and gals) working with the machines and seemingly oblivious to the real dangers. Even just getting them to wear eye protection can be a challenge at times. There seems to be the belief that nothing bad is "allowed to" happen to them. They are referred to as the 'millenium child' and have been parented with no consequences for anything, and rewarded without cause, and nobody fails. Both rewards and consequences should occur 'after' an action..... ah but I digress!
To my mind, removing this link because someone is/was abhorred by what they saw after making that conscious decision to look is a perfect example that the world should look after you and you are not responsible for your choices or decisions!
Think twice before implementing censorship......
I'm not a big believer in the shock photos and videos as a deterrent to unsafe activity, especially with this generation of people that have been raised 'by' (yes 'by' not 'with') video games as babysitters, but if even one life is saved by having seen the gore, then it's worth it.
JMHO

torker
12-19-2008, 12:11 PM
Fixer...I agree with you about the censorship thing. People do need to get a jolt of reality when it comes to this kind of thing.
I personally don't have to look...I've seen it for real..I know what can happen.

ptjw7uk
12-19-2008, 12:40 PM
Mind you I think its just a human thing, if its got a click on to see then people will do it, How many people will pass a 'WET PAINT' sign without tetsing to see if its right!

Peter

dp
12-19-2008, 01:04 PM
There is no censorship involved - all the images are available on the internet and a trivial search on Google will turn them up. Anyone who is interested can do so 24/7. Whether it is appropriate content for this site is quite another thing. Not everything is, and even some of what is appropriate needn't be reproduced here when it is already presented elsewhere. A discussion of shop safety does not need gore to set the point.

And at least in this case the site owner who hosts the images requested the link be removed as it was having a negative affect on his server.

Rif
12-19-2008, 01:14 PM
I can say that these photos, though gory, have had a positive effect for me. My wife used to quietly come down, to the basement, while I was machining something, and loudly call my name...which would scare the h*ll out of me. :mad:

So, one evening, I showed her some pictures of a bad lathe accident and she hasn't startled me since. :D

Regards,

Brian

rmack898
12-19-2008, 01:42 PM
These photos were posted on several other fora and I only glanced at the first one as I believe these are photos of a guy I knew here in town that was killed in his lathe sbout 3 or 4 years ago. We were not good friends but we knew each other and I supervised a few jobs where he was a sub-contractor.

He worked mostly alone and his large shop was next to his house. When he hadn't come in one night by 10PM, his wife went out to the shop and found him mangled up in the lathe. It's rather ironic that as a weld/fab contractor he was known by everyone else in the business as "Mr. Safety", as sometimes went to extemes to ensure jobsite safety.

Evan
12-19-2008, 03:31 PM
Funny thing about that is there is another guy who is pretty sure it was somebody he knew in another state entirely.

madman
12-19-2008, 07:14 PM
Way before it was posted here a friend sent the pictures to me from Kirkland Lake (as middle of nowhere as you can get) Well nearly. Anyhow he isnt even a machinist but knows that i fool around on huge 30 inch swing plus lathes as well as my small 15 inch machine in my garage. It (the pictures and him mailing them to me weirded me out.

bhjones
12-19-2008, 08:43 PM
I toyed with the thought of getting a big old (18"-20" swing) lathe for the fun of fixing up something really old (the big old iron is often pretty cheap). I have young kids though, and the thought of a machine with an open gear train had me on the fence out of concern for little hands and fingers, but after running across those pictures I decided against getting one. My shop is dangerous enough without a machine that could roll them (and me) up like a garden hose.

I also now show my Sheldon 10" (3/4hp) a very healthy level of respect and I look at my 14" Logan (2hp) with outright suspicion. Hell, even a 1/3hp Altas in back gear would make pertinent modifications to whatever it can get hold of.

Machtool
12-19-2008, 11:12 PM
Funny thing about that is there is another guy who is pretty sure it was somebody he knew in another state entirely.

I'm reasonably certain, that accident happened in North Carolina, March 11th 2004. Its the accident discussed on page 4 of this N.C Department of Labor ledger.
http://www.nclabor.com/news/ledger/04NovDec.pdf

Regards Phil.

Evan
12-20-2008, 05:20 AM
I'm reasonably certain, that accident happened in North Carolina, March 11th 2004. Its the accident discussed on page 4 of this N.C Department of Labor ledger.


Except the "other guy" is sure it happened in Louisiana.

There is nothing about the description in the North Carolina accident that makes it especially likely to have been the "accident" in question. Industrial accidents happen on a regular basis everywhere. A fatal lathe accident is most likely to involve a large lathe into which the victim is drawn for some reason.

This sort of "safety warning" serves no purpose. Anyone in a position to be injured by such equipment will be certainly aware of the possible hazards. It's pretty easy to see the potential for harm that running a large machine tool presents. My 16" shaper leaves absolutely no doubt that standing in the way of the ram would be a very bad move. My industrial gearhead Strands drill press is obviously not going to slow down if it grabs your sleeve.

Safety warnings have merit when they point out hazards that are not readily apparent, such as the hazard that grinding tooling containing cobalt presents. When the "warning" is regarding an already obvious danger and includes unecessary and gratuitous and obscenely* graphic images then there is no justification for presenting it.

* Obscenity, fromm Latin obscenus, meaning "foul, repulsive, detestable".

bfburk
12-20-2008, 09:35 AM
:o I saw the accident photos after it was first posted. It bothered me so much I would not go near my lathe for several months. Now when I work on the lathe, I am sure to wear only a Tshirt no matter how cold.

I am much more cautious and the photo made me more respectful of my machine tools but ,also, cautious around the motor cooling fan on my vehicles.

There recently was an article where a child was killed by the PTO shaft on the back of his father's tractor.

I am very wary of wearing anything with a hood and those hood closure strings which could wrap around a shaft and pull you in. Or anything loose on your clothes that could be caught up in rotating machinery.

Evan
12-20-2008, 10:59 AM
Here, hang this on the wall where you can see it. This pretty well covers what you need to know about machine safety. You should be able to figure out the details for yourself.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/sign.jpg

yf
12-20-2008, 11:27 PM
Put one of these on every machine in your shop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/machines/thismachinehasnobrain.jpg

OldRedFord
12-21-2008, 12:12 AM
Where can the pictures be found? I read somewhere on here that someone noticed a file jammed in the chuck.

Im saying this cause in my welding class, people routinely file a part on the lathe with it turning, or use a deburing tool with the lathe on. Thought the picture would enforce why not to do that.

Evan
12-21-2008, 12:29 AM
Filing a part while the part is turning is an accepted practice. It must be performed in the correct manner to be safe.

Lathe files have a different cut allowing the file to be held at a safer angle to the work. One should never back up the end of the file with any part of the body including the hand. The file must have a proper handle. One should never reach over the chuck to hold the file. The file should be long enough to extend past the outer radius of the chuck so it isn't likely to catch the chuck. Both edges of a lathe file are uncut ("safe") so it won't damage the chuck.

OldRedFord
12-21-2008, 12:36 AM
Filing a part while the part is turning is an accepted practice. It must be performed in the correct manner to be safe.

Lathe files have a different cut allowing the file to be held at a safer angle to the work. One should never back up the end of the file with any part of the body including the hand. The file must have a proper handle. One should never reach over the chuck to hold the file. The file should be long enough to extend past the outer radius of the chuck so it isn't likely to catch the chuck. Both edges of a lathe file are uncut ("safe") so it won't damage the chuck.

Defiantly not using lathe files.

dp
12-21-2008, 12:59 AM
None of my files are lathe-safe, but my use of them is. I do confess it is one of my least favorite operations on the lathe and I don't even have a large lathe.

Evan
12-21-2008, 01:20 AM
To file safely the right hand reaches over the bed and pulls the file against the work while the left hand holds the file handle and guides the file. The greater amount of force is applied with the right hand so that the file is trailing in the grip rather than leading the left hand. A file that is trailed against the work will not catch either the work or the chuck.

BadDog
12-21-2008, 01:22 AM
Filing a part while the part is turning is an accepted practice. It must be performed in the correct manner to be safe.

Lathe files have a different cut allowing the file to be held at a safer angle to the work. <snip> Both edges of a lathe file are uncut ("safe") so it won't damage the chuck.
Look for a Nichols 12" (common) "Lathe Bastard". Enco has them cheap enough. This is exactly what Evan describes. It has safe edges, and a high bias, works MUCH better than a common hand file of ANY configuration when used on the lathe. I keep a hickory Nichols handle on it and it is always handy for frequent use on the lathe.

Davek0974
12-21-2008, 03:38 AM
A discussion of shop safety does not need gore to set the point.


No, but it serve well to ram it home!. I am responsible for the safety concerns of 65 people at our site, we had a visit from our saferty consultant/risk assessor and he advised me to remind people that wearing rings is extremely hazardous. I asked why and he showed me a picture of a de-gloved finger. Realising how often i had caught my ring on the corner of things really made me think, the picture proved it.

We had the group chat at work and lots of people mocked the idea, "it couldnt happen to me" and so on, then i said that i had a picture of the consequences of wearing a ring and anyone who wanted to see it can come and do so, but warned that it was gory.

By the end of that day, 25 people had visited me to see it and NONE of them are wearing a ring to work now.

I saw the lathe picture when it was first posted and can not see any harm it being up to view as long as it comes with a warning. I know it is also on at least two other sites at present.

Evan
12-21-2008, 08:35 AM
No, but it serve well to ram it home!. I am responsible for the safety concerns of 65 people at our site, we had a visit from our saferty consultant/risk assessor and he advised me to remind people that wearing rings is extremely hazardous. I asked why and he showed me a picture of a de-gloved finger. Realising how often i had caught my ring on the corner of things really made me think, the picture proved it.


Your example differs from the original posting being discussed in an important way. The message is specific to a single and for many, unobvious hazard. Many people don't even think about their wedding band as it has been worn for many years. The take-away message is simple, do not wear a ring around powered equipment.

If the same logic is applied to the original post the take-away message would be "DO NOT USE A LATHE". Absent any evidence of a single specific cause for the accident, assuming it wasn't a fake, no real conclusion can be drawn that will make a person safer in their shop practice.

Anyone who has used a lathe is already aware that it can cause harm. While they may not be aware of specific practices that may be dangerous the OP serves no purpose in identifying them and for that reason does not serve any valid safety related purpose.

The OP is equivalent to a poster showing a horribly burned victim with a title saying "BE CAREFUL WITH FIRE". We already know that. Reminding us does not require pictures showing possible consequences of undetermined cause.

It has been determined in studies of new driver training that such safety messages do not result in lower accident rates. Messages that focus on specific identifiable hazards are worthwhile and can possible be enhanced with visual examples of the danger. I could go and find an image of sombody with a file tang piercing their hand (or gut) and post it along with my advice on filing on a lathe. I really don't think it necessary.

lazlo
12-21-2008, 09:01 AM
The file should be long enough to extend past the outer radius of the chuck so it isn't likely to catch the chuck.

Following a tip in many turn of the century machinist texts, I also file left handed (my left hand holding the file) so my left arm isn't floating over the chuck.

Edit: oops -- sorry, Evan got that in his follow-up post (#32 (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=402399&postcount=32)) -- sorry Evan,

Willy
12-21-2008, 09:12 AM
Evan I believe there are those of us that can grasp the consequences of our actions and can visualize what would happen if we inserted our hand into say, a meat grinder. Those that do not need a gory picture have a strong imagination...the ability to visualize.

Then there are those that cannot grasp what can happen and need a visual stimulus in order to see the consequence of inserting ones hand into that meat grinder. The picture in their minds eye is not clear enough to drive the point home. They can see it but it just isn't clear enough.

Don't get me wrong though as I am not trying to sound like an elitist. I know from past experience that these are not stupid people. They just don't respond well in these types of situations without a strong visual impact.

Just speaking for myself I don't need the pictures, as I already have a lifetime of personal photos in my mind to draw from. Fortunately others do not and may need the graphic visual experience of someone else's mistakes to learn from.

Machtool
12-22-2008, 03:47 AM
Even
Sorry about the delay in responding. Iím blaming that on the weekend and the need to be on site first thing this morning.

Except the "other guy" is sure it happened in Louisiana.
Your not working with me here. A man of your particular research talents. With out spilling the beans on this entire horrid episode, that should have been enough. I donít log in here once in a blue moon to express an opinion I know nothing about.

Maybe the other guy didnít do the hours & hours of research on it that I did. If you follow your nose with the geographic information and the type of repair work they did, you could still see an exact picture of the very same machine / building / surrounds up until recently, as contained in the horrid Pics, on a plant capacity page.

I could name that company but I wont. Thatís not my place.


There is nothing about the description in the North Carolina accident that makes it especially likely to have been the "accident" in question
There was nothing about the safety vest and the protrusion on the axle (quote ďa metal arm stuck outĒ) and the various other similarities that rang any bells for you?

That link I posted to the NC-Labor article. That wasnít some thing I found this past Saturday when I posted that. That was in my bookmarks, ďpropertiesĒ tells me I put it there Wed 13th February 08. The very link below that is the company in question with pictures of the very same machine. (Consequently which have since been removed since this thing blew out all over the internet early 08).

You might ask my interest? Towards the end of last years Christmas shut downs, I did a job in the mining belt, Karratha, Western Australia. In order to get on site I had to do a days safety refresher on a one day stop over in Perth W.A. Though out that 8 hour course he ran a slide show of industrial accidents. General kind of stuff, the type we have all seen. Mining trucks running over Land Cruisers, Equipment left on inclines with out the park brake. The expensive boat dropping into Dubai harbour, The doofus with his arms extended way into a conveyor. Etc etc etc.

During lunch I got talking to him about those images. Some of them were verging on disturbing. While no one was around during lunch, he got to showing me the stuff he wouldnít dare show in the official class on his laptop. Iím still to work out if he is a professional safety trainer, or some sort of sick freak. Amongst the stiff he showed me that turned my stomach were the lathe accident pics we are discussing. At that time, late January, they had just surfaced here or on P.M, so I had seen them just before, and mentioned that fact to him.

To cut a long story short, he mentioned that bad / gory pics were of no use to him, with out some of the back ground of the incident. Itís of little use to have the pics if you cant make recommendations about how to avoid such accidents, as a safety trainer. Given you guys ( & P.M) were discussing it , I told him, Iíd do some leg work. Hence the 13th Feb bookmarks, when I got back. We kept in touch for several weeks. Bounced a few things around. Given his association with the West Aus. Work Cover authority and other international safety organisations. He was able to verify most of it, short of being there in person in 2004.

I got to see things I normally wouldnít have access too. Iíve read witness testimony, where the first on the scene stated they couldnít find the E.Stop or an Isolator. Hence the pulping. When I say ď Iím reasonably certainĒ Iím more than reasonably certain.

Regardless, Iím sorry to have mentioned it. This mans family and that company have been through enough. That occurred to me about half a second after I hit the submit button. Apparently you canít delete a submission here? It might be best in the long run that every internet myth, gets to run itís course that the guy was ďacross the road / up the street / next suburb to me. That might keep as all on our toes. But its not the evidence Iíve seen.

Iíll be out of here in the morning , until the 5th Jan. Donít go to too much trouble with a response as I wont see it until then.

Best regards, and Merry Christmas to all.

Phil.

Evan
12-22-2008, 10:31 AM
There was nothing about the safety vest and the protrusion on the axle (quote ďa metal arm stuck outĒ) and the various other similarities that rang any bells for you?


I never looked at the images. I have seen someone die in front of me from horrendous self inflicted injury. That's more than enough for me. I have a very active imagination.


Itís of little use to have the pics if you cant make recommendations about how to avoid such accidents, as a safety trainer.

Precisely. The OP falls in that category.