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View Full Version : Fire proof covering for styrofoam??



torker
12-27-2008, 07:01 AM
Hey guys!
I finally gave up...took the afternoon off yesterday and screwed styrofoam to the panels on my overhead garage type door in my shop.
Also screwed a big piece to the man door. Wow! It is nice and toasty in the ol' shop now...

But...I don't want it to get too toasty. This being a fab shop and all. There's always lots of sparks flying in here.
I need something to cover the styrofoam with so it doesn't catch on fire.
Any ideas?
Thanks!
Russ

rockrat
12-27-2008, 08:01 AM
My garage doors are recessed for insulation (added). I had always thought that I would cover the insulation with sheet metal. To keep the little embers from jumping into the cracks between the sheet metal and the garage door I was thinking of sealing with silicone.

The only thing that a fellow would also have to check is if the garage door opener will pull up the extra weight. Also, the top of the newer garage doors should have a bar or angle running the length to tie in the garage door opener to. If not they flex and fail over time.

rock

GKman
12-27-2008, 08:02 AM
5/8" Sheetrock

torker
12-27-2008, 08:17 AM
LOL! Sheetrock...Good one! Ummm.. I am the garage door opener...can't lift that much drywall :D

Your Old Dog
12-27-2008, 08:41 AM
If it's just spark control and not sustained flames on it wouldn't ordinary laytex spray paint work better then having nothing on it?

Evan
12-27-2008, 08:43 AM
Here is the lazy man approach. It's even Canadian. :D

http://www.flamecontrol.ca/fire_list.html

You want one of the latex based coatings for covering foam.

Steve Steven
12-27-2008, 09:41 AM
Slightly off subject, but many years ago I flew model airplanes. I used to make wingtips from Styrofoam, and covered them with silk or paper laid on with thinned down white glue. Several coats would seal the Styrofoam from the effects of the butyrate dope we used to seal the wing covering with.

You could do something similar using a cloth applied with thinned down white glue applied with a brush.

Steve

Phil McCrackin
12-27-2008, 09:59 AM
The only thing I can think of would be Aluminum roofing flashing, I know for a fact that they come in 24" x 50' rolls. that should be enough to cover your door, and it would be light wieght as well as spark resistant.

A.K. Boomer
12-27-2008, 10:31 AM
Torker what about the aluminum covered styrofoam to start with? (siding material or sheathing) In your shop it would probably take a spanking after time but it is tough enough to deflect the nastiest of welding spark...

If you wanted to toughen it up your not limited to latex paint as you wont have to worry about chemically melting it Soooooooo --- throw on some epoxy paint after your done? But dont paint the edges...

Evan
12-27-2008, 10:59 AM
Torker what about the aluminum covered styrofoam to start with? (siding material or sheathing) In your shop it would probably take a spanking after time but it is tough enough to deflect the nastiest of welding spark...

If you wanted to toughen it up your not limited to latex paint as you wont have to worry about chemically melting it Soooooooo --- throw on some epoxy paint after your done? But dont paint the edges...

Russ has already installed the foam.

Doesn't anyone read the earlier postings?

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/firepaint.jpg

MTNGUN
12-27-2008, 12:04 PM
Very thin (0.010" or 0.016") sheet metal as used for covering industrial pipe insulation. Available in aluminum, stainless, or even dimpled galvanized steel. Normally sold in 36" x 100' rolls, but if there is an industrial insulation supplier in your town, he would probably cut it to your specified lengths. Attach with sheet metal screws.

torker
12-27-2008, 01:06 PM
Ahso..I never thought of paint! I'd actauly like to paint it and cover it with sheet metal.
Flashing...yup...that would be good.
I really don't like this but I had to do something.
I want to replace this door with a higher one that slides open sideways but that'll have to wait til spring now. Thanks guys! I'll phone my paint supplier and see what she has for this.
Russ

A.K. Boomer
12-27-2008, 02:31 PM
[QUOTE=Evan]Russ has already installed the foam.

Doesn't anyone read the earlier postings?





Whoooh there Stymie,,, Actually I think you need to re-read the postings ---
The very reason I brought up the aluminum coated foam house sheathing is due to the fact that he did state just foam, So if you add some deductive reasoning skills to that (which i might add something that you are running a little short of these days) And you consider his entire topic to due with fireproofing the FOAM and welding sparks setting it off then my suggestion is right on the money -- and thats regardless if or if not he already has the aluminum coated foam due to the fact that he didnt mention it (sorry, im not a mind reader)
Now -- getting on to your site -- check out the epoxy based coating and its insulating properties rock --- not only that -- its rugged as all get out (they use it on ammunition crates and warheads:p)

"Flame Control No. 46081 Thermal Insulating Intumescent Epoxy Paint is a two component (catalytic epoxy) thermal insulating, semi-gloss intumescent fire retardant paint. This product is manufactured in accordance with the United States Military specification Mil-C-46081S. The coating is designed for use on Naval and Marine vessels, military and commercial aircraft, fuel tanks and storage vessels, ammunition crates, missiles, warheads and other surfaces where it is essential to obtain the maximum insulating protection under the most severe fire conditions."

The reason I brought up the aluminum covered foam is two fold, one, as is its superior to just foam for flame retardant -- two - if he goes to coat it he's not limited to latex paint, he can use epoxy and it won't melt the foam board...

Got anything else you want to try and make some common sense out of or is that enough for today,,,, Happy new year Ev:D (spank -- spank)

Forrest Addy
12-27-2008, 03:06 PM
How about latex paint or white glue with cotton fabric applied wet. Adds spark protection and stiffens up the foam too.

Thin sheet metal is better but tweak the sprint for the added weight,

Evan
12-27-2008, 03:55 PM
Got anything else you want to try and make some common sense out of or is that enough for today,,,,

What part of "already installed" do you not understand?

Bguns
12-27-2008, 05:48 PM
Kind of a Dark Picture, did not wait for Lights to warm up.

http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l142/m37b1/snow2805.jpg

The Aluminum color side seems to be just Plastic on this style of Insulation. Insulfoam R-Tech Type 1....

Multimeter shows no Conductance...

Just a Quick/Dirty way to keep a little Cold out. Heavy welding done Outside when warm. At Neighbors Bigger Shop when Cold.... Light TIG And Mig done 15 ft Away from Door.

Willl Add Flashing this Summer...

A.K. Boomer
12-27-2008, 06:21 PM
What part of "already installed" do you not understand?



The part that says that its only on a garage door and a door, the part that says it's only styrofoam and wouldnt be a nightmare to replace, The part that also says that you can get the sheathing in minimal thickness and just add it over the existing foam (kinda like the other suggestions of adding metal or cloth over the existing foam)
And last but not least the part that says "already installed" does not mean he just built this entire shop structure out of cement and signed some kind of contract that he cant cover over it/take it down/manipulate it further to suit his needs or any other altering factor including packing it all up for you to install in a place that might not be appropriate to mention on this fine family site:D

Comprendo? or yet I ask again --- want to yap yer gums some more?

Evan
12-27-2008, 06:34 PM
The Aluminum color side seems to be just Plastic on this style of Insulation

An aluminized layer like that will add about R3 to the insulation value by simple heat reflectance. You can do that with almost any insulation by laying down aluminum foil for instance on the inside side of fiberglass insulation in the attic. Whether it provides any fire resistance depends on the thickness of the aluminum covering. Some products are aluminized strictly for the reflectance value and it will do very little to increase the fire resistance as the aluminum is only a few microns thick, similar to a space blanket. If the product has a layer of actual aluminum foil that will help a lot to increase the fire rating but even then it is still only less than .001" thick.

The problem with thicker layers on large panels is the expansion and contraction of the materials. Actual sheet metal panels of aluminum need to be kept small and provision made to allow for changes in size with changes in temperature. If Russ were to cover the foam insulation with aluminum flashing it should be kept to pieces no larger than about 2' x 4' or even less. Where he lives the temperature range from winter to summer can exceed 140 degrees F. If the aluminum isn't properly installed it will buckle and pull loose from the door.

The best way to install flashing as a fire barrier is to buy 2' wide flashing and cut it to 3 or 4 foot lengths, whatever will make a regular pattern that covers the door nicely. The edges should be edge broken over a straightedge with a mallet with two adjacent edges up and two edges down and the panels should be cross broken to allow for expansion. The panels should be installed so that they lap over the broken edge of the ones to the bottom and one side with the laps pointing down. Start at the bottom and work up. This will provide a reasonably tight joint that will allow for movement while keeping out sparks.

The panels should look like this:

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/alumpanels.jpg


The part that says that its only on a garage door and a door, the part that says it's only styrofoam and wouldnt be a nightmare to replace, The part that also says that you can get the sheathing in minimal thickness and just add it over the existing foam (kinda like the other suggestions of adding metal or cloth over the existing foam)


So you admit to not understanding those parts?

Alguy
12-27-2008, 06:39 PM
I have clopay insulated door They covered the foam with a type of vinyl .

It was installed when door was made , seems pretty durable been installed 10 years. and yes insulation helps alot . Another thought might be is to glue on the aftermarket silver color insulation they use in cars. It should give ational insulation and fire resistance.

Evan
12-27-2008, 06:44 PM
Unless it is sold with a stated fire resistance rating you may assume it has none.

A.K. Boomer
12-27-2008, 06:53 PM
I have clopay insulated door They covered the foam with a type of vinyl .

.


Ditto the clopay and the insulation --- Iv got the same , its been in for about 8 years and may have a couple small spots where it broke through ( I might have thrown a wrench or two ):o

Can't attest to the welding as its seen very little mig-ing from ten feet away.

I hear it expanding (or I should say remaining the same) when the door gets hit with a full blast of sun, no big whoop, if you have the aluminum sheathing all you would really need to do is install lightweight plastic tension washers to anchor it with and cut elongated slots in the direction of the panels length at the anchors --- you can leave the middle sections as just holes and start elongating the slots more and more the further you get out to the ends:) Plenty of breathing room for something like garage door panels due to them being in long narrow pieces.

lane
12-28-2008, 07:49 PM
I do not think it would fire proof .But would keep sparks away. If you are newer a news paper publisher the printing presses use a aluminum sheet they burn the negative in to print the paper they can be cut with some sheers and are clean and shiny on the back side . They throw these away after printing . You could go ask for some and just cut to fit your panels. I have uses them for lots of things. most places that print will be glad to give you a car load.

mark61
12-28-2008, 08:26 PM
Sounds like you need to get some sheet metal duct working machines and make snap together panels with rolled edges to fit the garage door and cover the insulation! :)

mark61

digger_doug
12-29-2008, 08:25 AM
Sheesh...I take 2 days off...

Torker, the F.M. (factory mutual) guys want a "cementatious coating"
which is similar to Evan's coating (note, I didn't read the
linked material all the way thru, could be exactly).

A thin metal sheet could allow, thru a gap, sparks to
get to the foam. A spray applied material(or roller, or brush)
is fast, and is going to get into every corner/gap.

Oddly (at least to me) is the fact that styrofoam (a plastic)
will adhere quite well with PVA (elmers glue). But elmers
isn't fireproof, but could be a primer for a second layer
of a grout or plaster. But instead of fooling around with
something untested....

There is a group of products for the retrofit market that
contractors apply styrofoam to the outside of a building,
and then apply a "scratch coat" of a plaster type product.

Dryvit comes to mind, believe there was some problems
in the beginning (leading to lawsuits). But this was out
in the weather.

A little web research should bring these products up.

tnx
Doug

P.S. harbor freight makes a nice little ($19.95) plaster
spraying gun, i've used it, it works good.

Tarp everything you don't want "cottage cheese" on...

Evan
12-29-2008, 09:56 AM
The fire resistant paint I linked to isn't a plaster or mineral based product. Anything like that will probably crack, chip and flake off the doors as they are slammed, kicked, bumped etc. The paint I recommended is an "intumescent" paint. This means that when it gets hot it foams up to make a layer of insulation that won't burn. It will protect anything from immediate heating including steel beams. Metal panels will work fine if correctly applied in the manner I suggested.

digger_doug
12-29-2008, 10:19 AM
"The paint I recommended is an "intumescent" paint. This means that when it gets hot it foams up to make a layer of insulation that won't burn."

Evan,
the paint sounds good, I assume it would be more expensive
than a "cementious" paint or such. But yes, the door would be
the place for it, non-moving areas could use the cheaper
coating.

I didn't realize you had posted in defense of the sheet metal
idea. I wonder what the cost would pencil out to be ?
It's the fitting job that rules it out for me.

Maybe the door could use the metal, and the rest a simpler
(and cheaper alternative).

I have seen shops (mostly farm shops) using the same
29 ga galvalume 5-v (roofing metal) on the insides, but it is expensive.
(Currently $2.50 a running foot for 3' wide piece)

As well the sound reflected is quite loud. I have also
seen grinder grit causing rust to form on the panels
where it has been deposited.

tnx
Doug

Evan
12-29-2008, 12:24 PM
Aluminum flashing is pretty cheap and creasing the edges and crosses doesn't take but a couple of minutes per panel. I started out as a tin basher in the army and this sort of stuff is old hat.

The main thing when installing the flashing is that the panels cover the edges of the ones below so that the overlap is toward the bottom, like roofing shingles. To make it even more effective the edges of each panel should be bent down along the bottom and up along the top so they overlap to make a seal. It takes longer to explain that it does to do. Of course, aluminum flashing doesn't rust.

The paint is probably expensive but I would guess near the same price per sq ft as flashing. If you put flashing over the paint you would have a pretty decent fire door.

digger_doug
12-29-2008, 12:45 PM
"The main thing when installing the flashing is that the panels cover the edges of the ones below so that the overlap is toward the bottom, like roofing shingles. To make it even more effective the edges of each panel should be bent down along the bottom and up along the top so they overlap to make a seal. It takes longer to explain that it does to do. Of course, aluminum flashing doesn't rust."

See, now I learned something today, I always shyed away
from something like that, thinking it was time consuming.
tnx for the good description of how to do it.

Now that torker's problem has been solved...let's solve another one.

If a person used drywall only, what would the "r" value be.
I think it would xmit the cold thru the sheet, as it is a
gypsum product.

I have seen some farm type pole barn shops use 4' x 8' sheets
long wise of O.S.B. up to 4' then drywall above. The premise
being that O.S.B. takes the abuse from impact, above 4'
would be less abuse. I've got to assume there was fiberglass
or other insulation behind the wall sheeting.

tnx
Doug