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HSS
01-12-2009, 11:02 AM
This may not be the place to ask this, but the folks over at that CNC forum seem rather snobish. Don't care to get flamed for asking a seemingly stupid question. When programing a CNC machine to operate do you have to enter in the feed and speed and doc or do you just tell it the material you are machining and it will use optimum configurations?

I hope this isn't a really stoopid question, but I have been wondering this for a while.:confused:

Patrick

b2u44
01-12-2009, 11:06 AM
You usually have to manually enter the feed and speed.

Evan
01-12-2009, 11:18 AM
There are too many variables for the programmer to anticpate to accurately calculate feed and speed. To begin it not only depends on the material type but the alloy, the cutter type and material, number of flutes, spindle rpm and the machine charateristics and wear. The setup, tool overhang and holder type, tool wear and the phase of the moon also matter.

SGW
01-12-2009, 11:24 AM
Mach3 has a "wizard" available that helps you calculate proper feed and speed and chip load for various materials, but you have to enter information about the cutter type, diameter, and material. Maybe a couple other details. Even then, a test run may indicate that the speed and feed ought to be modified a bit.

Dawai
01-12-2009, 11:31 AM
And, the rigidity of the machine..

A bridgeport without the swivel head is much more rigid than one with all the knuckles and gear train that adjusts cutter angles.

during cuts, I could feel my bridgeport come under stress and off by laying my hand on the mill head.

Mark Hockett
01-12-2009, 12:30 PM
My CAM system prompts you for the material type, cutter type and if coolant will be used and calculates the speeds and feeds. I can also input speeds and feeds into the tool path manually. I can aslo go into the tool and material libraries and make SFPM modifications if I don't like what the system is outputting.

Mark McGrath
01-12-2009, 01:02 PM
You enter speed and feed,doc is programmed when you tell the tool to go to the start of the cut.There is a cnc control which has a lot of data entered for material,tool types,speeds,feeds etc,but it`s the exception rather than the rule.

lazlo
01-12-2009, 01:36 PM
There is a cnc control which has a lot of data entered for material,tool types,speeds,feeds etc, but it`s the exception rather than the rule.

Most modern (Fanuc, Anilam, ...) CNC controllers are like that now: the speeds and feeds are calculated by the CAM program (they're basically looking up the tables in Machinery's Handbook), but there are speeds and feeds dials on the controller itself that you can use to override the CAM software.

The dials at the bottom of this Fanuc controller are the speeds and feeds overrides:

http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/computer-numerical-controls-cnc-for-machine-tool-17234.jpg

lazlo
01-12-2009, 01:47 PM
By the way Patrick, the CNC forum of PracticalMachinist is probably not the right place to ask these kind of questions, but CNCZone is a huge forum populated by a young and vibrant crowd of amateur CNC enthusiasts.

They're very good about answering questions like this, and there are a ton of FAQ's (Frequently Asked Questions) about steppers versus servos, acme versus ballscrews, linear versus dovetail ways, ...

Here's the CNCZone sub-forum that's dedicated for CNC FAQ's:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=172

If you go to the Gallery section, there are literally hundreds of home-built CNC machines, ranging from CNC routers, mills, gantrys, lathes, Bridgeport retrofits...

http://www.cnczone.com/gallery/showgallery.php/cat/505

You'll see a lot of familiar faces over there, including McGyver, S_J_H, Sir John, CKelloug, ...

DR
01-12-2009, 02:10 PM
If you don't like picking feeds you buy one of the high end CNC controls. Program the tool path and tell the control the accuracy to the tool path you want to maintain. The machine then goes like hell while trying to maintain the tool path within your accuracy spec.

Sorry for the smart ass reply, but as least it gives guys something to lust for when they get beyond Mach 3.

Mark McGrath
01-12-2009, 04:09 PM
"Most modern (Fanuc, Anilam, ...) CNC controllers are like that now: the speeds and feeds are calculated by the CAM program (they're basically looking up the tables in Machinery's Handbook), but there are speeds and feeds dials on the controller itself that you can use to override the CAM software."

Since when was a cam programme part of a cnc control?

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 04:13 PM
I've seen a few high-end controls with a CAD/CAM package built in. Great for doing online edits.

The 1990s vintage WARCOM pressbrake I used to run had a CAM system of sorts, you'd draw the part on screen, tell it where to bend and what material/thickness and it would program itself. Use of anything other than WARCOM supplied tooling would often result in tears and scrap until someone went in and changed the tables.

Mark McGrath
01-12-2009, 04:25 PM
"I've seen a few high-end controls with a CAD/CAM package built in. Great for doing online edits. "

Apart from a 20 year old type specific cnc,would you like to name anymore?
I`m thinking Fanuc,Siemens,Heidenhain.What I would call industry standard names.

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 04:37 PM
Well I seem to remember the AMADA Promecam brake having something similar, and I know for a fact the Amada NT controller had it as well. These are industry-standard as far as I am concerned bad spelling aside. :)

Now if I'm not mistaken the laser at VI MFG was refit with a controller that had an online cad/code generator program, and I know for a fact the mills did as well. I want to say Hurco but as I did very little milling there (mostly press-work) I can't be certain. I remember one of the machinist-programmers drawing a quick fixture for me on the machine controller itself, pressing a few buttons handing me the results before lunch.

Mark McGrath
01-12-2009, 05:23 PM
I agree that most cnc laser,plasma,pressbrake and punch machines have some kind of cam programme built in.But these are basic programmes and unless you spend $000`s basic is what you get.I have a cnc punch and a cnc pressbrake and by no stretch of the imagination can you call the canned cycles the manufacturer gives you cam.They are also not mainstream machines in the machining sense and the op asked about feed,speed and doc which means metalcutting machines in the line of lathes and mills.

lazlo
01-12-2009, 06:22 PM
Most modern (Fanuc, Anilam, ...) CNC controllers are like that now: the speeds and feeds are calculated by the CAM program (they're basically looking up the tables in Machinery's Handbook), but there are speeds and feeds dials on the controller itself that you can use to override the CAM software.

Since when was a cam programme part of a cnc control?

Who said that it was?

You run your CAM software, which calculates the speeds and feeds, and you upload the resulting G-Code to the CNC controller, which allows you to override the speeds and feeds with the dials on the controller and/or the pendant.

MasterCAM's description of the process:

Mastercam Delivers Needed Speed for Faster Part Production

http://www.mastercam.com/CamZone/Articles/Archives/Article3.aspx

When establishing feed rates for your 3-axis milling machine, The Machinery Handbook is often a place to start, or if you are lucky, you can consult your shop’s feed rate expert. Among other parameters when manually programming feed rates, you have to consider the dynamics of the particular machine tool, the material, the cutter, which roughing pass you are calculating, adjustments when heading into a corner, what the required finish is on the part, when that special tool comes into play, and the list goes on. Because of the many variables, most people play it as safe as possible. They might find The Machinery Handbook figure, back off from that 10 percent or so, and simply maintain that one feed rate throughout the entire process. The logical thinking is, “it will be fine for my cutters, and it will save me days of painstaking programming time to plug in all the different rates during various process stages and particular part features.” Granted, it is a safe approach. However, with today’s CAM software programs, feed rate optimization is one feature you need to be using more often because of compelling benefits.

What is it?

In general, feed rate optimization is a programming tool within many CAM packages that enables the programmer to build feed rate adjustments into the CNC program in the off-line mode. It operates by analyzing the CNC toolpath G-code or ATP format and divides the motion into smaller segments. Based on the volume of material removed in each segment, the software calculates the optimum feed rate for the cutting condition. It then provides a new toolpath that is identical to the original, except with new feed rates.

Mark Hockett
01-12-2009, 06:41 PM
Since when was a cam programme part of a cnc control?

Hurco and Milltronics are two that I know have built in CAM packages. Just drop in your DXF file and you have all the tools in the control to generate the tool paths. I also think Haas has or is working on a CAM interface.

mochinist
01-12-2009, 06:57 PM
My atrump cnc with the centroid control has a old version of mastercam built into it, we never paid to unlock it though as we had Featurecam already, and what Mark Hockett described is pretty much what Featurecam does.

oldtiffie
01-12-2009, 07:06 PM
This may not be the place to ask this, but the folks over at that CNC forum seem rather snobish. Don't care to get flamed for asking a seemingly stupid question. When programing a CNC machine to operate do you have to enter in the feed and speed and doc or do you just tell it the material you are machining and it will use optimum configurations?

I hope this isn't a really stoopid question, but I have been wondering this for a while.:confused:

Patrick

Hi Patrick.

First of all - a welcome here. Next, there are no stupid questions if you need to know something. There are some very good coaches here that will help you if they can see that you are doing your best to help yourself. I can't assure you that there will be no "snobbishness" or "talking down to" you here either, but stick with it and those that really do want to help you at your level instead of just tell what they know or do will prevail. There are some terrific and very helpful people here - the vast majority in fact.

Enjoy yourself here.

I am more or less in the same zone as you are.

I have the CNC package called "Mach3" on my computer. I have had a go at it several times, but as I am a bit older than most I tend to forget things unless I do them regularly - CNC/Mach3 very much included. As I seem to leave the breaks longer than I should in my circumstances, there is a lot of revision to do.

"Mach3" is pretty well the "default" CNC system and is very good and intuitive and used extensively.

There is a "free" version, which is very good, and of course the "paid" version - not expensive at all - is even better.

There are excellent tutorials as well as fora/forums? as well.

It is quite practical in many cases to use the "Wizards" in Mach3 to do simple jobs and to even generate simple code to drive the CNC machine.

As others have said, you can set the depth of cut/s, speeds and feeds within Mach3.

Ideally, you should have and use a simple CAD system to "draw" your work. This is then exported in the form of a DXF file and then converted into CNC code - say Mach3.

There are adequate free or cheap CAD and DXF to CNC converter software about.

Mach3 has separate utilities for the lathe, the mill and the plasma cutter - all are in the Mach3 down-load.

I would suggest loading Mach3 onto your machine, reading the very helpful Help files and tutorials and "Run" Mach3 "on-screen" as it will emulate the cut and sequence. The speed and depth of cut, cutter off-set etc. can all be very well controlled and changed in Mach3.

Don't be over-awed by all the mention of "high-end" stuff, at this stage at least. Mach3 is a whole lot more than "training wheels" - which it does very well - but it is a full-blown CNC package as well.

Don't get confused or over-awed by all the "advice" reading "stepper" vs. "servo" etc. etc. at this stage as its not needed. If you do decide to go ahead and either buy a full-blown "turn-key" package (all set ready to go) or convert a machine - lathe, mill etc. - yourself, then let it wait until you have a better appreciation of the capabilities - and limitations - of CAD, CNC and the size and capacity of the machine you really need. Just take it slowly - one deliberate step at a time.

There are or maybe some steep learning curves, so just address one at a time and increase your pace as you feel more comfortable with it.

Hasten slowly and enjoy yourself.

Most of your questions, so far as I can see, will

mochinist
01-12-2009, 07:14 PM
"Mach3" is pretty well the "default" CNC system and is very good and intuitive and used extensively.
Maybe it's different down under but I don't think I have ever seen mach3 being used in a pro shop(and I've been in a lot of shops locally) except for maybe John Stevensons??? That isn't a knock at him either and I'm not even sure if he uses it for money making ops or if it is just on the hobby machines he builds???

Mark McGrath
01-12-2009, 07:25 PM
Lazlo,as you seem to have reading difficulties,I have copied the OP`s post again here so you don`t have to flick back and forward.

"--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This may not be the place to ask this, but the folks over at that CNC forum seem rather snobish. Don't care to get flamed for asking a seemingly stupid question. When programing a CNC machine to operate do you have to enter in the feed and speed and doc or do you just tell it the material you are machining and it will use optimum configurations?

I hope this isn't a really stoopid question, but I have been wondering this for a while. "

Where on here does he ask anything about cam systems and why is there a need to mention them?He asks a few simple cnc programming questions,nothing more,so why do we need to bring masercam into it?

mochinist
01-12-2009, 07:33 PM
Where on here does he ask anything about cam systems and why is there a need to mention them?He asks a few simple cnc programming questions,nothing more,so why do we need to bring masercam into it?He probably didn't ask about a cam program specifically because he didnt know, besides "programming" isn't very specific, it can mean fingercaming it or using a conversational program, or one of the many cad/cam packages.

lazlo
01-12-2009, 07:33 PM
Where on here does he ask anything about cam systems and why is there a need to mention them?

You did Mark:



You enter speed and feed,doc is programmed when you tell the tool to go to the start of the cut.
There is a cnc control which has a lot of data entered for material,tool types,speeds,feeds etc.
Most modern (Fanuc, Anilam, ...) CNC controllers are like that now

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 08:42 PM
You did Mark:
That had to feel sweet :D


Quote: "so why do we need to bring masercam into it?"
I agree, I like OneCNC much better :D

Just having some fun Mark, don't get up set, since the OP has prettty much been answered.

Ken

spope14
01-12-2009, 08:46 PM
Patrick,

In response to your original question, when programming a CNC Machine-without CAD/CAM, or for that matter, editing a CAD CAM generated set of G/M codes, you program speeds, feeds, and DOC manually. Granted CAD/CAM Programs will do this for you, but the best programmers also know how to either hand program a simple and even a fairly complex part involving many tools by using "on the machine" programming. Programs on the vasdt majority of name brand and even simple controls do NOT have material parameters to change these "base" features in a program that runs on the machine.

Rule one to remember: CNC and CAD/CAM are truly stupid, dumber than your Bridgeport. The bridgeport has the human as the control, and the human instinctively through training on the machines such as turn the spindle ON, what direction the cutter should turn, slow it down because the cutter is turning red, or feed the cutting tool into the material slower and cut back the depth. You also know good surface finish. Your CNC machine will run a program in rapid with poor surface finish, with a red or totally mashed cutter, and will melt a part if not told to do otherwise correctly IN A PROGRAM, and it will even run your changed program if things are still not correct, unless it is a very obvious error in points matching up inthe actual toolpath (PS errors on Fanuc - PROGRAM STINKS, then a number on the code tells you how it stinks).

I could go on forever and in fact invite your questions, ( teach this stuff). However, speeds are programmed with "S" codes such as S1200, which tells the machine to run at 1200 RPM, and a code to turn the spindle on right after that (M3). You need to tell the machine to turn on the spindle! You can adjust speeds after it is running, but if turned off, you have to CODE it to turn back on - or it will not and will run the entire program spindle off with a broken tool or mashed spindle.

Feeds are programmed F and in inch per minute on mills. For example F20 means the material will be cut at 20 inches movement in a minute (or the machine moving in a direction, it will move 20 minutes in one minute).

The relationship between speeds and feed is this, a simple math program. First step to determine both, get your surface feet per minute from some sort of manual (from your cutting tool manufacturer is best, though machinery's handbook has them as well. I am going to assume you have some knowledge of SPPM, if not, let me know. You take the material SFPM x 4 (multiply by 4) and divide by the diameter of the cutter (decimal inch) This gives you your speed. Nest step to find feed, take the RPMs x number of flutes (for a drill use a single flute) x feed per tooth - (also from the manuals or machinery''s).

Depth of cuts are determined through the manuals as well for the cutter type. Various considerations - such as mentioned in other posts like machine and set-up rigidity affect all of this. A flimsy machine runs slower and less deep, and the other way for a major machine.

OK, probably knew quite a bit of this. Many on the forum mentioned how CAD/CAM programs compensate for all of this through materials type ratings and entering the material in the drawing and toolpathing process.

RULE TWO - CAD?CAM makes mistakes and has not turned a handle. CAD/CAM often "dumps" code that needs immediate editing in some way or another - unless the programmer is especially competent in the machines, tools, and specifics of a shop they are working in!!! Post processed code - code generated by a CAD?CAM system may have simple "mistakes" (things that need editing for the specific machine) in F,S, DOC, and even tool numbers assigned to the actual machine tool magazine of tools.

This, or you may change tool types/materials or your material you make the part out of may change. This is why you need to know how to program speed and feed manually or edit it manually. You do not run 1000 parts by upping/downing the feed/speed overides. You somehow need to get it programmed right to be truly successful in this. Even a single part run, if you are not close to start with, even these overrides may not save you.

OK, open to more questions if you want, but for all the controls i run regularly, (Cincinnatti, Yasnack, Fanuc, Anilam, Light, Emco, HAAS), you need to know these basics and yes, how to programs these in by hand (manually).

I gave probably too much answer, maybe confused. This lesson takes about two weeks to really get into the heads of my students as they learn this actually programming parts and fixing programs I have written with errors in them they need to find.

Great place to ask. I also post on both boards as well. My final advice, learn to program manually first before trusting CAD?CAM programs. They ARE great and i use them daily, but there are many times when I can bang out a program by hand quicker than CAD/CAM. The best CAD/Camm'ers know hand programming first, and use this to their advanytage in drawing.

HSS
01-12-2009, 09:01 PM
I think I'll stick to my manual machine. I can hear and feel what it is doing and can backout or slow down. It sounds like there is a very steep learning curve with CNC unless one takes a nite course at college. I do appreciate everyone responding to my queries tho. I have found that there are many things that can spark quite a bit of pro and con discussions on this board, probably other boards too.
Thanks again for all of the answers given.

Patrick

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 09:06 PM
Patrick,
To add just a bit to spope14 "Post processed code - code generated by a CAD?CAM system may have simple "mistakes" (things that need editing for the specific machine) in F,S, DOC, and even tool numbers assigned to the actual machine tool magazine of tools."

Many of the higher end Cam programs have what they call preview or simulate where it actually runs through the generated code, showing the stock, actual material removal, tool entrance, exit tool location and rapids. These programs are also available separately at lower cost other then spending a lot of dollars for a CAM program, perhaps not as sophisticated but very useful and will help you develop confidence also help alleviate a lot of that tenseness encountered when pushing the cycle start button. I still get that :D

Ken

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 09:10 PM
Eventually I want to get a CNC-ified mill so I can noodle around with it. At this point I can change tools on a "real" CNC mill and feed the machine blanks but I would like to learn a bit more.

Don't think I want to get full on into programming mills as a living though, my head is already full of programming stuff for molding machines and CNC press-brakes.

oldtiffie
01-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Very good focused reply scope14.

I did wander off into computer, Mach3 and CAD/CAM where the question - as you correctly read and answered it - was to do with "programming".

I wondered why I wandered off. It seems that I just wanted to relate the program to something that could be implemented by emulation on a computer-screen and so far as I am aware Mach3 is a good one for this purpose at least. Perhaps I wrongly presumed that the OP was interested in getting into doing something with CNC in a typical small HSM environment rather than focusing on answering the specific question.

Perhaps the OP (HSS - Patrick) can let us know how and where he wants to go in this regard as it will get us all heading in the right direction.

I just read Patrick's last post and it seems that he has given it away. That's his choice to make.

Mark McGrath
01-13-2009, 04:02 AM
Well,I still do not see where I was first to bring up cam systems,but will read it again when I return from WORK.
As an aside.I have a few cnc machines and less than 2% of the turning programmes get done by cam and probably 30% of the milling.Smashes are exceptionally rare.

Stepside
01-13-2009, 10:57 AM
As I read the original post, the question is "are CNC machines so smart that they can set their own feeds, speeds and cutting depth".

The answer is "it depends". It depends on the machine, the cutter, the material and the part holding system. Many of the CAM systems have preset but changeable values where you can choose material, cutter parameters ect. At this point you choose feeds, speeds and cutting parameters. You could accept what the machine has as a starting point or you can change any/all the values. On a 3D toolpath or a complicated 2-1/2D toolpath you would want to use a CAM package of some sort.

If it is a somewhat simple 2-1/2D part, I find I can "handwrite" the code using notepad or MS Word quicker and much shorter than using a CAM product. And yes you have to tell it how fast, how deep and cutter RPM. Having used MasterCam, RhinoCam, FlashCut and LightMill, I have found they all need you to adjust the preset values for your operation.

When I was teaching machine shop classes, we started out with hand written code. This was a great help in being able to edit what the CAM products would spit out.

Evan
01-13-2009, 11:45 AM
About half the time when I am using my mill I don't use it in CNC programmed mode. I just use the jog controls and set them for the feed I need and manually control the machine from the keyboard. If all I need is to surface something in a couple of passes it doesn't make sense to waste time setting up a program. I can tell it to jog 5 inches at 2 ipm and hit the button and off it goes while I do something else nearby. One of the reasons I built the CNC mill is to take the load off my wrists. They don't do well with any sort of rotation movements. It's also nice in "manual" mode to have the on screen DROs to refer to. There isn't much of a learning curve for this sort of operation and for things like bolt circles or pocketing the wizards are easy to use. You don't need to know G code to make good use of the machine right at the start. You can learn the G code later.

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 06:59 PM
Thanks Evan.

That was a very good, thoughtful and relevant reply so far as I am concerned at the early "try the water" stage in CNC for me at least. Those issues had crossed my mind in passing previously but I never really considered them as perhaps as well as I should have until I read your post. I gave it a lot more thought after that!!!

It also reassures me that I can - to a surprisingly good degree - "manually" and intellectually control and feed my mill, lathe or what-ever. That, to me, is more than sufficient reason to at least have Mach3 on the computer to practice on and later to have it on the mill or lathe if for no other reason than to be able to keep up my machining hobby as I age further. I may perhaps be a sort or therapy should I become disabled or of limited mobility and dexterity should I have arthritis, a stroke, Parkinson's disease, be in a wheel-chair etc. any or all of which may rule out larger machines. It may enable me to keep using small machine and hand tools a lot better and longer than I otherwise might.

That may well be the ultimate therapeutic benefit of HSM-ing.

Again - many thanks - much appreciated.

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 07:19 PM
Excellent points Evan,
OldTiffie,
That makes a CNC machine useful from the start with very little learning curve. Precise movement is very quick and easy unlike the manual cranks with a DRO where you really gotta sneak up on the desired reading. My machine has manual cranks for X&Y, Z is only usable from the control, I have never used the hand cranks, the control just makes it too easy and precise.

Ken

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 08:11 PM
Ken,

I was aware of that too - many thanks.

Its a long drawn out saga - been going on for ages - but I have ordered but have agreed to delay delivery of this kit (Level 3) for my Sieg X3 mill:
http://www.cnckits.com.au/index.html

I have asked for it to be 4-axis and for a CNC-ed 6" "Vertex" rotary table.

I also have a "Shuttle Express"
http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm
which I am assured will fit right into my CNC set-up for "manual" and "jog" control as I can see no practical way or advantage of using hand-wheels which will he eliminated as part of the CNC retro-fit.

Your advice about the on-screen DRO was "right on the money" too - the more so as there is no need to try to get to see what is on a DRO screen. But having said that, I will fit a DRO to the mill anyway if for no other reasons than to check the intended position as per the CNC screen with the actual position as per the DRO screen. Further, the DRO will enable me, albeit perhaps crudely in Metrology terms, to "map" the accuracy and back-lash in my ball-screws.

The DRO I intend to use is here:
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=D701
https://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=D728

I guess it will surprise no one that I have had a similar "Easson" 3 axis set for my HF-45 mill in its box in my shop for about 2 years and really never had the need or opportunity to set them up on the mill.

I am waiting to see the new "Sieg" small lathe that John Stevenson has been working on for "Sieg" as it looks to be very impressive indeed. It is very tempting!!!

I am 72 and am pretty well in the middle of the 65 > 85 demographic when we - here anyway - seem to start "falling off the twig" in large numbers at about 65 and pretty well finish the job - mostly - by 85. I'd like to think that I have a fair chance of being able to work in my shop at progressively lesser levels until I am 80. So, I've got a fair bit to think about and get done if I am to achieve that objective.

CNC on a small lathe and mill will go a long way toward that end - including computing and the intellectual challenge.

There are a lot of "ifs and buts" in there but its another challenge with lots of benefits as Evan has pointed out.

Ken_Shea
01-14-2009, 01:00 AM
I am 72 and am pretty well in the middle of the 65 > 85 demographic when we - here anyway - seem to start "falling off the twig" in large numbers at about 65

haha, I guess that's one way of putting it.

Actually, what you are wanting to do is great therapy for our older minds, keeps them thinking, you don't sound like you are going to "fall off the twig" any time soon to me.

That jog unit will be just the ticket !

I would love to get a 4th axis too but the setup is too cost prohibitive for my mill just to play with. I am making a (should say working on) controllable indexer but that is not the same as a live 4th axis by any means.

Ken

Evan
01-14-2009, 01:51 AM
It has been shown that people that continue to learn and use their minds to solve problems have a reduced rate of senile dementia and alzheimers. It has also been discovered that the brain can continue to manufacture new nerve material and actually increase the number of interconnections in the brain even in old age.