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View Full Version : Cable TV just gets worse and worse on the technicalities.



winchman
01-05-2009, 08:19 AM
Yesterday I saw a head to head between comparison between an electric snowmobile and a production Yamaha powered by a 3-cylinder 4-stroke engine.

They were talking about how the 4-stroke was such an improvement over the 2-strokes, and they showed some engine cutaway illustrations. Their illustration for the 2-stroke had two overhead valves, and the illustration for the 4-stroke had four overhead valves.

In another program about a high-performance plane, the illustration showed a radial engine attached to the front of the flat opposed engine under the cowl.

Then there was show about construction where the load on the crane boom was over reported at over 1,000,000 PSI.

And another where a huge bridge section was being held to a tolerance of 0.005" while being welded together in an open shop. But they did say something about having a piano wires stretched through the structure to measure from. I'll give them a point for that.

Roger

HSS
01-05-2009, 09:33 AM
Roger, It has been that way for years. When I got out of the army, my biggest gripe was the helicopter sound they put with the helicopter they are showing on the TV, and they are still doing it. I think they are saving money on technical consulting, or their consultants don't have a clue either.

Pat

Your Old Dog
01-05-2009, 09:55 AM
I worked in that business for 35 + years. The person who wrote that has a background in journalism and not engineering. He will likely be given a day if it's TV News story or maybe a couple weeks if it's a special for network. If they have a serious fault, it's that their ego's won't let them show the story to the person they did it with so that they may be corrected when they are way off base. Something about giving up liberties of the press :D

Most try to get it right but they still get it wrong at times. Like using a pistol image over the shoulder of the anchorman when some is shot with a rifle or shotgun. Problem is people get the idea that only pistols are a problem. When you see that, you should call the station and complain. They view each phone call as 100 po'd citizens but only 1 in 100 is motivate enough to go the the phone and call.

aboard_epsilon
01-05-2009, 10:04 AM
Yesterday I saw a head to head between comparison between an electric snowmobile and a production Yamaha powered by a 3-cylinder 4-stroke engine.

They were talking about how the 4-stroke was such an improvement over the 2-strokes, and they showed some engine cutaway illustrations. Their illustration for the 2-stroke had two overhead valves, and the illustration for the 4-stroke had four overhead valves.

In another program about a high-performance plane, the illustration showed a radial engine attached to the front of the flat opposed engine under the cowl.

Then there was show about construction where the load on the crane boom was over reported at over 1,000,000 PSI.

And another where a huge bridge section was being held to a tolerance of 0.005" while being welded together in an open shop. But they did say something about having a piano wires stretched through the structure to measure from. I'll give them a point for that.

Roger

Just wait till you have to argue with someone ...that his right is wrong.
'cos he seen it on tv...you will never win the argument.

all the best.markj

rode2rouen
01-05-2009, 10:28 AM
Just wait till you have to argue with someone ...that his right is wrong.
'cos he seen it on tv...you will never win the argument.




Yeah, but.......I saw it on the Interweb, so it's got to be true!! :D


Rex

Dawai
01-05-2009, 11:02 AM
THEN imagine the insurance techs watching Orange county Choppers doing things on the mill... remember the bleeding fingers? and then coming to get a quote on your small home-workshop..

OMG.. that thing can rip fingers off..

Pre-stressed concrete is what the last thing was.. concrete pulled with cables and stressed portions to attach to other pre-stressed concrete sections in a bridge??

some older two stroke diesels did have top valves.. and bottom exhaust blow holes too.. I remember seeing one.. forget where.. it was one valve in the top thou.. I was really confused for a bit.. Heck I am still confused at times..

Learning bad information is bad.. they rewrite the history books too thou. There was a black man, very old.. the local people in the state park interviewed him, he was a slave way back when..
He was over a hundred years old.. they recorded stories about the Wilder tower, chickamauga battlefield and other area novelties.. Talking to "other older black people in the area" they said.. " that man is the biggest liar of three states.. he made his living selling bad moonshine and telling lies so much he started believing them himself..

And do you know what? they put a plaque up stating his words as fact.. I had a picture of it somewhere..

History is, two people agreeing on the same thing and writing it down as fact.. if you were not there, you have to trust the ones doing the writing or decipher the false portions.. when they take a bit of fact you can verify and attach a whopper to it.. well it looks believable..

And to think, a lot of us were partially educated on the tele.. a baby sitter.. a idiot box.. I get a glaze on my eyes when GENE AUTRY comes on.. I always wanted a horse like Trigger..

RancherBill
01-05-2009, 11:15 AM
Yeah, but.......I saw it on the Interweb, so it's got to be true!! :D


Which truth? The best reads here are the discussions of tips / techniques / procedure / physics etc. There sometimes is not an answer.

The poor artsy types that have to create a sound track from available hellicopter recordings are really up against the wall. In their defence they, at least, are showing the engine at the right end of the snowmobile and right side up. :D :D

Dawai
01-05-2009, 11:22 AM
Indiana jones riding a "retro motorcycle" through a library in his latest film.. it has disc brakes.. appears to be a twin cam engine... in 1957.. At least it had a kick start.

Lil things like that.. put into a movie.. become history.

Mississippi burning, the bathroom scene.. the murder of Meggar Evers is now a historical film.. even the fictional bathroom scene.. Odds are that old bastich did shoot him, he left a rifle he had bought there, he had a scope-recoil ring around his eye, he bragged about it at klan meetings in the south.. what do you think? it took them till the 90s to catch up with him, living about thirty miles from here.. it was a real surprise to his wife when he was arrested..

Lee harvey Oswald, he wrote a book.. I read it, don't have it here now.. his story title? Who shot Martin Luther king.. he wanted to play it off as a conspiracy.. reading the book between the lines, he was bragging about breaking out of prison, bragging about doing illegal things.. Liars and crooks go together hand in hand.. I'd say he did it.

It has not made it to tele as fact, yet...

radkins
01-05-2009, 11:30 AM
I always get a kick out of the TV news reference to "High octane jet fuel", every time there is a mishap involving an aircraft there will be a reference to "High octane fuel" as if the octane rating makes it more flammable or some other such BS- as if jet fuel had an octane rating anyway!:rolleyes:

aboard_epsilon
01-05-2009, 11:34 AM
talking of idiana jones ..didnt they have a huge LED count down timer in the same film

all the best.markj

dan s
01-05-2009, 12:57 PM
here is a CNN jewel from a while back.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/964/cnn28nu.jpg

derekm
01-05-2009, 01:18 PM
The most iconic bird inn the British country side and in towns is the Robin, a quite small dimunitive and rather agressive bird... in fact the most popular christmaqs card motif. So Walt Disney was correct to feature it in Mary Poppins which is set in London . But they substitute it with a bird 4 times the size and furthmore not even native to the UK or even Europe - A North American Robin! ...

My favourite Hollywood peeves are

Squared rigged sailing ships - usually moving too fast for the wind or with too much sail set or moving in a direction they couldnt possibly go.

The almost total absence of Science in Sci-fi
i.e:
Sound in space. (2001 is a noble exception - I cant hear that waltz without see the spaceship docking)
Spacecraft banking to turn. (!)
Total abscence of Special Relativity. (James T Kirk and Jean-luc cant meet up with their ex-colleagues and be similar ages)

Dawai
01-05-2009, 01:26 PM
Dan, Must have been my buddy Porky that wrote that headline..

We were out drinking Moonshine in his built Nova.. the law got after us. He opened it up.. it was going about 140 or so when the lights started getting dim. The police car was lost in in the rearview. THE motor was over-revving and the altenator belt had jumped the pulleys. We left the car in a trailer court behind a buddy's place. Radiator blowed out, motor steaming, would not crank and was missing.. At them high speeds the fan was circulating water.. somewhat..

NOW dey got helicopters.. drunks get ran down and beat well.

He still says it was outrunning the head lights..
The %@@% moonshine was not that good. The world is full of them good intentioned ignorant people who don't realize they are..

I could call him at 3am, he'd be there with a spare tire or with a truck to pick up a broken harley.. We broke all the furniture in his kitchen the last time we drank tequlia together thou. A real friend, just no Eienstien.

dp
01-05-2009, 01:47 PM
I get a glaze on my eyes when GENE AUTRY comes on.. I always wanted a horse like Trigger..

Gene probably fancied a horse like Trigger, too, but he was happy with Champion as it was Roy who rode into the sunset on Trigger. :D

Liger Zero
01-05-2009, 01:58 PM
Nuclear anything on TV.

Trying to champion nuclear power is complicated enough without Fox telling wonderful stories about some sort of override code that can control ALL nuclear reactors in the country, something that terrorists can steal. And that wonderful myth that ALL nuclear reactors can explode? Well look up the BORAX experiments, then compare the conclusions and design changes that came about because of BORAX and compare the design of an American reactor to that of Chernobyl. Or a Canadian reactor. Or a British reactor. There are all different sorts, alot of people don't know that.


The nuclear plant here in this town, Ginna Station, had a steam-generator (boiler) tube rupture back in '82. While serious, tube ruptures are planned for and the crew reacted quickly to prevent a major release...

...but according to the "survivors" in the area the damn thing almost exploded and every little health quirk is blamed on the "mushroom cloud of toxic steam" that the plant released, not the chemical plant that mixes various types of poison together into exotic polymers that begin with numbers and contain more letters than a dictionary, not the electronics company with its lead solder and PCB etching chemicals, nor the plastic company that smells like burnt plastic all the live long day.

They don't teach enough physics or basic science anymore in schools so people absorb the crap from TV shows and TV news and accept it as "true science."

Circlip
01-05-2009, 02:37 PM
Or the number of people involved with (Or in the case of the people that have the power to release armaggedon on the rest of us) the nuclear industry that can't PRONOUNCE the bl**dy word. Rocket Science for Presidents--- NEW CLEAR, not NEW QUE LAR.

Sends shivvers down your spine (although if they cant spell it, they wouldn't be able to find the button--- Whew.)

Regards Ian

radkins
01-05-2009, 02:56 PM
The almost total absence of Science in Sci-fi
i.e:
Sound in space. (2001 is a noble exception - I cant hear that waltz without see the spaceship docking)
Spacecraft banking to turn. (!)
Total abscence of Special Relativity. (James T Kirk and Jean-luc cant meet up with their ex-colleagues and be similar ages)


Don't forget that EVERY creature in the universe even from the far side of the galaxy all speak English, not German, Spanish or Russian but English.

mochinist
01-05-2009, 04:46 PM
Don't forget that EVERY creature in the universe even from the far side of the galaxy all speak English, not German, Spanish or Russian but English.Would you prefer subtitles and have them speak some jibberish language to make it more realistic?

BadDog
01-05-2009, 04:54 PM
Yes... :D

Or at least hear the giberish at a lower "background level" while the Universal Translator (or whatever) does the translation.

Explosions and banking space craft are a personal pet peeve, as are ships that get "surrounded" by 3 other ships (anyone understand 3D?) that (almost) always in the same plane and all happen to have same relative "up" (also true when any 2 ships meet at any arbitrary point in 3D space).

But then again, most all movies, SciFi or other drive me to distraction. I'm not an expert in all things, but come on, some of the most basic stuff they screw up. They completely screw up pretty much ANYTHING with computers, automotive, machines; anything at all technical really. How much can basic technical consultants cost as a portion of multi-million dollar productions?

Liger Zero
01-05-2009, 05:26 PM
Ok I expect to be teased for this but I belong to a Star Trek Role-Playing group... Given my background in Technical Stuff and my love of Sci Fi I have become something of a "consultent" for other RPG chapters throughout the area and online. They ask me to come up with plusable explinations for the technical things that might happen during a given story. Love the job, but the pay sucks. :D

There were two chaps Rick Sternbach and Andy Probert who came up with most of the technical detail for Star Trek The Next Generation, but often times the facts they laid out would be ignored in favor of "better storytelling." In fact it was like this throughout most of the televised runs of the show, the last one "Enterprise" being the all-out worst with it declaring that the Klingon Homworld was less than four lightyears from Earth.

The nearest star is four and some change lightyears away. NOTHING is closer. BLARRRGH. Star Trek Voyager totally blew it for me during the first few episodes with the idea that the "event horizon" of a black-hole could have a crack or fissure in it that the ship could escape from. I mean... wow. That just hurts. Thermogenic particles are the subatomic particles of heat? Wait... what?


Aside from Star Trek, another TV show close to my heart was Airwolf. Intrestingly enough the technical art and detail was done by Andrew Probert (later of Star Trek TNG fame)... The concept that a Bell 222 could lift all that weight, travel across the ocean without refuling, then fire missiles out of a triplet of stovepipes... quite cool when one is an impressible preteen. Now I find it astounding that they could fire missles bigger than the entire 'chopper out of a stove-pipe, and I wonder were they stored the ammo for the "chain-guns." Not in the winglets, all that space is taken up by those two jet engines. And don't EVEN get me started on the folding retractable gun barrels. :D

Dawai
01-05-2009, 05:28 PM
DP:

See there? perhaps we were outrunning the headlights?? HA... nahh..
Champion?? Heck, I watch so much western I probably thought Frog Millhouse was on?? seems he was with Autry.. Comic sidekick? started a fad.. continued on with Batman and Robin..

In some things we may be genius, others a moron.. I can remember someone who had a military escort have a flat tire.. the driver said he didn't know how to change a tire.. so the officer got out and changed it in the rain.. As he was soaking wet and putting the hubcap back on, he realized who was really stupid.. the driver was sitting in the car nice and dry and warm..

All my brain cells at times seem to be shorting together.. I tried for two hours to remember the young pretty things name I lived with for six months in the 80s... I still can't recall.. good thing we didn't have kids together huh?

David

oddball racing
01-05-2009, 05:58 PM
In their defence they, at least, are showing the engine at the right end of the snowmobile and right side up. :D :D
It's just that they're showing it with a one lunger Detroit Diesel as Cofer pointed out:p .

Imagine that, a diesel sled !.....:eek: .... Ahem, Hey, Torker, Heres a new idea for yer next project!

oddball racing
01-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Or the number of people involved with (Or in the case of the people that have the power to release armaggedon on the rest of us) the nuclear industry that can't PRONOUNCE the bl**dy word. Rocket Science for Presidents--- NEW CLEAR, not NEW QUE LAR.

Sends shivvers down your spine (although if they cant spell it, they wouldn't be able to find the button--- Whew.)

Regards Ian
That always embarasses me as an American. Ya think the boob could learn to pronounce that that for the rest of us.

Liger Zero
01-05-2009, 06:13 PM
Well the "boob" is an oilman at heart so why should he bother to pronounce "nuclear" right? It's not like he needs to learn anything about it other than "it reduced dependency on oil therefore it must be stopped."

HSS
01-05-2009, 06:16 PM
Or the number of people involved with (Or in the case of the people that have the power to release armaggedon on the rest of us) the nuclear industry that can't PRONOUNCE the bl**dy word. Rocket Science for Presidents--- NEW CLEAR, not NEW QUE LAR.

Sends shivvers down your spine (although if they cant spell it, they wouldn't be able to find the button--- Whew.)

Regards Ian


I think we might have Jimmy Carter to thank for that pronunciation bastardization. And he was a nu-cu-lar engineer.:eek:

Pat

Willy
01-05-2009, 06:17 PM
some older two stroke diesels did have top valves.. and bottom exhaust blow holes too.. I remember seeing one.. forget where.. it was one valve in the top thou.. I was really confused for a bit..


David think Detroit Diesel, 8-71 and 6-71 were the most popular. Intakes through the top side of the block into ports in the cylinder liners, exhaust through conventional poppet valves in the heads.
You are probably familiar with 6-71 or 8-71 blowers used in hot rods, they were originally designed as scavenge blowers for the Detroit Diesels. There were others in the Detroit Diesel 2 stroke series as well, 53, 92, and 149 series are also very common. The series numbers correspond to the cubic inches per cylinder.
You can always be sure you're listening to a Detroit, because being a two stroke, even at two thousand rpm they sound like they are doing four thousand!

jdunmyer
01-05-2009, 07:13 PM
It's said that the 2-stroke Detroit Diesels are the world's most efficient device for turning Diesel fuel into noise.

My John Deere backhoe has a 2-53 in it; sounds like it's turning at least 4000 Rpm.

KiddZimaHater
01-05-2009, 08:04 PM
Lee harvey Oswald, he wrote a book.. I read it, don't have it here now.. his story title? Who shot Martin Luther king.. he wanted to play it off as a conspiracy
Don't you mean James Earl Ray?

BillH
01-05-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't watch TV, maybe once in awhile I'll watch history or discovery, but 99% of tv insults my intellect.

wierdscience
01-05-2009, 08:35 PM
Indiana jones riding a "retro motorcycle" through a library in his latest film.. it has disc brakes.. appears to be a twin cam engine... in 1957.. At least it had a kick start.

Lil things like that.. put into a movie.. become history.
...

Haha David,did you see the Southpark episode where the boys convinced the FBI to arrest George Lucas and Steven Spielberg for Raping Indiana Jones?:D

My boss was once told by an IRS auditor that they were dis-allowing his deductions because-"Her supervisor had seen a show on TV that stated self-employed auto mechanics made between $80-100,000/year and didn't report all thier cash earnings"

Never mind that he was/is an engineer,owns a machineshop and never has been a mechanic:rolleyes:

Dawai
01-05-2009, 08:43 PM
Champion had the pistols on his bridle??
I am so confused now.. sh.....

James Earl Ray? Lee harvey Oswald shot Kennedy? well ... okay.. More confusion today..

And I wonder why I typo and break of endmills in the cnc?? Ha.. now we all know..

It was Batman who had the magic Lasso??

Doc Nickel
01-05-2009, 08:49 PM
here is a CNN jewel from a while back.

-What's wrong with that? That's not even Warp Factor 3, and we all know the Enterprise can go way faster than that. :D

On the same note, that Schwarzenegger flick Eraser had something similar- the "rail guns" the baddies carried were supposed to, according to the dialogue, shoot an "aluminum slug" to "80% of the speed of light" (or similar nonsensical/impossible velocity.)

But then, errors in fantasy/sci-fi/fictional movies is something entirely else from getting basic facts wrong in a newscast or technical program.

Doc.

J. Randall
01-06-2009, 12:56 AM
Liger Zero, simple explanation for the Klingon Homeworld, they always kept it cloaked, nobody knew it was there.
James

macona
01-06-2009, 01:35 AM
The most iconic bird inn the British country side and in towns is the Robin, a quite small dimunitive and rather agressive bird... in fact the most popular christmaqs card motif. So Walt Disney was correct to feature it in Mary Poppins which is set in London . But they substitute it with a bird 4 times the size and furthmore not even native to the UK or even Europe - A North American Robin! ...

My favourite Hollywood peeves are

Squared rigged sailing ships - usually moving too fast for the wind or with too much sail set or moving in a direction they couldnt possibly go.

The almost total absence of Science in Sci-fi
i.e:
Sound in space. (2001 is a noble exception - I cant hear that waltz without see the spaceship docking)
Spacecraft banking to turn. (!)
Total abscence of Special Relativity. (James T Kirk and Jean-luc cant meet up with their ex-colleagues and be similar ages)

Firefly was another that had no sound in space. Ahh... Why do they kill the good series...

Dont you know warp fields negate time dilation?? Geesh, people...

macona
01-06-2009, 01:36 AM
-What's wrong with that? That's not even Warp Factor 3, and we all know the Enterprise can go way faster than that. :D

On the same note, that Schwarzenegger flick Eraser had something similar- the "rail guns" the baddies carried were supposed to, according to the dialogue, shoot an "aluminum slug" to "80% of the speed of light" (or similar nonsensical/impossible velocity.)

But then, errors in fantasy/sci-fi/fictional movies is something entirely else from getting basic facts wrong in a newscast or technical program.

Doc.

Actually rail guns do use aluminum slugs. Just not quite that fast!

macona
01-06-2009, 01:41 AM
the last one "Enterprise" being the all-out worst with it declaring that the Klingon Homworld was less than four lightyears from Earth.


Cant be much worse than "Shes a fast ship, did the Kessel run in less than 12 Parsecs." OOps...

They explained it away in a later novel but still...

Rich Carlstedt
01-06-2009, 02:11 AM
thats why I don't watch much TV

You mean you fellas don't object to the total lack of recoil when you see these 120 pound lady cops blast off 4 rounds from their Glock?
or after 150 rounds of close firing, they can hear whats going on in the next room ?

the worst to me and it's all the time.
Watch when they (usually cops but not always ) stop there cars.
there is always a squeel of rubber, even on dirt roads.. it hilarious.
tells me the special effects guys don't drive cars...must use horses to get to work.

rich

john hobdeclipe
01-06-2009, 08:45 AM
"Religion is the opium of the masses.".........Marx

"Television is the opium of the masses."............Hobdeclipe

Dawai
01-06-2009, 09:26 AM
And you left out the control and production of Food supplies can reduce the masses to slavery.

Debt slaves? I could go on for hours about that subject. Do you really need a 5,000 sq foot home?

mlucek
01-06-2009, 02:21 PM
thats why I don't watch much TV

You mean you fellas don't object to the total lack of recoil when you see these 120 pound lady cops blast off 4 rounds from their Glock?
or after 150 rounds of close firing, they can hear whats going on in the next room ? The MythBusters did an episode on gun myths, was pretty funny and telling !


the worst to me and it's all the time.
Watch when they (usually cops but not always ) stop there cars.
there is always a squeel of rubber, even on dirt roads.. it hilarious.
tells me the special effects guys don't drive cars...must use horses to get to work.

rich I'll have to look out for that now LOL :D

Anyone see the movie Wanted ? I had to laugh at most of the effects completely defying all known physics - e.g. curving bullet trajectories, cars flipping all over the place and still landing upright and intact .... yeah right. But it was an entertaining flick, putting aside the enginerds in all of us :rolleyes:

Mike

sansbury
01-06-2009, 02:59 PM
the worst to me and it's all the time.
Watch when they (usually cops but not always ) stop there cars.
there is always a squeel of rubber, even on dirt roads.. it hilarious.
tells me the special effects guys don't drive cars...must use horses to get to work.

Just be glad you're not a pilot. If you see anything aviation-related on TV, in the paper, or at the movies, it's safest to assume it's the opposite of reality.

lazlo
01-06-2009, 03:48 PM
Actually rail guns do use aluminum slugs. Just not quite that fast!

Railguns use the Lorentz force, where current is sent down one rail, through an armature holding the projectile, and back down the other rail. So the projectile has to be non-magnetic (usually aluminum), or it would crush into the rails :)

A coil gun, like you often see on Youtube, uses magnetic repulsion via a series of coils down the length of the barrel, pulsed in sequence. So the slug in a coil gun is magnetic, but coil guns are orders of magnitude less powerful than a railgun, so weapons like Arnie's are usually railguns, and not coilguns.

Now, what I want to know is how Arnie's railgun had a remote X-ray scope -- that defies any laws of Physics I know of :)

john hobdeclipe
01-06-2009, 07:55 PM
I thought this Taunton Press outfit was supposed to be top notch. Well, maybe not.

http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml09/09078.html

Dawai
01-06-2009, 09:51 PM
Faulty education? there was a engineer who used a fluke meter to read high voltage, when everyone came back from Lunch, they thought it was a dead black man laying there with his clothes burned off..

They outlawed Fluke meters on the jobsite.. Sure could not have been the engineer huh?

I make mistakes too, I made a lil hiroshima smoke mushroom come out of some electronics about a week back..
I did tie in a Gecko 320-3kva24vac-1000vac bridge rectifier-150vdc 2000uf capacitor-Sanyo Super L servo-computer wEMC2 today thou.. no smoke.. The xfrm is overkill. THE secondaries are about a 1/0... WHEN I first plugged it in, the inrush shut off the black computer here with all the cameras.. It's on a UPS.. Next thing you knowed I was on my hands and knees under the bench digging out the UPS.. IT NOW has a Harley sized gell 12 volt battery tied on it instead of the wimpy lil bitty dead one. I pulled the plug and it ran beeping the alarm for twenty plus minutes before I got tired of listening to it and replugged it in..

I didn't learn none of that on tele.. it came from a book.. anyone remember them? some are truth, some are fiction, some are fantasy written depictions of truth..

wierdscience
01-06-2009, 11:21 PM
thats why I don't watch much TV

You mean you fellas don't object to the total lack of recoil when you see these 120 pound lady cops blast off 4 rounds from their Glock?
or after 150 rounds of close firing, they can hear whats going on in the next room ?

the worst to me and it's all the time.
Watch when they (usually cops but not always ) stop there cars.
there is always a squeel of rubber, even on dirt roads.. it hilarious.
tells me the special effects guys don't drive cars...must use horses to get to work.

rich

I remember a movie with someone blasting away with an M-60,only no casings and no links coming out the otherside.

lazlo
01-07-2009, 12:32 AM
I remember a movie with someone blasting away with an M-60,only no casings and no links coming out the otherside.

When I worked for the Army Research Lab, we used to attend an arms show in Washington D.C. each year hosted by the Association of the US Army. It had the charming nickname in the contractor community of "Death Fest."

The last year I was there (1996) H&K had their G11 prototype on display -- it was a ~4.5 mm bullpub with caseless ammunition. The 50-round clip looked like a Pez dispenser, and the cartridge looked like bullet pushed onto a stick of gum. It was an ugly damn thing, and it didn't have an ejection port :)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/40/Gewehr_G11_sk.jpg

Rich Carlstedt
01-07-2009, 12:51 AM
Lazlo
Sounds like you had a job to die for ! ( no bullets intended)
I always wanted to work in a research envirionment and push the envelope.

But back to the movies.
Why do they always show research folks in white coats ( the ones I have been in had coveralls, or tan coats ) and you never see milling machines, only drill presses and lathes.

One more, why do bullets "spark" when they hit concrete in the car park shootouts?

but the most stupid one is when shooting starts, you see people running around and the bad guy grabs one. I have had only a single real life experience as such. and I can tell you that running (like a chicken) is the very last thing you want to do when bullets fly.
I Tried to make my body about 12 " square behind a engine block and found out it can't be done...
When I was a kid, I use to hunt, and saw rabbits when they were scared, and they would quiver that is indescribable.
During my experience, a cop with a 12 gauge was in front of me, and when I saw the same quiver in his legs from behind...I was ..terrified

Rich

Doc Nickel
01-07-2009, 06:01 AM
I remember a movie with someone blasting away with an M-60,only no casings and no links coming out the otherside.

-More than a few movie firearms aren't firearms, but dummies with a propane-fired gas jet to simulate the muzzle flash.

One of the clearest shots of this was in the movie Harlem Nights with Eddie Murphy and Richard Pryor. In one scene, Arsenio Hall plays a bad guy out to kill Murphy (who is yet nother bad guy, but a "good" bad guy.) Hall and two other goons are in the back of a Model-A type car (the movie is set in 1920s Harlem) and Hall is blubbering about how Murphy had killed Hall's brother (whatever the character names were.)

The whole time we see Hall (a series of fast cutscenes) he's holding a Thompson with a drum (of course) vertically. The car's cramped.

Anyway, the entire time we see a flame at the muzzle- sometimes it's a blast, because Hall's supposed to be randomly firing shots through the roof, sometimes it's a candle flame, blowing around, from the residual gas in the firing mechanism.


One more, why do bullets "spark" when they hit concrete in the car park shootouts?

-Because they use paintball guns, duh! :D

Seriously, they do. Years ago, they used very expensive custom-made airguns, but today, off-the-shelf paintball guns are cheaper, often more reliable, and hold more ammo.

The ammo is a plastic-shelled ball (unlike the gelatin shells of conventional paintballs) filled with a sparking compound very much like those old firework things you threw on the sidewalk and would make a loud 'crack'.

The idea is, of course, to simulate the impact of a bullet- which we all know, in the real world, isn't all that exciting, actually, unless you're shooting blocks of ice, jugs of water, or jars of pickles.

But, that means you get lead bullets that "spark" off of glass windshields and wooden walls. :D

Doc.

Dawai
01-07-2009, 08:42 AM
Lazlo..

The Han Research facility that pioneered that ammo for the caseless round. It was a multi-level research platform. It would randomly blow all the sheeting off the outside of the building.. the solution? Install Rubber strips like in a grocery store's backroom door..
Boom, then the strips would just lay back in place..

THE flow meters they were attempting to use on that HAN project? paddle wheel orifice type.. now them work well in a narrow range of flow in a narrow range of viscosity/SG. SUCK at anything outside the range, non linear. Trying to talk to the engineers about it.. THEY just rolled their eyes.. HA.. sometimes it takes years to train engineers to listen to you. Most times they just get tired of the butt chewing and go elsewhere. I kinda remember them saying it was a calibration problem to the lead dogs.. (I was a bench tech)

derekm
01-07-2009, 11:34 AM
Take a look/hear at a scene with any gunfire coming in from over 50m ...
In post production they often sync up the flash with the sound - but life isnt like that at all...

Sound does about 300m (331.3 in air at 0C) per second. So you will get a decernable lag (been to an arena pop concert with the big screens?) over 50m (1/6 second). With modern weaponry they should go flash, phht(optional splat), bang ... older weaponary the last two may merge or swap.

Napoleonic or pirate seafaring seems to have the velocity of sound at over 10000m/sec or even variable speeds of sound. In the opening scene of "Master and Commander - the far side of the world" the velocity of sound is around 500m /second but a few seconds later its a round 2000m/sec and later still for a night scene it accelerates wildly to be near the speed of light. And this is a film praised for it authenticity :cool:

aboard_epsilon
01-07-2009, 11:56 AM
Take a look/hear at a scene with any gunfire coming in from over 50m ...
In post production they often sync up the flash with the sound - but life isnt like that at all...

Sound does about 300m (331.3 in air at 0C) per second. So you will get a decernable lag (been to an arena pop concert with the big screens?) over 50m (1/6 second). With modern weaponry they should go flash, phht(optional splat), bang ... older weaponary the last two may merge or swap.

Napoleonic or pirate seafaring seems to have the velocity of sound at over 10000m/sec or even variable speeds of sound. In the opening scene of "Master and Commander - the far side of the world" the velocity of sound is around 500m /second but a few seconds later its a round 2000m/sec and later still for a night scene it accelerates wildly to be near the speed of light. And this is a film praised for it authenticity :cool:

only since, Saving Private Ryan, have they got the gunshots right .everyones copied that since .

all the best.markj

lazlo
01-07-2009, 12:05 PM
The Han Research facility that pioneered that ammo for the caseless round. It was a multi-level research platform. It would randomly blow all the sheeting off the outside of the building.. the solution? Install Rubber strips like in a grocery store's backroom door..

When I first saw the size of the round, ~4.5 mm (.177 caliber !), the first thing that came to mind is: how many times do you have to shoot the poor guy? :)

H&K got asked that question a lot, and their response was that they had a three-round burst at 2,000 RPM, and they claimed that the cyclic rate was so fast, and the recoil so low, that they could put all three rounds in the same hole.

As far as I know, the G11 never took off, even with the German army, so apparently there were some problems with that argument. Has there been any successful caseless ammo ever fielded?

By the way, besides the other gun-related movie magic (sparking bullets, caseless ammo, shooting an engine block, ... ) how about the infinite ammo syndrome, especially on revolvers?

The only movie character I can ever remember reloading was Dirty Harry, and he did it with such style :)

Liger Zero
01-07-2009, 12:11 PM
Airwolf, somehow they managed to carry ammo for two twin machine-guns and two chainguns PLUS an assortment of missiles in a converted Bell 222.

derekm
01-07-2009, 12:38 PM
only since, Saving Private Ryan, have they got the gunshots right .everyones copied that since .

all the best.markj
No Private Ryan is guilty as well.
Private Ryan has funny speed of sound as well all over it.
Take the explosion of the bunker 100M+ and speed of sound over way over 1000m/s. In the sniper scene range of over 500m and the delay is less than 1/3 second ...
In the scene were the coward looks through a scope at a grenade being thrown at a range of at least 500m the sound is instanteous with the flash....

Derek