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Silverback
01-05-2009, 06:35 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for a rotary table?

I've been thinking of getting a rotary table for use on my bridgeport, but haven't fully formed an idea about what I really want. Based on what I've seen, I'm starting to think that I probably want to end up with 2, first a smaller one that would either do horizontal and vertical mounting or adjustable angle, probably in the 6-10" range (small enough that I can easily move), and then a larger one like a big, used bridgeport one for larger work.

Well, I got one as a gift for my birthday a couple of days ago (a PhaseII), and after getting a good look at it close up I realized that I'm probably going to end up returning this one and going with something else. The biggest thing is slot sizes... it has an indexing piece for use up on end that looks like it is intended for one slot size, and the slots on the table face are a smaller size, both smaller than the standard slots/holddowns that I have for the bridgeport. Seems like it would be a hassle mount it down to the table securely and then I'd need another set of hold down hardware just for use with the table.

Looking around the internet at these things most don't list t-slot sizes, and of the ones that do, a lot of them have odd, smaller t-slots. Is there a reason for this that I'm missing? I'm also not really seeing anything about what to look for, what to avoid and why? Are any of them significantly better quality or to be avoided in general?

Bguns
01-05-2009, 06:45 AM
You can remove them, and if Oversize, Cut them down to fit your Table Slot.

That is what a Milling Machine is for.....

If too small, and a quick semi accurate job is needed, just push Key against Side of Slot and Clamp down...

I have multiple Mills, and don't bother with custom fitted Keys. If it needs to be Dead Accurate, the Dial Indicator comes out anyway... for ensuring everything is aligned...

T Slot's can't be Trusted....Disgusted, Don't you Mill as Hard as you Play :)

SVS
01-05-2009, 07:20 AM
I think 3/8" clamping is pretty typical until you move up to the big R Ts. You don't see the dirt cheap hold down kits in 3/8" as compared to the "Bridgeport" 1/2" kits either, but could roll your own.

My 10" Troyke takes 3/8"-there's enough meat in the table to stand 1/2" but thats just the way it is.

Your Old Dog
01-05-2009, 07:20 AM
If you don't want to make or buy another set, you can get by with square nuts and bolts from the hardware, that's what I do as I don't use it enough to warrant the expense or effort.

derekm
01-05-2009, 07:21 AM
Does anyone have recommendations for a rotary table?

I've been thinking of getting a rotary table for use on my bridgeport, but haven't fully formed an idea about what I really want. Based on what I've seen, I'm starting to think that I probably want to end up with 2, first a smaller one that would either do horizontal and vertical mounting or adjustable angle, probably in the 6-10" range (small enough that I can easily move), and then a larger one like a big, used bridgeport one for larger work.

Well, I got one as a gift for my birthday a couple of days ago (a PhaseII), and after getting a good look at it close up I realized that I'm probably going to end up returning this one and going with something else. The biggest thing is slot sizes... it has an indexing piece for use up on end that looks like it is intended for one slot size, and the slots on the table face are a smaller size, both smaller than the standard slots/holddowns that I have for the bridgeport. Seems like it would be a hassle mount it down to the table securely and then I'd need another set of hold down hardware just for use with the table.

Looking around the internet at these things most don't list t-slot sizes, and of the ones that do, a lot of them have odd, smaller t-slots. Is there a reason for this that I'm missing? I'm also not really seeing anything about what to look for, what to avoid and why? Are any of them significantly better quality or to be avoided in general?

Hows your weight lifting ability?
A good quality 10" RT weighs quite abit think 120Lbs + (50Kg+) and they can be an awkward slippery lift...especially from floor level - consider lifting gear.

Different slot sizes - yes thats a problem. My smallest slot size is the mill and the largest is the RT (a 250mm Fritz werner with 14mm slots) which shows you can get large slots on RTs but I still have 3 different slot sizes.

Thats alot of investment if you go for off the shelf clamping.

I decided to standardise on one stud size and make all my own t-nuts clamps etc. I calculated that I could use 8mm studding (all thread 8mm is cheaper here than 3/8") and still have the required clamping force with non hardened studding to reach a sliding friction of well over 1KN (200lbf) with 2 studs. Note each stud is slotted at the end for a screw driver.

The T nuts are made from 1" x 1/2" hot rolled and are coded for size by the finishes so I can easily recognise the size. The bottom threads of the t-nuts are closed with a centre punch.
All of the clamps are made out of the same 1" x 1/2". The engineers jacks are out 1" CRS bar and 3/4" UNF set screws

You can see all of this below

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/RT.jpg

JCHannum
01-05-2009, 08:59 AM
Rotary table selection has many choices. Size of work anticipated and the mill it will be used on are first. RT's increase in weight quickly as size increases, and as age of user increases. I have gone from 8" to 12" and back to 8" and I am happy with an 8" H/V table. I would avoid using the larger tables simply because they were too heavy to drag out for a job that could be done otherwise. The 8" gets more use than any of the larger ones for this reason.

It is simple to make a sub-table or add extensions to increase the size of a RT. The largest thing I have machined on the 8"RT is a 19" diameter motorcycle wheel. The added time to fixture an occasional large part is a minor inconvenience to me compared to lugging a 100+ pound fixture around when needed.

There is no real standardization of T-nuts or slots, particularly with accessories. Most mill tables will accept one of the common sizes, but RT's and such will be determined by the manufacturer. Some might come with T-nuts, but for the most part, the user will need to make his own.

SGW
01-05-2009, 09:26 AM
Places like Reid www.reidtool.com sell a wide variety of T-nut sizes, if you don't want to make your own. Purely by fortuitous circumstance, the rotary table I bought uses the same size T-nuts as my mill, but that's probably uncommon.

I think Bison sells a pretty nice 8" rotary table. Mine is 9", and for me at least it's about at the ragged edge of what I want to try to lift.

ckelloug
01-05-2009, 11:54 AM
I recently got a 10" Yuasa for about $900 brand new drop shipped from the factory via my local tool supply. It worked well for the project I needed it for and is sure to work well for the next one too.

HGR industrial surplus in Ohio had a couple of 10's and 12's in stock a few days ago. A few looked good and for the right price.

Silverback
01-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Hows your weight lifting ability?
A good quality 10" RT weighs quite abit think 120Lbs + (50Kg+) and they can be an awkward slippery lift...especially from floor level - consider lifting gear.

Heh, I'm 6'4" and pushing 300#, I used to be able to squat and deadlift over 600# for multiple reps, even with a messed up back (doesn't seem to limit the amount I can pick up, just makes it unpleasant. I moved a 700# engine and carried a 200# transmission across a friend's shop over the weekend).
;)

So yea, just about anything reasonable sized I could lift if there is a decent way to hold onto it, but being realistic, I'm setting the limit around 100# for something awkward that I might use regularly, where enough over that will be enough hassle that I won't want to mess with it if I can figure something else out. That should make most 8" in the safe range and most 10" ones borderline.

Silverback
01-05-2009, 12:37 PM
I would avoid using the larger tables simply because they were too heavy to drag out for a job that could be done otherwise. The 8" gets more use than any of the larger ones for this reason.

that was my thinking when I said that I could see ending up owning a smaller one and a larger one, and end up using the smaller most of the time.


It is simple to make a sub-table or add extensions to increase the size of a RT. The largest thing I have machined on the 8"RT is a 19" diameter motorcycle wheel. The added time to fixture an occasional large part is a minor inconvenience to me compared to lugging a 100+ pound fixture around when needed.

Huh, I would really like to see pictures or a better description of what you did (assorted automotive parts, wheels, rotors, flywheels, flexplates, crank triggers... are just the kinds of things I was thinking of using it for).

I was kind of thinking about that but I dismissed it thinking that:
- the oversize piece/extension would be hard to center/position parts accurately unless it was fairly hefty and precision ground.
- any extension/overhang would get in the way of operating the table
- a smaller table just won't have the mass to hold a larger piece steady.

Your response gives me the idea that these concerns are at least not as big a deal as I was thinking they will be...

hardtail
01-05-2009, 12:43 PM
If your not happy about the quality return it. Yuausa makes a really nice table, ask Doug how he got such a good price, usually those tables retail for ~$1700.

Take the money and watch ebay, saw a flawless HD Troyke go for $350 on ebay, compensate for the shipping though.

You should be able to arm curl a 10"............LOL Constructing a handle to go into the T slots helps.

BadDog
01-05-2009, 02:07 PM
I've got a 12" Troyke V/H Rotab, a 6" Hartford Indexer, and an 8" horiz rotab. All take different t-nuts that are, in turn, different from my mill. I have accumulated t-nuts for all of them. Some salvaged from scrapper equipment, some made, and some purchased. In fact, I noticed that Enco has Teco t-nuts on sale right now cheaper than it's worth to make them. Add in some decent quality all thread and all is well. I even sometimes use the straps from my mill set on the rotabs, generally I can make do quite readily...

lazlo
01-05-2009, 02:21 PM
The biggest thing is slot sizes... the slots on the table face are a smaller size, both smaller than the standard slots/holddowns that I have for the bridgeport. Seems like it would be a hassle mount it down to the table securely and then I'd need another set of hold down hardware just for use with the table.

Looking around the internet at these things most don't list t-slot sizes, and of the ones that do, a lot of them have odd, smaller t-slots.

I don't think any 8" rotab has 5/8" (Bridgeport) T-slots. My Yuasa has 12mm slots, and I think the Troyke's have 9/16" T-slots.

But just about every tool in my shop uses different T-slot sizes, sized according to the size of the table: my Millrite mill uses 9/16" T-slots (yes, bigger than Bridgeports), my Brown & Sharpe Tool and Cutter Grinder has 7/16" t-slots, my Chinese tilting angle table has 10mm t-slots (IIRC),...

The T-slot/clamp kits are pretty inexpensive though. This was my post from Cameron's thread about buying a new Yuasa rotab, which has 12mm T-slots:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=398157&postcount=4

BTW Cameron, 12mm is an RCH away from 7/16". I use the TECO 7/16" T-slot and stud set in my Yuasa -- fits great:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1765598&PMT4NO=54595447

http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0694300-11.jpg

Normally $78, got it on the bi-monthly 30% off sale for $55.

derekm
01-05-2009, 02:38 PM
...The T-slot/clamp kits are pretty inexpensive though.
...
Normally $78, got it on the bi-monthly 30% off sale for $55....

I have better things to spend £150 on! (the price of 3 sets) that 50 pints even at outrageous pub prices in the SE of England, or half a case of good malt whisky or twice the combined price of the DH and RT. :)

In contrast the stock was about £30 and I had lots left over to make things with ... even if I add in the cost of the two side and face cutters and the 10mm ripper end mill, I havent spent £50

And three sets is just too much stuff in which to not find the correct bits you need.

Derek - An Englishman of Scots Ancestry.

Silverback
01-05-2009, 03:53 PM
If your not happy about the quality return it. Yuausa makes a really nice table, ask Doug how he got such a good price, usually those tables retail for ~$1700.

I’m not sure that I have an issue with quality… besides slop or stiffness in the action or runout on the table, I’m not sure what I’d be looking for anyway. It’s more a question of t-slot sizes and the total size of the rotary table right now and I don’t want to make a mistake and end up with something that I won’t be happy with the quality.

After a little input, I’m coming to the conclusion that my t-slot size issue is a lot less of an issue than I was making it out to be.

It seems like Yuausa is pretty much the standard and people seem to like Bison, but I’ll be honest, $1xxx isn’t going to fly here.

Take the money and watch ebay, saw a flawless HD Troyke go for $350 on ebay, compensate for the shipping though.

What is the deal with the Troyke tables? I’m seeing what looks like some good deals on some used ones, and they appear to be American made… are they good quality stuff?

What about the Palmgren ones? They tend to _look_ nice in the pictures (I know, I’d rather have a something that works great and looks like a turd), and do come with standard 5/8” T-slots. Same with t his one but they don’t list a brand:
http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=307-3349&PMPXNO=7910431&PARTPG=INLMK32

Finally, what about the Enco ones? The 8” in a package with tailstock and dividing plates is $442.74 right now… that seems like a killer deal if the quality is good.

Silverback
01-05-2009, 04:14 PM
Hey Hardtail, you're not Stephen of Hardtail Racing, are you? I know that he's up in AB somewhere also.

hardtail
01-05-2009, 05:12 PM
No not me,,,,,actually I've never heard of Hardtail Racing.......

Enco seems the best deal out there on Ph II, but I do recall seeing a pkg deal once that was a special and better......maybe MSC

Yuasa are nice, for my personal needs a 10 or 12 " will suit me, likely a 10 because as the diameter grows so does the weight......big time. I missed out on a nice Yuasa on ebay for .99, seller relisted it later at $500 opening bid.

Troyke's are good, better than palmgren I'd say.

Grizzly has a Yuasa style thats a little more than Phase II that I'm considering, I would actually like some feedback by owners as country of Origin is China, could be ok or dismal?

Grizzly has the cheapest dividing plates and tailstocks and they fit many models.

lazlo
01-05-2009, 06:12 PM
Most (all?) of Palmgren's rotabs are now Chinese ("Palmgren International"). They're probably about the same quality as Phase II or Vertex -- pretty darn good. Based on my experiences with Enco's house-brand stuff, their tables are probably a step down from Palmgren/Vertex/Phase II.

Yuasa's used to be made in Japan (mine is, don't know about the latest ones) and they're very nice.

Troyke's are Made in USA, and even better quality than Yuasa, IMHO.

This is my 8" Yuasa. Like JC says, I wouldn't want to go any smaller than 8":

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Servo%20Plate/Blake.jpg

oddball racing
01-05-2009, 06:15 PM
Finally, what about the Enco ones? The 8” in a package with tailstock and dividing plates is $442.74 right now… that seems like a killer deal if the quality is good enough.

First a quick edit to YOUR post, if I may.(I added a key word in red)

I got a dirty 8" Palrmgren off Flea Bay for $204 shipped. It even has the XY cross-slide base. I had to wait about 5 weeks until it finally came up, and I bid on more than twenty in that time. Perseverance finally paid off for me as I was just about to by an Enco/China model myself because for what I do it would definitely have been good enough for the money.

FWIW, the twenty or so I was trying to buy, were all 6-10 inch models, mostly from old US companies. (Sorry, Yuasa's open bids were too rich for me) Most auctioned off between $135-165 USD. Most 10" shipping charges kill the budget too as has already been said. (tends to put you in freight territory). The deals are still there if your'e in a position to be patient.

I waste plenty of time on the 'puter cruising Flea Bag looking for everything from machines to tooling, it seems a lot of shops are feeling hungry now and are clearing out goods they don't need. It's usually the easy moving $100-$1000 dollar items they dump first.

Buyers market for some HSM stuff that may not be up to production shop quality anymore but still has plenty of usable life left.

Plenty of "used, but not used up!" tooling available.
Mike

rode2rouen
01-05-2009, 07:22 PM
What is the deal with the Troyke tables? I’m seeing what looks like some good deals on some used ones, and they appear to be American made… are they good quality stuff?




Made in Cincinnati, OH. I picked up a very nice 10" H/V a couple of years ago off Ebay for around $250.00 including shipping. Much nicer than some of the import stuff I had looked at.


Rex

jdunmyer
01-05-2009, 08:03 PM
I have an 8" Phase II H/V RotTab and am quite happy with it. The T-slots use a 1/2" clamp kit; I bought one from Enco for cheap. Don't remember the price, but I don't think it was $50.00, more like $40.00 at the time.

It's heavy enough that I wouldn't want to have to carry it more than the 5' or so between the bench and the B'Port.

Silverback
01-05-2009, 11:55 PM
Ok, I think that we’re really getting somewhere… I’m decided that it will probably be a 10”, but might be an 8” (I just have 5 projects in my head right now that are 7” or bigger so the 6” Phase II just doesn’t really make sense), sounds like I probably want to stay away from the enco ones even thought the 8” looks just like the phase II and the 10” looks a lot like the Yausa style ones, I want better quality then most of the enco stuff that I have floating around.

I like how the Yausa ones look, but function wise, what’s the difference? There has to be something for Grizzly to bother carrying a Yausa style and a second one (that looks a heck of a lot like a PhaseII) in each size. Right now based on the feedback that I’ve gotten I’m leaning toward (I think in order of preference from what I’m thinking right now):
- Grizzly “Yausa Style” one
- Phase II
- Grizzly normal style one
- A used Troyke 9” on ebay (good top face, but it _really_ looks used and about the same/slightly higher price range making it a distant 4th)
Anyone want to give me some input which I should go with or why I should change my order of preference?

hardtail
01-06-2009, 12:05 AM
I guess it's the old adage, used good American or new Asian.......LOL
Not trying to stir that pot yet again
Old Vertex was better than Phase II, don't know if the new ones are the same? If you want a little better than Phase II I would go that route. There is an ebay seller that seems the cheapest for Vertex, I'll find a link for the 10" I've been watching. I like the look of the Grizzly style Yuasa but I can't comment on the quality and they won't ship to Canada so until I make it stateside I don't know, they were reluctant to admit it was made in China sooooo???

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERTEX-Rotary-Table-10-Horizontal-Vertical-NEW_W0QQitemZ7585833047QQcmdZViewItemQQptZBI_Tool_ Work_Holding?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Prices and weight really go up after 8" on new, used seems to go the other way, 12" and up can really drop but shipping becomes a big factor........

Troyke had different models, the heavy duty best ones have 6 T slots others have 4.

gnm109
01-06-2009, 01:17 AM
The only problem with the larger rotary tables is the weight.

JCHannum
01-06-2009, 10:38 AM
You might try to PM Kap Pullen, he is a contributor here. He sells PhaseII gear, and is in the Baltimore area. It might be an opportunity for you to see the various types in person.

I am not sure what is meant by the Yuasa vs normal style refers to. If one is a horizontal/vertical and the other is a horizontal only, the H/V is more versatile, slightly heavier and usually a bit more expensive. The basic rotary function is the same for either.

derekm
01-06-2009, 11:03 AM
The only problem with the larger rotary tables is the weight.
There can be other problems -

Too large for the coolant features - Larger RT are often designed for use with flood coolant redirecting the flow back on to the mill table (see my photograph above). if the RT is too large the coolant running off it will pour of the RT onto the floor or splash in the drip tray

Too heavy for the smaller Mill knee mechanism - The weight might damage more than your back.

Too large for the Y axis on smaller mills

lazlo
01-06-2009, 11:48 AM
The only problem with the larger rotary tables is the weight.

The bigger problem is that the weight goes up with the radius squared. So a 10" table is way heavier than an 8" table: an 8" table is around 55 lbs (easily luggable onto the mill table), but a 10" table is around 85 lbs. That's a pain to hoist onto the mill table unless you're a big, strapping young man :)

derekm
01-06-2009, 11:57 AM
The bigger problem is that the weight goes up with the radius squared. So a 10" table is way heavier than an 8" table: an 8" table is around 55 lbs (easily luggable onto the mill table), but a 10" table is around 85 lbs. That's a pain to hoist onto the mill table unless you're a big, strapping young man :)
R^2 I think is an underestimate as they also get taller to retain the rigidity...because of the weight :)

lazlo
01-06-2009, 12:09 PM
R^2 I think is an underestimate as they also get taller to retain the rigidity...because of the weight :)

Yeah, I was wondering if someone was going to take me to task on that Derek :)
I think the table-top thickness is the same on the Yuasa's between the 8" and 10" tables, but like you say, the base casting is a lot more substantial.

So how about: "the weight of a rotab goes up somewhere between the radius squared and the radius cubed"? :D

But my point was that 8" is about the limit of an easily luggable rotab.

derekm
01-06-2009, 01:07 PM
Yeah, I was wondering if someone was going to take me to task on that Derek :)
I think the table-top thickness is the same on the Yuasa's between the 8" and 10" tables, but like you say, the base casting is a lot more substantial.

So how about: "the weight of a rotab goes up somewhere between the radius squared and the radius cubed"? :D

But my point was that 8" is about the limit of an easily luggable rotab.
actually I checked and squared is close
but you are right 8" is good 10" marginal but in the used market 10" cheaper
note Enco charge a fairly constant $50-60 per inch for their phase 2 Rotabs



but then I got my mill, shaper, lathe, DH and RT inc shipping for about the Enco price of the 12" RT excluding shipping :)

http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/graph.jpg
from enco & grizzly data

ckelloug
01-06-2009, 01:31 PM
To make a total asshat remark, I think weight ought to go up proportional to r^2*h*7.85g/cm^3 ;)

Regards,
Cameron

oldtiffie
01-06-2009, 11:05 PM
The mass/weight of the rotary table is all very well. You can get that from many catalogues - most of the same nominal sizes are pretty close to being the same weight.

Here is a pic of my 6" and 10" rotary tables for a visual image of orders of magnitude between the weight and "bulkiness" of them.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF45-5.jpg

I'd be more concerned about the "awkwardness factor" and your fitness. Those larger rotary tables can be very awkward to raise/lower and maneuver into place on the mill and where-ever they are stored between uses.

The larger ones are just an accident looking for some-where to happen.

Even if you are fit (enough) and have "done it heaps of times before", just one slip and/or lapse of concentration, or taking just one chance too many, or lifting it the "wrong way" or a slip can cause you considerable "grief".

Many of us are not as fit as we either think we are or were.

A "slipped" (prolapsed) "disk" or a muscular or sinew strain/"tear" or a "hernia" are a big price to pay.

I suspect that a lot of "big(ger) stuff" is from older men who have paid the price of age and carelessness as well as over-blown egos and are now working back "down the scale" to "smaller stuff".

That demographic is also the one in which older men fall off roofs and ladders - as well as buy 4WD/SUV's and big boats and H-D's and grow pony-tails. They are also in the area of "dribble-dicks" wearing (but NEVER admitting to) absorbent pads in their under-wear.

And "macho-Man" is brought to his knees. But it is largely preventable.

There's a lot of it about.

I am about to start revising the methods I use to get my 10" rotary table in and out of its "under-bench" storage and onto and off from my HF-45 mill. The rotary table weighs 40Kg (85 pound) and the removable 8" front-mounted chuck weighs 20Kg (45 pound) - lifted separately.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=R010
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=C281

I have a 1,000 pound "PullZall" hoist as well as a girder trolley for that purpose that I have yet to install. I think it will be easier using my 500 Kg (1,200 pound) hoisting table. That has paid for itself with getting stuff on and off the trailer under the car-port (RHS portal framed).
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products/stockCode=J055
I think the PullZAll will wind up in the car-port as well as it will fit nicely with the trailer, the trolley as well as for larger jobs done on the Car-port slab/apron.

I may be old (all but 72) and while I am or maybe silly, I sure hope that I am not stupid in regard to lifting stuff in the shop - rotary tables included.

oldtiffie
01-07-2009, 03:19 AM
One thing that I forgot and that has not been mentioned, is the worm:wheel ratio.

Most or many are 40:1 which leaves some "holes" in the indexing as regards "number of holes per 360 degree". It only allows a 360/40 = 9 degree per rev of the hand-wheel which is a problem to get the finer graduations/table movements.

Both my 6" and 10" are 90:1 ratios and cover just about every number of holes per 360 up to 100 and beyond, The hand-wheel has 360/90 = 4 degree per rev to fit the graduations in - which they do very well. Mine are calibrated to 20 seconds on the 6" and 10 seconds on the 10". That can make a big difference as regards machine and setting accuracy once you get down to the "finer" angles and "numbers".

I am not the least interested in the taper or the concentricity of the hole/bore in the table spindle as I never use it and probably never will.

I am concerned about the "flatness" of the rotary table and its "parallelism" to its base and therefore the mill table.

I bought both of my rotary tables with 3 (6") and 6 (10") tee-slots on the table as I intended to use a "front-face fixed/bolted" 3-jaw chuck on them. I have a 5" chuck on my 6" and an 8" on my 10" rotary table/s with no need for packing and clamps etc. Both chucks are secured with hex-head socket screws (HHSS) that sit in counter-bored holes in the body of the chuck.

I use 3/8-UNC holding-down/clamping bolts as standard with a range of tee-nuts to suit the individual machine or tool. I have the "usual "garden variety" sets of tee-nut/bolt/clamp sets and they work fine. If I have to get "heavy-handed" they limit how much "pull" I can put on the over-hangs of the tee-slots and so avoid pulling them out and/or wrecking the tools or tables.

If it seems that "heavy-handiness" is "needed" its time to re-assess the job and/or its fastening to the machine/table.

This is an ER-32 collet adaptor from my lathe mounted on my 6" rotary table and is the best "Spindexer" about when mounted on the rotary table. Comes in very handy.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF45-4-1.jpg

I think the best compromise is an 8" rotary table as 6" can be a bit small and limiting and a 10" is heavy, awkward and can be a bit of "over-kill" both as regards the job and the operator.

Silverback
01-07-2009, 07:31 AM
oldtiffie, I'm guessing that those are Vertex tables? How do you like them? they appear to fit that "Yuasa style" pattern but at least in the pictures have nicer knobs then even a real Yuasa... Unfortunatly, they also appear to be somewhat difficult to get your hands on in the USA. If someone has them, the almost always have a 6", occasionally youll run across a 10"... maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.

I'm still torn between getting an 8" and a 10". I'm sure that I can lift the 45KG that you describe (used to lb measures here, but in the gym 20kg/45lb plates are a standard weight and I can think of an occasion that I regularly loaded and unloaded them 2 at a time), but don't particularly want to knowing the kind of damage it can do when it slips and you don't have it in a convenient place to pick up or set down.

At the same time if I got the 8" I'm wondering how often I would find an 8" just a little too small and wish I got a 10". The fact is that a lot of what I do is automotive related and a lot of the parts that I could see using it on are bigger then even 10" around, but the other side of it is that there are just as many little things like assorted bushings, throttle cams/linkages, various fuel injection parts... that I can see using it for that are relatively small. Does a larger table ever get in the way when messing with smaller parts?


I am concerned about the "flatness" of the rotary table and its "parallelism" to its base and therefore the mill table.

I bought both of my rotary tables with 3 (6") and 6 (10") tee-slots on the table as I intended to use a "front-face fixed/bolted" 3-jaw chuck on them. I have a 5" chuck on my 6" and an 8" on my 10" rotary table/s with no need for packing and clamps etc. Both chucks are secured with hex-head socket screws (HHSS) that sit in counter-bored holes in the body of the chuck.

You know, this is something that I'm interested in doing, and I reread that probably half a dozen times and I still don't think I really understand how you have the chucks held down and more importantly centered.

JCHannum
01-07-2009, 09:07 AM
A 10" RT is a good fit for a Bridgeport. I have a Rockwell mill, and a 10" was too large, it overhung the table and took up a lot of room. The 8" was better suited to that mill.

The 10" is still manageable as far as weight is concerned. I would recommend a horizontal/vertical, as it adds versatility.

Rather than purchasing another RT for smaller work, I would recommend the next purchase to be a dividing head. A 6-1/2" or 9" dividing head can be used for some of the smaller bits and will add capabilities not found in the RT.

hardtail
01-07-2009, 11:35 AM
That demographic is also the one in which older men fall off roofs and ladders - as well as buy 4WD/SUV's and big boats and H-D's and grow pony-tails. They are also in the area of "dribble-dicks" wearing (but NEVER admitting to) absorbent pads in their under-wear.


Holy cow tiff did you have me under investigation........LOL
MPB leaves the ponytail now an impossibility...........frown
Chick smoked me in my 4x4 3 days before Christmas at 70 mph with a Honda Civic and mine faired worse.........how deflating.........LOL

SB, that ebay link should hook you up to the lowest price Vertex 10" I've seen yet, old Vertex had bronze inerds don't know agout new?????? 90:1

Silverback
01-07-2009, 03:22 PM
Holy cow tiff did you have me under investigation........LOL
MPB leaves the ponytail now an impossibility...........frown
Chip smoked me in my 4x4 3 days before Christmas at 70 mph with a Honda Civic and mine faired worse.........how deflating.........LOL

SB, that ebay link should hook you up to the lowest price Vertex 10" I've seen yet, old Vertex had bronze inerds don't know agout new?????? 90:1

Bronze innards doesn't sound good... till I read that the vertex rotary tables just moved up to the top of my list, now I'm not sure again.

As far as the rest of that... well I have the ponytail, 4x4 and I'm looking for the right HD project, but I don't think that I'm old enough to fit the rest of the description (just turned 37).

Silverback
01-07-2009, 03:30 PM
Rather than purchasing another RT for smaller work, I would recommend the next purchase to be a dividing head. A 6-1/2" or 9" dividing head can be used for some of the smaller bits and will add capabilities not found in the RT.

I'm hoping that an 8 or 10" rotary table could take the place of a little one, and maybe in a pinch a big one (though a used 12-16" bridgeport seems easy to come by for cheap).

What can a dividing head do that adding dividing plates to a rotary table can't?

Silverback
01-09-2009, 02:11 AM
heh, looks like everyone disappeared on the same day...

I've got one more question to add... are the dividing plates fairly close to universal for similar rotary tables across brands?

BadDog
01-09-2009, 02:17 AM
Nope... 1234

lazlo
01-09-2009, 02:18 AM
I've got one more question to add... are the dividing plates fairly close to universal for similar rotary tables across brands?

You're asking two questions: the number of holes are reasonably standard for a rotab or dividing head, as long as it has the same worm ratio: 40:1 (on most dividing heads) or 90:1 (on most rotabs).

Many 40:1 dividing heads use the Brown & Sharpe hole patterns, which comprise three standard plates, and three or four "high number" plates going up to 127 holes.

The other issue is that the size of the dividing plate itself, the spacing between the locating holes, the arbor diameter, and the bolt hole pattern are different for just about every indexing device ever made.

Check out how much the Myford dividing plates go for :)

oldtiffie
01-09-2009, 02:44 AM
I will get back later to answer some other queries but I thought I'd jump in and say that John Stevenson's wife sells dividing plates on the web. PM John S. He makes them and can answer any questions in that regard. I thought I had his wife's web site address but it seems not.

oldtiffie
01-09-2009, 07:59 AM
oldtiffie, I'm guessing that those are Vertex tables? How do you like them? they appear to fit that "Yuasa style" pattern but at least in the pictures have nicer knobs then even a real Yuasa... Unfortunatly, they also appear to be somewhat difficult to get your hands on in the USA. If someone has them, the almost always have a 6", occasionally youll run across a 10"... maybe I'm just looking in the wrong place.

I'm still torn between getting an 8" and a 10". I'm sure that I can lift the 45KG that you describe (used to lb measures here, but in the gym 20kg/45lb plates are a standard weight and I can think of an occasion that I regularly loaded and unloaded them 2 at a time), but don't particularly want to knowing the kind of damage it can do when it slips and you don't have it in a convenient place to pick up or set down.

At the same time if I got the 8" I'm wondering how often I would find an 8" just a little too small and wish I got a 10". The fact is that a lot of what I do is automotive related and a lot of the parts that I could see using it on are bigger then even 10" around, but the other side of it is that there are just as many little things like assorted bushings, throttle cams/linkages, various fuel injection parts... that I can see using it for that are relatively small. Does a larger table ever get in the way when messing with smaller parts?


Originally Posted by oldtiffie
I am concerned about the "flatness" of the rotary table and its "parallelism" to its base and therefore the mill table.

I bought both of my rotary tables with 3 (6") and 6 (10") tee-slots on the table as I intended to use a "front-face fixed/bolted" 3-jaw chuck on them. I have a 5" chuck on my 6" and an 8" on my 10" rotary table/s with no need for packing and clamps etc. Both chucks are secured with hex-head socket screws (HHSS) that sit in counter-bored holes in the body of the chuck.

You know, this is something that I'm interested in doing, and I reread that probably half a dozen times and I still don't think I really understand how you have the chucks held down and more importantly centered.

Thanks Mark,

I will try to answer your queries.

Yes they certainly are "Vertex" rotabs. I am very happy with them in every respect.


I'm still torn between getting an 8" and a 10". I'm sure that I can lift the 45KG that you describe (used to lb measures here, but in the gym 20kg/45lb plates are a standard weight and I can think of an occasion that I regularly loaded and unloaded them 2 at a time), but don't particularly want to knowing the kind of damage it can do when it slips and you don't have it in a convenient place to pick up or set down.

I go to the Gym regularly and will be struggling with too many reps with 40Kg!! But that said, lifting and lowering that 10" rotab is a vastly different sort of a lift as you are bending and turning in what many Gym Instructors will tell you is "not good". Getting and keeping a grip is hard too. It sure is "do-able" but I think that an accident is inevitable and preventable. I think that when I have that problem solved, the 10" will be my preference over the 8". But if I could not use "aids" to lift/lower I would go for the 8".

The chucks have three counter-bored through-holes from the front face to the back. I use 3/8"-UNC hex head socket screws (those with knurled heads with a hexagon hole for an Allen key) which screw into 3/8 UNC tee-nuts in the face of my rotabs. You can just see them here:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith09.jpg

You can barely see them here:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF45-5.jpg

Here are some links to some at my Suppliers premises which shows the counter-bore/s. Mine have the soft jaws as well:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=C280

https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=C281

"Centre-ing" a job in the chuck is dead easy.

Put the chuck on the rotary table and clamp it lightly so that it can be moved (there is plenty of "slop" for adequate movement of the chuck on the table).

Put the job in the chuck and clamp the chuck.

Disengage the worm and wheel drive and check to see that the table spins freely.

Put a dial indicator (base NOT on the rotary table) with the indicator on the job.

Spin the table and note any total dial indicator run-out (TIR).

"Correct" the TIR by tapping the chuck (to move it on the table) for a similar method as on a 4-jawed chuck in a lathe for a similar result.

When the TIR is satisfactory, clamp the chuck firmly to the table (use 3 the hex head socket screws) and re-check the TIR. If any adjustment is needed - do it.

If TIR is OK the work is as centred on the rotary table centre/axis as the work would be if in a 4-jaw chuck in a lathe.

Re-engage the worm and wheel and check for correct operation.

There was no need to use the MT bore in the rotary table - at all.

Now that the rotary table and job axis are accurately concentric and axially aligned, you can now align the rotary table and the job (with both now having co-incident axis) to the mill spindle by putting a good test dial indicator in the mill quill (chuck or collet - doesn't matter), put the indicator on the job. Spin the mill quill and use the mill "X"/"Y" dials to reduce the TIR to zero. Lock/clamp the mill table "X" and "Y".

The job, rotary table and the mill head quill/spindle axis are all very accurately aligned and coincident.

That's all there is to it - easy.

It might seem difficult at first but with a couple of "goes" at it you will see how and why it works.

There are no other "aides" needed or required.

I hope it helps.

JCHannum
01-09-2009, 09:10 AM
Sorry, I missed your question.

The difference between an RT and a dividing head is basically size and profile. An RT is traditionally used in the horizontal position on larger diameter or odd shape parts that require fixturing. A H/V table adds the vertical function and can in theory perform the same function as a DH if it is also equipped with a tailstock. The only difficulty is the size of the RT, it can interfere with the mill spindle when doing close work.

A DH with a tailstock can be used more easily with long work and the previously mentioned small parts. It also can be tilted, usually a range of over 90 degrees. This adds the ability to machine tapered pieces.

A DH is typically fitted with a three jaw chuck or center and dog for use on round parts while the RT, with its larger table is more adaptable to flat or odd shapes. An RT can be fitted with a chuck of course.

The plates function in the same manner on any dividing head or rotary table. The mechanics of installation and size of the plates will differ between manufacturers. There is some interchangeability, and it is not impossible to adapt plates from one to another. I have considered making an adapter to permit me to use the plates from my DH on my RT, but it, so far remains only another project on the list.

This is John's wife's site. You will probably not find individual plates at a better price. She also has plates with nonstandard hole counts that include hole counts that should have been standard in the first place.
http://www.metoolsonline.com/

derekm
01-09-2009, 09:25 AM
Thanks Mark,

...
I go to the Gym regularly and will be struggling with too many reps with 40Kg!! But that said, lifting and lowering that 10" rotab is a vastly different sort of a lift as you are bending and turning in what many Gym Instructors will tell you is "not good". Getting and keeping a grip is hard too. It sure is "do-able" but I think that an accident is inevitable and preventable. I think that when I have that problem solved, the 10" will be my preference over the 8". But if I could not use "aids" to lift/lower I would go for the 8"...


I think Oldtiffie you understate your case here... I am lucky enough not to have had a lasting back injury which even at my age is unusual... I want to keep that way so I'm putting in a hoist for my 10" Rotab and 10" swing DH.

I can lift weight fine(and I have done it a number of time) but the danger as you said is it slipping and then having to make a grab at like I did with an 19" CRT monitor a long time ago, that tore a muscle in my back, THAT WAS PAINFUL. But healed fine. I'm taking the warning.

Awkward ( i.e. large or poor grip) loads over 15Kg that you cannot "just drop", must be treated with respect and you should use intelligence and not just strength...

My hoist will be a simple and very cheap block and tackle above the mill and I will use a dolly made from a 0.5m square of wood and castors to scoot the RT/DH to the hoist.
I strongly suggest everyone else considers doing likewise even with an 8" RT...

A rotab is for christmas but a back injury is for life

dpchips
01-09-2009, 11:21 PM
Hi guys,
This will be my first post ever. on the site. I purchased a Yuasa 8" RT at the Grizzly store in Muncy Pa. and I must say I am very happy with it. I also bought the dividing plates for it.
I made the 16" 3 blade cutter wheel for a wood chipper that I built out of 1 1/4" stock, I used the RT with a small mill bit to mark off the 3 chip slots, then I undercut out the slots on my bandsaw, then finished the slots on the RT. I then made a hub with a 6 bolt hole pattern to attach the shaft to to turn the wheel. In the picture you could see how all of these parts had to be made with different setups on different machines, and put back on the RT to finish them, things like drilling the bolt hole pattern in each piece, Etc. All of the parts bolted together perfectly. I was concerned about the repeatability of the table and the plates, while doing the job, but so relieved when they all fit together. :)

I made a little cheater tool, and thought I would pass it on. I took some 1 1/2" round stock and I cut it off at about 2" overall long, and then I machined a 45 degree point on the one end of it, then I machined a 3/4" shank about 1" long on the other end of it. I then put a 3/4" collet in my mill and put this simple tool into the collet. I made sure the RT was not clamped to my mill table at this time, I then lowered my spindle down so that the 45 degree tip contacted the entire center hole of my RT, allowing it to move the RT. Then I would tighten the bolts holding the RT.Then I would use a wiggler and the mill X & Y to fine tune the center of the RT to my spindle. Most of the time I didn't have to move the table to be center. That saved so much set up time!

http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr184/chips97/P1100129.jpg

Thanks

Silverback
01-10-2009, 12:29 AM
Earlier today I ended up buying the 10" Vertex that hardtail posted a link to on ebay (thanks hardtail). I found 2 places that had them listed for significantly less, but after contacting them one said that they're out of stock till the end of February, and the second said that the price they pay has shot way up and they stopped carrying them, offered me a "china one" that they are carrying in it's place.

After all this discussion I was pretty much decided on a Yuasa style RT, and the Vertex looked better than the rest and was the only one that seemed to have universally happy owners. I considered the Grizzly, but I could only find 2 people that bought one online, one basically said "it's OK, my other one is nicer," and the second complained about getting one that was rusted and not being able to get grizzly to replace it.

Silverback
01-10-2009, 01:08 AM
I go to the Gym regularly and will be struggling with too many reps with 40Kg!! But that said, lifting and lowering that 10" rotab is a vastly different sort of a lift as you are bending and turning in what many Gym Instructors will tell you is "not good". Getting and keeping a grip is hard too. It sure is "do-able" but I think that an accident is inevitable and preventable. I think that when I have that problem solved, the 10" will be my preference over the 8". But if I could not use "aids" to lift/lower I would go for the 8".

Heh, like I already mentioned, I’m bigger than the average bear ;) and having a messed up back to start with I know what I’m getting into. I sort of have a plan anyway. I’m thinking of building a sort of handle to make the thing easier to move/carry, and I’m trying to figure out what I’m going to do with storage for tooling for the Bridgeport and I think this is all going to work together… I’m thinking of some type of narrow tool cabinet that can sit against the bridgport base, behind the table that is about the same height as the table and I’ll store the RT on top of it, basically avoid most of the lifting and just transfer it from one surface to the other. I can’t do any kind of overhead lift for the time being since at least for now the Bridgeport lives up against the garage door and when the door rolls up it will be in the way.


That's all there is to it - easy.

It might seem difficult at first but with a couple of "goes" at it you will see how and why it works.

There are no other "aides" needed or required.

I hope it helps.

That actually helped a lot, thanks. It’s actually dead simple explained that way. I get the feeling that if I was able to spend some time hanging out in your shop I’d end up with tons good ideas/ways to do things…


The plates function in the same manner on any dividing head or rotary table. The mechanics of installation and size of the plates will differ between manufacturers. There is some interchangeability, and it is not impossible to adapt plates from one to another. I have considered making an adapter to permit me to use the plates from my DH on my RT, but it, so far remains only another project on the list.

The Vertex plates seem to be somewhat difficult to find, so the thought process that I was having when I asked the question is that the Grizzly ones are designed to work with the same style of RT and are easy to get (and at that price I could easily justify getting the tailstock also even though I don’t have any immediate plans for it), so if they could be made to work without totally redoing things that would be a quick, easy and cheap solution. To be very honest, I’ve never actually used a set/seen them in person, so I don’t know if I’m making a big deal of something very simple or if this is a bit of a hassle.


This is John's wife's site. You will probably not find individual plates at a better price. She also has plates with nonstandard hole counts that include hole counts that should have been standard in the first place.
http://www.metoolsonline.com/

That again falls right into my previous question and last question… they seem to specify that they follow a specific pattern and I don’t really know what is involved in getting them to work with the vertex.

JCHannum
01-10-2009, 09:53 AM
Dividing plates are simply round plates with a series of holes in them. The only limitations in using them on different size instruments is their physical size, the center hall may need to be enlarged or bushed, and the mounting holes may need to be changed.

The actual use of them is a mathematical calculation involving hole count and gear ratio of the instrument. Dividing heads are usually 40:1 while rotary tables differ, 60, 90 and 120:1 being aome of the more common ratios.

lane
01-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Use a hoist for heavy lifting
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lane5263/Hoistformill002.jpg

John Stevenson
01-10-2009, 09:09 PM
That again falls right into my previous question and last question… they seem to specify that they follow a specific pattern and I don’t really know what is involved in getting them to work with the vertex.

The plates Gert sells come with a laminated chart for 40:1 and 60: ratio heads and tables but we also have the charts for 72 and 90:1

Other than the Myford ones which are finished to fit the Myford all the other just have a pilot hole in the centre of 5/8" or 15mm so the user can bore out to fit whatever they have, same for mounting holes.

.

Silverback
01-10-2009, 09:48 PM
Use a hoist for heavy lifting
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lane5263/Hoistformill002.jpg

lane... nice setup, but I'm even more curious what/how you have it attached to. That and do you have better pictures of those racks for tooling and stuff you have all over that mill? Storing tooling and hanging more stuff off the mill is one of my major things right now...

oldtiffie
01-11-2009, 12:13 AM
That again falls right into my previous question and last question… they seem to specify that they follow a specific pattern and I don’t really know what is involved in getting them to work with the vertex.

Mark,
here are the links to the "Vertex" Handbook which is the same for my 6" and 10". I can check for sure but I think I am right.

The indexing plates will require the indexing arms as well - of course - but they are "make-able".

Other than for gears and more than say 12 holes on a (pitch) circle, I rarely use them as I find it better to just write down the figure in degree from the scale on the RT table and finish off with the hand-wheel. Its all too easy to get distracted and get lost and lose or gain a turn using index plates.

Its not a time thing with me as speed is not an issue. I don't have hurry and don't.

My 10" "Vertex" is a "quick indexer" in that it has a 24-slot indexing plate built into the back of it. It also has several masking plates that work with it for holes/slots/anything on a circle for say 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 so it is very versatile and very accurate. Making other or new plates is not difficult as they are made from ( I need to check to conform) 1/8" plate. I can get the details for you if you need them.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_4.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_5.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/Vertex_rotab6_8.jpg

oldtiffie
01-11-2009, 02:26 AM
Hi "silverback".

I owe you an apology - several in fact - as I rushed in and relied on memory and buggered it up.

I checked the hand-book this time and two things emerged:
- my "Vertex" rotab is an 8" - not 10". The chuck is 8" and the face-plate is 10"; and

- the 8" hand-book IS different to the 6" as it includes the quick indexer.

If you want to check if yours is a "quick-indexer":
- there will be a "spare" handle on the front-left; and

- if you turn the rotab over on its back, see if there is a removeable plate/disc held on with 3/M4 counter-sunk screws. If there is, remove it and if there is a fixed plate with 24 slots around its periphery that in turn are engaged/spragged with a spring-loaded plunger - you have the "quick indexed" model.

I will scan and post the 8" hand-book in the next day or so and will PM/email you when it is posted.

oldtiffie
01-11-2009, 04:44 AM
Hi "silverback" (Mark).

The 8" "Vertex" rotary table hand-book scans are appended:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual4.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual5.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual8.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual9.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual10.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vertex_Rotab_hand-book/8Vertex_Rotab_Manual11.jpg

rode2rouen
01-11-2009, 01:49 PM
Storing tooling and hanging more stuff off the mill is one of my major things right now...





I was able to kill two birds with one Cole Steel cabinet. The cabinet is 37"H X 30.5"W X 17"D. I made an angle iron frame for the bottom with swivel casters at each corner, allowing easy mobility around the garage. To handle the weight of my 9" H/V Troyke rotary table and 6" Kurt swivel vise, I mounted a 1/4" steel plate to the top of the cabinet.

With all of the tooling for my Index 645 mill on the top 2 shelves, and tooling for my Diacro #4 bender on the bottom, it saves a lot of space.

The best part is easy swaps or removal of the rotary table and the vise from the mill. I wheel the cabinet over to the mill, crank the knee to the height of the top of the cabinet, then slide either on or off as needed.

Here's some pics:

Nondescript mobile utility cabinet.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise1.jpg

Lotsa stuff packed in there.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise2.jpg

Rotary table on the cabinet, vise on the mill in background
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise3.jpg

More to follow.


Rex

rode2rouen
01-11-2009, 01:53 PM
Cabinet next to mill table, vise off mill.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise4.jpg

Rotary table on mill table.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise5.jpg

Rotary table ready for positioning and tramming.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Vise%20Swap/vise6.jpg


No heavy lifting or unpleasant bending!


Rex

lazlo
01-11-2009, 01:55 PM
That again falls right into my previous question and last question… they seem to specify that they follow a specific pattern and I don’t really know what is involved in getting them to work with the vertex.

I just checked Tiffie's Vertex dividing tables (link number 9) and that's the standard 90:1 table.

So any cheap set of 90:1 dividing plates will work, as long as they physically fit the rotab handle. I bought the equivalent of this set on Ebay and modified them to fit my Yuasa:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=310111974735

The 6" and 8" rotab dividing wheel sets are usually the same size, and the 10" and 12" rotab dividing wheels are the same (but bigger diameter).

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 02:03 PM
At the risk of starting a flame war may I submit this previously published picture for your perusal ?http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/Bridgycrane1.jpg
Fits on the rear mounting on a Bridgy and uses a hand operated trailer winch with strap and not wire rope.
That rotor weighs about 200#

.

lazlo
01-11-2009, 02:43 PM
At the risk of starting a flame war may I submit this previously published picture for your perusal ?

I like Lane's attachment better, because it frees-up the rear clevis to hold his airhose :D

Seriously, using the turret clamp is nice if you're using the rear clevis for a slotting head, but the "real" Bridgeport casting makes Lane's attachment tough because of the curved casting.

Peter N
01-11-2009, 03:40 PM
I'm a couple of weeks late on this thread too :D , but whilst I'm here I thought I'd just add to the information on larger size rotary tables.

This is a picture of my 10" Hilby table, on the old 6x26 I used to have, next to a 4" vice for comparison. I don't know exactly how much it weighs, but I do know that it has definitely got heavier than it was 3 years ago...

http://www.btinternet.com/~p.neill/10inchRotary_Table.jpeg


Peter

jkilroy
01-11-2009, 03:47 PM
I've been meaning to build one of Mr. Stevenson's hoist rigs for a while, not having to drill holes in the machine is a plus for me.

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 03:53 PM
John, at risk of being accused of hi-jacking, I cannot get onto the ME TOOLS website. You cannot open the categories unless you are logged in, and I cannot create an account. The "continue" button just keeps bringing me back to the same page.

jkilroy
01-11-2009, 04:49 PM
Can't figure out how to delete this, sorry

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 05:32 PM
Jim,
Just spoke to the Webmaster, small son, and he says do you have Java script enabled? if not it takes you back to the start.

.

oldtiffie
01-11-2009, 06:53 PM
There is some good stuff here.

I do like "rode2rouen" (Rex)'s idea of the rotab and Kurt vice on the top of a mobile cabinet/stand that is about the same height as the mill table as it makes the transfer and transport as easy as it can be. It also applies to all mills - not just a BP. My problem is that my cabinet-space is right along-side the roller door to my shop/shed/ex-garage and faces the prevailing weather. I have the roller door open all the time I am in the shop. But as a universal solution or fall-back this option is hard to beat.

I do like John S's and Lane's hoists as they obviously work well and will work for any heights of mill table and the heights where the rotary table (or anything else) has to be lifted from or lowered to. But they require something of the mass and "foot-print" of large BP or Van-Norman mills or the like if they are to be mounted on or fixed to the mill. I can't see it working on my HF-45 square column mill which for a mill-drill is pretty solid. There are smaller mills than mine that have vises and rotary tables of the equivalent of 8" or 10" rotabs and 6" Kurt vises on them so those options may not be viable there. Unless I am quite mistaken - I hope so - those types of "pawl and ratchet" lifters that John and Lane have used are for pulling only and not for lifting - or that is what the labels on the boxes etc. said when I saw them recently. The same applies to the "Come-alongs" which I almost found out the hard way recently when I had a trailer suspended on one. Lifting it was OK but if the pawl either mal-functioned or got away from me (nearly did - twice) I'd have had a disaster. So off I went and bought a new 1/2 ton chain block - to replace one I gave away about 6 months ago - good lessons learned there. It was not as if I didn't know and appreciate the risks and problems as part of the last job I had was getting all lifting gear and pressure vessels tested and certified and enforcing compliance as regards use - and mis-use. Again, the lesson was driven home when I saw a genuine US-made 1,000# PullzAll (a great hoist/puller etc.) just before Christmas that I should have bought earlier - so I bought it.
http://www.pullzall.com.au/default.asp?action=article&ID=30

So all-in-all, I was just stretching my luck just too far too often. I learned my lesson and paid for it - literally. I do have a 1 ton floor crane as well but can't get good enough access to the mill table and where the rotary table is stored under bench.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=A350

I have pretty well given away the over-head and hoist lift/lower option and am going to use my 1/2 ton mobile hydraulic trolley and make sliders to get the rotab on and off the shelf (under the bench) and the mill table.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=J055

Yep - you guessed it, I had the trolley all along through-out this French-farce cum Greek tragedy comedy of errors.

Frankly, I don't care what it costs in terms of time, effort or money to get this right as I am determined to get it right and to minimize my risks - I know that I willnever eliminate all risks and that I will have to take some - but that's life. I've seen more than enough work-related and industrail accidents and the people - not just the victim - who were affected by them - not nice or pretty - at all.

I had 2 prolapsed disks in my back - and the Sciatica that went with it as well as 2 weeks on my back in "Traction" on a sheet of 7-ply ply-wood with weights on my legs for 2 weeks followed up by regular trips to the Physio-therapist - 6 months - and daily "physio" exercises and very limited capacity for more than 2 years. I had to sign a disclaimer for any possible surgery as I could have be parapriplegic (waist-down) if the knife had got too close or slipped - it was that close. It was also possible that I could have been in a supportive corset/brace and/or a wheel-chair for the rest of my life. I was lucky - very - but the lesson was learned. It was caused by lifting a cylinder-head off a 6-cylinder engine while I was standing over it in the worst possible way while the engine was still in the car.

The weight of the cylinder head was less than that of my 8" rotary table but even though the cylinder head weighed less than the rotab and the rotab lift is less awkward - neither, in my circumstances, the risks associated with lifting should not be taken lightly.

I was - in a way - lucky I guess with my back, but I was in my 40's then and I am in my 70's now.

This is one of the reasons why I don't have a vise wider than 3" and that I am very careful with my larger angle plates. It is also why I avoid a larger mill or lathe etc. as any chuck over 6" is potentially a big risk if things get out of control or go wrong.

Self-evidently, not all heavy stuff can be stored on top of a mobile cabinet either.

My guess is that others are similar as regards rotary tables and lifting in the shop.

I can make pretty good lifts for my weight and age, but I try to ensure that I don't push my luck or limits.

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 08:30 PM
Jim,
Just spoke to the Webmaster, small son, and he says do you have Java script enabled? if not it takes you back to the start.

.

Apparently I do not. I know nothing from Java Script. You might explain to SS that many of us old curmudgeons are not particularly computer literate, and once poking a couple of buttons doesn't work, shrug our shoulders and move on. Having to log on to browse the store is an annoyance, and not accomplishing that, interest to go any farther quickly wanes.

lane
01-11-2009, 08:31 PM
lane... nice setup, but I'm even more curious what/how you have it attached to. That and do you have better pictures of those racks for tooling and stuff you have all over that mill? Storing tooling and hanging more stuff off the mill is one of my major things right now...


Here you go
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lane5263/Hoistformill003.jpg

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w277/lane5263/Hoistformill004.jpg

Hope this will help. Their is a 1 1/2diameter pin about 8 inches long bolted to the black bracket which is bolted to the mill with the 2 turret bolts and the hoist will slip over and drob down and rotate on the pin.

BadDog
01-11-2009, 08:52 PM
Is there no concern for the "spider"? I've heard that over tightening the bolts can break it, so what about the bending load inputs from that lift?

lazlo
01-11-2009, 08:58 PM
Apparently I do not. I know nothing from Java Script.

Jim, presuming you're using Internet Explorer, he's how to enable Javascript:


On the Tools menu, click Internet Options, and then click the Security tab

Select Internet Zone

Click on the Default Level (or "Custom Security Level") at the bottom right of the screen

In the Security Settings that pop up, scroll to the bottom and you'll see a section entitled Scripting

Click Enable for Active Scripting

lane
01-11-2009, 09:06 PM
Is there no concern for the "spider"? I've heard that over tightening the bolts can break it, so what about the bending load inputs from that lift?

Why worry about the spider you pick up the whole machine by screwing a I bolt in top of the ram . I an only picking up a rotary table are a super spacer. 200ld max.

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 09:59 PM
Thanks Robert, but no IE, Java script, or particular interest to get either.

lazlo
01-11-2009, 10:04 PM
Thanks Robert, but no IE, Java script, or particular interest to get either.

It's a lot easier to enable Javascript on Firefox (or are you using Safari?).

Firefox:

Tools->Options->Content->Enable Javascript

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 10:10 PM
No Firefox or Safari. Just this computer I bought and plugged in.

BadDog
01-12-2009, 12:07 AM
Why worry about the spider you pick up the whole machine by screwing a I bolt in top of the ram . I an only picking up a rotary table are a super spacer. 200ld max.
Hmmm, good point... :o There is a great deal amplified by the leverage, but seems unlikely to be an issue. I've just had enough of my ideas go wrong, even when stolen... er... INSPIRED by the work of others, that I look of any source of problems...

Silverback
01-13-2009, 06:47 PM
Wow, go away from your own thread for a couple of days and you get a few pages behind...

Oldtiffie- wow, I don’t even know where to begin, thanks for all the info here and in PM...

rode2rouen – yep, that’s exactly the kind of thing I was thinking about doing, but my cabinet would have to be under about 22” wide to fit in the space between the table and the garage door that I want to be able to store it in.


At the risk of starting a flame war may I submit this previously published picture for your perusal ?http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/Bridgycrane1.jpg
Fits on the rear mounting on a Bridgy and uses a hand operated trailer winch with strap and not wire rope.
That rotor weighs about 200#.

That absolutely rocks! I’ve been avoiding some sort of crane/trolley setup because of my location under the garage door, I figured that if I needed to do something like a heavier engine part or something I could always drag out my engine crane, but something like that would totally eliminate the problem, it doesn’t add any height to the mill which was my concern with the garage door… I’m assuming from some of the comments you have a “build thread” somewhere on the board… I’m going to need to dig that up unless someone has it handy/wants to point me at it? Right now I’m thinking that I could use a wheel hub with 2 tapered bearings or maybe a bike steering hub (not sure that’s heavy duty enough) to support it, and I would turn the initial part of the arm the other way for a little more strength… heck, the Bridgeport table is rated for 750#, right? ;) Of course, if I did something like that I would have to stop using that mounting hole as a wire guide and I’d be another one that would have to move my air hose…
;)

Oldtiffie- some of those winches and come-alongs are rated for lifting, most are not. WRT to the prolapsed disks… I have both a genetic card dealt against me (spinal stenosis, _everyone_ on my dad’s side of the family including me and my brother have a narrower than normal lower back/spine, which makes us all extremely prone to back injuries, my brother ended up having to have three of his vertebra fused, in high school he had a problem that if he got bumped the wrong way and ended up with any swelling the area around his spinal cord was so tight that he’d be paralyzed from that point down till the swelling went down), and I didn’t make things any better with some of that heavy lifting (my back X-ray shows that all my lumbar disks are crushed down to about 1/3 of the thickness they should be).

At one point after a really bad back injury where I ended up with prescribed “stay in bed” and painkillers for something like 2 months, some ineffective physical therapy… I ended up going a chiropractor that was also the trainer for my college football team, and he taught me more about dealing with this kind of stuff than anything else. I’ve heard it also referred to as the circus performer’s approach to healing injuries, but it’s also what gets done when you’re playing ball or something and _have_ to perform. The fact is that with most types of injuries like this resting doesn’t help, it causes things to stiffen up and for the muscles to get weaker, preventing you from getting better and when you finally do get better you end up weaker and more prone to injury again the next time. You do what it takes to get you moving, ice, anti-inflammatory, painkillers…, and then _get moving_! That keeps things flexible and it tells the body “fix this and make it stronger,” so you end up healing up much faster and better. I can give you a number of examples where this has worked out for me since I’m prone to those kinds of injuries, even one case involving a car accident. Where this gets back to prolapsed disks… there’s an ugly medical secret there. There is no correlation between a bulging or impinging disk and pain or numbness, it’s been shown that a doctor can’t predict if it will cause symptoms or not from the appearances on the MRI or whatever, and if people with no back problems are scanned more than half will show conditions there that most back doctors would predict should be causing problems (which is to say, that most disk problems are normal and just coincidental with the symptoms that you’re chasing, which is why treatment, especially surgery, tends to end up long and painful and not usually successful, for those that it does work it’s been show that they were as likely to get better with the treatment than without).

Silverback
01-13-2009, 06:51 PM
Huh, should it bother me that the 10” vertex and a set of dividing plates and arms is listed in UPS tracking as having a shipping weight of 87.5lbs, if it seems that most list them at over 100#???

Should be here tomorrow... I can't wait.

derekm
02-10-2009, 09:48 AM
This one uses a different solution. Made like an intravenous drip stand but out of 2" scaffold tube, with some industrial castors, a pulley off a car starter motor and an old 500kg/250kg wire hoist I'd inherited but needed fixing.

This was all made from stuff lying around or obtained in return for a beer.
My storage for the Dh & RT are at floor level seen at the back of the picture
The procedure is

Pull RT or DH out on to a low dolly (see the bottom of the picture.)
Slide to the crane,
Hoist it
slide the crane jib over the table.
Lower on to table

The legs are at right angles so that it can get in close to the table.
The dimensions of the legs, the jib and overall height were chosen to keep the CG well the inside the base of the crane
http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/Crane.jpg

hardtail
02-10-2009, 02:45 PM
derekm that is a load for sure.......nice job of the hoist, is there enough room on the table for all of it??

SB that does sound a bit light, you must have recieved it by now, what are your first impressions???

derekm
02-10-2009, 06:22 PM
derekm that is a load for sure.......nice job of the hoist, is there enough room on the table for all of it??
???

LOL :) no that was me just testing the hoist with both...
It sure is nice not to have that nervous feeling lifting those slippery awkward heavy S*ds by hand,

Silverback
08-10-2009, 04:49 PM
derekm that is a load for sure.......nice job of the hoist, is there enough room on the table for all of it??

SB that does sound a bit light, you must have recieved it by now, what are your first impressions???

Sorry for the VERY late reply, but yea, I had it by the time you posted it and I have to say that it absolutely rocks... I couldn't be happier with it.

Since then I've run into a much bigger problem of just plain running out of space. Now that I have a lot of the tools I though I wanted (of course that means that I need more ;) ) I don't have enough room left to get the work done that I want to do with them (being a car guy, I would have to be able to get the car in the shop to do some of it, and that is absolutely impossible like that).

kvom
08-10-2009, 10:09 PM
An interesting thread. I bought a 8" Phase II H/V table today, and it's sitting in its crate in the shop waiting for unveiling tomorrow. I previously use a Yuasa 10" at school; that's a nice table. I plan to use a service cart to load/unload the rt to/from the Bridgeport, although I did manage to carry the crate into the shop.

hardtail
08-11-2009, 12:19 PM
SB don't know if you ever go over to Practical Machinist but if so where theres a problem theres always a solution........have a look at OldCarGuy's post in the member post/shop category at the bottom.........nothing the continual task of building more shops won't cure..........LOL

Silverback
08-12-2009, 12:06 AM
heh... I just found it, showed it to the wife, she doesn't get it. OTOH, I could move in right now...
:)