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View Full Version : Flame Wars, IMO On Topic



Spin Doctor
01-10-2009, 01:38 PM
There has been some flaming going of late. I think we all need a time out to cool down.

Liger Zero
01-10-2009, 01:48 PM
COOL DOWN?! DEATH FIRST!!11!!! :mad:


:DKidding aside this forum is rather laid back compared to some of the forums I go to. Not so much flaming as vigorous difference of opinions.

Want to see a "true" flame war? Visit a science-fiction or 3D modeling site. :eek:

Spin Doctor
01-10-2009, 01:55 PM
Been there, done that

kc5ezc
01-10-2009, 02:01 PM
Spin: You forgot to add, "and a stud horse fxxxxxg" This is offered in a spirit of completeness. At least, that is the way I heard it first. YMMV

dan s
01-10-2009, 02:05 PM
The interesting part, is that you can count them all on one hand.

Forums that I have read in the past that had a flaming problem usually had a much larger percentage of the members involved.

Liger Zero
01-10-2009, 02:22 PM
I don't know enough machining stuff to get involved in the "technical" flame-wars and no one listens to my political/societal rants. :D

speedsport
01-10-2009, 02:26 PM
The interesting part, is that you can count them all on one hand.

Forums that I have read in the past that had a flaming problem usually had a much larger percentage of the members involved.

You must have huge deformed hands

gnm109
01-10-2009, 02:28 PM
I haven't seen any instances of flaming. Most people just ignore my posts. LOL. :D

dan s
01-10-2009, 02:30 PM
You must have huge deformed hands

LOL, no my hands are normal

doctor demo
01-10-2009, 02:37 PM
I haven't seen any instances of flaming. Most people just ignore my posts. LOL. :D
What do You expect?,Your location is South Sac:D .
I'm in the BIG City of Citrus Heights :D and most of My stuff gets ignored.

Steve

dividedhead
01-10-2009, 03:02 PM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum.

I've just read the whole thread from some nut named Evan and his target John S... I've never read any of their other posts, don't know their respective skill levels and don't much care. I would never want their opinion on anything I ever build.... Nor any of the others that have replied in such ugly fashion.

Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... This one is damn awful. The moderators should feel ashamed.

all of these people should be ashamed of themselves.

Good bye.

mochinist
01-10-2009, 03:05 PM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum.

I've just read the whole thread from some nut named Evan and his target John S... I've never read any of their other posts, don't know their respective skill levels and don't much care. I would never want their opinion on anything I ever build.... Nor any of the others that have replied in such ugly fashion.

Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... This one is damn awful. The moderators should feel ashamed.

all of these people should be ashamed of themselves.

Good bye.Just leave if you're gonna leave, no one gives a sh1t either way.

doctor demo
01-10-2009, 03:08 PM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum.

I've just read the whole thread from some nut named Evan and his target John S... I've never read any of their other posts, don't know their respective skill levels and don't much care. I would never want their opinion on anything I ever build.... Nor any of the others that have replied in such ugly fashion.

Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... This one is damn awful. The moderators should feel ashamed.

all of these people should be ashamed of themselves.

Good bye.
That seem a little harsh , after all it is only one thread and on a whole I find this place inviting and fun.
I am sure You would not want to be judged on the merrits of only one post. But You are as free to leave as You were to join.
What ever You decide..... Have a nice day.

Steve

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2009, 03:10 PM
Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... .



And one should also make an effort to utilize the correct words in them when attempting to communicate with others :D

torker
01-10-2009, 03:35 PM
Ya...you buncha damm bullies...I might take my toys and...oh wait a minute.. I don't care...ya...that's it :D
Na..I can't leave..if I went someplace new...they prolly wouldn't believe I put my tree climbing spurs on with duct tape. Here...it's a given... :D
Russ

Mcgyver
01-10-2009, 04:52 PM
Just leave if you're gonna leave, no one gives a sh1t either way.

exactly, his was the most obnoxious post i recall seeing


oh and what thread? a flaming war? "nut named Evan and his target John S", .....well that hardly helps me narrow it down :D

jcarter
01-10-2009, 07:11 PM
Unfortunately we all lose when someone gets fed up and leaves. After all the whole idea of these forums is to share ideas and information. So I do give a **** when someone leaves. Dividedhead, please stick around, there is a lot to be learned here and I am sure you will have a lot to contribute. Regardless of anyone's skill level we can all learn tips and tricks from one another.

.RC.
01-10-2009, 07:31 PM
Well when someone simply registers just so that they can tell us that they are leaving to me it screams

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/attention_whore3.jpg

A.K. Boomer
01-10-2009, 07:41 PM
Ringer thank you for that --- your wisdom -- your perspective --- its unsurpassed AND GOOD GOD!!! she's got an ass to die for,, very nice.:p :p :p

John Stevenson
01-10-2009, 07:48 PM
That would make a brilliant bike rack......

.

tattoomike68
01-10-2009, 07:52 PM
If you cant handle a little debate with some humor then Disney.com is the place for you.

Is IOWOLF around anymore? he could be harsh to folks but deep down a very nice guy.

For the most part this forum is full of puzzycats who want to sit on your lap and purr....

LOL

BobC
01-10-2009, 07:52 PM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum.

I've just read the whole thread from some nut named Evan and his target John S... I've never read any of their other posts, don't know their respective skill levels and don't much care.
Good bye.

You are obviously free to take your marbles and go home if you choose. However, if you would take the time to read some of the posts generated by Evan and John, you would realize that they are both major contributors to the forum and quite intelligent. I fully enjoy reading their stuff.

My 2 cents.
Bob

dan s
01-10-2009, 08:07 PM
Is IOWOLF around anymore? he could be harsh to folks but deep down a very nice guy. He got what he deserves IMO.


IMO John has had a bur up his posterior for the last month or so. If memory serves, he's taken more than one swipe at Even about his post count. who the He** cares how many posts he has, especially John who is approaching 7K himself. Maybe John has some kind of small post count inferiority complex or something. I mean he** he took a swipe at me (how I perceived it), because he didn't like my opinion in the X4 thread.

John Stevenson
01-10-2009, 08:18 PM
No Dan, your opinion was your own, as you said.
I was just pointing out that if it was a general valid opinion they would have no sales of the C0, C1, and the rest of the small ones.
The fact that they have sales proved there is a market for them.

Last time I was over at the Sieg factory I was told that Harbor Freight took 3,000 C3 lathes per shipment and that was a standing order. It may have changed recently with the world situation but up to this date that's still a lot of machines just for one supplier.

Paul Alciatore
01-10-2009, 08:22 PM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum.

I've just read the whole thread from some nut named Evan and his target John S... I've never read any of their other posts, don't know their respective skill levels and don't much care. I would never want their opinion on anything I ever build.... Nor any of the others that have replied in such ugly fashion.

Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... This one is damn awful. The moderators should feel ashamed.

all of these people should be ashamed of themselves.

Good bye.

I am not at all sure that this is an accurate judgement. I don't think that Webster's has a definition of "flamming", but to my mind it would involve some kind of personal attack and/or name calling. I have seen very few cases of that kind of behavior on this forum.

Yes, many people here have strong opinions about some subjects and they will present their cases quite strongly. Some may never admit they are wrong, even when they are. But this is not necessairly a bad thing. First, perhaps they are not wrong. But even if they are, so what. They are presenting their opinions, their ideas. After all, this is a free country - er, well that was a bit un PC of me, wasn't it. But I would say that most, if not all, of the countries represented here are free and we all have the right to exercise our free speech. Especially here in this wonderful forum.

I have disagreeded with some of the members here in the past and have not hesitated to say so. And they have defended their positions, also without hesitation. So what. People disagree. You mention Evan by name. I have disagreed with him more than once. He will fight relentlessly for his opinion. Sometimes I think he is just doing it for the fun of it. And I jab him back, perhaps more than I should. Again, so what. More than once Evan has helped me by sending some small item I needed. He has always refused to be conpensated, even for the postage involved. He is not mean spirited. Quite the contary, in my opinion, he is a decent person who tries to help others and I would be proud to call him a friend. As far as his advise on machining issues, I would judge it to be top flight. His skill has been demonstrated many times over.

By John S. I can only assume he means John Stevenson, a long time member. I have less personal experience with him but I have not seen him engage in any behavior which I would consider offensive. All in all, he also seems to be a good person.

Perhaps I am more tolerant, but I have seen very little on this board that I would consider offensive. And when things have gotten too hot, someone (a moderator usually) has put a stop to it.

Contrary to the statement above, I would say that the sponsors and moderators of this site should be proud of the site and the way it is managed. It has a good mix of On and Off topic discussion and the advise I have gotten here has been very valuable. Frankly, it is my favorite internet board.

rohart
01-10-2009, 10:05 PM
This is like it ought to be.

A thread that thinks it on topic, about flame wars that everybody says don't exist, so it can't really be on topic after all.

Then some gatecrashing self announced newbie comes in, utters a load of BS, like he wouldn't take advice from people even though he doesn't know what their skill levels are. Then he clears off, and everybody starts flaming him.

Now, that's what I call on topic !

dp
01-10-2009, 10:35 PM
It's a shame dividedhead has been driven away - he has much to contribute: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dividedhead&search_type=&aq=f

dan s
01-10-2009, 11:01 PM
It's a shame dividedhead has been driven away - he has much to contribute: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dividedhead&search_type=&aq=f
If dividedhead, made those video's then that makes him Steve Bedair (http://www.bedair.org/9x20camlock/9x20project.html).

dp
01-10-2009, 11:22 PM
If dividedhead, made those video's then that makes him Steve Bedair (http://www.bedair.org/9x20camlock/9x20project.html).

That makes no sense. On Steve's ball turner page he thanks Dividedhead for the video he made using the turner he made from Steve's design. http://www.bedair.org/Ball/ball.html

dan s
01-10-2009, 11:44 PM
That makes no sense. On Steve's ball turner page he thanks Dividedhead for the video he made using the turner he made from Steve's design. http://www.bedair.org/Ball/ball.html
opps, missed that ......

tattoomike68
01-10-2009, 11:50 PM
He got what he deserves IMO.


IMO John has had a bur up his posterior for the last month or so. If memory serves, he's taken more than one swipe at Even about his post count. who the He** cares how many posts he has, especially John who is approaching 7K himself. Maybe John has some kind of small post count inferiority complex or something. I mean he** he took a swipe at me (how I perceived it), because he didn't like my opinion in the X4 thread.

this is how I see this site. two old ladys fighting.

http://www.youtube.com/v/od5fiNUweXU

torker
01-11-2009, 12:01 AM
Mikey...that is freakin hilarious... :D

tattoomike68
01-11-2009, 12:07 AM
Mikey...that is freakin hilarious... :D

thats what we need is more laughs.

gnm109
01-11-2009, 12:29 AM
What do You expect?,Your location is South Sac:D .
I'm in the BIG City of Citrus Heights :D and most of My stuff gets ignored.

Steve


So that's it. Durn. We should get together some time and talk so we could ignore each other. LOL.

:)

Circlip
01-11-2009, 05:17 AM
In his defense, I've both met and also converse with Divided He ad and the fact that one could only describe him as a gentle man (note the space) is an understatement. We all know of the different "Types" of forum on t'internet, from the mainly sichophantic to the all out flamers, you pays your money and makes your choice, but don't try to form an opinion or try to catergorise someone on the strength of one post.

Regards Ian

Is this a highjack????

BillH
01-11-2009, 07:19 AM
I enjoy a good flame war as anyone else does, however a forum like this one, there runs a great danger of causing harm. I've been here long enough to see quite a few members who contributed a lot, get chased away due to flame wars. Some of these guys were real charecters and brought it upon themsevles, but regardless without their contributions, this forum has been hurt. Both Evan and John contribute a lot to this forum and I would hate to see either one go some where else.
We all know just how much work goes into a project and it is only natural that you want to show others the results of your hard work. It is tough for many people to see their hard work get ignored or under appreciated, or sidelined by some irrelevent kindergarten bullcrap.
Anyone else miss posts by Adrian, Iowolf, Jerry , and a few others?

And Mikey, you put it best!

Your Old Dog
01-11-2009, 07:32 AM
This is the first and to be quite honest last post I will put onto this forum. ......................... I would never want their opinion on anything I ever build.....

Dividedhead, your presence won't be missed if you come on here with a comment like that without knowing why the rest of us commented. These two guys know their $h1t and could work in any shop or field of endeavor they choose. We don't want either of them to get discouraged and tune us (the forum) out.


Forums should me somewhat inviting and fun.... This one is damn awful. The moderators should feel ashamed.





This one is. Had you read more then the post you cite you would have known that..........[/quote]



In his defense, I've both met and also converse with Divided He ad and the fact that one could only describe him as a gentle man (note the space) is an understatement. .................., but don't try to form an opinion or try to catergorise someone on the strength of one post.

Regards Ian

Is this a highjack????

That's exactly what he did?

Circlip
01-11-2009, 08:02 AM
Always ends up as who can pee highest/farthest or whose gang on which side of the schoolyard you are.

Regards Ian :D

Your Old Dog
01-11-2009, 08:54 AM
Always ends up as who can pee highest/farthest or whose gang on which side of the schoolyard you are.

Regards Ian :D

Who was the famous English Lord who once quoted John Wayne as saying "Lifes to short for this sh1t!" :D :D

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 08:56 AM
Who was the famous English Lord who once quoted John Wayne as saying "Lifes to short for this sh1t!" :D :D

Don't try to blame THAT on me :D

Deja Vu
01-11-2009, 09:31 AM
Heh! This thread and more than a few others are simply at this time great Sunday morning "entertainment! :cool:

....opinions occasionally expressed are not always solely my own...

call me tolerant John (Bloy)

David Powell
01-11-2009, 10:04 AM
Having two fellows who are obviously, in their own minds, more able, more knowledgeable, and faster than anyone else they have ever met, arguing at full volume furiously about the job I have already got half done while standing about 5 feet behind me. I was taught, sometimes the hard way, that If you cannot make a suggestion pleasantly , and be prepared for the receiver to perhaps ignore or deride it, or defend his or her reasons for their scheme then shut up and just get on with your own work! Anyone who annoys me in my home shop does not get invited back, its as simple as that. Regards David Powell.

lazlo
01-11-2009, 12:08 PM
In his defense, I've both met and also converse with Divided He ad and the fact that one could only describe him as a gentle man (note the space) is an understatement. .................., but don't try to form an opinion or try to catergorise someone on the strength of one post.

That's exactly what he did?

Had you read more then the post you cite you would have known that.........

YOD, you can't possible believe that Evan's thread claiming that John went looking for someone to upstage him was an isolated incident??!

From my experiences in real life (you know, off this board? :rolleyes: ), most Home Shop machinists read PracticalMachinist, HSM Forum, and CNCZone on a regular basis, and the vast majority of them don't post here because of childish temper tantrums like that.

Alan Jackary, the guy who built the Stepperhead lathe that triggered Evan's meltdown, is a perfect example: joined in 2006, almost never posted, and when he does he's accused by Evan of being a shill, hired to "upstage him." God Forbid someone else gets attention on Evan's Forum...

I, for one, value the modest, no bullsh!t content from Rich Carlstadt, Lane, Alan (Stepperhead), Steve (S_J_H), Bill Pace, and many others a great deal more than otherwise good projects that are slathered in self aggrandizing claims and exaggerations..

What saddens me is that Lane, for example, will post his exquisite tool and cutter grinder workhead, but the thread quietly disappears with few responses because Evan's entourage posts a dozen pages of "oohs" and "ahhs" in loving adoration of Evan's ability to hit 2 micron accuracy on a 50 year old South Bend 9 with a shimmed live center.

BobWarfield
01-11-2009, 12:20 PM
Having two fellows who are obviously, in their own minds, more able, more knowledgeable, and faster than anyone else they have ever met, arguing at full volume furiously about the job I have already got half done while standing about 5 feet behind me. I was taught, sometimes the hard way, that If you cannot make a suggestion pleasantly , and be prepared for the receiver to perhaps ignore or deride it, or defend his or her reasons for their scheme then shut up and just get on with your own work! Anyone who annoys me in my home shop does not get invited back, its as simple as that. Regards David Powell.

Amen, brother, amen.

And Lazlo, you're at the center of many of these disaster threads too. There certainly isn't just the one where Evan snapped.

You guys are running all the value out of this board with this BS. That's fine, it's what you seem to like for the most part and there are plenty of other boards for people to go to where it isn't tolerated.

Enjoy it,

BW

lazlo
01-11-2009, 12:27 PM
And Lazlo, you're at the center of many of these disaster threads too. There certainly isn't just the one where Evan snapped.

Bob, if you haven't noticed, there are two type of responses to Evan's threads: either adoration, or "this is the lathe I built" / "there's another bearing you might consider using." If the reply isn't in the adoration class, it turns into a flame war.

So not surprisingly, most of the frequent posters here, myself, JTiers, Doc, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, .... participate in many of the "disaster threads".

J Tiers
01-11-2009, 12:50 PM
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER.

That will take care of the problem very quickly and effectively.

But, it's all or nothing, no playing favorites, we ALL get ejected, or we all stay.

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 12:57 PM
attention on Evan's Forum...

What saddens me is that Lane, for example, will post his exquisite tool and cutter grinder workhead, but the thread quietly disappears with few responses because Evan's entourage posts a dozen pages of "oohs" and "ahhs" in loving adoration of Evan's ability to hit 2 micron accuracy on a 50 year old South Bend 9 with a shimmed live center.

Alan's post will probably follow this into obscurity.

I think he needs to do a better text with things like precision, some exotic materials like wood and UPVCHPM [ plastic in the real world ]
Prime number mass calculation and not to forget the screw pinched off a trailer park sat dish.

He still might be struggling though unless he has a 1939 flat belt south bend, the later underdrive Boxfords never really cut it.

.

dp
01-11-2009, 01:00 PM
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER.

That will take care of the problem very quickly and effectively.

But, it's all or nothing, no playing favorites, we ALL get ejected, or we all stay.
I presume this draconian step is required because exercising basic good manners is not a possibility.

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 01:19 PM
I presume this draconian step is required because exercising basic good manors is not a possibility.

Probably
However and after all this the post that started it was the one called

"Intentional thread sabotage by John Stevenson and company"

but after 83 post in that thread Evan has not managed to show one scrat of evidence to support that claim.

His accusation that I know and was in collusion with Allan was proven unfounded as I wasn't at Ascot where the machine was and up to that point I had made one post in support of J T Tiers and Nheng

Alan did post an apology to Evan for posting in his thread instead of starting a new thread but that was ignored so yes manners probably don't come into it where Evan is concerned.

Fortunately the forum as a collective have their own views.
.

Peter N
01-11-2009, 02:34 PM
Dammit! I don't come on here for a couple of weeks and I miss all the fun :mad: :mad:
And now the other thread has been locked so I can't post a comment either.

Probably just as well though:D

Peter

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 03:43 PM
I've purposely stayed out of the frays of the past couple of weeks. It is part of my usual New Years Resolution to ignore Evan's foolishness. It usually lasts for a couple of months before I succumb and get drawn into some discussion.

Since my name has come up with the suggestion of permanent banning, I felt the need to at least make an appearance. At least the posters have spelled it correctly this time.

It would seem that the mentioned list are among those who are involved with discussions with Evan on various subjects, and seem to be the ones being blamed for creating the resulting discord. However, as often as not, one or more of us are among the missing, as in the most recent case. The one common denominator is Evan his own self. If he were able to accept the fact that he is not the ultimate authority on everything in the known and unknown world, most of the noise would go away.

There is nothing really wrong with saying; "Yes, that's a good point, but I thought I would do (fill in the blank) because........ Thanks for your suggestion."

The success of any forum depends on the open exchange of ideas, not one person dominating with his way or the highway. Evan has on more than one occasion driven away a new member simply because he did not agree with him or he didn't pass Evan's criteria. I have little doubt many others are intimidated from contributing because thay do not feel they can measure up to Evan's overhyped statements of accuracy and precision.

If basic good manners means rolling over in fawning adulation of a post that is wrong, I will ban myself voluntarily and leave it to the rest of you.

Rich Carlstedt
01-11-2009, 06:25 PM
Jim hit the nail on the head.
Its the exchange of ideas that counts.
We all are not going to see eye to eye, --heck we can't even do that with our wives, let alone someone we never met, who has equipment we never ran, and who has a different agenda.
I for one hope that Sir John never stops posting, he keeps me in hysterics.
I have had differences with Lazlo and others at times, and at other times, could not agree more with them. Either way I consider them as friends
I dont want to reveiw some now , because we might get squeshy eyed, but some valuable data does wind up being posted.

I ran a machining operation and one day, it went over the top.
When I told my boss (owner) that Engineers did not follow the rules of good machining practice ( like 17 holes on a flange), he asked me
"How do you get change, if there is not a difference of opinion ?"
I couldn't answer him--still can't

You know John just made a statement that I will reprint here
"He still might be struggling though unless he has a 1939 flat belt south bend, the later underdrive Boxfords never really cut it. "

When I read this, I busted out laughing, for I have a 1965 Boxford (AUD) underdrive.....did I get mad..no, its funny, because he was making a point.
Too often , the "point' is overlooked, and the gaunlet is laid down over verbage. so lighten up guys...we are fine
What is not necessary is calling someone a dumbxss, or stupid, or worse
To me that is flaming, but not disagreeing with someone !

The old Adage---an open mouth gathers no intelligence ---is forgotten too often

If we are to improve our skills, we need to change something----or die
Rich

isaac338
01-11-2009, 06:30 PM
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER.

That will take care of the problem very quickly and effectively.

But, it's all or nothing, no playing favorites, we ALL get ejected, or we all stay.

Better solution: everyone shut the hell up. Read your post before you click "submit reply" - if it doesn't directly pertain to machining operations then don't post it. Simple!

mochinist
01-11-2009, 06:34 PM
Better solution: everyone shut the hell up. Read your post before you click "submit reply" - if it doesn't directly pertain to machining operations then don't post it. Simple!You just broke your rule.

wierdscience
01-11-2009, 06:46 PM
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER.

That will take care of the problem very quickly and effectively.

But, it's all or nothing, no playing favorites, we ALL get ejected, or we all stay.

I feel so left out sniff,sniiff...........bwahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

platypus2020
01-11-2009, 07:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J Tiers
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER.

That will take care of the problem very quickly and effectively.

But, it's all or nothing, no playing favorites, we ALL get ejected, or we all stay.



I feel so left out sniff,sniiff...........bwahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!




Maybe not!!

lunkenheimer
01-11-2009, 07:38 PM
My take on most of the flame wars here (and I'm not referring only to the most recent one) is that they are caused by one of these:

1. Someone questions a decision made by someone else and it comes across as a challenge to that decision instead of a suggestion of an alternative.

2. Someone throws an irrelevant political comment into an otherwise non-political thread

3. A third party jumps in and fans the flames where the above have occurred but not yet caused a spark.

4. Someone makes an ad hominem comment (attacking someone personally rather than debating their ideas/viewpoint)

Regarding the first occurrence, it helps very much to phrase your posts in such a way that it is VERY clear that you are proposing an alternative rather than saying the other idea won't work. If you intend to say the other idea won't work then suck it up if you are shown to be wrong.

Regarding the second occurrence, don't dump politics into a non-political thread. If you do, don't complain if you get some slung back.

Regarding the third occurrence, just sit down and shut up, and all will be well. If you do fan the flames, others will notice that you are often present at the scene of the fires and form their own opinions about your pyromania. In this case folks might use Gulliver's fire extinguisher on you...

Regarding the fourth occurrence, there is no reason for any of us to put up with that crap. If you want to call someone names, do it privately; we don't need to hear it. Plus, you've already lost the debate if that's the best you can do.

lane
01-11-2009, 08:01 PM
YOD, you can't possible believe that Evan's thread claiming that John went looking for someone to upstage him was an isolated incident??!

From my experiences in real life (you know, off this board? :rolleyes: ), most Home Shop machinists read PracticalMachinist, HSM Forum, and CNCZone on a regular basis, and the vast majority of them don't post here because of childish temper tantrums like that.

Alan Jackary, the guy who built the Stepperhead lathe that triggered Evan's meltdown, is a perfect example: joined in 2006, almost never posted, and when he does he's accused by Evan of being a shill, hired to "upstage him." God Forbid someone else gets attention on Evan's Forum...

I, for one, value the modest, no bullsh!t content from Rich Carlstadt, Lane, Alan (Stepperhead), Steve (S_J_H), Bill Pace, and many others a great deal more than otherwise good projects that are slathered in self aggrandizing claims and exaggerations..

What saddens me is that Lane, for example, will post his exquisite tool and cutter grinder workhead, but the thread quietly disappears with few responses because Evan's entourage posts a dozen pages of "oohs" and "ahhs" in loving adoration of Evan's ability to hit 2 micron accuracy on a 50 year old South Bend 9 with a shimmed live center.

Just for you Lazlo.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=23338
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=23242
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=22925
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=22924

Enjoy

John Stevenson
01-11-2009, 08:09 PM
Just Beautiful

.,

ckelloug
01-11-2009, 09:17 PM
Since Lazlo mentioned me, I'll comment.

A common theme in those of us that have had arguments with Evan is that most of us have formal technical backgrounds. For those of us who are engineers, there is a duty in most if not all disciplines' codes of ethics to point out to clients that which isn't going to work or is wrong. While the relationship the engineering types here have with others certainly isn't a client relationship, I can say that several of the technical types here treat it as one to a certain extent and point out issues in things even when it isn't popular.

In the several arguments I've seen with Evan including the angular momentum thread, the arguments start with Evan giving us his opinion in an area as fact. When that is contradicted by actual fact, Evan has traditionally started arguing his position ignoring the actual points made by the other party. The other party has tended to get predictably annoyed.

In the case of the angular momentum thread, I spent several hours checking references and deriving equations for different cases where I could solve similar problems and realized through Fasttrack's post that I couldn't solve the this system with the techniques I know. I saw no evidence that Evan did any research or actual work to come to the correct answer, he merely repeated his original arguments. If he had presented a single reference that showed why Newton or Feynman had been wrong in the analysis I presented, his case could have been adjudicated on its merits.

I respect Evan for the wide number of projects he has completed and the good photographs he has taken of the projects. If he played only to his strengths, he would have all my respect. In engineering however, knowing when you are wrong is as important as knowing when you are right and therein lies what I see as Evan's greatest flaw.

I have seen no evidence that Evan sees the difference between his strengths and weaknesses and that is something I personally fault him for. Based on the things he has said about things I do know, I would hesitate to rely on information from him about things I do not know. I think most of us do not have a post count as high as Evan's simply because we don't try to argue cases we don't know much about.

It was
"In physical science the first essential step in the direction of learning any subject is to find principles of numerical reckoning and practicable methods for measuring some quality connected with it. I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind; it may be the beginning of knowledge, but you have scarcely in your thoughts advanced to the state of Science, whatever the matter may be."


When it comes to understanding why things work, I consider Evan's understandings of how things work including Newtonian Physics and Electromagnetism as phenomenological in nature and about as helpful as Lamarckian evolution when he says things like:

From the magnetism thread:


I would not trust the Wikipedia article that tiffie linked to as it contains a statement that demonstrates the person who wrote it isn't actually familiar with magnetism.

He writes "The magnetic inductive current represents lines of force. In particular, it represents lines of inverse square law force.


This is entirely incorrect. The magnetic lines of force produce a field that obey inverse cube law, not inverse square law. An electric field is dependent on the area of the source and so obeys inverse square law with distance. A magnetic field depends on the volume of the source and so diminishes as the inverse cube of distance.
(A direct violation of the Maxwell Equations.)

From the conservation of momentum thread:


It requires no work by the flywheel to let them out. They have their own share of angular momentum and would move out when released in the same manner if the flywheel were absent.
(A direct violation of the Work Energy Theorem)

Most arguments on the internet are adjudicated by the volume of traffic around a particular argument. Folks that make more noise are often believed above those with a correct answer. Evan and others get the last word here frequently because people get tired of arguing with them.

My suggestion to those who read here is that they follow the merits of arguments rather than rally around the posters. I am wrong sometimes. Evan is wrong sometimes. John Stevenson is wrong sometimes. Lazlo is wrong sometimes. We are all wrong sometimes and a place to discuss the topics at hand lets us all learn as long as people come with open minds.

If folks here can only stand being told they are right, there will soon be very little true discussion.

My advice on this matter is this: one should never rely solely on the comments, derivations, or results from any poster that fails to provide sufficient references (beyond self citation) so that others can duplicate his/her work.

With all this kept in mind, I am going to stop making a large effort to refute arguments that were bought in the tripe aisle. Folks are and were always welcome to believe whomever they want to believe with the consequences that it dictates. Whether I expose the flaws I see in certain arguments or not, there are some here that seem bound to believe the flawed arguments over the corrections anyway.

Regards all,

Cameron

speedsport
01-11-2009, 09:47 PM
Since Lazlo mentioned me, I'll comment.

A common theme in those of us that have had arguments with Evan is that most of us have formal technical backgrounds. For those of us who are engineers, there is a duty in most if not all disciplines' codes of ethics to point out to clients that which isn't going to work or is wrong. While the relationship the engineering types here have with others certainly isn't a client relationship, I can say that several of the technical types here treat it as one to a certain extent and point out issues in things even when it isn't popular.

In the several arguments I've seen with Evan including the angular momentum thread, the arguments start with Evan giving us his opinion in an area as fact. When that is contradicted by actual fact, Evan has traditionally started arguing his position ignoring the actual points made by the other party. The other party has tended to get predictably annoyed.

In the case of the angular momentum thread, I spent several hours checking references and deriving equations for different cases where I could solve similar problems and realized through Fasttrack's post that I couldn't solve the this system with the techniques I know. I saw no evidence that Evan did any research or actual work to come to the correct answer, he merely repeated his original arguments. If he had presented a single reference that showed why Newton or Feynman had been wrong in the analysis I presented, his case could have been adjudicated on its merits.

I respect Evan for the wide number of projects he has completed and the good photographs he has taken of the projects. If he played only to his strengths, he would have all my respect. In engineering however, knowing when you are wrong is as important as knowing when you are right and therein lies what I see as Evan's greatest flaw.

I have seen no evidence that Evan sees the difference between his strengths and weaknesses and that is something I personally fault him for. Based on the things he has said about things I do know, I would hesitate to rely on information from him about things I do not know. I think most of us do not have a post count as high as Evan's simply because we don't try to argue cases we don't know much about.

It was

When it comes to understanding why things work, I consider Evan's understandings of how things work including Newtonian Physics and Electromagnetism as phenomenological in nature and about as helpful as Lamarckian evolution when he says things like:

From the magnetism thread:
(A direct violation of the Maxwell Equations.)

From the conservation of momentum thread:
(A direct violation of the Work Energy Theorem)

Most arguments on the internet are adjudicated by the volume of traffic around a particular argument. Folks that make more noise are often believed above those with a correct answer. Evan and others get the last word here frequently because people get tired of arguing with them.

My suggestion to those who read here is that they follow the merits of arguments rather than rally around the posters. I am wrong sometimes. Evan is wrong sometimes. John Stevenson is wrong sometimes. Lazlo is wrong sometimes. We are all wrong sometimes and a place to discuss the topics at hand lets us all learn as long as people come with open minds.

If folks here can only stand being told they are right, there will soon be very little true discussion.

My advice on this matter is this: one should never rely solely on the comments, derivations, or results from any poster that fails to provide sufficient references (beyond self citation) so that others can duplicate his/her work.

With all this kept in mind, I am going to stop making a large effort to refute arguments that were bought in the tripe aisle. Folks are and were always welcome to believe whomever they want to believe with the consequences that it dictates. Whether I expose the flaws I see in certain arguments or not, there are some here that seem bound to believe the flawed arguments over the corrections anyway.

Regards all,

Cameron

Are you trying to say that evan is a fake, a compulsive liar, has zero self esteem, has no real actual skill that he can call his own, is socially retarded, has no real life outside his own lies, is below the poverty level, and is unable to admit any of it and tries his hardest to hide all of this? I think your absolutely correct.

dan s
01-11-2009, 10:07 PM
Are you trying to say that evan is a fake, a compulsive liar, has zero self esteem, has no real actual skill that he can call his own, is socially retarded, has no real life outside his own lies, is below the poverty level, and is unable to admit any of it and tries his hardest to hide all of this? I think your absolutely correct.

You know....

That's so fing far over the line, I hope George bans your butt.

sid pileski
01-11-2009, 10:18 PM
Man, between this thread and the lathe build part 2, this is more entertaining than watching an issue of County Line Choppers!
I'm glued to the tube to see what's going to happen next!

dp
01-11-2009, 10:19 PM
I love this tool:

http://TheVirtualBarAndGrill.com/machinery/speedsport.jpg

J Tiers
01-11-2009, 10:35 PM
Since my name has come up with the suggestion of permanent banning, I felt the need to at least make an appearance. At least the posters have spelled it correctly this time.



Now,... fair is fair, I submitted myself as well......

But I was not serious about the list...........I suppose that might not have been obvious..... It was just a list of the primary offenders among those who either run into Evan, or are otherwise so "utterly Neanderthal and obnoxious" as to actually consider that their own knowledge or strong and supported opinion on a subject which is being mangled with errors is worth mentioning, and then defending.

Most of us on the list are not known for allowing actual totally erroneous statements to pass un-mentioned....many, including myself, more-or-less for the reason ckelloug mentioned. And I suspect most of us do not agree with the "well that's YOUR opinion and it's just as valid as anyone else's" theory of factual argument......

No matter..... I doubt that any of us has been obnoxious enough to get a moderator reprimand...... I do know of forums where the "everyone's opinion is valid" theory is rigorously enforced....... and the most nutty stuff is accepted.

Also......Let me go on record here as NOT subscribing to Speedsport's comment. That falls in the area of "if you think it, you would be far better off to keep quiet about it" category.

I happen not to agree with it, either. I am happy to argue with Evan when it is justified, or to agree with him when THAT is justified. We may even get a bit short.... that does not indicate a dislike from my end, at least. I cannot offer any information as to his opinion..

isaac338
01-11-2009, 11:17 PM
You just broke your rule.

for the first and last time ;)

(also this time.)

JCHannum
01-11-2009, 11:22 PM
Jerry, I took no offense and understand your intentions.

I think Cameron summed things up very nicely. Thanks for putting it so well.

ckelloug
01-11-2009, 11:28 PM
In agreement with JTiers, I think, speedsport ,that your remark was grossly uncalled for and disgraceful.

There is no basis to say any of the things that you just said so the remark amounts to outright slander. Even if there was evidence, the remark certainly wasn't nice and doesn't seem like the kind of thing that most discourses here are about. Evan has done some interesting things that were well executed and has been genuinely helpful to many forum members on many topics. That kind of ad hominem attack is blatantly unfair and uncalled for and I won't stand for it even when I disagree with the person being so derided.

To be clear, I have no personal bone to pick with Evan, I am just occasionally irked by his presentation of opinion as fact and since we're discussing what some see as flame wars, I wanted to present the side I see.

Regards all,

Cameron

gmatov
01-11-2009, 11:36 PM
"
Originally Posted by J Tiers
There is only ONE solution.

Lazlo, myself, Doc, Evan, Sir John, JC Hannum, CKelloug, Gmatov, Tiffie, and some others MUST be IMMEDIATELY EJECTED AND BANNED FOREVER."

I don't know how many obnoxious posts I have made to find myself in such exemplary company.

I freely admit I am not an expert at machining. I ran VBMS for some years. My forte was in repairing machinery. But that's over 20 years ago.

I do consider myself to be up to date in the political arena.

I'm with danS as to his remark to Speedsport. Totally uncalled for.

I read everything here, some I agree with, some I disagree, only that which I think I have SOME knowledge about will elicit a response from me.

I am still learning, though pushing 50 years out of school. I hope none of you ever think you have learned all there is to know about your chosen field.

Everyone can learn something here, with the right response to their questions. To take a pig headed approach, this is the way it is and you can't change my opinion, is wrong.

Cheers,

George

speedsport
01-11-2009, 11:39 PM
I'm sorry, I must have misunderstood. I do that alot. Its completely my fault.

Dawai
01-12-2009, 12:50 AM
Notice how I am staying clear of this topic?

If character faults were judged, you guys would be the villagers at my door with torches and pitchforks akin to a Frankenstein movie. I had a female psychiatrist date me once I think as a study. She sure was purty. She enjoyed being choked during sex. Not just lightly either, she would scratch and slap till I snapped an hit her in the throat till she gurgled. (proper way to choke someone is to strike them with the ridgehand, open thumb, then when the esopagaus bounces, get your fingers around it and collapse it) She broke up with me on Christmas Day quite a few years back. Nice lady? She scared me to death. She liked to split lanes on the interstate at 100mph. People like that need help.. Surely she had no help for me. Most the other psych doctors I have met are crazier than I.

Everyone here has something to add to the hobo stew we all need to get through life with.

Ignore the bs.. get on with it. God bless you all, we got another day here on this planet, make the most of it.

I got a lovely dog, a lovely purple motorsickle, a nice shop in a tin building with no heat.. and a computer that catches viruses daily. Be happy, be nice to others..

JRouche
01-12-2009, 01:14 AM
Ok, Im a lil late to the party. Is this about threads again!!! You folks never get enought.. I thought we hashed and re-hashed this out.

The upper hemisphere uses RIGHT hand threads. The folks down under HAVE to use lefthand threads.

Come on man!!! I thought we worked this out when Thrud was chewin on some meatloaf and spat a chunk (accidentally of course, he loved that stuff) out onto his monitor in disgust. Right hand for the top side, left hand for the southern side..

Geeze!!! Everyone should know that by now :)

Come on, the rule, everyone, repeat. High and right, low and left.

Threads!!?? They can be confusing for sure :) JR

John Stevenson
01-12-2009, 05:01 AM
I liked Cameron's take on it very well, I thought it was unbiased and accurate.

We do all make mistakes, that's a given fact, admitting to them is also different.

I have kept out of the threads on momentum and magnetism as it's well beyond me and any expertise I may have.

I'm not even qualified to sort out good from bad by reading the threads although you do often get a good idea of who's right given the explanations and stances of the various parties.

What irks me over this lot is being accused of derailing Evans threads when in post 1 I talked about his bearing which after 83 odd posts turns out to be what I said, not a preloaded one and in post 2 offering an insight by means of a photo to a high rise lathe.

Lets face it these posts are meant to be informative to the rest of the readers, not a "Wow look at me, pat my back " post.

So from this we now know that a MODERN double row bearing because of the altered specs is no good for a spindle and in #2 some people have now seen what a high rise lathe is.

And that is derailing and Hi- jacking ?

Alan apologised for his transgression which was far later, he never got an reply.

I'm not holding my breath but if you read this thread and the #2 post it's not hard to work out what most people think of Evan, I don't have to put it in words.

.

Circlip
01-12-2009, 06:27 AM
Answer to Rustybolt and John's question on the lockup, might be strange coming from a Yorkshireman, but YES.

Regards Ian.