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barts
12-31-2008, 06:26 PM
My 15" YMZ lathe originally had a coolant system, but this was removed by the previous owner. I'm considering adding such a system back in, but was wondering about coolant life, smell, etc. I found a website that shows using an inexpensive mini-submersible pump and a bucket; any thoughts?

http://www.bedair.org/Grizzly12x/GrizzlyG4003G5.html

Thanks -

- Bart

lane
12-31-2008, 06:58 PM
That will work. The main thing i have found out from years of use is .Use a synthetic coolant mix. I does not go bad and stink up the place are grow bacteria.

lazlo
12-31-2008, 07:41 PM
Nice job Bart. Looks a lot like the stock Little Giant flood coolant setup on the Wilton 7x12 bandsaw I just finished overhauling.


Use a synthetic coolant mix. I does not go bad and stink up the place are grow bacteria.

I know this has been asked a million times on PracticalMachinist, but I've never seen the same recommendation twice :)

What's a good synthetic coolant to use? I bought a gallon of Rustlick SynKool from Enco last month, and MickeyD has a gallon of LiquidIce he's holding for me. But is there such a thing as a synthetic coolant that doesn't rust the tool and doesn't eat the paint?

lenord
12-31-2008, 07:52 PM
I use a rustlick coolant, forget which one. I have to use a high concentration of coolant, but it does not rust the machinery at all...

Lenord

MickeyD
12-31-2008, 09:17 PM
I use synthetic coolant in my VMC and I like it. There are a couple of places where the coolant pools on top of a painted piece (on top of the tool changer and a couple of wire covers) and it has loosened that paint up some. Now, on the positive side, I have not had any rust issues, have not broken any taps, and surface finish is good. I think I will take a little paint issues on some parts after years of use vs. vices being rusted to the table, ways eaten up, your machine smelling like a cat litter box, and other related problems. Most machines need to be repainted after years of use, synthetic coolant just makes it a little easier.

MickeyD
12-31-2008, 09:20 PM
Lenord, I used to use Rustlick on my bandsaw and if it sat for more than a couple of days it would get really stinky. Switched to Liquid Ice HP and that problem went away.

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 10:18 PM
When I upgrade my mill I think I will add that...

Are Loc-Line nozzles actual spray nozzles, or do they just let stuff out?

Now I need to find coolant in smaller than 5 gallons. Kool Mist is in smalll packs from LMS.

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 10:22 PM
Have you seen these?-

http://grizzly.com/products/7-Gallon-Coolant-Tank-System/H8140

Not a bad price and a much better pump design,plug and play feature is nice too.

I haven't had too much luck with submersible pumps on lathes.Not enough capacity and they don't last long.Last one I bought cost $80,for just the pump.

This is the best water-sol coolant I have found.In ten years I have never had a batch go stinking where others had.

http://www.synlube-mi.com/Templates/Products/soluble_oils/coolant_king.htm

They also do full and semi-synthetics-

http://www.synlube-mi.com/products.htm

KBC carries their full line.

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 10:24 PM
Do they wear out because of a lack of a filter?

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 10:31 PM
Partly and partly because they use a rubber or plastic impellar that runs agaist a plastic housing.

The pumps like the Grizzly unit use a iron impellar and housing and the motor isn't submerged.No electrical to get soaked and no seals for tiny little flecks of metal to tear up.

Filtering return coolant 100% is difficult,unless you build a centrifuge type filter.The honest coolant pumps don't care if a little fine swarf gets in the inlet.

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 10:38 PM
Maybe you make your own pump? ITS A LATHE!

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 10:44 PM
I've built and worked on too many pumps,it's not THAT much fun anymore:)

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 10:48 PM
Well, it would be my first pump


Why not make a peristaltic pump? Its the kind used for pumping blood, no high precison, rotary table and lathe work. It would be totally unaffected by chips, could probably pump coolant full of chips.

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 11:01 PM
Well, it would be my first pump


Why not make a peristaltic pump? Its the kind used for pumping blood, no high precison, rotary table and lathe work. It would be totally unaffected by chips, could probably pump coolant full of chips.

BTDT,hose rots and cracks,coolant goes bye-bye all over the floor.

Well if you want to make a pump,just copy what works.That design with the motor up top and the impellar submerged has been around since 1914 at least and is still used today.Millions of machinetools can't be wrong:)

It would be mostly lathe work,with some RT work.

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 11:02 PM
Hmm seems like there must be an un-rottable hose material. It would not be too messy,.


TIme to scrounge plans.

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 11:10 PM
We have an old Marvel hacksaw at work which uses a piston pump.

Simple as dirt,two moving parts and has lasted nearly 80 years so far:)

barts
12-31-2008, 11:24 PM
We have an old Marvel hacksaw at work which uses a piston pump.

Simple as dirt,two moving parts and has lasted nearly 80 years so far:)

But a piston pump means check valves, and from steamboating I know rule #1 - keep the crap out of the checks! A piston pump is def. easy - 5/8" stainless rod running in 1/2" brass pipe w/ checks; the filter would need some care...
Good idea... hmmm.

- Bart

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 11:41 PM
But a piston pump means check valves, and from steamboating I know rule #1 - keep the crap out of the checks! A piston pump is def. easy - 5/8" stainless rod running in 1/2" brass pipe w/ checks; the filter would need some care...
Good idea... hmmm.

- Bart

The Pump on the old Marvel only has one.The piston is a leather cup,which passes four radial drilled holes in the cylinder wall near the bottom of the stroke.Coolant runs in,piston goes up and lifts coolant against the head gland.Check ball opens,coolant floods into a small resivoir,gravity takes it from there.Cylinder is bras, 2" bore and 4" stroke with a 7/16" rod IIRC.

I believe though the whole system relys on a small dam just before the return.The coolant builds up and over flows the dam to get into the return.Since metal swarf can't swim up stream it's "filtered"

macona
12-31-2008, 11:46 PM
Peristaltic pumps are low flow pumps. Not something you would want here.

A good little giant submersible works fine. You want a shaft drive pump. No mag drives here. Most LG pumps have cast impellers.

Another pump that would work good is a swamp cooler pump. They are designed like a coolant pump where the motor sits up out of the water with the pump section in the base.

But I would avoid flood if I could. I would use a spray mist system. You can get the Bijur tanks off ebay for $80 new. Plaza Machinery has complete units cheap now and then.

derekm
01-01-2009, 07:00 AM
Make a pump out of scrap.

Get a water pump out of a car engine then weld up an inline motor mounting out of bits of plate and scaffold tube and make a connecting shaft between an electric motor (from the same scrap pile, try and get a motor that does about1500- 3000rpm) using a bit of rod and some grubscrews...
Depending on car design you might need to make an piece to simulate the engine block (impellor surround) but again tube & plate weldments will do then made to a close fit about the impellor

lazlo
01-01-2009, 11:12 AM
There was an article in a recent HSM magazine where a guy made an impeller-driven pump. It wasn't a simple build by any stretch of the imagination.

Teenage_Machinist
01-01-2009, 02:41 PM
Was this before 2008?


How low is low flow? For the lathe I think a rapid stream of drops is by far enough. For a mill a bit more is wanted. But why not flood coolant?>

tslbogger
01-01-2009, 04:34 PM
You could use a chevy SB water pump. Backplate already in place. You just have to plug one outlet. Cheap as dirt

derekm
01-01-2009, 05:30 PM
Was this before 2008?

... But why not flood coolant?>

Religion :)

Orthodox HSM acolytes have foresworn flood coolant unless one has the special dispensation of Noah for the sacred practice of CNC. For Noah has fortold that after the Flood comes the Great mess. Notwithstanding this the initiated may on special occasion use the Mist. But it is still forbidden for water to touch aluminium or carbide, since one will cause great thunderclaps and the other clamatious shattering.
However there is a sect of heretics who have renounced the proscriptions of Noah and use the Flood for everything yea even unto Aluminium and carbide!

Beware the Coolant Inquisition

Derek the Heretic...

macona
01-01-2009, 05:36 PM
With flood you want a constant stream, especially if running carbide. Otherwise you will get lower tool life than running dry. You want enough flow to get good heat transfer.

Peristaltic pumps also pulsate as well.

Flood sucks unless you have a good way to enclose everything and unless you are running oil even the stuff that supposedly has rust preventatives seems to cause rust.

I have flood on my lathe and will only use oil in it. Got water based coolant in places where is should be and took forever to get it cleaned out.

Peter.
01-01-2009, 06:05 PM
There was an article in a recent HSM magazine where a guy made an impeller-driven pump. It wasn't a simple build by any stretch of the imagination.

I made an oil scavenge pump to pump oil from the turbo on my motorbike. Works pretty good and wasn't difficult at all - I just converted an internal oil pump from a small motorcycle engine. It would easily pump enough oil-based coolant for a lathe.

wierdscience
01-01-2009, 08:37 PM
Was this before 2008?


How low is low flow? For the lathe I think a rapid stream of drops is by far enough. For a mill a bit more is wanted. But why not flood coolant?>

Well for turning with carbide you either flood it or run it dry.Intermittent coolant is a bad thing,makes the carbide form micro cracks,then it flakes and,well it just sucks.

The more heat a machining operation puts into a part the more coolant is needed.Lathes and grinders need more than mills and drills,they need more than bandsaws.

I hate coolmist,unless there is a way to instantly vaccum the crap up and away from ones lungs.It WILL make you sick sooner or later.

Teenage_Machinist
01-01-2009, 10:01 PM
I mean flood coolmist. And only HSS.

macona
01-01-2009, 11:40 PM
I hate coolmist,unless there is a way to instantly vaccum the crap up and away from ones lungs.It WILL make you sick sooner or later.

I use the micro drop type systems. They dont create all that mist hanging around in the air.

lazlo
01-02-2009, 01:48 AM
I use the micro drop type systems. They dont create all that mist hanging around in the air.

Ditto. I have an Accu-Lube, a Trico Micro-Drop, and I made a couple of FogBuster heads for the pressurized Bijur Spraymist tanks you mentioned earlier.

The Accu-Lube system, with the frequency generator and the piston-pump dispenser is by far the best of the three systems. You can adjust it from 1 to 200 drops per minute, and you can adjust the size of the drops.

I spray Mobil Omicron (mineral-oil based lube), and you can barely tell it's coming out. I think I use about a tablespoon of oil in an hour of cutting.

Perfect for the home shop.

Duffy
01-02-2009, 10:57 AM
For an inexpensive, low-volume, water-based mist system, how about a reworked Waterpik. They put out a fair pressure, albeit pulsating, but a misting nozzle should smooth it out. Since it is powered by a shaded pole motor, a light dimmer would give some speed/volume control. Just a thought.

Teenage_Machinist
01-02-2009, 02:15 PM
Chevy SB pump... Is that :short block" or a pump off a Chevy SB?

barts
01-02-2009, 02:48 PM
I can understand how the mist systems would make less of a mess, but do they cool the chips? I was turning some scrap 3.25" mystery metal with carbide yesterday, and the chips sure weren't breaking - they came off blue and hot. Sometimes they were even sparking... seems like a bit of flood coolant would help here, or does the mist stuff prevent that as well?

For those of you who use oil, what do you do about the smoke? If I get my machine working at even 20% load, the volume of smoke generated is alarming if I'm using cutting oil...

- Bart

derekm
01-02-2009, 04:22 PM
Flood coolant can move chips - very useful in boring, parting and of course milling

Roy Andrews
01-03-2009, 12:48 AM
i use a white 35 gal chemical drum. in one bung i put a pipe in that runs about 1 inch from the bottom and in the other bung i put an air fitting. 5 psi of air will put out more than enough flow. i originally got a 5 gal pail of coolant that mixed 5 to 1 so that pretty much filled the drum. i can run for hours without running out. i catch the fluid in another drum and just switch the fittings when i run out. i have a homemade screen on the pipe and have noticed that pressure seems to push coolant through the crap better than a pump seems to suck it thru. i have the whole setup on wheels so that i can move it from machine to machine, only problem was the band saw which i had to put up on blocks so that it would be higher than the drums. not the most convenient system but i have never had a pump go bad.

macona
01-03-2009, 01:08 AM
Yep, the misters do cool the chips as well and blow the chips out of the way too. On my bijurs they have a tank that is pressurized by air. I usually use around 25psi. Air pressure pushes the cutting fluid in a line to the nozzle and is metered by a needle valve. The air and coolant is mixed at the very tip.

You get cooling by the air and by the evaporation of water (If using a water based coolant). Has worked well for me.

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 04:21 PM
I do not think a mister is the thing for me. No air compressor stays at home.
No room either.,


Where would I get a Chevy SB pump? And which pump is it? Cooling pump?

macona
01-03-2009, 11:55 PM
It would probably be better for you to get a swamp cooler pump. thats going to be a lot of work to use a water pump to make a coolant pump. And heck of a lot more expensive than a swamp cooler pump.

lane
01-04-2009, 12:19 AM
I just buy those cheap fountain pumps at Harbor freight . Add a hose and pipe to a nozzle . Usually Loc Line. Drop in 5 gallon bucket all for under $20.00 works for me.

barts
01-04-2009, 12:28 AM
I just buy those cheap fountain pumps at Harbor freight . Add a hose and pipe to a nozzle . Usually Loc Line. Drop in 5 gallon bucket all for under $20.00 works for me.

I'm going to try this... this one (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41287) is thirteen bucks.

- Bart

Teenage_Machinist
01-04-2009, 04:07 PM
That sounds good. Just need to have a good screen.


Please, can somebody tell me whether a Loc-Line nozzle sprays or just has a hole?

HSS
01-04-2009, 05:07 PM
Hey TM, Sent you a pm. check you messages

Pat

wierdscience
01-04-2009, 06:48 PM
That sounds good. Just need to have a good screen.


Please, can somebody tell me whether a Loc-Line nozzle sprays or just has a hole?

Well,if you insist:)

They don't spray,it's just a flexible conduit to carry liquid.

Cheaper alternative is to take a common Male pipe to hose barb adapter,say one for 1/4" tubing and solder a length of copper solid conductor wire (10ga) to the inside of the barbed end.That leaves about half the hole open for the flow.Slip a piece of 1/4 vinyl tubing on the outside of the barb and clamp it on.

The wire inside allows you to bend the tube into whatever shaper is needed and retain that shape while still passing coolant.

I've never been impressed with Loc-line,it doesn't last very long.

lazlo
01-04-2009, 06:51 PM
They don't spray,it's just a flexible conduit to carry liquid.


You can actually buy a variety of different spray heads for the Loc-line system -- they have flood nozzles (big open hole), stream (little hole), parallel streams (a bunch of little holes in a line) for bandsaws, etc. They also have semi-circular nozzles that are meant to be used on a spindle of mill: there are a series of tiny holes all around the semicircle so it sprays the workpiece from all sides.

My AccuLube system has a Loc-Line spray wand that's been modified with a coaxial internal hose for the coolant, and an air/coolant mixer head at the tip.

Teenage_Machinist
01-04-2009, 07:01 PM
They do not last long? Does the coolant screw them up?

Snap-loc and Snap Flow are alternatives that might work better.

Or do they just break or get damaged?

wierdscience
01-04-2009, 07:09 PM
They do not last long? Does the coolant screw them up?

Snap-loc and Snap Flow are alternatives that might work better.

Or do they just break or get damaged?

They crack and split,they also become loose usually the one joint that is supporting the rest.

Like Laz just mentioned they do make a variety of nozzles and fittings,but they can get pricey.

When the stuff is new and tight it works okay,but in situations like on a Bridgeport mill the least little chatter in a cut and they start to droop.

The best noxxle setup I have used was one on an old Sydney lathe.It used a series of rod stock arms and locking joints(similar to what's on an indicator stant) to hold a piece of copper tubing in place which was the nozzle.It just connected up to a flex hose.

lazlo
01-04-2009, 07:16 PM
They crack and split,they also become loose usually the one joint that is supporting the rest.

Yep, I've had the same problem. But Weird's a pro, and I use my machines maybe 10 hours a week, so a new Loc-Line should last an amateur awhile.

I've got some copper tubing nozzles from Unist, and those are pretty nice: you can bend them how you like, and they're pretty much bullet-proof. But my favorite are the armored flexible wound steel nozzles. I've only gotten them with used AccuLube heads, and I've never seen them at MSC et al, so I have no idea where they come from...

lane
01-04-2009, 07:53 PM
I'm going to try this... this one (http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=41287) is thirteen bucks.

- Bart

Yes that is what I use. have one on my KO Lee surface grinder and one on my Van Norman #12 For hose use that clear hose with the white nylon string embedded in it 1/4 inch hole buy it at hardware store are Home Depot.