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View Full Version : Tool Room vs standard type lathe??



krems
12-23-2008, 01:17 AM
I'm thinking it may be time to upgrade my 40 year old Clausing lathe. My lathe keeps purring along and is still an excellent machine. As i find myself doing smaller and more accurate type work I keep thinking about one of those toolroom lathes....sharp, victor, hardinge, etc. I only need one lathe and keep talking myself out of buying one because of the limited size. I like to use collets but sometimes a good 4-jaw chuck is needed.

Aside from the precision spindle is their any real advantage to a toolroom lathe in terms of inherant accuracy, ease of machining etc. Are the bedways, tailstock, crossslide, etc that much more precise. I keep thinking that If I get a new/newer lathe in great shape w/ a tight spindle that I could do everything I need on one machine. What about spindle speed...does one really need that speed (3000-4000rpm)

Maybe a good used Monarch lathe is what I need.....Any thoughts!!

Krems

Teenage_Machinist
12-23-2008, 01:55 AM
Frankly a toolroom lathe is just a lathe with a toolroom sticker on it.

The real question is why there is a toolroom sticker on it. Which may be due to high accuracy. But do not count on it, I would say.

macona
12-23-2008, 02:08 AM
Ummm.. Not quite. Tool room lathes, in general, are lighter duty machines that are built to higher tolerances. Monarch 10EE spindles are 40 millionths max standard, 30 optional and I believe a Hardinge HLV was standard 30 millionths.

Toolroom lathes are designed for fine work, not hogging metal. And you pay for it. A new 10EE will set you back about 80k, I think I HLV-H is around 60K and even a Sharp knock off is around $30K.

Mark Hockett
12-23-2008, 03:46 AM
Ummm.. Not quite. Tool room lathes, in general, are lighter duty machines that are built to higher tolerances. Monarch 10EE spindles are 40 millionths max standard, 30 optional and I believe a Hardinge HLV was standard 30 millionths.

Toolroom lathes are designed for fine work, not hogging metal. And you pay for it. A new 10EE will set you back about 80k, I think I HLV-H is around 60K and even a Sharp knock off is around $30K.

For way less than the Monarch or Hardinge you can have a Haas Hardinge knock off with full CNC control,
http://www.haascnc.com/details_LATHE.asp?ID=467#CNCLatheTreeModel

Or for less money than that get a lathe that will do everything all the above lathes will do and swing 16",
http://www.haascnc.com/details_LATHE.asp?ID=310#CNCLatheTreeModel

Then Krems would only need one lathe in his shop.

krems
12-23-2008, 07:54 AM
delete post....sorry!

krems
12-23-2008, 07:54 AM
Sorry about the above post.... fingers slipped.

A new machine is out of the question but a good used machine is affordable. I had no idea that the Monarch lathes were so expensive. Does the Monarch 10ee machine have a 5c collet spindle or would one need a collet chuck. I hear a lot about these machines but never any mention of collets. I really like the look and weight of the Monarch machine but am not crazy about the chuck sticking way out. Sharp machines are high on my list as are a good used Monarch or Hardinge. They all seem overpriced however. I imagine the toolroom lathes are too small for barrel work if your a gunsmith. This might weigh heavily on my decision.

The Haas machines are interesting. Never looked at one before. I do think I want a machine with digital varible speed however. Still looking around and exploring options.

Krems

RobbieKnobbie
12-23-2008, 08:47 AM
We bought a Victor toolroom lathe a few years back, it was 13K new IIRC. Decent machine, but the wiring was screwey and we had to have one of the maintenance electricians do some corrective surgery the first week we had it.

I wouldn't recomend it for general use though.

SGW
12-23-2008, 09:02 AM
The South Bend 10" engine lathe became the South Bend 10" toolroom lathe when it was sold with the taper attachment.

Possibly the "toolroom lathe" included collets as well. Otherwise, it was the same basic lathe.

Bob Ford
12-23-2008, 10:15 AM
Can you reliably measure .0001 th? Do you need this accuracy? I remember a gunsmith that priced his rifles on the group you shot from a benchrest at his shop. Group as good as rifle = normal price. Group twice as big = price doubled.
Three times size = 4 times price. Any larger would not sell you any rifle.

Suggest that until you are not happy with what your present lathe does only look and study new lathes.
Bob

Ed Tipton
12-23-2008, 10:26 AM
The 10EE is not the only toolroom lathe Monarch made. I have a Monarch 16C toolroom lathe made in 1943 in support of the War effort. My lathe is 54" between centers and weighs in at around 4500 lbs. I don't know if it is more or less accurate than other Monarch lathes...I'll just say that it works for me. As far as being a lightweight...forget about it. There is nothing lightweight about it. These lathes were built to deliver the goods, and they do that in spades. You may not need or be able to use a lathe as large as mine, but used Monarchs are available on the secondary market at very attractive figures when compared to the new lathes that are available, and there really is no comparison. The only caveat is that you need to be able to determine the status of the lathe before purchasing one. Parts are available, but even the small insignificant parts are prohibitively expensive. Many of these older lathes were rode hard and put away wet. And even then, many good serviceable lathes are still around and ready to do more. Other possible candidates are Lodge and Shipley, and Sidney, Axelson, LeBlond, American Pacemaker. These were all heavy duty lathes of exceptional quality, and with a little patience, they can be found...frequently with tremendous accessories. They can be awkward to move, and you will definitely need help, but once they're in place, they stay put. You won't find any of these lathes mentioned skittering across the floor. When my lathe is running, and while taking a .350 DOC, you can balance a nickle on its edge on the crosslide, and yes...I've done it!
I agree, the 10EE is more than just a great lathe, it is a piece of art. The lines and design features culminate in a magnificent machine, but without having ever actually run one, I doubt that I could do any better work than I'm capeable of on my 16C, which I consider to just be a 10EE in work clothes. Both are Monarchs...and that's enough for me.
Also for the record, the spindle on my lathe and the 10EE is more than adequate for gunsmithing work.

lazlo
12-23-2008, 11:03 AM
Frankly a toolroom lathe is just a lathe with a toolroom sticker on it.

Toolroom lathes are non gearhead lathes -- they use belt drives on the spindle. They eliminate all gearing in the headstock to elminate gear chatter on the workpiece. To the extent that most toolroom lathes don't even have a back-gear.

The 10EE has a belt-driven feed for turning. The Hardinge HLV-H elminates gearing in the power feed by using a DC motor mounted directly on the apron.

The Schaublin toolroom lathes have a ballscrew driven by an outboard feed motor.

Toolroom lathes also have a very wide bed -- 1 to 1 1/2 times the center height.

Teenage_Machinist
12-23-2008, 11:45 AM
I would say check the actual things though before you assume that a lathe has somtheing it doesnt.

pcarpenter
12-23-2008, 12:03 PM
Lazlo has all valid points if one considers the term "toolroom" to have real meaning. Unfortunately as Teenage Machinist points out, the term is plastered all over all sorts of stuff that really doesn't fit the "tight tolerance" qualifications that a real toolroom might put on a machine.

That's not just an import misuse of the term to try to sell products...I have seen lots of vendors of used American machinery refer to lots of (even really well made) lathes as "toolroom" lathes. Either the lathe genuinely came out of a toolroom (which makes it a "toolroom" lathe in the loosest sense) or they said it did so that people will think its had an easier life than one out on the factory floor.

Let's face it, the term has been used so many ways that its hard to quantify today. As was already pointed out, some of the Monarch C series lathes were listed as "toolroom" lathes...in addition to the lathes like the 10ee we traditionally think of. Some of these came with such neat toolmaking features as "relieving attachments" that hopped the carriage in and out for creating relief in making taps.

In the case of South Bend, some sales lit I saw suggested that one of their "toolroom" models came with collets not included with the others. Nice feature....but a little hard to say that a set of collets makes a lathe somehow better quality. Did my Chinese import lathe become higher quality when I bought a set of 5-C collets ?:rolleyes:

Paul

quasi
12-23-2008, 12:32 PM
I think Southbend "toolroom" lathes came with a taper attachment, collet closer, steady and follower rests, micrometer carriage stop and an extra accuracy lead screw as a package.

As far as backgears go in a toolroom lathe, my Rivett 10-20f has them, in fact it has double back gears in its slowest speeds.

Al Messer
12-23-2008, 12:45 PM
If your Clausing is still turning out good work, why spend all that money just so you can say you have a "Tool room lathe"? Ever consider that a lot of accuracy is in the skill of the operator who has learned the limitations of his machine?

Mcgyver
12-23-2008, 01:06 PM
Frankly a toolroom lathe is just a lathe with a toolroom sticker on it.
.

where do you get that from? a toolroom lathe is built to a specific DIN standard and traditionally weighs in at 2x as much or more as an engine lathe. The are heavy built and usually have a belt drive to ensure smooth operation. I think you are thinking of an engine lathe, which are often incorrectly called tool room lathes, tool room lathes are beasts like Hardinge HLV, Monarch, Rivett etc. Just because a used machinery dealer has pulled it out of a toolroom does not make it a toolroom lathe :)

lane
12-23-2008, 07:12 PM
Well every one is talking about two different kinds of lathes in the same sentence. A Monarch 10 EE , Hardinge HLV , a Rivett are called Precision Tool room lathes Are High speed toolroom lathes .
South Bend .Monarch , Clausing and a bunch of other brands made and called a model of some of their lathes Toolroom lathes . They were way more heavy duty than a lot of the lathes imported now. I used it run a 10 inch monarch with a 36 inch between centers but it weighed about 5000 lb. And would turn about 14 inches over the ways. These type af lathes were called toolroom lathes because they were classed as a 10 inch swing and hade short beds usually 30 -36 inches between centers. but not in the same class as the 10 EE and the Hardinge and Rivette lathes which were Precision lathes. hope this clears some things up.

Mark F. Cheney
12-23-2008, 07:16 PM
I have just aquired a leblond 13 x 24 - yes 24 leblond regal. I have been looking for a suitable used lathe for several years. I even made a one task specific fixture to handle some of what I want the lathe to do. And then I come across this beautiful lathe. It was just down the street about 2 miles. The wife had bought a new house and there was no room in the new plans for this lathe and all of the accessories with it. So I got it for the cost of moving it to my shop and some help with their moving to the new house.

It has a 1 1/2 in spindle hole, 3 HP and accessories galore. With patience and an ear to the ground it is amazing what can be found sometimes. It is going to cost a bit to get it set up in my shop but still I have a 3,00 lb lathe capable of work closer than I can measure and my gunsmith brother is green with envy. I passed up a similar situation on a tool room lathe because I wanted the larger capacities of this heavy machine. And I am now happy that I did.

Mark F. Cheney

Forrest Addy
12-23-2008, 07:53 PM
A tool room lathe is more a matter of equipment and attachments than anything esle I can determine. Wider range Q/C box, fancier steady rests, 3 jaw. 4 jaw, collets, taper attachment, Q/C tools posts, etc; all purchased as a package.

The more elaborate tool room lathes may have form relieving options, a means of gearing the crossfeed to the lead screw for taper cutting, spindle indexing, and power driven lead screws for cutting long leads. Monarch made a dandy in days of yore.

Production lathes seldom have taper attachments and are quite often bare bones versions of the tool room lathes the sissy toolmakers run. Production lathes may be furnished with more powerful motors and square turrets.

My lathe is intended as a maintenence shop machine but it's equipped as though it was a tool room lathe. It came furnished with a 4 KW motor but I replaced it with a 10 HP on a VFD for stock removal. I cut a test disk when it was new and it came out round within 20 millionths or so. That was 1971. It's still pretty good but probably has greater error now. Last time I made a high speed spindle the finished assembly ran quiet and smooth at 18 KRPM so I guess it's still OK.

Anyway, I still assert a toolroom lathe is a matter of equipment, options, and attachments. The EE, Hardinge, etc I would class more as precision lathes or instrument lathes. They are smaller and their forte is precision as opposed to general use. There's also maintenence and schoolroom lathes each with their market niche. That's 5 kinds at my count. There's other specializations at the larger end of the scale. Roll lathes, shaft lathes, etc. Move on to turret lathes, automatics, multiple spindle turning machines and so on that the mix gets richer.

Puzzling over the boundries between toolroom and general purpose engine lathes is soon made pointless when the possible overlap is consided. I was in a tool shop where they had a 17" Axelson - one of the stoutest strongest engine lathes ever built. It was equipped with a 15 HP motor and they were using it for making small parts for optical apparatus. They liked its precison and repeatability. A Schaublin about the same size was in running condition but covered with dust. Local preference I quess.

websterz
12-23-2008, 08:43 PM
Toolroom lathes are non gearhead lathes -- they use belt drives on the spindle. They eliminate all gearing in the headstock to elminate gear chatter on the workpiece. To the extent that most toolroom lathes don't even have a back-gear.

The 10EE has a belt-driven feed for turning. The Hardinge HLV-H elminates gearing in the power feed by using a DC motor mounted directly on the apron.

The Schaublin toolroom lathes have a ballscrew driven by an outboard feed motor.

Toolroom lathes also have a very wide bed -- 1 to 1 1/2 times the center height.

The "EE" I run on a daily basis has a back gear. :p

Rich Carlstedt
12-23-2008, 08:49 PM
Well, some of you are close, but none have mentioned what the real definition of a Tool Room Lathe is.
First, it is like the term "Billet' which seems to have invaded the Race car and motorcycle with images of worth and value.
So the makers of Lathes start tossing the term around like popcorn as it implies worth or value, and in the machine tool world it could mean....Accuracy.
Sorry it has nothing to do with this.

Official Definition courtesy of SME 1959 endorsed and created
by practically every machine tool company in the USA.
as Printed in the Official "Tool Engineers Handbook"
in particular these Lathe Makers in the lathe section
LeBlond Machine Tool Co
Springfield Machine Tool Co

Classifications-
Tool Room Lathe
"Engine Lathes with additional equipment and having a single-tooth clutch arrangement and lead screw reverse at the apron "

Its been a long time since I have seen one of these !
Single tooth refers to cutting a thread without a threading wheel !
Certainly reversing the leadscrew at the apron is very rare

Interestingly Engine lathes by the way ,are those capable of cutting threads using gear trains, with the tool traveling along the axis of rotation and at right angles to the rotation axis.
but when the bed is less than 6 Feet in Length, its classified as a bench Lathe. !!!!
" Engine Lathes may be divided into abitrary classifications of size,functions and degree of precision in manufacture"

Rich

beckley23
12-23-2008, 10:02 PM
Apron mounted leadscrew reverse isn't rare in the "older" lathes, I've got 3 lathes with it, here's the latest;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/se60-7.jpg
The upper lever on the right side of the apron is the reversing lever.
Harry

J. Randall
12-23-2008, 10:28 PM
My lathe will swing 12", probably 30" between centers and weighs about 1800 lbs. I don't know the exact date it was made, maybe late 20's early 30's. It does have tumbler reversed leadscrew, but no single dog clutch and no apron control. I do have the original factory brochure that came with it that proudly proclaimed it to be a Porter Cable Toolroom Lathe, so they must have done some redefining over the yrs. I am still going to call it what they did.
James

tiptop
12-23-2008, 11:37 PM
I'll second that Harry. Here is my 14C with apron reverse.

http://photos.imageevent.com/aatiptop/toolspage/monarhlathe/websize/Monarch%20Lathe%20004.jpg

Great tool room lathes

Jay

Forrest Addy
12-24-2008, 01:00 AM
Tangent to the OP: "lead screw reverse at the apron" ?

Think about it. I have for 30 years and the only way I can interpret it means that one can reverse the lead screw from a control located at the apron. No further in any spec I've read amplified this requirement to include obvious contingent requirements like "preserving the timing of the spindle to the feature being machined." or "when actuated the lead screw reverses and thus the carriage..."

The implication is that the operator can operate this control and somehow the carriage will back up without the tool losing timing between the tool and the thread being cut. This same operation is accomplished by reversing back (backing off the cutting tool and reversing the spindle without disengaging the half nut thus returning to the ithread start without losing indexing.

Nope. There are one lever spindle forward/reverse clutch controls for the spindle in machines furnished with a constantly running motor. There are pushbutton motor reversing control stations. When operated without disengaging the half nut these control schemes will return the carriage to the thread start without losing indexing provided the tool is cleared.

There are apron mounted feed reverse levers that reverse the feed direction of the carriage and the cross feed when actuated which have nothing to do with thread indexing. But never have I seen an apron mounted control or hand lever that reverses the lead screw itself.

The practical and sensible (ie: economical to execute) place for a lead screw reverse control is in the index train where 100% of the lathes I've run have it located.

The design complications assiciated to implement this "lead screw reverse" requirement are many: locate this control on the apron would require the lever and associated linkage and a keyed operating rod running the length of the bed to a reversing tumbler or jaw clutched fwd/rev train. The production advantages of doing so are nil.

I submit this is lead screw reverse requirement was thought up by a naife or an ignoramuc that somehow has become traditional, enshrined in a standard, and never corrected.

.RC.
12-24-2008, 02:32 AM
I have always wondered about "tool room" lathes....I thought grinders were what you used for extreme accuracy...Rough with the lathe, grind to size..

John Stevenson
12-24-2008, 07:24 AM
I have always wondered about "tool room" lathes....I thought grinders were what you used for extreme accuracy...Rough with the lathe, grind to size..
No, common misconception.
First off you buy a clapped out flat belt South Bend lathe that's been used in an iron foundry for 40 years.
You then peruse the internet and read about scraping.

Next stage is to then slather 3 pounds on engineers blue over everything that moves [ cat included ] and with a blunt file attempt to take it all off.
The fact that they ways have work banana shaped doesn't matter, scraping gets a flat surface, it says so on the internet.

You then clean it all up and spend 8 times longer painting this than scraping it.

You then do a test cut and announce to the world that this machine you have lovingly restored is now good for 0.0000000001" over 12 ", a figure incidentally you have no possible way of measuring accurately.

And so yes why did we even bother to invent cylindrical grinders ?

.

beckley23
12-24-2008, 03:42 PM
Here's the other end of the apron mounted leadscrew/feed reverse, and Forrest is correct about the complications in design.
The rod that runs through the apron, for the full length of the bed, has a circular gear rack pinned to it. Next to the gear, on the left, is a nut, and the worm, not visible because it's inside the nut, is attached to the reverse rod, which is how the rod gets its left/right motion, which controls the movement of the gear segment that moves the bevel miter gears that shifts the internal single tooth dog clutch that controls the rotation direction of the spindle stud gear. The reverse rod also has adjustable stops that will automatically disengage the single tooth dog clutch.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/se41.jpg
The lathe I show is a Monarch Series 60 16" X 78" and it also has an apron front mounted feed(only) reverse knob, while my C series Monarchs can only be reversed by using the lever on the right side.
The apron mounted leadscrew/feed reverse is not unique to Monarch. Pratt & Whitney and Hendey, and I believe American, Lodge & Shipley, etc also had this feature.
Personnally, I find this feature extremely useful, but to incorporate this in the definition of a "Toolroom Lathe" is a bit of a stretch.
Harry

cabletech
12-24-2008, 04:15 PM
My South Bend 8113C 13" lathe is a Catalog "Tool Room" lathe. No extra "precision" per se', but it came standard with a taper attachment, thread dial, and probably a few other bits - whereas the standard 13" lathe did not.

I believe South Bend used it as a designation for lathes that had more options on them as 'standard equipment'.

Doc Nickel
12-24-2008, 04:45 PM
And so yes why did we even bother to invent cylindrical grinders?

-In order to grind cylindricals, of course. On a similar note, I once bought a toolroom lathe, but once we took it out of the toolroom, it stopped working.

I had to scrap it since I didn't have a toolroom, and replaced it an engine lathe. But the only things it would make were pistons, crankshafts and cylinders.

I sold that to an automotive shop, but they made the mistake of installing it in the toolroom, which caused the tolerances to shrink so much the lathe locked up solid.

After that, I bought a bench lathe, but had no use for round benches. I traded that to a guy for a horizontal mill, but it turns out it was only a Bridgeport somebody had knocked over.

He offered me a turret mill in exchange, but I didn't have any tanks I needed worked on. He did have an ID grinder I was interested in, but he only had the tooling for California and Nevada drivers licenses.

Doc.

BadDog
12-24-2008, 05:01 PM
Eh Doc, you might want to back off on the 'Nog a bit... ;)

dockrat
12-24-2008, 06:02 PM
Eh Doc, you might want to back off on the 'Nog a bit... ;)

no way!!!! keep em all laughing Doc :D

Peter.
12-24-2008, 06:27 PM
-In order to grind cylindricals, of course. On a similar note, I once bought a toolroom lathe, but once we took it out of the toolroom, it stopped working.

I had to scrap it since I didn't have a toolroom, and replaced it an engine lathe. But the only things it would make were pistons, crankshafts and cylinders.

I sold that to an automotive shop, but they made the mistake of installing it in the toolroom, which caused the tolerances to shrink so much the lathe locked up solid.

After that, I bought a bench lathe, but had no use for round benches. I traded that to a guy for a horizontal mill, but it turns out it was only a Bridgeport somebody had knocked over.

He offered me a turret mill in exchange, but I didn't have any tanks I needed worked on. He did have an ID grinder I was interested in, but he only had the tooling for California and Nevada drivers licenses.

Doc.

Quality :D :D :D

lazlo
12-24-2008, 08:38 PM
Well every one is talking about two different kinds of lathes in the same sentence. A Monarch 10 EE , Hardinge HLV , a Rivett are called Precision Tool room lathes Are High speed toolroom lathes.

So there's a difference between a "precision toolroom lathe" and a "toolroom lathe" :D
Seriously, I think most people think of Monarch 10EE, Harding HLV-H, Rivett, Schaublin when they talk about real toolroom lathes.


South Bend .Monarch , Clausing and a bunch of other brands made and called a model of some of their lathes Toolroom lathes . They were way more heavy duty than a lot of the lathes imported now.

I have a Clausing 5914, 12x36 -- which was marketed and sold as a "toolroom lathe" -- there are a bunch of pictures in Molrecht's "Machine Shop Practice" of the 5914 with the caption "A Modern Toolroom Lathe." It's a fantastic HSM lathe, and in the same class as the South Bend 13", but it's not what most people would consider a toolroom lathe...

lazlo
12-24-2008, 08:45 PM
Official Definition courtesy of SME 1959 endorsed and created by practically every machine tool company in the USA.

Classifications-
Tool Room Lathe
"Engine Lathes with additional equipment and having a single-tooth clutch arrangement and lead screw reverse at the apron "

Wow, so the 10EE isn't a toolroom lathe then :D


The "EE" I run on a daily basis has a back gear. :p

There are always exceptions to the rule. ;) In order to avoid headstock gearing, Monarch used a gearhead motor, instead of a traditional backgear:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/page2.html

All versions of the lathe are fitted with the 5 : 1 reduction gearing that, on later lathes, gives 8 to 800 rpm; because the gearbox is mounted on the motor (in the cabinet base) the headstock spindle is completely isolated from whatever vibration effects the drive might create.

Similarly, the Rivett has a Reeve's vari-speed drive with a dbelt feed to the spindle, and the back-gear on a completely seperate drive system:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/rivett1020s/img7.gif

oldtiffie
12-24-2008, 08:49 PM
John Stevenson and Doc Nickel have got it about right.

There are "Tool-rooms" and there are "Tool Rooms". It seems that a "Tool-room" "machine" - and by inference, its owner and/or Operator/Machinist have some mystical qualities and capabilities that those unfortunate lesser mortals who do not work in or have a "Tool-Room" with "Tool-room" machines (n)either have nor can nor will they ever have or aspire to or achieve such enlightenment and fulfillment.

If that is the case, then by extension, "Tool-Room" is a Machinist's "Heaven on Earth" with all and only all "Good machinists" in it.

Perhaps they may help if some-one can accurately define of explain what a consistent definition of a "Tool-Room" is - but also sensibly with-out that definition there can be no definition or description of a "Tool-room" anything - lathes and mills - and most importantly - "Operators/Machinists" - included.

A Tool-room basic requirement seems to infer a need for a very good "Metrology" (aka "Inspection") Room with a controlled environment.

Its almost as if having anything labeled or inferred to be "Tool Room" is some sort of reverse "guilt by association" ie to be morphed into "excellence by association". Sometimes it is - sometimes not.

I have seen some "shops" that would leave many so-called "Tool Rooms" in their dust. I have similarly seen some so-called "Tool Rooms" that are not much more than a basic factory or tin shed.

Perhaps in many cases the "Tool Room" is the "John".

A lot of this "Tool-room" stuff is, in the OZ vernacular, a pretty big "wank".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wank

lane
12-24-2008, 09:20 PM
A tool room is where you keep your tools. So my shop must be a tool room. and if that is the case all my machines must be tool room machines. so now as of Christmas eve I have Two tool room lathes o-boy two tool room mills that is even better and even two tool room grinders and a whole bunch of other tool room tools. thank you Santa.

lazlo
12-24-2008, 09:24 PM
A tool room is where you keep your tools. So my shop must be a tool room. and if that is the case all my machines must be tool room machines.

Cool! My 7x10 mini-lathe is in my shop, and if my shop is a toolroom, and a lathe in a toolroom is a toolroom lathe, then... :D

David Powell
12-24-2008, 09:35 PM
I once was led to believe that an ordinary, or engine lathe, could be identified by having a removable gap piece or simply a gap whereas a "Toolroom" lathe could be identified by not having a gap of any sort By that logic a Southbend 9" would be a toolroom machine whereas a Myford 7 would be an ordinary or engine lathe. One dear old fellow, long since gone, used to swear that the best use for the gap was to keep his tea there so he didnt knock it over! Why worry, just get one you like which will do the job well. Regards David Powell.

lazlo
12-24-2008, 10:39 PM
Well, some of you are close, but none have mentioned what the real definition of a Tool Room Lathe is.

Accuracy. Sorry it has nothing to do with this.

Rich, the Schlesinger limits (industry accuracy standards for machine tools) for a toolroom lathe are a lot tighter than a production lathe. The Schlesinger limits include the spindle runout spec, the runout of the tailstock, taper per foot, the accuracy of the leadscews, ... When you get the cert sheet with a new machine tool, it's the tested values for each of the Schlesinger limits.

I'm visiting the inlaws in Arkansas, so I don't have my copy of "Testing Machine Tools" for reference, but from an old post of mine on PracticalMachinist:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showpost.php?p=143824&postcount=4

"From Connelly's Machine Tool Reconditioning:

The Accuracy of Lead Screw, p 308
Recommended Standards

Tool Room Lathe
0 - 12" Swing: +/- 0.001" lead per foot
12" - 18" Swing: +/- 0.0015" lead per foot
20" - 36" Swing: +/- 0.002" lead per foot"

Doc Nickel
12-24-2008, 10:46 PM
A tool room is where you keep your tools. So my shop must be a tool room. And if that is the case all my machines must be tool room machines.

-In that case, I know a guy with a toolroom washer & dryer, and a toolroom refrigerator.

The latter makes high-precision icecubes, of course.

Doc.

J Tiers
12-24-2008, 10:47 PM
AFAIK, the "toolroom" is where tools are MADE, as well as refurbished, sharpened, etc.

The "tool crib" is where they are stored, and charged out to you.

So the idea of a "toolroom lathe" is to me one with the attachments and basic precision needed to accurately make taps, gear cutters, and specialty tooling of all sorts to support production.

The idea that the equipment WITH the machine is a good part of the determination makes a ton of sense to me. As long as the basic machine meets standards appropriate to that use, of course.

Rich Carlstedt
12-24-2008, 11:09 PM
Right on Lazlo !
And J Tiers too

I would think that the term "Toolroom" designated the area where
best machinists would be assigned as repairman of tools, and making tools for production.
You have the term "Tool and Die Maker" which is used generally as a way of expressing someone with skills to make tools or tooling (including Dies)
Making such tools requires far greater accuracy (think of making a jig), in order to maintain the tolerences required in production.

Forrest makes a good point about the complications of Apron Control.
It is not the feed that is important, but the ability to thread, so leadscrew direction and control is paramont, which is emphasized with the dog clutch.
I have only used a dog clutch ponece in my life.
it was on a Myford Lathe and was the result of Mr Thomas of great fame.
It makes threading so fast, that words do not express it.
I would assume that companies did not want this on production lathe, but the hourly rate paid to tool makers made it a time and cost saver.

Like I mentioned earlier. it is like the term 'Billet"
Southbend and others try to impress folks with a non existant level of accessories.

I have some more information with reference to Lazlo. I have my foot in my mouth.
It is true that a ToolRoom Lathe has higher requirements for accuracy.
ANSI standard B5.16-1952 specifies " Accuracy of Engine and Toolroom Lathes"
I have two pages of specs, so i will only throw out a few to compare.
The first number is a Toolrom lathe and the second is a Engine lathe

Tailstock Way allignment-Max in 48 " .0005 ---- .00075
Spindle center runout .0003 ----- .0004
Spindle Taper Runout at end 12" testbar.0006------.0008
leadscrew error per foot max +/- .001-----.0015
Cross slide allignment for12inches Diam..0005-----.001


I think the Lathe builders should have said " Meets Toolroom Standards" instead of calling them Tool Room lathes, if they did have good specs ?

Now you have problems ? I love Coffee, so My wife bought a new electric 12 cup coffee pot, and I realised I was only getting about 4 cups out of it.
So I checked it out. Did you know that the standard they use for this BS is a 5 1/2 Ounce cup !!! Yep, we got it in more than lathes fellows !
I think the coffeee pot guys have been hanging around Washington DC too long.

Rich

cabletech
12-25-2008, 11:38 AM
Now you have problems ? I love Coffee, so My wife bought a new electric 12 cup coffee pot, and I realised I was only getting about 4 cups out of it.
So I checked it out. Did you know that the standard they use for this BS is a 5 1/2 Ounce cup !!! Yep, we got it in more than lathes fellows !
I think the coffeee pot guys have been hanging around Washington DC too long.

Rich

I agree, why, just this morning - 8 "cups" of water only netted me 3 "cups" of coffee. Those must be metric cups or something. :eek:

MickeyD
12-25-2008, 12:01 PM
The last time I went in for a checkup my doctor said my pulse was a little high and asked if I had any coffee that morning. I said of course, but I only had one cup. He then looked at me and asked how big the cup was, and I replied that it was a pint, and if it was good enough for beer it was good enough for my coffee. I don't really know who came up with the coffee cup standard size, it really is a joke.

Michael Moore
12-25-2008, 01:44 PM
FWIW, Mori Seiki labels the MS850 as a "precision high speed lathe".

Here are the specs for the JIS accuracy tests it is supposed to meet:

http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/MSlatheinspection1.jpg
http://www.eurospares.com/graphics/metalwork/MSlatheinspection2.jpg

cheers,
Michael

joebiplane
01-20-2016, 06:12 PM
The South Bend 10" engine lathe became the South Bend 10" toolroom lathe when it was sold with the taper attachment.

Possibly the "toolroom lathe" included collets as well. Otherwise, it was the same basic lathe.


I have been rebuilding ( mostly refurbishing) a circa) 1944 187-Y South bend 10L and I came across a Taper attachment for my 10L that is complete except for the two gibs used on the bed portion of the Taper attachment. They seem to be as rare as chicken lips and it looks like I will need someone to make them for me. I'm looking to you fine folks to point me to a shop that can and will make the gibs I need unless someone has a used set that would be usable.... I Guess that no one will simply remove them from a decent attachment but maybe someone has a " Roach" of a tapper unit that has seen far better days and only has a few serviceable parts worth selling...if the gibs are usable I am a willing buyer....
Please feel free to PM me or E-mail me at diamond@easyliving.com
Thanks
JoeBiplane

dian
01-21-2016, 12:19 PM
im glad to learn that my 3 in 1 is a toolrom machine, because it has belt drive.

old mart
01-21-2016, 04:17 PM
I use a Smart and Brown model A which is one of those lathes classed as tool room by people who know what they are talking about. It has back gears! For a 20" between centres and only 5 1/2" dia over the saddle, it is a true heavy weight at over 1700 pounds.

Doc Nickel
01-21-2016, 05:29 PM
Since this was posted eight years ago, I've bought a large Springfield lathe, that according to their own catalog back in 1946, is (or was) considered a "toolroom" lathe. Their reasoning? Because it has extras like the leadscrew reverse on the carriage and a taper attachment.

Doc.

Jim Williams
01-21-2016, 05:39 PM
Harrison rebadged a Colchester lathe a good many years ago and sold it as the Harrison 10AA. They placed a good many of them because Hardinge could not keep up with the demand for HLVH lathes. Most of them are pretty beat, and they developed a poor image due to problem with the Kopp variantor. I acquired one when it was less than 10 years old, and had never been used in a production schedule. It is well tooled as a toolroom lathe, is very sturdy, and has quality headstock bearings. It has served me well. I don't recommend one unless you could find a pristine example at a good price, and a quiet variable speed drive.

Jim