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Pherdie
01-03-2009, 02:01 AM
I just noticed (and maybe this has been mentioned, sorry) that Harbor Freight is now selling two versions of the Sieg CNC mills w/ demo software.

Can anyone tell me how they compare to other Seig CNC offerings (identical, variant??) and as to pricing??

Thanks.

Liger Zero
01-03-2009, 12:09 PM
What is this "demo" software? If I'm gonna shell out that much money it had better come with a stable usable software package that doesn't evaporate after 90 days.

lazlo
01-03-2009, 12:13 PM
Are these the same Sieg CNC machines that John's been posting?

Can you apply the 20% off coupon to them? I think Bill said you can use the 20% coupon on a special order?

Does the spindle have less than a tenth runout :D

mochinist
01-03-2009, 12:17 PM
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66052
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66051

Demo version of MACH software included.

Direct drive NEMA 34 hybrid stepper motors
Three stepper drivers for the main X, Y, and Z axes, and an extra stepper driver for the fourth axis (pre-wired with external socket)
1000 watt closed loop brushless DC spindle motor
Variable speed spindle under full CNC control
Gearless toothed belt spindle drive
All three axes have limit switches and homing
Optionally isolate the machine from the computer with the C11G parallel interface board
Bedways are fully covered
Emergency E-stop switch and chuck guard switch
Overall dimensions: 33.5" min. width to 45.1" max. width x 35.4" deep x 37" high
Demo version of MACH software included. For a licensed version of the software please click on the following: ArtSoft USA (http://www.machsupport.com/) or Small CNC Support (http://www.smallcncsupport.com/)

ITEM 66051-0VGA


$4999.99

lazlo
01-03-2009, 12:27 PM
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=66051

Wow, that is the KX-3 (CNC'd Sieg X3) that John's been posting about!

Harbor Freight's got it for $5,000 - 20% = $4,000.

Smithy is selling the KX-3 it for $4,979 with free shipping. Hopefully there'll be a price war :)

http://www.smithy.com/product_order.php?cid=11&scid=16&pid=1006

radkins
01-03-2009, 12:29 PM
Can you apply the 20% off coupon to them? I think Bill said you can use the 20% coupon on a special order?

:D


I called HF about using the coupon to buy a lathe and was told "no it is good for in-stock merchandise only" I then tried to explain that several people had said they did use them for special order items but I was told flatly that if it was not on the floor then the coupon did not apply, at least that is what they told me on the phone. A couple of days later I was in the store to buy a couple of other items and at the checkout I casually said I don't suppose I could use this coupon on a special order lathe could I? The girl at the checkout said I don't see why not lets ask the manger, who then told us that the instock only clause meant if they were sold out and yes it would be good on a special order lathe. So the moral of this story is that if they tell you it is not good on special order DON'T give up, ask to speak with the manager or come back another time and ask someone else!

radkins
01-03-2009, 12:31 PM
Wow, that is the KX-3 (CNC'd Sieg X3) that John's been posting about!

Harbor Freight's got it for $5,000 - 20% = $4,000.

Smithy is selling the KX-3 it for $4,979 with free shipping. Hopefully there'll be a price war :)

http://www.smithy.com/product_order.php?cid=11&scid=16&pid=1006


But is there a valid 20% off coupon out there right now?

lazlo
01-03-2009, 12:36 PM
The one I have expired December 31, but the retailers are hurting so bad because of the recession, MSC, Enco, Harbor Freight et al are sending coupons out like confetti.

mochinist
01-03-2009, 12:53 PM
The one I have expired December 31, but the retailers are hurting so bad because of the recession, MSC, Enco, Harbor Freight et al are sending coupons out like confetti.I just watched my Dad use a expired coupon at Bass Pro Shops the other day, I think it had expired a month ago:eek: Mind you the guy is a little bit more aggresive with his negotiations than most, but I have watched him get managers at almost every store out there and get discounts. You definitely have to be prepared to walk away though, they usually wont let your feet hit the parking lot before they budge.

radkins
01-03-2009, 12:57 PM
they usually wont let your feet hit the parking lot before they budge.


I have a cousin that is a car salesman at a Chevy dealer and he said most salesman will not let you walk away as long as they can make even a few dollars from you. He said he has taken as little as $40 in commission before letting a customer go, as he put it even $40 is better than watching him drive away!

sidneyt
01-03-2009, 01:24 PM
"Can you apply the 20% off coupon to them? I think Bill said you can use the 20% coupon on a special order?"

Yes, perhaps you could get the 20% off if it was a special order item, but it is not listed as such. Special orders do not include everything HF has in its catalog.

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/html/special_orders/index.html

SGW
01-03-2009, 01:46 PM
The demo version of Mach3 is fully functional, forever, except that programs are limited to 500 lines of GCode. The license is $175 or something (the price just went up 10%).

John Stevenson
01-03-2009, 02:00 PM
The KX3 and KX1 that Harbor Freight advertises is the exact same one as sold in the UK.
The Smithy one is mechanically the same but comes with a form of Linux and EMC on it, other than that I can't comment as I have no experience of the Smithy software or what comes in the package.

The reason it's shipped with the demo version is that this same machine is shipped world wide, There are quite a few in the Russian State school system, some in Australia, South America and the Far East.
If they were to ship with licensed copies of Mach3 there would be no way of knowing who was ripping it off.

When we were first doing this exercise and in all fairness to Sieg themselves, Sieg wanted a dongled version off Art to stop any software theft but we worked out that this was the best way to approach it. Many new machine owners already have a copy anyway.

.

Liger Zero
01-03-2009, 02:02 PM
Ok that's not so bad actually. I was picturing the machine becoming a worthless casting when the trial period ran out and being forced to spend $XXXX on a control program.

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 03:56 PM
Go to Mini Lathe.com--- He has a review. http://www.mini-lathe.com/KX3/KX3-2.htm


The thing has a one shot oiler, can have a coolant pump. Collets are OZ25 wierdness- a spring collet.

There is the KX1 which is based on the X1 Micro Mill. I have an X1. IT HAS SEVERE RIGIDITY PROBLEMS! the CNC version may be better. The thing has the same X and Y as the Mini Mill, and may be even better.

jacampb2
01-03-2009, 04:16 PM
it's cute...



$5k though? No way I would drop that, I would convert a manual mini first...

Teenage_Machinist
01-03-2009, 04:32 PM
Well, it's turnkey. And a CNC'd mini will still cost a fair amount.

John Stevenson
01-03-2009, 04:54 PM
Go to Mini Lathe.com--- He has a review. http://www.mini-lathe.com/KX3/KX3-2.htm


The thing has a one shot oiler, can have a coolant pump. Collets are OZ25 wierdness- a spring collet.

There is the KX1 which is based on the X1 Micro Mill. I have an X1. IT HAS SEVERE RIGIDITY PROBLEMS! the CNC version may be better. The thing has the same X and Y as the Mini Mill, and may be even better.

The KX1 IS NOT based on an X1,

None of the castings are shared with the X1 , all are new to the KX1. If you look at the base of the column on an X1, it is in two parts, a bottom swivel and the column that bolts to this to allow it to swivel.

On the KX1 the column is a massive U shaped casting that bolts to the base by 4 bolts, just like an X3 manual mill.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/KX1_column.jpg

Here's a shot of what's inside a KX1 with the fancy bits removed.

.

Dawai
01-05-2009, 02:42 PM
John, I wonder why they used a gas strut instead of a sash-type counter weight? Looks cool thou..

As far as expensive cnc software.. the linuxcnc software is coming of age.

Teenage_Machinist
01-05-2009, 03:03 PM
WTF! X1s do not have swivels! And that looks exactly like an x1 with the upgrade long y axis and long table, cncifyed. It is definitelybased on an X1 and will probalby have the same lack of rigidity.

Thomas Staubo
01-05-2009, 04:23 PM
Go to Mini Lathe.com--- He has a review... ...Collets are OZ25 wierdness...


The KX3 reviewed uses OZ25 (weirdness:rolleyes: ) collets, but it's not stated who is selling that machine that was reviewed.
.
The KX3 sold in the UK by ArcEuroTrade has a normal R8 spindle (as a sidenote, KX1 has a MT2 spindle).
.
Harbour freight is now selling these machines, but I cannot see mentioned what spindle taper these have.




There is the KX1 which is based on the X1 Micro Mill. I have an X1. IT HAS SEVERE RIGIDITY PROBLEMS! the CNC version may be better. The thing has the same X and Y as the Mini Mill, and may be even better.

The KX1 IS NOT based on an X1,
None of the castings are shared with the X1 , all are new to the KX1. If you look at the base of the column on an X1, it is in two parts, a bottom swivel and the column that bolts to this to allow it to swivel.
On the KX1 the column is a massive U shaped casting that bolts to the base by 4 bolts, just like an X3 manual mill.

WTF! X1s do not have swivels! And that looks exactly like an x1 with the upgrade long y axis and long table, cncifyed. It is definitelybased on an X1 and will probalby have the same lack of rigidity.

Teen and John, you are talking of two different machines... :rolleyes:
The X1 has a column bolted straight to the base, but the Super X1 has a column which can swivel to the left or right (like the X2).

But although the KX1 "looks" similar to the X1, it does not have to behave the same regarding rigidity, that I do not know.
According to the pics I have seen the KX1 may be "based" somewhat on the X1, but that does not mean it suffers the same problems regarding stiffness or rigidity.
Again, it does not look "exactly like an X1" as Teen said. The base is clearly different, and the column also looks different to me.


.

John Stevenson
01-05-2009, 04:26 PM
WTF! X1s do not have swivels! And that looks exactly like an x1 with the upgrade long y axis and long table, cncifyed. It is definitelybased on an X1 and will probalby have the same lack of rigidity.
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Machines-Accessories/Milling-Machines/Model-Super-X1L-Mill

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/imagecache/3335a0f4-8da4-4474-a22c-aeb93b78cf7f_255x400v2.jpg

super X1 with swivel [ edited ]

Just read Thomas post.
that makes sense I didn't realise that. Our agent Arceurotrade doesn't carry the standard X1

What i can say with certainty though is my KX1 which was one of the prototype machines has a fixed bolt on column similar to the one in the pic stripped down.

However when I came to fit an updated electronics box off it from the current series the new box was 30mm wider and 80mm longer. I ended up having to gut the new box and fit everything into my box.

I can't measure the column on a current KX1 as the only one I have here is crated to go out on Wednesday, I can measure mine and post later and I dare say this could be the same as the standard KX1. However this machine has never gave any indication it has a rigidity problem. Most of what I have posted being cut has been done on this machine.

John Stevenson
01-05-2009, 06:01 PM
Current model of the KX1 as previously posted, no sizes to the column as I don't have access to one at the moment.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/KX1_column.jpg

This is my prototype KX1, as far as i know only 3 of these were made and could ?? have been based on the standard X1.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/prototype_KX1.jpg

This is a solid casting, no core or U section without the dovetail it measures just under 2" by 3 1/8" note the difference around the bottom flange.
The current release is far larger in both width and hight.

.

lazlo
01-05-2009, 06:48 PM
John, this is the version of the X1 ("Micro Mill") that TM is talking about, that you usually see in the 'States. It sure does look a lot the the KX1...

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=47158
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/photos/47100-47199/47158.gif

John Stevenson
01-05-2009, 07:22 PM
Thanks, it all makes sense now, be interesting to see that HF one from the back to see if it's same as my prototype.

Can't understand TM having rigidity issues with this model unless he's not got it setup correctly, gibs etc

.

lazlo
01-05-2009, 07:38 PM
Can't understand TM having rigidity issues with this model unless he's not got it setup correctly, gibs etc.

It's a tiny little mill. Someone (you maybe?) posted a picture of an X1 on the table of their CNC mill -- hilarious picture :)

Rigidity is a relative thing, especially when you're talking about a 75 lb mill...

John Stevenson
01-05-2009, 08:17 PM
Not a mill but I did post my Big TOS actually running my little C0 lathe that's based on a Unimat.

Stuck a 100mm shaft in the headstock and packed the lathe up so it was driving from the chuck.
You couldn't stall THAT puppy :D

I know they are small but they are rigid for the size, we cut 80mm loco wheels in stainless on the KX1 at shows for demo purposes.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/locowheel2.jpg

.

beaton
01-11-2009, 11:37 PM
John Stevenson,

Have you had any problems with your KX? I am looking at buying a KX1 straight from Sieg. Even with shipping and customs it looks to be cheaper than the Smithy and Novakon versions. Also its all in one unit (no external control box), and has an oiling system. Which the others don't.

Since I am going to buy from Sieg, I think am going to get the sieg version that is ethernet connected and uses their software. I have an old copy of master cam to tool the parts with.

Would you or anyone else recommend a different machine? I will mostly be cutting parts in plastic, aluminum, and occasionally mild steels.

Thanks,

Brian

Teenage_Machinist
01-12-2009, 01:20 AM
hmmm... That column looks to be about the same size as my x1 and it is a really annoying machine.
It may be thicker.


OOPS EDIT X!

John Stevenson
01-12-2009, 05:32 AM
Brian,
So far no problem with the KX1 and other than setting up issues we have had none reported via the support forum.

Never seen an oiling system fitted to the KX1, only the KX3 but this may be an update although we haven't seen it yet.

Steer clear of their ethernet system controller, this is their Chinese controller for the home market, it does have English screens but absolutely no support.
It also has no way of picking a part up mid program if you break a tool, you have to start all over again.

.

macona
01-12-2009, 06:33 AM
Thanks, it all makes sense now, be interesting to see that HF one from the back to see if it's same as my prototype.

Can't understand TM having rigidity issues with this model unless he's not got it setup correctly, gibs etc

.

Had one too. About as rigid as jello.

Good for plastic, wood, aluminum, and brass. And then its not that great for those. The 2000 rpm spindle speed is too slow for small HSS endmills in these materials.

That was me with the mini mill on my supermax.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/Supermax%20CNC/DSC02690.jpg

beaton
01-12-2009, 02:36 PM
John,

That's good information to have. Do you have any experience with their 4th axis? I was considering adding that eventually. Is the resolution on this machine good enough to cut gears?

Thanks,

Brian

John Stevenson
01-12-2009, 03:03 PM
I don't have any experience with the CNC version that sieg sells, they are too expensive over here by the time duty is paid.

We convert the manual ones to stepper drive by fitting all bearings to the worm shaft, 4 in all and fitting a motor.

They are good enough for gear cutting in fact there are some video's on You tube doing just that.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ELCU52OnGbg

Brass spur gear being cut using form cutter.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=sCuf6RqM7e0

Steel gear being cut.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fps0OR1eF_s

Cutting a brass helical gear with a 'D' bit type cutter [ the profile is actually for a rack and not a gear but it was the only one handy for the demo ]

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=FkzqwIjjBhs

Herringbone gear in one pass.

All these were done on an X3 machine but there is no reason why after taking into account feeds and speeds the smaller machines can't do this.

Please ignore the rocking about, this isn't a machine problem as such it's just that the X3 is on a transport stand on it's way to the show and the stabilizer bolts have been removed from the castors.

This is the only video of a KX1 gear cutting and this is my lightweight prototype model.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=RV8Dq6mslnE

Not using the rotary axis just using the mills normal 3 axis, it's actually doing a clean up pass in the video so it doesn't look to be cutting. teeth are course because it had a large step over but I didn't want to spend a lot of time if the process wasn't going to work.

.

beaton
01-12-2009, 05:33 PM
So your KX1 is not what Sieg is selling?

Right now Novakon is $750 more than going straight to Sieg and getting it. Even with customs and broker charges.

John Stevenson
01-12-2009, 06:41 PM
So your KX1 is not what Sieg is selling?



My KX1 was a prototype, it was supplied as a base mechanical machine with motors. We fitted the electronics, wired it and tested it then sent all the details back to Sieg.
They copied this but in the meanwhile fitted a beefed up column.

So yes mine is the same as theirs, except the side case is slighly different and the column is lighter.

Since the first production machines arrived in the UK there have been no changes.

.

Teenage_Machinist
01-13-2009, 12:49 AM
Gibs are tight right now but often loose. Know were I can get small quantities of metric self locking set/cap screws?

But even with tight gibs the column and it's mount is very floppy. CnC column might be tougher but mine is square not U shape.

BillH
01-13-2009, 12:57 AM
Hmm, I have a sudden urge to bolt my X1 to my X3's table and run a roughing endmill through it.

MickeyD
01-13-2009, 01:05 AM
Speaking of Novakon, has anyone really looked at their logo in the magazines. A naked guy curled up in a fetal position does not inspire a lot of confidence. I guess he is a Bobcad user trying a new version... They really should have thought of their target market a little more before going with that logo.

wierdscience
01-13-2009, 01:10 AM
Speaking of Novakon, has anyone really looked at their logo in the magazines. A naked guy curled up in a fetal position does not inspire a lot of confidence. I guess he is a Bobcad user trying a new version... They really should have thought of their target market a little more before going with that logo.

It's plenty ghey alright and would anyone trust a company with KON in the title?Kinda like giving large sums of money to a guy named Madoff:rolleyes:

sansbury
01-13-2009, 12:38 PM
I had an X1 which I CNC'd for about a year before I traded up to an X2. The extended Y-axis base which most US X1s do not come with standard makes the machine better in almost every possible way. The column mount is a lot meatier and the Y-travel rivals the X3. Unfortunately by the time you've bought an X1 and the long-base upgrade, you're within $100 of the X2 and you might as well just bite that bullet--though it comes with ~2" less Y-axis travel!