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Seastar
01-07-2009, 11:18 AM
I read on a blog that Sieg is coming out with an X4 mill.
Has anyone heard the details???
Bill

tmarks11
01-07-2009, 07:36 PM
I am guessng you are talking about the LMS blog:

http://littlemachineshop.blogspot.com/

Looks like it is about the size of an RF45 or bigger... not exactly what I imagined the next size up would look like in their product line.

Hijacking your thread: I notice that SiegInd website now has a link on it to Harbor Freight, so I guess that retail relationship is for real. Can't wait until I can take somebody's 5 year old photoshopped 20% off coupon to my local HF store to get a good deal...

wierdscience
01-07-2009, 08:21 PM
Judging by the scale I would say that base weighs in more than a whole RF45.

Must be 3x4'-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/PICT1097.jpg

Edit that,it's not a mill,it's a table top horizonal boring mill for J.Stevenson,prolly didn't even get me one while he was there:D

lazlo
01-07-2009, 08:29 PM
What Darin said -- that's a big damn casting for an X-series mill. Just a guess, but that looks like it might be something more like bed-mill -- a Tormach competitor perhaps?

wierdscience
01-07-2009, 08:33 PM
It's bigger than a Tormach base too.

Wonder if they are making an attempt on a VMC?

John Stevenson
01-07-2009, 08:54 PM
All I can say at this time is that some of their products are moving upmarket.
A lot of Chinese manufacturers are getting fed up of the cheap junk jibs when the actual fault lies at the western buyers doors.

They have identified that there is a limited market out there for quality goods. Tormach is a good example, Greg Jackson won't tolerate rubbish and the factory he deals with accepts that and don't ship him rubbish.

The result is he can sell all he imports and has a very good reputation both with users and the factory.

One thing no one has picked up on and I can mention it seeing as it's in the picture, note the ways at the rear of the picture ?
They are designed for linear rails.

.

Teenage_Machinist
01-07-2009, 09:35 PM
I suspect that it will be something to compete with square columns, or some thing. OR it could be a bench alternative to big mills.

wierdscience
01-07-2009, 09:57 PM
One thing no one has picked up on and I can mention it seeing as it's in the picture, note the ways at the rear of the picture ?
They are designed for linear rails.

.

You mean the ones with the four tapped holes?To me that looks like the column mounting pads.The others look like some for of box way.

lazlo
01-07-2009, 10:19 PM
You mean the ones with the four tapped holes?To me that looks like the column mounting pads.The others look like some for of box way.

That's what I meant by it looking like a bed mill. I think the two columns in the foreground are the column mounts, and the two longer rails in the back of the picture are linear guides for a bed saddle.

lazlo
01-07-2009, 10:23 PM
A lot of Chinese manufacturers are getting fed up of the cheap junk jibs when the actual fault lies at the western buyers doors.

They have identified that there is a limited market out there for quality goods. Tormach is a good example, Greg Jackson won't tolerate rubbish and the factory he deals with accepts that and don't ship him rubbish.

But the Tormach is in a very different price-point: $10,000 or so, with the stand and shipping.
I think that was Gene's brilliance -- identifying that there was a market for a better quality machine at a higher price point.

I think we all agree that the Chinese are capable of making good machinery. The problem is that no one, even the Chinese, can afford to make a Tormach at Harbor Freight prices.
But judging by Tormach's success, there's a substantial market of serious hobbyists willing to pay for higher quality machines.

I think Sieg is pricing the KX3 in the wrong segment: as several folks pointed in that thread, you're paying $5,000 for a CNC'd X3 -- the economics don't really add up.

BillH
01-07-2009, 10:58 PM
Not sure what it is but I want one.

dan s
01-07-2009, 11:11 PM
Hopefully, they don't stop making all the small stuff. I think they should just drop the really small stuff (C0-C3, X1, X2), and bump up the quality & price on the larger stuff (X3, & C6).


John,

The next time you talk with them, can you please tell them to doe something about their website? The stupid thing doesn't even load properly.

BillH
01-07-2009, 11:38 PM
Hopefully, they don't stop making all the small stuff. I think they should just drop the really small stuff (C0-C3, X1, X2), and bump up the quality & price on the larger stuff (X3, & C6).


John,

The next time you talk with them, can you please tell them to doe something about their website? The stupid thing doesn't even load properly.
I just went to their site, worked fine. Their White and Blue line, they are making 12x36 sized lathes.

Teenage_Machinist
01-07-2009, 11:43 PM
Frankly I think they should keep the mini lathe and mini mill.


There is a lack of such sizes...

Sherline has the minaturist's lathe down but nothing for people who want to do fullsize work, 3/4 bar thru spindle bore, ect. but still tiny size.


What's a bed mill?

BillH
01-07-2009, 11:49 PM
Frankly I think they should keep the mini lathe and mini mill.


There is a lack of such sizes...

Sherline has the minaturist's lathe down but nothing for people who want to do fullsize work, 3/4 bar thru spindle bore, ect. but still tiny size.


What's a bed mill?
I think the 8x14 Lathes fit the bill just fine for small size but good rigidity. The mini lathes have a flawed design. Their beds and cross slides should be wider, and more massive...

sansbury
01-08-2009, 12:51 AM
Hopefully, they don't stop making all the small stuff. I think they should just drop the really small stuff (C0-C3, X1, X2), and bump up the quality & price on the larger stuff (X3, & C6).

Why? They fill a very popular niche between the micro tools like a Sherline and the inexpensive mill-drills that are a little too much machine for a lot of hobbyists like me.

wierdscience
01-08-2009, 12:57 AM
Frankly I think they should keep the mini lathe and mini mill.


There is a lack of such sizes...

Sherline has the minaturist's lathe down but nothing for people who want to do fullsize work, 3/4 bar thru spindle bore, ect. but still tiny size.


What's a bed mill?

Agreed,years back when I went looking for a hobby mill the only affordable choices made here were the Sherline and Taig machines.Both are good machines,but a little too small for what I wanted and the Sherline uses a lot of proprietary tooling,short tapers etc.

I settled on an X2 mill with an R-8 taper.I had to spend some time filing and fitting things along with replacing the gears with belts but for the money they're hard to beat.

I would like to see them build a mill and lathe in that size,but with linear ways and ball screws setup for CNC.Do away with the R-8/MT and just give us a ER spindle.Give the option of a blank machine with no motors or controls,also do away with the DC drives,3~ motors and small VFDs are too cheap now.


Bedmill?Think dovetail column mill drill,but much bigger.Basically the table stays at a fixed height and the quill/motor/drive move up and down.

dan s
01-08-2009, 02:41 AM
I just went to their site, worked fine. I just went back an it loaded fine, but when I tried earlier, the page partially loaded and then timed out (I had tried several times).


Why? They fill a very popular niche between the micro tools like a Sherline and the inexpensive mill-drills that are a little too much machine for a lot of hobbyists like me. In my opinion the C0 through C3 lathes are not worth the cost or effort, they're just not big enough.

The C4, C6 & Lathemaster/HF 8x14 are what I would consider the smallest reasonable machine for a hobbyist. I personally have a HF 8x14 and it's a better machine than both the 7x12 & 9x20 (except for capacity). check this link out for some comparisons:
http://www.annisquamgranite.com/lathecomparo.htm

The same thing goes for the mills in my opinion. The X3 is as small as I would go, it's small enough to be handled by one person, but big enough to do some more serious work.

John Stevenson
01-08-2009, 04:17 AM
In my opinion the C0 through C3 lathes are not worth the cost or effort, they're just not big enough.

The C4, C6 & Lathemaster/HF 8x14 are what I would consider the smallest reasonable machine for a hobbyist.

The same thing goes for the mills in my opinion. The X3 is as small as I would go, it's small enough to be handled by one person, but big enough to do some more serious work.
That's a very one sided way of looking at things and only from your perspective.

Not everyone lives in a country of wide open spaces and plenty of room.
This is why the Myford lathe gained such a cult status here in the UK over to Boxford / South Bend clone was because it was manageable and it's size.

Even for some it was too big that's why they brought the ML10 out.

That little C0 outsells anything in Japan, space is so restricted there that most people live in 2 roomed apartments and any hobby gear has to be packed away into cupboards.

Why do you need a C6 if you hobby is 00 gauge railways or clocks ?

.

dan s
01-08-2009, 04:30 AM
That's a very one sided way of looking at things and only from your perspective.


Yes, and that's why I started my response with "In my opinion".

oldtiffie
01-08-2009, 04:36 AM
Right on John.

It is very relevant to a demographic that is sneaking up on - or which has already snuck up on some here. That is the "older age" category where handling larger machines personally is hard enough but it will be tougher with a lot less space in a Retirement Home or Village etc. where space will be at a premium.

Same applies to anyone with a physical disability - including arthritis etc.

So some may well be contemplating getting those "small" machines in place of those "big(ger)" machines you have now and will/may have to dispose of.

dan s
01-08-2009, 05:26 AM
It is very relevant to a demographic that is sneaking up on - or which has already snuck up on some here. That is the "older age" category where handling larger machines personally is hard enough but it will be tougher with a lot less space in a Retirement Home or Village etc. where space will be at a premium.
Just for some perspective an 8x14 is 250lbs fully assembled, an an X3 about 380. You could fit them both on a 6ft work bench. So yes they are bigger and heavier but not by a lot.

Take a look at this thread on a different forum about the X2.
http://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/index.php?topic=3809.0

Take note of how several have said you can make an X2 work, but how much happier they are since they upgraded to an X3, because it can take heavier cuts, and has better fit and finish.

oldtiffie
01-08-2009, 05:54 AM
Thanks Dan - very relevant and much appreciated.

It raised my eye-brows when I saw you quote the X3 as about 380# as I though it was a bit lighter - but not so - you are more right than I am as the X3 is 190Kg (~420#!!!) but I agree with you as I had no problem lifting it as I have a 1 ton floor crane and good access to the bench.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M153

I got another surprise when the "Super X3" was the same weight:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M155

As you say they have a lot going for them.

I bought mine to be retro-fitted with CNC - another item on the "to do list" - in the fullness of time.

Its a matter of people knowing what they need as opposed to what they want and to size things accordingly.

The "foot-print" on my X3 is surprisingly small for the "real estate" it has.

I got my X3 as it was recommended by the guy who does the CNC kit I am after. I had a look at it pretty well as I had a free-hand at my Suppliers premises and I have a bigger HF-45 as well as a "3-in-1" (with a quite handy mill/drill on it) so it wasn't as if I was starting from "scratch". I had my age (72) in mind too as I've bought them all in the last few years.

Dawai
01-08-2009, 11:56 AM
OTHER thing is learning..

I am 52.. It took me years to afford a home shop large enough for a bridgeport. Living in rental houses moving from place to place. Something you can close a box up around as a Unimat or small lathe would have filled a niche for me making small robotic parts.

OKAY? each trip to a local machine shop cost me over $600.. how much does a lil lathe cost? Cost expended versus cost returned.. a small lathe or mill has it's place.

AND.. I watched a sherline video where they were making cuts with a small sherline lathe I would not do on my 1951 14" regal leblond. A big fat curl.

sansbury
01-08-2009, 12:35 PM
I have the C2 and X2 now, formerly an X1, which I managed to sell in about 5 days for 80% of what I paid for it a year ago. If I didn't have more interesting things to do with the space and money, I would have kept it.

FWIW, these little machines come up for sale pretty rarely in my area (Boston) and go fast when they do. Same for Taig and Sherline. Given that they're so easy to sell at a good price one can only assume the vast majority of owners are happy enough that they want to keep them.

Capacity and quality are related to a degree but are mostly separate issues. When I got my 7x a year ago it was almost half the price of the 8x12. At list price, it's now only $100 less than the 8x. That reduces the argument for the 7x mostly to one of weight. I have to carry my machines down a ladder-like staircase into the basement, so it's not a small argument for me, though I have at times contemplated taking a Bridgeport apart and sliding the parts through a window :)

lazlo
01-08-2009, 12:48 PM
Capacity and quality are related to a degree but are mostly separate issues. When I got my 7x a year ago it was almost half the price of the 8x12. At list price, it's now only $100 less than the 8x. That reduces the argument for the 7x mostly to one of weight. I have to carry my machines down a ladder-like staircase into the basement,

That's the reason I keep my 7x10 -- I can take it off a shelf, put it on my workbench, turn a couple of bushings, and put it back. It's really a 7x8 though, so you can only use the tailstock if you're turning washers :) I really wish Harbor Freight would carry the 7x12, which is 4" longer, and still luggable.

The 8x14 and the Sieg C4 seem greatly improved over the 7x10 and 9x20 series machines, but they're expensive enough ($1500 plus shipping for the C4) that it puts you in the range of a good used machine.

David's also got a good point about the little X2's and C2's being a great learning vehicle -- when you crash a 7x10 the little soup-can motor just stops spinning, and nothing bad happens. A crash on a 12x36 is a lot more exciting :)

lazlo
01-08-2009, 01:09 PM
What's a bed mill?

There's no knee: a big saddle slides back and forth on bed ways and the head is on column ways. Most VMC's are bed mills:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/bedmill.jpg

Thomas Staubo
01-08-2009, 01:21 PM
It raised my eye-brows when I saw you quote the X3 as about 380# as I though it was a bit lighter - but not so - you are more right than I am as the X3 is 190Kg (~420#!!!) but I agree with you as I had no problem lifting it as I have a 1 ton floor crane and good access to the bench.
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M153

I got another surprise when the "Super X3" was the same weight:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M155


Read again in your link, and you see that the stated weight is packing weight.

When you remove the wooden box, and not forget the cosmolene!!!:p you get a weight of 165kg for the machine alone.

Sieg's data is here (http://www.siegind.com/Products/br-x3-lathe.htm)


.

dan s
01-08-2009, 04:33 PM
The 8x14 and the Sieg C4 seem greatly improved over the 7x10 and 9x20 series machines, but they're expensive enough ($1500 plus shipping for the C4) that it puts you in the range of a good used machine.


Yea, I'm betting Travers mark up is pretty high.

lazlo
01-08-2009, 06:39 PM
Yea, I'm betting Travers mark up is pretty high.

Yeah, John and I were talking about that. All it's going to take is a second US distributor for the C4, and the prices should come down to normal.

I think the C4 is a great little lathe -- in the same size/weight/power envelope as an X3, which is the perfect size for a benchtop mill, IMHO..

oldtiffie
01-08-2009, 06:39 PM
Read again in your link, and you see that the stated weight is packing weight.

When you remove the wooden box, and not forget the cosmolene!!!:p you get a weight of 165kg for the machine alone.

Sieg's data is here (http://www.siegind.com/Products/br-x3-lathe.htm)


.


Thanks Thomas.

Very good point which I missed and over-looked.

On the "plus" side, the packing was excellent - not a detail missed - wooden crate, well greased and preserved and adequate (very good) tools and accessories. All of these are a consideration if you are picking the mill up from your Dealer. But as you and the Seig site say, the "grossed-up" (as packed) mass is 198Kg (~435#) whereas the unpacked mass is 165 kg (~365#) which is still a fair weight to throw around. This becomes more of a problem in a small shop where lifting gear or space or access is a problem. It will be more a problem for those who are physically limited as well as those who have limited space or access problems. Some who may live in apartments may not have enclosed garages but open-space car-parks. Heating/cooling of the shop as well as power supply limitations can impact on the outcome as can power tool interference with electronic reception for neighbours.

Even for younger fitter people, having to "move house" for what-ever reason can be a problem - the more so if there are two cars and a "shop" that have to fit into limited space. Setting up a new shop can be anywhere between a total expensive PITA and a complete "no-no".

Local authority/Government Regulations/By-laws may limit or prevent you doing as you want or like even if you have the space, as may the power supply utility.

I, and many others of my age group are already "looking down the barrel". There are others who are but either don't know it or won't admit to it.

Those smaller shops and tools etc. are looking more likely by the day!!

That Seig X2 or X3 is also looking a whole lot better.

As it is mainly the "Boomers" who follow this HSM hobby, and that many later either have no interest in it, I'd suggest that "unloading" a lot of our "treasures" is not going to be a happy event as a lot of this "old" and "big" stuff will be hard to "shift" (move or sell) and so will generally largely depreciated where-as the Sieg's etc. will be priced at a premium.

Remember that a lathe, a drill and a grinder have to be fitted into the equation as well.

At 72 I reckon that I will be lucky if I am still able or want to work in my shop until I am 80 - so I have about 5>8 years - maybe more, maybe less - I just have to "wait and see" and see how it "pans out".

I am ready to "down-size" or get rid of the lot almost straight away if needs be. Selling it won't be a problem as it will either go to good homes (given away) or destroyed so that it is either scrap or going to land-fill. I have the tools to destroy it if needs be - all I need is adequate warning and time and then it will happen.

My shop has no monetary "value" to me in terms of "cost-recovery" as it was all "written off" as soon as I bought it.

Those decisions to get a 10 x 30 "3-in-1" as well as my Sieg X3 and a few others are looking better by the day.

John Stephenson's advice as to "how it is" in Japan may be nearer than many thing right here and not too far off either.

Spin Doctor
01-08-2009, 06:57 PM
Local authority/Government Regulations/By-laws may limit or prevent you doing as you want or like even if you have the space, as may the power supply utility.

A few years back in the US during a congressional debate on gun control (please I do want to go there I am only making a point) it was proposed that any the sale and ownership of any tool that could be used to illegally modify a weapon into an illegal staus (ie from semi to full auto) would be illelgal. When someone pointed out to the Congresscritter in question that he/she was proposing to outlaw hacksaws and files the idea was quietly dropped. But what is to say that at some future date your machine tools wouldn't have to be registered with the state, provincial or national governements. Face it if your neighbors in an urban area know you have metal working machinery you are thought of as "odd". But woodworking machinery is quite alright as it as seen as being something that at least semi normal people do.

sansbury
01-08-2009, 08:16 PM
But what is to say that at some future date your machine tools wouldn't have to be registered with the state, provincial or national governements. Face it if your neighbors in an urban area know you have metal working machinery you are thought of as "odd". But woodworking machinery is quite alright as it as seen as being something that at least semi normal people do.

This is why I'm a big believer in using the freedoms we do have. The more people who have big trucks, handguns, private airplanes, lathes, black powder cannons, whatever, the harder it is to restrict. Another good reason to keep on using cash. Boy would the IRS love to ban that stuff if they could...

lazlo
01-08-2009, 08:44 PM
Face it if your neighbors in an urban area know you have metal working machinery you are thought of as "odd". But woodworking machinery is quite alright as it as seen as being something that at least semi normal people do.

No kidding. I live in an upscale Yuppie neighborhood, and I have to keep my garage door down, lest anyone complain about industrial machinery in a residential area. There have been several high-profile cases where the homeowner's covenant was able to successfully ban metalworking machinery in a home on the basis that they were industrial machines, and that metalworking was not a legitimate hobby like woodworking.

By the way, machinists are weird. :D

oldtiffie
01-08-2009, 10:19 PM
Thanks lazlo.

What you say is pretty well the "future now" as regards "machining" etc. The more so if it had high power requirements - particularly if it causes "power" problems to the neighborhood or the grid.

A lot of the machines we talk about here ARE "Industrial" by any measure.

You are effectively "penned-up" in(to) your garage as will be many others. I take it to mean too that you can't park "Industrial" stuff or what others may regard as "junk" on the outside of your "shop" - perhaps even not in the "back-yard".

Many whose "hobby" has "advanced" to the "money-making"/"business" or "for profit" have had to move to an industrial area and rent a "factory" etc. for any one or more of quite a few "good" reasons. Many "Tradies" (Electricians, Plumbers, Builders, Painters etc.) have had that very thing happen.

You are "treading on thin ice" if you are in contravention of any Covenant, Regulation or Code etc. All that it requires is a "complaint". This can be "real" or "vindictive" if you or your kids up-set a neighbour or even make a wrong remark at a BBQ etc.

"Detracting from the Amenity and Peaceful Enjoyment of the Area/Neighborhood" etc. are powerful tools in the "right ("wrong"??) hands".

"Lowering Property Values" or "Lowering the Tone of the Area" are another "goodies".

"Established Use" is not always any protection as "bad precedent is not good practice or Good Law".

"Not knowing" is no defence either - and "Ignorance is Bliss" is sheer Bull-$hit!! Your "obligation" is to "know"!!

Claiming that it is/must be OK because "others" "do it" (and naming them!!) will hardly endear you to them either.

Adverse "Peer/local pressure" applied "effectively" is hard on anyone - wives, kids, Family - the lot - and can be very "shattering" (to you?) and very "effective" (for "them"!!!???).

So even staying as you are let alone doing what you want in the future may only be at the "Grace and Favour" of your neighbours.

Do you have a "Plan B"?

jkilroy
01-08-2009, 10:31 PM
"Jesus"

I "just about" had a seizure "trying" to read "that last" post.

A "real" nightmare for dyslectics "everywhere"! ;)

interiorpainter
01-09-2009, 01:24 PM
I saw a X4 on sale about 3 years ago. Looked a bit like a souped up X3 with a tapping head. I thought it was not as nice and logically looking as the X3.
The price was about 1900 euro and after sitting there for over a year it went for 1200 just after i got my dovetail:D

BillH
01-09-2009, 03:15 PM
Man, my new X3 is sitting in the garage in the crate right now and I am stuck at work waiting for my next flight! Arghhh

Thomas Staubo
01-09-2009, 03:55 PM
"Jesus"

I "just about" had a seizure "trying" to read "that last" post.

A "real" nightmare for dyslectics "everywhere"! ;)


I second that!
I have noticed your excessive use of "quotation marks" before, but your post there was extreme.

Here is a "wikipedia article" for you to read and learn, "good ol'Tiffie" :D :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark


.

John Stevenson
01-09-2009, 04:01 PM
Cut Tiffie some slack.

He managed to post 341 words in joined up writing without one Tiffipedia link.......................

.

Thomas Staubo
01-09-2009, 04:50 PM
He managed to post 341 words in joined up writing without one Tiffipedia link.......................
.

That's a respectable feat!;)


No hard feelings here, Tiffie (BTW, do you have a real name?), just teasing a bit.

But I do understand that especially when writing a long post, it is useful (sometimes necessary) to highlight or put stress on certain words. Otherwise, important information could easily be lost.

A better way of doing that is to use bold or maybe underline text on those words. Color can also be used in certain cases.
Quotation marks are really mostly for quotations (duh) and some other uses that's explained in the link I gave you.


.

Teenage_Machinist
01-10-2009, 03:05 PM
"Bed Mill"


So all mini-machines are bed mills>?

Why no knee?

And what exactly is a VMC different from a CNC vertical mill?

doctor demo
01-10-2009, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=tmarks11 Can't wait until I can take somebody's 5 year old photoshopped 20% off coupon to my local HF store to get a good deal...[/QUOTE]
You don't have to go to all that trouble.....You can get a photoshopped 20% cupon right from the Harbor Freight website. I have done it on more than one occasion (when a friend )needed some thing. I never shop there:D .

Steve

tmarks11
01-11-2009, 06:18 PM
by and large it dosn't seem like HF cares if coupons are for real or not, and (from many people's experiencesit seems like the managers or clerks have the authority to randomly slash prices in the absence of any coupons.

That being said, I have never really seen anything in their stores that I want, although the KX1/KX3 may make me change my mind.

mochinist
01-11-2009, 07:37 PM
I have a similar machine made by Atrump with a centroid controller, it is a great machine as I can get bigger odd shaped stuff on it that would be hard to do with an enclosed cnc, it does make a mighty mess though :(
There's no knee: a big saddle slides back and forth on bed ways and the head is on column ways. Most VMC's are bed mills:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/bedmill.jpg

Teenage_Machinist
01-11-2009, 09:59 PM
i didnot realize before.

THAT IS A REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY big DRO!

lazlo
01-11-2009, 10:03 PM
THAT IS A REALLLLLLLLLLYYYYY big DRO!

That's an Anilam 3-axis CNC controller :)

Teenage_Machinist
01-11-2009, 10:38 PM
LOl i thought the controller just had a few buttons on it like E-stop ect



Anyway, what distinguishes a VMC from a bed mill, or a machining "center" from a CNC tool?