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dp
01-11-2009, 08:18 AM
This is interesting for its simplicity. Aeroelastic flutter - the same force that brought down Tacoma's "Galloping Gertie" bridge is used to generate electricity where turbines are impractical.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/industry/4224763.html

rockrat
01-11-2009, 10:13 AM
Interesting. Thanks for the link.

J Tiers
01-11-2009, 10:46 AM
It's an interesting application.

But I am puzzled by the "appropriate technology" referenced. That typically means technology which is capable of being utilized, i.e. manufactured and repaired, by the locals.

Importing high tech is pretty much handing out fish to the starving. Once it stops working for any reason, the locals don't have the knowledge to repair it, nor the materials, spares, etc. This isn't that high tech, at least by our lights, but a closer look may be surprising.

While the device is simple, the materials and means of using it are not as simple.

The frame is obviously no problem. The stretched membrane is probably available in some form or other. But the magnets are not common, the glue for them might be an issue*, and the LEDs or micropower radio required to make the device useful are not in any way locally available in much of the world, let alone repairable there.

It is possible that it is a solution for an entirely different problem, and that it won't be directly useful for 3rd world applications at all. At least not for the forseeable, until the things it is used with are also commonly available.

* the magnets might simply be stuck to each other, with the membrane between, obviously, but then they can slip. Probably will.

davidh
01-11-2009, 10:47 AM
how many of those little suckers would it take to boil up a cup of coffee ?

neat idea to try here in the frozen, windy northland on the shores of lake superior.

sorry, couldn't resist.:rolleyes:

tony ennis
01-11-2009, 11:35 AM
I assumed he had a proof-of-concept in his hand, not the real deal. I rather expected a real one to be 100' long. I also expect an L-bracket at each and to convert the up-and-down movement to a push-pull. Doesn't do you much good if wind gusts could make the magnet bottom out against the coils.

I think this invention has great promise. What would be nice is a series of low-power devices such as a water purifier, computer, lighting, etc.

Dragons_fire
01-11-2009, 11:42 AM
Time flies when its windy, and completely stops when its calm!!!! haha not a bad idea, but i cant see why the "generator" would need to be so small. i can understand people dont want a 200ft turbine sticking out of their roof, but even if it was maybe 3 times the size, it should power a lot more and still be managable by one person.

Carld
01-11-2009, 12:37 PM
I think it's a great idea. I remember a generator with a piston at each end of a shaft and a magnet at the center moving through a coil. As a piston approached TDC a trigger system would fire and send the piston the other way to fire the piston on the other side.

Why would the vibrating membrane have to be 100' or 50', why not a stack of them 10' long or some such length needed for harmonic vibration to drive the magnets.

J Tiers
01-11-2009, 12:39 PM
Why would the vibrating membrane have to be 100' or 50', why not a stack of them 10' long or some such length needed for harmonic vibration to drive the magnets.

The individual outputs would not be synchronized in phase, so they would not add up. Any attempt to synch a number of them is probably doomed to failure in a practical sense.

rotate
01-11-2009, 01:05 PM
Did you see the amount of wind it required to light up couple of leds? Impoverished Haitians need this? I don't think so.

dp
01-11-2009, 01:33 PM
Did you see the amount of wind it required to light up couple of leds? Impoverished Haitians need this? I don't think so.

It is 10% efficient. A towering windmill is 90% efficient. Compare the cost of building a towering windmill vs. 10 of these things. If they are used only to charge batteries they will bring light to the night - these people can spend more of their time productively during the day knowing they will have light at night for retooling, infrastructure needs, social gatherings, and it will reduce the dependency on oil they can ill afford.

The only natural resources many island nations have is firewood (Easter Island, for example), tides, and wind. Large scale wind generators don't do well at these places for reasons of initial expense, maintenance, and vulnerability to climate.

tony ennis
01-11-2009, 02:58 PM
A 250' tall windmill surely costs hundreds of thousands. There are environmental studies, law suits, permits, the costs of hauling heavy crap to the middle of nowhere, huge footers to dig, the assembly itself, and then continuous maintenance costs which won't be cheap. It is hard to see how a windmill can ever recover its costs. But they do generate some power.

I don't know how many of these mylar thingies would be needed to power a common light bulb. But they would seem to be cheap. Mylar costs nothing. Two poles in the ground cost nothing. A few rare-earth magnets cost nothing. And some coils, also cheap. This is a very inexpensive thing here. I can see some industrious people making these out of scraps.

Another consideration is that perhaps these devices aren't suited for general purpose American-style power generation. Perhaps there are special applications where constant low-grade power is useful.

barts
01-11-2009, 02:59 PM
This is pretty clever.... I saw a large structure that was guyed w/ 2" wide ratcheting straps last year; those straps flapped like crazy in the slightest wind.

If you want to build a bigger one, I'd bet the magnets and coils in one of those cheap rattle-the-windows car woofers would work... they're pretty good at draining batteries, now they can start pulling their weight :-).

- Bart

Rustybolt
01-11-2009, 03:14 PM
Did you see the amount of wind it required to light up couple of leds? Impoverished Haitians need this? I don't think so.

In a third world situation it is enough to power a radio or a cell phone or a light at night. Maybe charge some batteries. The vast majority of people in the third world are not concerned with alarm clocks, personal computers or their morning latte. That's the stuff we worry about.

kendall
01-11-2009, 03:52 PM
Think it's a good idea.

The frame actually wouldn't be needed, all you need is a pair of anchor points. (I know everyone has had straps get noisy while hauling loads!)

A pole with several of them secured at the top, and individual anchors around the bottom could work nicely. Each anchor would only need to be a Y shape stuck in the ground.

Don't think there would be a problem stacking them either, so the energy density could be much greater without a huge increase in size as with a turbine.

Could conceivably carry the material to set up a dozen of them in a backpack.

Ken

Carld
01-11-2009, 06:45 PM
I don't see a problem with a stack of them. All indivually charging a battery pack. Each one is putting out a charge into the battery rack and with a straight DC output there would be no feed back putting out DC. It would come out as a solid DC charge reguardless of the phase of each generator.

Just forget AC, think DC because of the intermitent output because the wind is not constant. A system like he proposes is not for a grid type system but indivual home use in remote areas with a battery rack system.

J Tiers
01-11-2009, 10:19 PM
I agree that WE could easily do this.

Can the average "village denizen" deal with it?

Can they make more parts when birds, dogs, or whatever mess it up?

Now about the parts? Are they available if a magnet comes off and can't be found, or a coil gets messed up?

That's the point..... its a combo of low and high tech. WE think its cool and low tech, but WE are not typical of those folks, who have adapted to their environment, as we have to ours.

Theirs does not include really ANY technology of significance, especially electrical, in their everyday lives that they can maintain. But they can maintain their houses and animals and crops far better than many here could.

To them it is high tech...... mysterious, and non-fixable. maybe.

gmatov
01-12-2009, 02:33 AM
"J Tiers I agree that WE could easily do this."

Though a US citizen, natural born, I kind of resent that comment.

I have not even read the article linked to, but why in the hell could not others in other countries handle whatever obstructions they come up against?

How many here have problems with machines made here for the last 100 years. We don't have a good grasp of our own technology.

You deride less advanced people as to whether they can repair what you might call "infrastructure".

Our own infrastructure is so complex that when you have a problem you call them with expertise to solve your problem. Internet is acting up? Call India. Cable is out? Call India.

THEY could easily do that, too, given a bit of money and encouragement.

We are not God's Gift to anyone.

Cheers,

George

tony ennis
01-12-2009, 02:41 AM
JTiers has a point in that this technology is not for the most backward of the backward. However, most places have some idea about technology. Many poverty-crushed places in Africa, for example, have cars, junkyards, and so forth.

I'm pretty confident there is a type of can-do person in those places that could make repairs and improvements.

dp
01-12-2009, 03:05 AM
JTiers has a point in that this technology is not for the most backward of the backward. However, most places have some idea about technology. Many poverty-crushed places in Africa, for example, have cars, junkyards, and so forth.

I'm pretty confident there is a type of can-do person in those places that could make repairs and improvements.

The most backward of the backward need something. What ever it is is going to be beyond their understanding for part of one generation. The generation that never knew anything else will be ready for bigger things and so it goes. If you give people electricity - even just a little bit of it, and they can listen to a radio, their universe is expanded. Via radio, ideas and concepts travel at the speed of light. And there are no successful societies that do not own the night. That takes artificial light.

chief
01-12-2009, 04:40 AM
The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.
We send millions of dollars worth of food to Africa every year but the UN and the EU embargo African agricuitural products, removing any incentive for African farmers to improve their lot.

George,
I love how anyone who make a statement about the real world is suddendly a racist by your standards, how have all the qualities necssary to be one of Lennin's useful idiots.

aostling
01-12-2009, 05:30 AM
It is 10% efficient. A towering windmill is 90% efficient.


The efficiency of a propeller-type wind turbine cannot exceed the Betz Limit, which is 16/27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz_limit.

Perhaps you meant 90% of the Betz Limit, which equates to 53% efficiency for a well-design wind turbine.

barts
01-12-2009, 05:31 AM
The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.
We send millions of dollars worth of food to Africa every year but the UN and the EU embargo African agricuitural products, removing any incentive for African farmers to improve their lot.

George,
I love how anyone who make a statement about the real world is suddendly a racist by your standards, how have all the qualities necssary to be one of Lennin's useful idiots.

Chief, mellow out. I don't know what you're reading, but African countries that do have oil export it - we get just under a million barrels a day from Nigeria, and Angola's good for another half million. (LINK) (http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html) The political problems in Africa are fierce after decades of colonial rule and puppet despots supported by the great powers.

Fixing the agricultural products problems are going to take sacrifices from everyone - the US protects it's sugar industry, milk production, etc. Countries have good reasons to keep out mass imports from abroad - low cost imports can wipe out native farmers, and if the foreign crops fail or politics change - instant rebellion of hungry citizens.

The reason for appropriate technology in the developing world is not because the people there are dumb, it's because they don't have a lot of infrastructure. Outboard motors are absurd technology for Pacific Islanders - they take expensive gas, and don't live long in the ocean, and are hard to fix. Far better to supply them better material for sails (blue tarps are popular and better than palm fronds, but don't live long in the sun) a proper compass is a precious tool) . These generators seem pretty fixable - the electronics could be sealed and cheap, and the rest is repairable by any one skilled w/ their hands.

Evan
01-12-2009, 05:43 AM
I saw a large structure that was guyed w/ 2" wide ratcheting straps last year; those straps flapped like crazy in the slightest wind.




(I know everyone has had straps get noisy while hauling loads!)



Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.

dp
01-12-2009, 02:37 PM
The efficiency of a propeller-type wind turbine cannot exceed the Betz Limit, which is 16/27. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betz_limit.

Perhaps you meant 90% of the Betz Limit, which equates to 53% efficiency for a well-design wind turbine.

Sorry for not being more clear - I was setting up a worst-case number set as an example to demonstrate the value of replication of the wind belt method. The actual efficiencies are variable depending on wind conditions and propellers/impellers are very inefficient at low speeds and outside the speed range for which they are designed and expensive to replicate. They never exceed the Betz limit.

The target area for these things is in the under 100 watt category where there isn't much commercial activity.

dp
01-12-2009, 02:41 PM
The third world has has a resource availible but the leftists don't want them to use it, it's called oil.

Pitcairn Island has no natural oil. Tuvalu Island barely has a natural island left, but certainly no natural oil. There is no natural oil on Easter Island, Tonga, nor Tristan de Cunha. And so on.

kendall
01-12-2009, 05:17 PM
Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.

So you're saying you were born with that knowledge?

Learned that when I was a kid, but I wasn't born with the knowledge, it came with experience, and I for one am not afraid to admit that I've had a few occasions to say ooops.

So, from now on, whenever I say "everyone" please read that to mean "everyone but Evan";)

Ken.

J Tiers
01-12-2009, 10:41 PM
"J Tiers I agree that WE could easily do this."

Though a US citizen, natural born, I kind of resent that comment.

I have not even read the article linked to, but why in the hell could not others in other countries handle whatever obstructions they come up against?

How many here have problems with machines made here for the last 100 years. We don't have a good grasp of our own technology.

You deride less advanced people as to whether they can repair what you might call "infrastructure".

Our own infrastructure is so complex that when you have a problem you call them with expertise to solve your problem. Internet is acting up? Call India. Cable is out? Call India.

THEY could easily do that, too, given a bit of money and encouragement.

We are not God's Gift to anyone.

Cheers,

George

Now you see why you were on "the list".........

"WE", because "WE" and our fathers, and our grandfathers etc, have all grown up in an industrial society, "we" know ABOUT things, even if we don't know the "how" etc.

You have to put yourself in the mindset of a person who lives literally in a grass hut, maybe , (because it is very practical and available, not because they are stupid), and has had virtually no contact with even 1800s technology. They certainly have seen it, but have likely had zero opportunity to understand it, or maybe even touch it.

YOU cannot even comprehend that, because you have always been in a world with "stuff".

Now, your ancestors stopped swinging from the trees and figured out, even invented, what we don't even see because it is everywhere.....

There is NO reason why people like those villagers can't do that, but it takes generations for the idea to penetrate, just as it did with your hick ancestors, and mine. The villagers will have it easier, they don't have to invent it all, they just need to use it.

But, who has a magnet, or a piece of thin mylar, a coil of insulated wire,or even the glue to put them together, in a place 200 miles from any town, where there is no electricity within 150 miles?

It's easy to teach a hick how to use a radio.

It is NOT easy to teach a hick who only knows how to just barely USE a radio, how to FIX one.

barts
01-13-2009, 02:22 AM
Not everyone. Put a half twist in the strap and it will not flap.

That works pretty well, although w/ really long straps (longer than you get on 8' width trucks) they still flap...

Paul Alciatore
01-13-2009, 03:33 AM
how many of those little suckers would it take to boil up a cup of coffee ?

neat idea to try here in the frozen, windy northland on the shores of lake superior.

sorry, couldn't resist.:rolleyes:

Well, lets see. 40 milliWatts X 1000 = 40 Watts. That should heat a cup of water in fairly short order.

barts
01-13-2009, 04:22 AM
It is NOT easy to teach a hick who only knows how to just barely USE a radio, how to FIX one.


People are amazing... the same baby can be a medieval peasant, a brain surgeon or a truck driver, depending on environment and experiences when growing up... while I was in graduate school, one of our house mates was from Sierra Leone, where he'd grown up in a tiny village, gardening and hunting for food in the forest. Peace Corps volunteers had come to the village and started a school... they recognized this guy as bright, and he ended up a/ a high school education and got accepted somehow to UC Davis, where he was a graduate student by the time I met him. Very nice guy...

Given a bright individual, they really can learn anything they put their minds to... if they're behind when they start out, they'll catch up. The US Army showed this during WWII, taking young men from all over the country and training them to use, diagnose, and repair machinery they'd never seen before, and in just a few short months. The industrial revolution didn't come w/ training manuals, either, until later on...

I will agree that training people w/ no interest, poor attention spans and/or below average intelligence is frustrating, and can be a task best left to the porcine choirmasters amongst us....

- Bart

Evan
01-13-2009, 05:22 AM
For a different take on a similar solution have a look here:

http://www.aidg.org/component/option,com_jd-wp/Itemid,34/p,1048/

http://www.aidg.org/images/blog/ewb_1_fabric_blades_ps.jpg

J Tiers
01-13-2009, 09:35 AM
People are amazing... the same baby can be a medieval peasant, a brain surgeon or a truck driver, depending on environment and experiences when growing up... while I was in graduate school, one of our house mates was from Sierra Leone, where he'd grown up in a tiny village, gardening and hunting for food in the forest. Peace Corps volunteers had come to the village and started a school... they recognized this guy as bright, and he ended up a/ a high school education and got accepted somehow to UC Davis, where he was a graduate student by the time I met him. Very nice guy...

Given a bright individual, they really can learn anything they put their minds to... if they're behind when they start out, they'll catch up.

Your examples are only more proof for what I said. I am quite in agreement that people can learn, catch up fast, etc...... BUT ENVIRONMENT IS KEY.

Your student did not STAY in the village...... he came HERE, and was immersed in "our world"..... Same with people in the army.... they were immersed in what they learned.

That is so totally unlike the situation in reality as to be meaningless, really.

You have to grasp the concept that most people are not going to leave the village.... they live there. The environment is most often totally agrarian, with no "technology" past what is needed for subsistence farming.

The nearest place that has any spare parts for anything not made in the village may be a hundred miles away..... may as well be on the moon.

The villagers are immersed in an environment that is totally devoid of "technology" as far as daily life is concerned. Sure, a vehicle may drive through sometimes.... but day-to-day life has nothing to do with that. It's weaving, herding, crops, and sleep.

Now introduce a device that while simple in concept TO US, uses forces that cannot be seen or felt, makes a form of power that cannot be seen or felt, and has no "obvious moving parts" to produce the power.

YOU can NOT understand how utterly foreign that can be in an environment of subsistence farming among people many or most of whom may have no meaningful education whatsoever in any "science" subject...... it is just something you are so used to that you never think about it.

Evan
01-13-2009, 09:59 AM
It doesn't matter what a persons technological background or lack of it is. Some people are naturally equipped to understand how things work and will figure out simple mechanical systems without reference to previous knowledge. Electricity is a mystery to everyone and is just a matter of learning some basic rules on how to deal with it without making things smoke or killing yourself. A good friend of mine from days past is an engineer in Germany who has been posted to various third world countries to install and train locals on the use and maintenance of solar electric powered well pumps. This allows the use of deep wells instead of dugouts or stream water that is most often contaminated with cholera. The pumps are very low volume and the solar panels are ruggedized so there isn't a lot to go wrong. Water is continuously pumped to a holding tank whenever power is available. The bottom line is clean water for drinking and washing which improves health.

These type of solutions go a long way and don't require much of the locals. They are not the same as giving a starving man a fish and it isn't necessary that the people who use it know how it works. How many people do you know that understand what happens when they turn on a light?

J Tiers
01-13-2009, 08:47 PM
It doesn't matter what a persons technological background or lack of it is.
....................................
How many people do you know that understand what happens when they turn on a light?

Westerners don't get it. Westerners CAN'T get it..... They just can't wrap their minds around it.

YOU don't HAVE to know anything but how to turn on the light..... If it does not work, you can call someone.

it's different other places. REALLY different.

New stuff arrives, and works... after a while it stops working, and nobody can fix it, no parts, lack of understanding, whatever......... so what happens is that pieces of it get used for something else, and eventually it CAN'T work..... and it sits there unused and unusable.

It's different even in the USA..... in backwoods places where the people are very poor, and there isn't much "stuff".

I give up....... everyone is basically arguing about whether people elsewhere could possibly be hungry and thirsty, and asking why they don't just go to the store................. as they all sip their drinks and eat their dessert.

Evan
01-13-2009, 10:15 PM
I get it just fine Jerry. When we moved here the natives on the reserves were still driving wagons to town by horse power. Some had cars which were the $100 specials from the used car pot lot. They didn't have any clue except how to herd it down the road and maybe buy some gas. If the oil got low then the engine would seize. Every shack on the reserves would have 6 or 10 dead cars in front. Only the young spoke any english, all the elders were entirely illiterate and uneducated except in how to live off the land. Some of the reserves had power but most didn't and the main spare time activity was drinking. The people on the reserves were absolutely dirt poor. As poor as anyone in the third world. I know because I serviced equipment in the Band Offices on the reserves. This area was one of the very last to be settled by whites in North America and in the interior west of here it wasn't settled until the 1900s.

Even so there were kids on the reserves that somehow managed to overcome the worst possible conditions and get an education, a degree and most often, come back here to teach.

J Tiers
01-13-2009, 10:50 PM
I am going to answer ONE last time, because I am covertly being called a RACIST.


I get it just fine Jerry.

permit me to NOT believe you............. as you prove below.




The people on the reserves were absolutely dirt poor. As poor as anyone in the third world. I know because I serviced equipment in the Band Offices on the reserves. This area was one of the very last to be settled by whites in North America and in the interior west of here it wasn't settled until the 1900s.

Even so there were kids on the reserves that somehow managed to overcome the worst possible conditions and get an education, a degree and most often, come back here to teach.


Pu....LEEEESE, try, at least, to understand that I am not impugning the intelligence of anyone...... Smart has no border nor colors, nor economic status.

However.........

EVERYONE is giving examples of people PULLED OUT of their environment, and immersed ELSEWHERE in an educational setting..... Gosh, I wonder why a smart person might do well there :rolleyes:

Evan's example is the WORST of all the ones so far......

Band offices... BAND OFFICES? Oy... servicing equipment in offices? Double - Oy......

What is an office? There is no office for 150 miles....... What is equipment? it runs on electricity? There is no electricity for 150 miles.

We are talking about people 100 miles from nowhere, or they wouldn't NEED 25 cent 40 mW generators......... 100 miles from nowhere, and most everyone has never been farther than 5 miles from home.... ever

They do not HAVE anything, there isn't anything to "have" for many days journey, except small coins, animals, and crops. There are no spare parts, and nobody would know where to get them anyway.

it isn't just poor, it isn't just ignorance, it isn't just distance, it isn't just lack of education....

it is ALL of them, with local customs, etc, tossed in.

It is a totally fixable situation, but it takes time to fix. A few mysterious light-givers in the village isn't going to make that all not true.... they are un-maintainable....

Possibly if you show the local people how to make them, you may get somewhere. You do need spare parts, because there are things in them that locals cannot get locally..

But distributing them will not do very much... they will stop working when a chicken pecks or flies into one, etc, etc, etc, and then there won't be the knowledge to fix it, or maybe parts to fix it.

Sorry, but you simply do NOT understand the complete lack of most anything you take for granted that is village life in many places on earth.

dp
01-13-2009, 11:04 PM
Sorry, but you simply do NOT understand the complete lack of most anything that is village life in many places on earth.

Why should we think you do understand? You have not stated your qualifications. Further, your description of the target population does not describe well the situation for many Pacific islanders, for example. Pitcairn Island has one generator and it is run for a short time each week. It is expensive because fuel is expensive. And it generates, or has capacity for, far more electricity than is needed and so is very inefficient. It is also centrally located where it is least convenient to the largest numbers. These simple wind generators that run 24/7/365 produce the right kind of energy where it is needed, affordably.

For the cost of fuel to run that one generator for a year every islander (there are not that many) could have dozens of simple throw-away generators in their homes charging batteries day and night. They can sell the broken ones to tourons (morons who tour).

rotate
01-13-2009, 11:36 PM
In 1980's I was on a motorcycle journeying through India on a Royal Enfield when I got hopelessly lost in a remote part of Bihar (one of the more poorer state in India). I was getting desperate because I was low on fuel and I didn't know where I was. I came through on a small village and I proceed to ask where I was. I opened my map to ask where I was relative to the town that I wanted to go. Soon all the men from the village gathered and I'm sure I was the first foreigner that they had met in person. After spending frustrating few minutes, I realized that they had never seen a map before. They were holding it up as if it was a poster. The notion that you would draw a Cartesian coordinate map that showed hundreds of miles of road was completely foreign to them. In the end, I drew them a picture of a train and they pointed me in the right direction, although even then I had to draw a picture of myself and the motorcycle to indicate that "we are here".

What I thought was intuitive and self-evident was obviously something that was dinged into my brain in my early years of education and not something that I was born with. I have encountered many situation in Africa where pointing out the obvious was met with puzzled looks.

J Tiers
01-13-2009, 11:42 PM
DP, I didn't say it was universal, I said in many places, And that is true.

40 mW at 1.2 V is going to charge a lot of batteries....... NOT...... at least not fast.

It is perfectly possible to make things which will do well, and distribute them. or better, to have the locals make them. If locals make them, the supply chain is in place and things go smoother in every way.

But a concept device from far away, no matter how simple, is just that,...... a "thing", not a process or a plan or a developable resource.

There have been very successful applications of inexpensive induction motors as generators in places in South America which have water power. But they are systems, and located much closer to "technology centers" than some places in Asia or Africa. Locals are directly involved in first asking for them, and then assembling and running them. Locals had the need, the knowledge of a solution's existence, and thus looked for workable solutions, even though they didn't have the knowledge to design one.

In other places, the solutions seem to come first, dropped in by western "seagull advocates", who fly in, basically drop magic devices that will "get the natives started on modern life" all over the place like crap, and fly away again.... leaving the locals to wonder just why this all happened. That ain't the way it really works, but the "ribbon generator" deal sounds like that sort of situation.

it ain't the device, it is the plan.

Evan
01-14-2009, 12:47 AM
Evan's example is the WORST of all the ones so far......

Band offices... BAND OFFICES? Oy... servicing equipment in offices? Double - Oy......

What is an office? There is no office for 150 miles....... What is equipment? it runs on electricity? There is no electricity for 150 miles.


Jerry, you don't get it at all. A Band Office wasn't some sort of air conditioned plush carpeted building with all the amenities. It might be a run down mobile home with a wood heater in the plywood shack added on to the entrance. The equipment I serviced most often was an electric typewriter run from a small genset. The "staff" might be the hereditary chief with his wife.

I am talking about people with none of the training and skills that you think necessary to take advantage of small technology improvements. I think that you are greatly underestimating the capability of people to adapt, learn and understand regardless of circumstances.

dp
01-14-2009, 12:48 AM
DP, I didn't say it was universal, I said in many places, And that is true.

You have to give people credit for some intelligence - nobody is going to put inappropriate technology where it will fail except as an experiment. Your concerns apply to all efforts to assist primitive cultures - and it is already the case that many viable technologies are not being suggested.

Don't be transfixed by the 40mW figure - the team behind this is after the sub-100 Watt demographic. Certainlyh 40mW is in this category but they're really after more than that. 10 minutes into this video will give you their target - achievable? TBD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mecU7S2xoJc

J Tiers
01-14-2009, 09:49 AM
You have to give people credit for some intelligence - nobody is going to put inappropriate technology where it will fail except as an experiment.

10 minutes into this video will give you their target - achievable? TBD.

Not interested in spending 10 minutes on that.... I looked at anough to get the general idea.

The 40 mW was mentioned and repeated and rammed-home in prior posts, so I used that figure..........

And as for your intelligence comment..... if so there are lots of dumb but well-meaning people around, because it has been done MANY times...... It doesn't take much to get out of reality on something....

Many problems are due to what is "scrap"..... What WE think is 'scrap" is often a useful material to a 3rd world area..... so planning on using some types of "discarded scrap" is unrealistic, it is neither scrap nor discarded.

Just one way the do-gooder rich folks mess up.

(edited to fix quote w/o quote box)