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fullsizejohn
12-31-2008, 08:56 PM
Hey all,
First post here.
Not gonna ask the same question,"How do you like your Grizzly Lathe?" but I would like to put my hands on one.
Quick overview: I am a USNAVY trained machinist. Obviously the equipment we had was top notch,Leblond, Cincinatti, Wells Index,Clausing etc. Then I worked in another shop for about 8 years and we also had good equipment.
Since I changed careers a few years back i really find myself missing machine work. I am in the market for a small lathe 12x36 neighborhood. So Ive never ran or even been around one of the chinese lathes. Would like to see one in person before i commit to an order. Anyone in the central VIRGINIA area have a grizzly lathe i could drop by and see?

Teenage_Machinist
12-31-2008, 09:07 PM
I do not have a griz nor am I any where near you, but would share some things





Note One: The differrent lathes are often completely identical.
Note Two: Grizzly has better fit and finish than some other importers, even for identical machines, and has better manuals.
Note Three: Accuracy is often good. De burring and torquing are sometimes neglected. Dissassembly may be helpful.

wierdscience
12-31-2008, 09:55 PM
Hi,first let me say welcome!

I don't have a Grizzly lathe,but I do have a few pieces of their woodworking equipment of which I am happy.

They do carry a good supply of parts for their machines which is a plus.

Fasttrack
12-31-2008, 10:51 PM
I just have to put in a plug for buying used. You've run these machines and know what a good machine is, so why not see about finding a 12"-16" used lathe. You can go and inspect and, if your lucky, probably buy twice the quality that you could buy at grizzly for the same price.

Sparky_NY
01-01-2009, 11:28 AM
It may have changed but grizzly used to supply customer referrals to owners of their equipment on request. I quick call to them would see if this service is still offered.

PaulT
01-01-2009, 01:59 PM
Obviously the equipment we had was top notch,Leblond, Cincinatti, Wells Index,Clausing etc. Then I worked in another shop for about 8 years and we also had good equipment.

Yikes, prepare yourself for a big step down in fit, finish and rigidity if you decide to go with a chinese lathe. I was in a similar situation, learned on nice American iron but needed a lathe for my shop and was considering import as out here on the west coast nice US lathes are not easy to find.

The imports looked good in the catalogs, but the first time I saw one in person and put my hands on it, I almost puked realizing how close I had come to having to live with a big mistake, but I'm pretty "emotional" about my machines, so maybe I'm just too hung up on the look and feel of nice old american iron.

I have some import machines in my shop and they get the job done but are nothing I'm too excited about operating or owning. Having a chinese lathe after becoming used to US ones would have been too much to take though. I held out and eventually found a nice Clausing. Its the only really nice machine I have in the shop, but at least I have one.

If you do decide to go import though, talk to the guy that runs this company - http://www.machinetoolonline.com/ .

He's a straight shooter that is very knowledgeable about the various import lathes, and he backs up his products after the sale. He helped me get a part for one of my older import machines (not an easy thing to do) even though I haven't bought any machines from him.

Good luck-

Paul T.

Ries
01-01-2009, 03:08 PM
I get yelled at for saying this, but, you gotta compare apples to apples.

A new American made 12"x36" lathe is not really available, but the two closest lathes, the Monarch 10EE and the Hardinge HLVH, both cost more than $60,000.
IF, and its a big IF, you could buy a new Clausing, Leblond, Cinncinnati, or Monarch, Axelson, American Pacemaker, or similar american made lathe today, there is no question such a machine would cost you $50,000 to $100,000 in todays dollars, for a 12x36 sized lathe.

So when you say, those crummy $2500 chinese machines are no match for a $80,000 Clausing, well, as my kids would say "DUH!".

All $2500 to $4500 import lathes are similar, although its an urban legend that they are the SAME machine- there are probably 100 lathe factories in China, and seemingly similar machines often are very different.

But none of the $2500 lathes, be they from Grizzly, Enco, or JET, are really $50,000 lathes in disguise.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

You want a good chinese lathe, you can get em- but you pay for em. Personally, I think the JET lathes, at the high end, are better than the Grizzly lathes- that is the ZX series, which start at more than $10,000, and, with DRO and Collet closer, can hit $18,000 or $20,000 pretty quickly in the larger sizes.

If I was shopping for a 12x36 import lathe, I would be looking at a machine like this- Okay, its really a 14x40-
http://www.southern-tool.com/store/jet_zx_14_series_metal_working_lathe.html

It weighs 5000lbs, has a 7 1/2Hp motor, and, compared to the $50k plus price an american made NEW lathe would cost, if you could get one, is a pretty decent tool for the money. Seventeen grand, with taper, collet closer, and DRO.

I have been running a similar Jet ZX for about 5 years now, and I like it a lot. It is NO MATCH for a good sixties or fifties american made machine- but they dont make em anymore.

You want the closest equivalent to a new american made lathe you can get now, and you spend a LOT more money- Schaublin still makes manual lathes, as do a few other German, Swiss, and French companies. They are as good or better than any american lathe ever made. And, before import duties, shipping, and brokerage fees, they will run you well north of $50,000, depending on the strength of the dollar to the euro this week.

quasi
01-01-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't think Clausing is in the quality class of Monarch, American Pacemaker, Leblond ...

Davidhcnc
01-01-2009, 04:50 PM
"as do a few other German, Swiss, and French companies."

Ries, could you name European lathe companies.

I can think of Emco and Wabeco. What else is out there?



Edit Harrison UK

fullsizejohn
01-01-2009, 04:59 PM
All great comments guys. I appreciate it.

I have been searching the craigslist semi-local(250 miles) for a few months and it seems that i havent seen anything that suits but maybe I'll give it a bit longer and farther. I do hate the idea of getting 3k into a griz then seeing 2k south bend pop up the next week.
This is definately a "want" as apposed to a "need" so time is on my side.
thanks again

Fasttrack
01-01-2009, 06:12 PM
I get yelled at for saying this, but, you gotta compare apples to apples.

A new American made 12"x36" lathe is not really available, but the two closest lathes, the Monarch 10EE and the Hardinge HLVH, both cost more than $60,000.
IF, and its a big IF, you could buy a new Clausing, Leblond, Cinncinnati, or Monarch, Axelson, American Pacemaker, or similar american made lathe today, there is no question such a machine would cost you $50,000 to $100,000 in todays dollars, for a 12x36 sized lathe.

So when you say, those crummy $2500 chinese machines are no match for a $80,000 Clausing, well, as my kids would say "DUH!".

All $2500 to $4500 import lathes are similar, although its an urban legend that they are the SAME machine- there are probably 100 lathe factories in China, and seemingly similar machines often are very different.

But none of the $2500 lathes, be they from Grizzly, Enco, or JET, are really $50,000 lathes in disguise.

YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.




Absolutely. BUT - you might be surprised at how many times you can find one of those 50K+ lathes for 2K with more life left in them than the brand-new 2K lathes from China. Thats all I'm saying. And I aggree, you can get very good import machines, like Mori Seiko. :D

BlueChip
01-01-2009, 06:58 PM
Wonder how an Acra Turn 1340 compares?

Thanks,
Mark

demerrill
01-01-2009, 06:58 PM
I've one of these http://www.grizzly.com/products/g4003g
sitting on my carport awaiting transport to my walkout basement shop in Fletcher, NC. The Grizzly president happens to be a benchrest competition shooter and takes a personal interest in his gunsmith lathe offerings. So this model features NSK or Timken spindle bearings, a quick change toolpost, 1-5/8" spindle bore, outboard stock (gun barrel) support, heavy cast iron pedestals, and a means for tweaking tailstock alignment.

You may wish to research 12x36 Grizzly lathes on these forums:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12x36importlathes/?yguid=82731466

http://www.benchrest.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=17

David Merrill

BillH
01-01-2009, 07:04 PM
What do you mean you can't buy a new American made Southbend/Leblond?
For 20,000$ you can have one! Now would you buy one instead of a larger chinese lathe for less money?
http://www.southbendlathe.com/GS26LT.htm

.RC.
01-01-2009, 07:44 PM
Absolutely. BUT - you might be surprised at how many times you can find one of those 50K+ lathes for 2K with more life left in them than the brand-new 2K lathes from China.

about once every 20 years...

Teenage_Machinist
01-01-2009, 08:48 PM
All this depends on where you live, what sort of work you do, and how much you care for fit and finisnh.

If those Old American Iron lathes had Made In China stickers on them, we would blame them for threaded spindles, worn out beds, inexplicably soft metal, thin casting walls, plain bearings, ect. I am in the SF bay area and cannot tolerate anything larger than an SB 9 in my shop, nothing available. And I am in high school and while I definitely can save up enough money, I would not afford one if it was available.


Disassembly and cleaning can really help. Knowing about the machines can help as some have specific flaws, IE on the 9x20, the compound is extremely loose, on the 7x12 the gears are breakable and the thing is really hard to adjust.

I really use my lathe, an import, and have no trouble at all .


On the other hand, If you can afford Old Iron and can find it near you, get it.

wierdscience
01-01-2009, 09:17 PM
What do you mean you can't buy a new American made Southbend/Leblond?
For 20,000$ you can have one! Now would you buy one instead of a larger chinese lathe for less money?
http://www.southbendlathe.com/GS26LT.htm

Then again they also have a SB badged Taiwan machine for $150 less money of a design light years ahead of the old H10 they are currently pedaling.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/1440-1660evslathes.htm

The same lathe can be had elsewhere for much less money,wonder how many SB is selling these days?

Spin Doctor
01-01-2009, 09:28 PM
What do you mean you can't buy a new American made Southbend/Leblond?
For 20,000$ you can have one! Now would you buy one instead of a larger chinese lathe for less money?
http://www.southbendlathe.com/GS26LT.htm

I'm reasonably sure that all of SBs current offerings are rebadged imports. If I am wrong I will stand corrected

ckelloug
01-01-2009, 11:37 PM
Having made a minor mistake buying a locally available Bridgeport, I'd have to say that it might be better to be willing to have better equipment shipped. HGR industrial surplus in Ohio has their inventory on the web and most things seem relatively inexpensive. Even paying for shipping by truck, I am starting to get the impression that one might end up with better equipment for less money shipped from afar.

But, if you want a Grizzly, I'll mention I have a Birmingham 14x40 lathe which is similar and while there are some fit/finish issues and things that I don't like, it's a serviceable machine and of far better quality than the rode hard put away wet Bridgeport mill I bought locally without sufficient attention to detail.

That's my $.02

--Cameron

JCHannum
01-02-2009, 11:01 AM
Then again they also have a SB badged Taiwan machine for $150 less money of a design light years ahead of the old H10 they are currently pedaling.

http://www.southbendlathe.com/1440-1660evslathes.htm

The same lathe can be had elsewhere for much less money,wonder how many SB is selling these days?

South Bend is out of business. That 1440 and the $20,000 Heavy Ten are not available, the website is several years out of date.

Teenage_Machinist
01-02-2009, 01:10 PM
DIED? They DIED?


As in, South Bend is... DEAD? And they did nothing to their website? And they are DEAD?


I thought they were still alive making insanely expensive lathes that will never depreciate enough for HSMs.

But... DEAD>?

BillH
01-02-2009, 01:30 PM
DIED? They DIED?


As in, South Bend is... DEAD? And they did nothing to their website? And they are DEAD?


I thought they were still alive making insanely expensive lathes that will never depreciate enough for HSMs.

But... DEAD>?
They live on in my warn SB9c

Ries
01-02-2009, 01:38 PM
South Bend has been totally gone, as in auctioned off and empty buildings, for a year or two, but, for obvious reasons, they havent really been making very many lathes for ten years or so.

The simple fact is that it is CHEAPER to make a CNC lathe than a same sized manual lathe today, in any country but China, and, soon enough, probably there too.

A Haas or Romi Cnc lathe can be had in the 20" x 60" range for $20,000 to $40,000, depending on features, and a similar sized manual lathe from China is the same if not more.

Someone asked about who still makes manual lathes-

Well, in the USA, we have Monarch making the 10EE, maybe a dozen a year, almost all rebuilt from old castings, for $60K or more.
We have Hardinge making HLVH's, in similar small batches, also north of $50K.
And there is a company in California that makes oilfield lathes, undoubtedly above $50k, to order, but they dont mention where the castings are from.
http://www.lehmannlathe.com/

In canada, Standard Modern still makes lathes, a lot like the South Bend, and similarly priced to the most recent South Bends.
http://www.standard-modern.com/aboutus.html

And thats it for North America.
Period, all she wrote.

Of course, Haas, in Oxnard California, makes more CNC lathes every month than these 4 sell in a year, combined. And various other american CNC manufacturers also make hundreds of lathes.

Mori no longer makes manual lathes, as far as I know. Somebody in Japan probably does, but none of em are imported here- but the Koreans do make Mori copies, under licence. $25k to $30K, easy, plus tooling, here in the USA.

http://www.webbmachinery.com/Namseon/namseon_engine_lathes.htm

There are still good lathes made in Taiwan- but they also cost real money.

The Brazilians, mostly Nardini and Romi, still make some manual lathes as well, although the majority of their production is CNC these days...


Then, there are the eastern europeans- Lion, Summit, and Tos/Trens are all available here, usually in 20x60 sizes and up, usually starting at about $25 grand, and quickly heading north of 50 for larger sizes.

As for high quality toolroom lathes, there is Schaublin
http://www.daswiss.com/schaublinHighPrecisionLathes.htm

Weiler in Germany-
http://weiler.eu/390.html

Cazeneuve in France-
http://www.cato.fr/us/cazeneuv.htm

plus a few other euro models- I dont know if you can still get Hembrugs, or Nebels, or Grazianos, or HES, or a half dozen other Italian, French, or German makes, but my guess is, in Europe, you can. But the market here is so small, and the prices would be so high, that nobody bothers to import them.

None of these companies sells a manual lathe of any quality for less than twenty five grand, and most of them are a LOT more than that. Only the Chinese can come in any cheaper than that, and we all know the compromises they make to do so.

Roy Andrews
01-02-2009, 01:41 PM
i buy machines that most people would throw away. not because of lack of money (before i became disabled) but because i love to work on things and see how they work. i am only going to chime in and comment on the completly assanine love that a lot of people have for southbend and bridgeport. i have rebuilt a number of southbend lathes 9", 10k, heavy 10 and an old 13". i currently have a 9", 10k and a 15" clausing that i purchased for $250 dollars (required a lot of cleaning, making of replacement parts and tweaking) and i would use the clausing before any southbend that i have ever used. and my experience with bridgeport although limmited( i have rebuilt 3 currently have 2) if you can find one in good condition at a reasonable price good luck. i have seen a lot of people screwed. and for what they simply are not that great of a machine. for most of our use any machine with a little tlc will do satisfactory work. when i really want to do serious milling i go to my KT 205 s12, now thats a mill.

yeh i have asbestos undies

gnm109
01-02-2009, 02:48 PM
i buy machines that most people would throw away. not because of lack of money (before i became disabled) but because i love to work on things and see how they work. i am only going to chime in and comment on the completly assanine love that a lot of people have for southbend and bridgeport. i have rebuilt a number of southbend lathes 9", 10k, heavy 10 and an old 13". i currently have a 9", 10k and a 15" clausing that i purchased for $250 dollars (required a lot of cleaning, making of replacement parts and tweaking) and i would use the clausing before any southbend that i have ever used. and my experience with bridgeport although limmited( i have rebuilt 3 currently have 2) if you can find one in good condition at a reasonable price good luck. i have seen a lot of people screwed. and for what they simply are not that great of a machine. for most of our use any machine with a little tlc will do satisfactory work. when i really want to do serious milling i go to my KT 205 s12, now thats a mill.

yeh i have asbestos undies


I admire your ability to do rebuilds on older machinery. Certainly you are aware that not everyone has the ability, knowledge, patience or time to do the rebuilds you are doing.

I have the ability, I just don't have the desire or time. I recall how I rebuilt a 4" X 12" Parks Wood Plane in 1971. I still have it but I don't recall the experience with much fondness. It took me three months and a gallon of 70% phosphoric acid to remove the rust and get things working and I still had to have the table surface ground by a shop.

When it came time to find a lathe, I looked everywhere I could think of locally and only saw totally worn out junk at a couple of dealers. When I got finished looking at worn out machinery, my new Enco 13 X 40 lathe looked pretty good for $2,000. that was back in 1994. They more than that now of course.

I'd much rather have a Monarch 10EE but I'd have to mortgage my house. I guess you could say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

JCHannum
01-02-2009, 03:22 PM
Yes, South Bend is dead and gone several years ago.

Monarch does not build the 10EE, but rebuilds them. The last price I heard was $80,000, but that is a year or so ago, it is probably higher now. For that you will get updated electronics, but the bed and associated parts will be reground and scraped. It will be as accurate as when new, but it might not be regrindable once it has appreciable wear.

I seem to recall hearing that Hardinge has made, or will soon be making its last batch of HLVH lathes, so they will shortly not be available new any longer as well.

Your Old Dog
01-02-2009, 03:49 PM
I wouldn't normally recommend this but if I had your technical savvy about machines I'd most definitely look for a used American iron. I won't do it because I have no (or little) idea of what I'm looking at. This is a purchase that might be worth some patience and willingness to drive a few hundred miles to bring one home.

Spend a lot of time on Craigslist.org. If you do a Control T while highlighted on New York for instance I think it will show you the ads in the entire state. Otherwise, you have to go by the city

If you do end up with new chicom stuff make sure you completely disassemble your new lathe to make sure most of the sand from the casting is cleaned out. I have a RungFoo mill and that was a problem.

Welcome to the board, hope you enjoy your stay.

Roy Andrews
01-02-2009, 04:32 PM
I admire your ability to do rebuilds on older machinery. Certainly you are aware that not everyone has the ability, knowledge, patience or time to do the rebuilds you are doing.

I have the ability, I just don't have the desire or time. I recall how I rebuilt a 4" X 12" Parks Wood Plane in 1971. I still have it but I don't recall the experience with much fondness. It took me three months and a gallon of 70% phosphoric acid to remove the rust and get things working and I still had to have the table surface ground by a shop.

When it came time to find a lathe, I looked everywhere I could think of locally and only saw totally worn out junk at a couple of dealers. When I got finished looking at worn out machinery, my new Enco 13 X 40 lathe looked pretty good for $2,000. that was back in 1994. They more than that now of course.

I'd much rather have a Monarch 10EE but I'd have to mortgage my house. I guess you could say there's no such thing as a free lunch.

i completly understand that most people dont have the skill, time or patience to do a rebuild but most important they just want to make chips. i guess i didn't express myself well what i wanted to say was that for most people any machine is better than a worn out "Name Brand" and that buying old used is a crap shoot if you just want to make parts.

Teenage_Machinist
01-02-2009, 06:25 PM
do they still make any parts or anything?//


It seems very weird that a CNC lathe is cheaper to make. It makes no sense at all considering that a manual lathe is just the base of a CNC machine that also needs the uber-expensive control, ballscrews, ect.


I am about 16 and using Chinese equipment. By the time I am as old as most of you are there will be no American iron left and HSM's will be using old Hardinge VMC's!


Which brings me worry. I doubt that the big CNC machines will ever depreciate to be affordable to HSMs before they are made obsolete electronically or become truly clapped-out. Clapped-out ness is worse for a CNC i bet than for a manual machine.


What if the Chinese imports are thrown down. Soon there may be no hope for us but Over the Sea.

Ries
01-02-2009, 06:38 PM
Actually, the electronic controls are what is uber cheap- its GEARS that cost a lot of money.

In quantity, electronics cost pennies.
But making gear drives, and using them to drive lead screws, is a time and money intensive machining job, no matter how big your factory.

Then, for a manual lathe to be precise, it usually must be handscraped and fitted by a very skilled, experienced craftsman- minimum of 5 to 10 years experience. Not many of those guys around anymore.

Meanwhile, a CNC lathe uses an off the shelf variable speed motor for the drive, and off the shelf ball screws or similar linear movement devices- the assembly labor is less, the parts cost is less, and the amount of skill required in manufacturing is less as well.

I cant count how many guys on this, and other forums, are looking for the exact change gear to make a certain thread- and to have one made, from scratch, can cost $500 to $1000 for ONE GEAR.
Whereas with CNC, you just program it in. All thread pitches are the same to it.

I know a couple different guys who bought new CNC lathes, and insisted they wanted manual control as well- and both Haas and Romi make such lathes. Both guys found that after the first week, they never touched the manual controls- they learned to do everything they did manually, and more, using the electronics. And these are guys who do oddball, one off stuff every day, not mass production.

lane
01-02-2009, 06:39 PM
A lot of people want to plug in and make chips not rebuild machines . Also some times you have to have some machines in order to rebuild a machine . So if you aint got getting something to fix is not a good answer.
Their is good iron out their but where and how far away. you may in a life time find a piece are two but its like winning the lottery you here who does ,but how many lost you will never know. If I need a piece of machinery I start studding up on what Chinese I can buy and use if I rum across something else that is nice but unexpected.

fasto
01-02-2009, 10:44 PM
Someone asked about who still makes manual lathes-


F.W. Derbyshire still makes manual lathes in Shrewsbury, MA, less than 3 miles from here. They're "watchmakers" lathes, though, and they do make a CNC version.

(I think I posted this before, or I'm having real bad deja vu.. :cool: )
http://www.fwderbyshire.com/ is their history site.
Current models are at http://www.fwderbyshireinc.com/
http://www.fwderbyshireinc.com/images/402_460_and_058.jpg

nheng
01-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Jumping in late, I'd second what Fastrack first said about going with a used machine, especially with your background. You might try Mason Mechanical labs in Salem, VA. www.machinetoolsforsale.com I have no experience with the gentleman but do with a friend of his who rebuilds machine tools and spindles professionally.

Fasto, That is one sweet little machine. Sort of like a mini version of a Hardinge DV59.

Den

BigBoy1
01-02-2009, 10:58 PM
I sent you a PM about a South Bend Lathe.

Bill

macona
01-03-2009, 12:22 AM
Yes, South Bend is dead and gone several years ago.

Monarch does not build the 10EE, but rebuilds them. The last price I heard was $80,000, but that is a year or so ago, it is probably higher now. For that you will get updated electronics, but the bed and associated parts will be reground and scraped. It will be as accurate as when new, but it might not be regrindable once it has appreciable wear.

I seem to recall hearing that Hardinge has made, or will soon be making its last batch of HLVH lathes, so they will shortly not be available new any longer as well.

For around $60k you get a reground bed. For $80k you get a new bed. They have new castings for the Saddle and Bed. The only two parts that really wear.

macona
01-03-2009, 12:33 AM
do they still make any parts or anything?//


It seems very weird that a CNC lathe is cheaper to make. It makes no sense at all considering that a manual lathe is just the base of a CNC machine that also needs the uber-expensive control, ballscrews, ect.


I am about 16 and using Chinese equipment. By the time I am as old as most of you are there will be no American iron left and HSM's will be using old Hardinge VMC's!


Which brings me worry. I doubt that the big CNC machines will ever depreciate to be affordable to HSMs before they are made obsolete electronically or become truly clapped-out. Clapped-out ness is worse for a CNC i bet than for a manual machine.


What if the Chinese imports are thrown down. Soon there may be no hope for us but Over the Sea.

Its all supply and demand. Very little industrial demand for manual lathes. And a CNC lathe is much simpler to build mechanically speaking. Instead of a gearbox for the head you have a brushed or brushless servo drive. No gear train to a threading gearbox and no threading gear box. No apron full of clutches and gears for power feeds. No ground leadscrew for threading. No compound. Two ball screws that are mass produced by the lowest bidder control X and Z. No scraping of ways. Like the Haas TL-1 many use stock linear guideways on the bed.

The Haas HPCL is basically a hardinge HLV made CNC. The TL-1 is a very simple machine. Both can be ran manually from handwheels. You do loose a bit of sensitivity doing this. I met a guy locally that has a TL-1 and rarely if ever uses it manually.

CNC machines are kinda meant to be used and abused and thrown away. I am looking at a VMC to replace my CNC as we speak. There are good deals to be had still. There will still be a lot of old iron around in the future. Especially with how low scrap is now.

wierdscience
01-03-2009, 12:51 AM
Toolmex also still makes lathes,Polish I do believe.

Pointed this one out awhile back,still don't have a number pinned down,but surely over $50,000.

Nice feature is no stinking gap bed.

http://www.toolmex.com/products/machine-tools/manual-lathes/index.cfm

noah katz
01-03-2009, 03:03 AM
"No scraping of ways."

Don't you still need the carriage to move uniformly in a straight line?

macona
01-03-2009, 03:34 AM
They mounting surfaces for the rails can be ground.

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 03:51 PM
Well, basically that adds up to a bunch of reasons why a modern manual lathes need a redesign, not why manual is more expensive.


Sieg uses variable speed drives for their smaller hobby machines. Frankly I think that those are more expensive. W/e. No reason why that cannot go on a manual machine for all sizes and be cheaper it just means a knob and not a digital control.

Same for those ways you talk about, and the ball screws. Frankly I think I am talking about giant Sherline lathes, they are not ballscrews but they use simplistic designs. Seems like CNC would have the same need for scraped ways as a manual, which might be no need. The compound obviously adds some cost but really just how much. Plus it is a luxury not a necessity--- Sherline Taig and Unimat do not come with them stock.


This leaves the threading train and the power feeds. The threading train, while costly, is not overly complicated. If made with stock gears and a simple banjo piece, the cost would not seem too terribly high. The Sherline threading attachment costs 125 dollars. QCGB's are really expensive but not really needed on an amateurs lathe.

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 03:58 PM
Well, basically that adds up to a bunch of reasons why a modern manual lathes need a redesign, not why manual is more expensive.


Sieg uses variable speed drives for their smaller hobby machines. Frankly I think that those are more expensive. W/e. No reason why that cannot go on a manual machine for all sizes and be cheaper it just means a knob and not a digital control.

Same for those ways you talk about, and the ball screws. Frankly I think I am talking about giant Sherline lathes, they are not ballscrews but they use simplistic designs. Seems like CNC would have the same need for scraped ways as a manual, which might be no need. The compound obviously adds some cost but really just how much. Plus it is a luxury not a necessity--- Sherline Taig and Unimat do not come with them stock.


This leaves the threading train and the power feeds. The threading train, while costly, is not overly complicated. If made with stock gears and a simple banjo piece, the cost would not seem too terribly high. The Sherline threading attachment costs 125 dollars. QCGB's are really expensive but not really needed on an amateurs lathe.

BillH
01-03-2009, 04:26 PM
Well, basically that adds up to a bunch of reasons why a modern manual lathes need a redesign, not why manual is more expensive.


Sieg uses variable speed drives for their smaller hobby machines. Frankly I think that those are more expensive. W/e. No reason why that cannot go on a manual machine for all sizes and be cheaper it just means a knob and not a digital control.

Same for those ways you talk about, and the ball screws. Frankly I think I am talking about giant Sherline lathes, they are not ballscrews but they use simplistic designs. Seems like CNC would have the same need for scraped ways as a manual, which might be no need. The compound obviously adds some cost but really just how much. Plus it is a luxury not a necessity--- Sherline Taig and Unimat do not come with them stock.


This leaves the threading train and the power feeds. The threading train, while costly, is not overly complicated. If made with stock gears and a simple banjo piece, the cost would not seem too terribly high. The Sherline threading attachment costs 125 dollars. QCGB's are really expensive but not really needed on an amateurs lathe.

An electronic speed control is far simpler and cheaper to mass produce than a gear head. And far more convenient than changing belts.

noah katz
01-03-2009, 04:56 PM
So why can't we buy Chinese CNC lathes that are cheaper than manual?

BillH
01-03-2009, 05:46 PM
So why can't we buy Chinese CNC lathes that are cheaper than manual?
High Quality ball screws and double nuts cost a bit more. The Nema mounts are not mass produced at same numbers as your generic hand wheels.
Well, for your argument, I think it would be easier to look at Sherline and Taig mills and lathes. Whats the difference between a manual sherline lathe and one that is CNC ready? Whats the cost difference?

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 09:06 PM
Manual Sherline already has headstock swinging taper capability, optional compound rest available. It is a 3x18 lathe or so, riser blocks expand it and it can be used as a milling machine with a vertical column.


Sherline uses a variable speed motor. Taig might be a better comparison.


Long Bed lathe is 675 dollars. Threading Attachment (used without motor though hacks for using it with motor exist) is 125, it consists of 2 banjos, a bunch of gears (additional gears available, standard enough) and some small bits. SHERLINES HAVE NO HALF-NUT< NO APRON. and no power feed.
Chucks are 130 each for the larger size. Steady rest 40 bucks.

So a Sherline manual lathe with chucks, threading, steady is $1075.
Of that 210 is the speed control and motor, I think.

A CNC ready lathe is 855, that means motor mounts and couplings. It may also include the three-jaw chuck already.

A turnkey CNC including a new computer (specs unknown) is $2,275. Add 260 bucks for chucks.


A sherline lathe is the closest thing to a CNC lathe gone manual, I think.

macona
01-04-2009, 04:23 AM
Well, basically that adds up to a bunch of reasons why a modern manual lathes need a redesign, not why manual is more expensive.


Sieg uses variable speed drives for their smaller hobby machines. Frankly I think that those are more expensive. W/e. No reason why that cannot go on a manual machine for all sizes and be cheaper it just means a knob and not a digital control.

Same for those ways you talk about, and the ball screws. Frankly I think I am talking about giant Sherline lathes, they are not ballscrews but they use simplistic designs. Seems like CNC would have the same need for scraped ways as a manual, which might be no need. The compound obviously adds some cost but really just how much. Plus it is a luxury not a necessity--- Sherline Taig and Unimat do not come with them stock.


This leaves the threading train and the power feeds. The threading train, while costly, is not overly complicated. If made with stock gears and a simple banjo piece, the cost would not seem too terribly high. The Sherline threading attachment costs 125 dollars. QCGB's are really expensive but not really needed on an amateurs lathe.

Knob and digital control are about the same thing. Most brushless drives have both built in. If not and its just a analog control add a ~$50 board and you now have digital control through PWM or Step/Dir.

The Haas TL-1 is about the closest thing to a giant sherline there is. Very simple castings. Very simple machine. Can be used manually or CNC. Compound is not even an option. Not needed when you can program it to cut tapers for you in semi auto mode.

The Sherline is very cheaply made. Aluminum extrusions allow them to make it cheap and fast. As soon as you start scaling a machine prices increase exponentially. Patterns cost money. Cast Iron is not cheap and its hard to get castings that big in the US because of environmental reasons. Bigger, Heavier bearings. It all adds up.

No one really cares about the hobby market. China is pushing out tons of little lathes that will do what most want from them. Sherline is not even a one trick horse. They have diversified into many different products and fields.

CNC or manual machines can be made using linear guide ways and no scraping is needed. Linear slides can be used for both the cross feed and Z. Scraping is not the end all to be flat or accurate. A ground bed is just as accurate as a scraped bed. Both my 10EE and my mill run on ground ways.

Pic below of a magazine ad showing 10EE beds being ground.

The gear train for a manual lathe is very complicated if done so there are no change gears and allowing feed separate from the threading. Here are the basic drawings from the Patent on the original 10EE. This is a lathe for an industrial environment. No one wants to be wasting time with change gears if they can avoid it.

There are replacements for a gearbox. Some manual machines are available with an electronic gearbox. Enter your feed or thread pitch on the control and go. But these machines are in the $30k+ range. Same as a CNC machine.

It comes down to there is very little interest in a commercial manual lathe when you can get a CNC version for about the same price. Simplified machine with electronic controls = Complex machine with complicated mechanical controls.



http://i429.photobucket.com/albums/qq13/efficientvelo/untitled-1.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/Headstock10EE.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/Quadrant10EE.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/RoundDialThreadBox10EE.jpg

macona
01-04-2009, 04:29 AM
Manual Sherline already has headstock swinging taper capability, optional compound rest available. It is a 3x18 lathe or so, riser blocks expand it and it can be used as a milling machine with a vertical column.


Sherline uses a variable speed motor. Taig might be a better comparison.


Long Bed lathe is 675 dollars. Threading Attachment (used without motor though hacks for using it with motor exist) is 125, it consists of 2 banjos, a bunch of gears (additional gears available, standard enough) and some small bits. SHERLINES HAVE NO HALF-NUT< NO APRON. and no power feed.
Chucks are 130 each for the larger size. Steady rest 40 bucks.

So a Sherline manual lathe with chucks, threading, steady is $1075.
Of that 210 is the speed control and motor, I think.

A CNC ready lathe is 855, that means motor mounts and couplings. It may also include the three-jaw chuck already.

A turnkey CNC including a new computer (specs unknown) is $2,275. Add 260 bucks for chucks.


A sherline lathe is the closest thing to a CNC lathe gone manual, I think.

We have a CNC training lathe based on a sherline. Its tiny, very tiny.

Anyone who would spends $2500 for a CNC sherline is nuts.

I know where a little 9" Hercus CNC lathe with 8 tool changer with dedicated control for $1500. You can actually do something with that... I will post a pic when I see it again.

Heres the Sherline:

http://i398.photobucket.com/albums/pp69/TechShop/Machine%20Shop/IMGP0897.jpg

GKman
01-04-2009, 08:26 AM
For $174.40 fly Northwest from Richmond to Kansas City. Rent a car, visit the World War 1 Memorial, The Harley Sportster assembly plant and the Pony Express Museum. I'm half an hour north of the airport. Come up and run my Grizzly 4003 for as long as you want and I have a hunch that you'll buy one. Or keep listing to the debating society here ad infinitum. Easy choice.

Teenage_Machinist
01-04-2009, 02:07 PM
I always wondered why Sherline was able to keep pwning the Chinese industry. Their machines are quite simple. I wonder if they could be made bigger. Apparently not.

Drawings;;; That is REALLLLY complicated!


Suggestion for carraige feed: Why not just have an auxilliary leadscrew for power feed? It does not need to be precise, and could be ridiculously simple.

macona
01-04-2009, 07:25 PM
Sherline is nowhere near pwning the chinese lathe industry. The chinese turn out many time the amount of lathes out of cast iron, bigger and just as precise as the Sherline. With features standard like a motor, compound, and threading. Cast iron is good. Cast dampens vibrations very well.

Sherline is not the only little lathe manufacturer out there. Look at Tig as well. It is slightly higher capacity. It you have ever seen Sherline in person you just dont realize how tiny they are. They are basically a cheap watchmakers lathe barely a fraction the cost of a new Levin.

The 10EE and many others have a separate feed rod just for the feeds. In the case of a 10EE its a 3/4" round rod with a keyway down the length. It passes through bearing blocks in the apron and a worm rides on it. This powers the apron for carriage feed and cross feed The rod is part 154 in the drawings below. Also not pert 402. Its a oil pump that pumps way oil to the saddle, cross slide, and cross slide screw bearing.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/ApronDiagram.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/ApronCrossSection.jpg

gellfex
01-04-2009, 09:56 PM
I'm curious about the Grizzly's, how are they delivered, in a bunch of parts? How heavy do you think the bed of a 12 x 24 is? I would need to skid it down plywood on a stairs into my basement. I did this to a 10" Logan 200, but in parts, and it weighs half what a 12" would. I hang a cable hoist from the joists to assemble my tools.

This thread has me thinking again, it's hard to decide if my old USA iron just isn't worth the PITA of the small bore, leather belt, lack of quick change, and it's other quirks. It does the job good enough for my needs and makes me a living, and I bought it 20 years ago for $400.

macona
01-04-2009, 10:00 PM
My little grizzly was truck freighted. I had to go to a depot to pick it up. You can pay a bit more and have lift gate service and they will bring it to your door. After that its your problem.

They come assembled on a pallet.

BillH
01-04-2009, 10:12 PM
They are shipping my X3 via UPS freight. Grizzly will add in Lift Gate service for an additional 33$. I think I will call up UPS Freight directly and ask them how much Lift Gate service is, might be cheaper!

gellfex
01-04-2009, 11:17 PM
Fully assembled huh? I was remembering a thread where someone was describing having to assemble their newly arrived baby. I suppose it wasn't Grizzly. I do shudder to think about trying to tear it down to movable components in the driveway. Guess I wouldn't order it now, that would be cold work!

Paying for the lift gate would be easier but not cheaper than my having to rent a trailer to get it home, I don't have a pickup. I love renting those bike trailers from U-haul with the ramps for $15/day to do major hauling.