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Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 05:49 PM
The following is excerpts from a poster named Rigger,
With only 37 post he may be going for a record.
Not all the little jabs, just the most useless.

Riggers, you need to lighten up, this is NOT your board, show some respect or keep it to yourself. !

That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day.

That was a really helpful post Moron

That's all we need on this thread, the village idiot.


That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day.

You are either loosing it, full of sh it, or just milking it for all you can with your 'reports' of secret missions, conspiracies etc.

Smash the stuck record and shoot the boring old bastards ?

There goes another proud animal sacrificed on the alter of bigotry, stupidity and ignorance. Owners need licenses, not animals.

mochinist
01-12-2009, 05:59 PM
The moderation is light here, and we can't do nothing about it, be better if you emailed the staff

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 05:59 PM
I suspect a "sock-puppet" account. Someone created a new login id and is using it to post one-liners.

I could be wrong though sometimes forums do attract these sorts, they have nothing better to do than post thread-derailing SPAM all day. While I do spend quite a bit time online lately I generally try to keep my comments topical or at least humorous and non-offensive as possible.

A quick check of the IP logs backstage can either confirm or refute my suspicions.

Peter N
01-12-2009, 06:03 PM
The following is excerpts from a poster named Rigger,
With only 37 post he may be going for a record.
Not all the little jabs, just the most useless.

Riggers, you need to lighten up, this is NOT your board, show some respect or keep it to yourself. !


Right.
So anyone can have an opinion, so long as itís the same as yours then?
Personally, I think Rigger often calls it exactly as it is more often than not, and just because itís not another sycophantic backslap you donít like it?

A forum is an open exchange of ideas, good and bad, peaceful and righteous, brilliant and ill informed, and often all in the same thread. Thatís why we have moderators and not censors.
And he's spot on about Alans (Jackarys) machine

Peter

mochinist
01-12-2009, 06:04 PM
I suspect a "sock-puppet" account. Someone created a new login id and is using it to post one-liners.

I could be wrong though sometimes forums do attract these sorts, they have nothing better to do than post thread-derailing SPAM all day. While I do spend quite a bit time online lately I generally try to keep my comments topical or at least humorous and non-offensive as possible.

A quick check of the IP logs backstage can either confirm or refute my suspicions.We call em mults(multiple accounts) on another site, it's usually someone that is angry at the site for whatever reason. Some of them can be funny

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 06:11 PM
Come on Peter, surely you cannot defend that sort frequent sarcasm, by myself or any others.

Perhaps, you need to re-read the excerpts???
You consider those excerpts "an open exchange of ideas" do you ???

I agree "why we have moderators and not censors." we need to be adult enough to censor ourselves.


Ken

Peter N
01-12-2009, 06:20 PM
You're right in a way Ken, in that his manner of posting is a bit abrasive.
So perhaps if he were to make his point in a less aggressive manner, then the gist of it may come across better.
I suppose that what I was trying to say was that I have broadly (although silently) agreed with the thrust of some of his arguments and don't think that he should castigated for his opinions.

Peter

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 06:27 PM
We call em mults(multiple accounts) on another site, it's usually someone that is angry at the site for whatever reason. Some of them can be funny

I've done it a few times myself so I know how it works. I also spend time moderating boards so I know how to "find" sock-puppets. In one situation we had a "sock" that was running for real, the person had run up thousands of posts with both accounts. The gig was up when he decided to provoke an "argument with himself" the moderators quickly found out the IPs were exactly the same and a quick trace via various means proved that both accounts were originating from the same location. When confronted he confessed to the forum at large and we all had a good laugh over it.

lazlo
01-12-2009, 06:29 PM
I suspect a "sock-puppet" account. Someone created a new login id and is using it to post one-liners.

Rigger isn't someone's "sock-puppet account". He's been a member since January 2006, and I've seen many on-topic posts from him.

John mentioned once in a email a long time ago that he's an ex Special Forces badass working as a civilian contractor in Iraq and Afghanistan. If I remember correctly, John sold him a lathe.

Considering that he lists his home as North Carolina, it doesn't take a rocket-scientist to surmise that he's probably a Blackwater employee. Probably someone you really don't want to piss-off. :)

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 06:30 PM
Fair enough then. Thought I'd toss out the possibility though. :)

mochinist
01-12-2009, 06:38 PM
I've done it a few times myself so I know how it works. I also spend time moderating boards so I know how to "find" sock-puppets. In one situation we had a "sock" that was running for real, the person had run up thousands of posts with both accounts. The gig was up when he decided to provoke an "argument with himself" the moderators quickly found out the IPs were exactly the same and a quick trace via various means proved that both accounts were originating from the same location. When confronted he confessed to the forum at large and we all had a good laugh over it.My buddy had some program that could see their mac address(maybe I'm not a computer guy), he said it was better as most of the amateur trolls/mults/sock-puppets could easily figure out how to change their IP's a number of different ways, I guess the mac thing is harder and usually overlooked???

dan s
01-12-2009, 06:42 PM
My buddy had some program that could see their mac address(maybe I'm not a computer guy), he said it was better as most of the amateur trolls/mults/sock-puppets could easily figure out how to change their IP's a number of different ways, I guess the mac thing is harder and usually overlooked???

Being a moderator on a different forum, I can tell you that most trolls are barely computer literate. The concept of changing ip's or using a epoxy is over their head.

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 06:46 PM
Epoxy is adhesive. You mean proxy.

clutch
01-12-2009, 06:47 PM
You can see a mac address on a local network but not across the internet.

Two posters with the same ip address, while not the case mentioned, could be two different posters behind an ISP that nats the customers. If I didn't pay for a static address, my ISP would nat me.

Clutch

mochinist
01-12-2009, 06:49 PM
You can see a mac address on a local network but not across the internet.

ClutchI said I'm not a computer guy:D although I could have swore thats what he said he could see. I doubt I'll think of it next time I see him but I'll ask if I do.

Doc Nickel
01-12-2009, 06:58 PM
First off, this is the Internet. If you can't stand the feedback you get- no matter what flavor it is- then the best course of action is to not post it in the first place.

Second, as noted above, everyone has an opinion, everyone has a viewpoint. His viewpoint is precisely as valid as yours, yours is exactly equal to his.

Your viewpoints may differ- the Brit likes football, the Yank thinks he's talking about soccer, and so on- but they are equal.

Yes, some people have a better education in some areas than others- but to paraphrase someone famous, we're all stupid, just about different things. But here's the thing- you are not required to follow the other person's advice.

Just because Poster A tells Poster B that the best method to rebabbit his 1926 Mallard Dequacker is to use a surplus M67 "Zippo" flamethrower tank and the lead slavaged from an Americas Cup-winning sailboat, Poster B is under no obligation to actually follow that advice.

The friction comes from Poster B telling Poster A that he's an idiot and probably has extensive genetic problems likely stemming from an unbranched family tree.

Which gets us back to point one: If you can't accept the feedback you get, don't post. Period, full stop.

And no matter what you post, you WILL get contrary feedback. That's the inherent nature of this huge and complex online society. It doesn't matter if you're giving away free wads of $100 bills, no strings attached. Someone will complain, and likely come up with some reason they shouldn't be doing that. If you invent an automatic kitten-petter, someone will complain- either you wasted your time making a machine that wasn't needed, or you're risking the lives of poor defenseless kittens if ever the petter-camwheel broke or something.

Over on PM a few months back, someone posted about a fellow in Michigan who had built a near-perfect replica of a Lamborghini Countach in his basement.

Many posters asked why he 'wasted' so much time making a car he could have bought outright, and one went so far as to suggest the builder was a neglectful father, since he'd clearly spent so much time working on the car that obviously he'd ignored and neglected his family.

So don't worry about the other guy. There's idiots and a**holes everywhere, and the internet is no different. Worry about yourself: If you can't accept the possibility of negative feedback, then don't post. It's as simple as that.

In addition to that, don't automatically assume that anything said about something you did post, is an "attack". When someone says "Hey, I don't think that's the right bearing to use there", chances are he's not saying "You dumba** moron, you've got the wrong goddam bearing in there! What are you, an idiot?!?" so counter-attacking is uncalled for.

Personally, I'm always open to feedback- good or ill. I'm not so conceited to think I know everything, and I'm always glad to hear the advice and opinions of those with more, or more varied, experience than mine.

I may not always follow the offered advice, or I may be unable to due to time constraints, financial issues or a lack of correct tooling, etc. but I don't therefore automatically dismiss said advice as an 'attack'.

So don't worry about the other guy. Mind your own actions first.

Doc.

dp
01-12-2009, 06:58 PM
Fair enough then. Thought I'd toss out the possibility though. :)
An IP address is not quite enough to condemn. I'm posting from my second home this week and everyone in this little town has the same IP as that is what the wireless router on the hilltop has. However - it is a damn good clue.

I don't believe Rigger is a sock puppet - he does seem often to post while angry as does tdmidget and some others. People who post while angry often have hot buttons and are prone to lashing out when that button is pushed. See Rigger's endless attacks on Norm, for examples. It is another case where self-restraint is lacking.

Here's another crazy thing that is easily observed, since we're in a b-session: Those who frequently engage Evan know going in what to expect because they have identified to us what they expect. That being the case they are knowingly pi$$ing in the wind for their own entertainment or they are comfortably inside the definition of insanity: Repeatedly doing the same thing and getting the same results but expecting something different.

I don't agree with everything Evan says, but for reading interest he remains my favorite member of this board for a number of reasons. Where we do disagree I find it is often to do with two valid ways of looking at the same issue, and in any event those times are most often off topic and really don't matter. The shame of it is so many times there is a dog pile on Evan from the gang of 5 (the number is arbitrary but close enough) that lasts through thousands of lines of pointless blather and that tends to render the search engine useless - even the one at Google, when trying to find something of interest he's done. And he's done a great many interesting things in the last few years.

If I were moderating I'd stop a thread when it achieves dog pile characteristics.

Liger Zero
01-12-2009, 07:14 PM
One of the reasons I don't offer to moderate anymore is I find I can't take part in some of the more vigorous discussions without seeming to take sides. Being a moderator on a forum is alot less fun than it seems, especially on high-traffic sites that see a huge cross-section of opinions.

dan s
01-12-2009, 07:59 PM
Being a moderator on a different forum, I can tell you that most trolls are barely computer literate. The concept of changing ip's or using a epoxy is over their head.
:o that's what I get for trying to eat, debug code, and post at the same time.


One of the reasons I don't offer to moderate anymore is I find I can't take part in some of the more vigorous discussions without seeming to take sides. Being a moderator on a forum is alot less fun than it seems, especially on high-traffic sites that see a huge cross-section of opinions.
I hear that....

Evan
01-12-2009, 08:09 PM
addition to that, don't automatically assume that anything said about something you did post, is an "attack". When someone says "Hey, I don't think that's the right bearing to use there", chances are he's not saying "You dumba** moron, you've got the wrong goddam bearing in there! What are you, an idiot?!?" so counter-attacking is uncalled for.


Interesting example. Of course it bears no resemblance to anything that happened here.

plastikosmd
01-12-2009, 08:19 PM
I usually read a thread looking for for the person disagreeing with the OP. I find that is where I learn the most both in the point and counterpoint. Some need more tact, sure...but I never learned anything from a bunch of yes-men.

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 08:19 PM
We keep coming back (understandably I guess) to opinions, my post was not to discourage opinions at all, what broader use could this forum or any forum be with out opinions, what is being referred to are the frequent rude, sarcastic and mean spirited replies.
If I read this post about myself, it would embarrass me and I would take a second look at what I am posting and why, hopefully Rigger reads this and tones down his replies.

Fact is there is nothing I can do about it.

oldtiffie
01-12-2009, 08:45 PM
I don't know what all the kerfuffle is about.

Rigger's way of putting things was pretty typical in many shops and jobs I've had. It was especially so in 40 years with Defense!!

Rigger is direct and no-nonsense. He says what he means and I think he means what he says. Right from the shoulder, no waiting for some-one else to make a start and see if it was safe to go in or if "some-one big" might get upset or growl at them.

Some may not like his language, but I understand it perfectly - any amount of people I know would either identify themselves - or me - if asked who they thought wrote or said it.

I suspect that Rigger says things that others may have wanted to but for what-ever reasons didn't - even if and when they should have.

I suggest that if he doesn't answer here for what-ever reason that some of the complainants do something directly for themselves and either or both PM and email him.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall first when he read that/those message/s, next when he replies and thirdly, at the recipients place when they get and read his replies.

An aspirin, a stiff drink and a good lie down may be well in order in case of attacks of the "Vapours".

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 09:12 PM
"I suggest that if he doesn't answer here for what-ever reason that some of the complainants do something directly for themselves and either or both PM and email him."

Well Oldtiffie
I did do something directly, and Rigger sure seems to have no problem being public with his lack of a civil vocabulary, does he?
Why should I go PM.

Bet he did not speak to his commanders that way, or his boss, bet you didn't either, I know I did not, because he/you/I would not have gotten away with it, the reason the guilty parties get away with it here is that GB does not have the tolerance nor time to teach the guilty parties to be respectful, or be gone. My guess is Rigger is a decent enough guy, probably likable, unfortunate he has so little respect for himself.

Ken

jkilroy
01-12-2009, 09:15 PM
I don't care what the person has to say, they can say it with some manners, plain and simple. People that are asshats when it is possible to be polite, just because they like it, will drive off a lot of posters. The Internet is not a place just for wimps to play bully because they never got over getting whipped by a girl in the third grade.

It only takes the loss of one or two primary posters to kill a board off. Anyone remember Chaski?

This is supposed to be a place for like minded adults to congregate, so start acting like it.

Mcgyver
01-12-2009, 09:18 PM
I don't care what the person has to say, they can say it with some manners, plain and simple. People that are asshats when it is possible to be polite, just because they like it, will drive off a lot of posters. The Internet is not a place just for wimps to play bully because they never got over getting whipped by a girl in the third grade.

It only takes the loss of one or two primary posters to kill a board off. Anyone remember Chaski?

This is supposed to be a place for like minded adults to congregate, so start acting like it.


well said.

except for the Chaski bit. The poster that drove everyone off is still there :D

Evan
01-12-2009, 09:19 PM
Some may not like his language, but I understand it perfectly - any amount of people I know would either identify themselves - or me - if asked who they thought wrote or said it.

I suspect that Rigger says things that others may have wanted to but for what-ever reasons didn't - even if and when they should have.



I could say "That's a load of imbecilic crap". Or, I could say "I disagree, for these reasons" and then give my reasons.

Both tell you I don't agree. There is no excuse for using the former version, I don't care what your occupation may be.

BillH
01-12-2009, 09:28 PM
If I post something that looks like a piece of crap and is total crap, I'd expect you guys to say so. Sugar coating is a weakness of human nature, so is emotion.
Getting praise from some one who is a nasty SOB is a huge compliment, much more so than praise from some one who calls a pile of dung a work of art.

By the way, the table top band saw I have is in fact, a pile of dung.

dan s
01-12-2009, 09:36 PM
The moderation is light here, and we can't do nothing about it, be better if you emailed the staff hit this when you see a post you don't like.
http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/6245/reportid7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Doc Nickel
01-12-2009, 09:37 PM
Interesting example. Of course it bears no resemblance to anything that happened here.

-The first and last sentences in my post are more pointedly aimed, sir. The part you quoted is merely an analogy.

Doc.

Ken_Shea
01-12-2009, 11:13 PM
Doc,
I read your 1st post numerous times, it was so full of you and so full of , I don't know..... wrong, that I refrained from replying.

First it is not "Stupid" it is "ignorant", there is a difference.

Second, I don't know where to start.
Lets start with:
disrespectful - " neither feeling nor showing respect"
Sarcastic - "expressing or expressive of ridicule that wounds"
Offensive - "causing anger or annoyance; "offensive remarks"
Now, those are OK by you or at you, is that correct?
Just your every day accepted manner of speech huh?


Ken

RobbieKnobbie
01-13-2009, 12:21 AM
So the guy's a smartass. So what?

Seems like a lot of people on this forum have been getting really touchy about disagreements and differing points of view. If you start a thread, that doesn't mean that little section of this board belongs to you, and it doesn't mean you have some entitlement to not be offended or wrong about something in it.

Lighten up kids. It's a forum - nothing more. Read it, have fun. If there's something you don't like, IGNORE IT.

Doc Nickel
01-13-2009, 12:25 AM
Doc,
I read your 1st post numerous times, it was so full of you and so full of , I don't know..... wrong, that I refrained from replying.

-So you're saying you have a better way of rebabbiting a 1926 Dequacker...?

Doc.

dp
01-13-2009, 12:43 AM
Rebabbeting Dequackers of any vintage is settled science. Richard Feynman and others debunked the quantum deposition issues regarding babbit migration in 1957, shortly before Dequackers fell out of favor. The lecture series is still available from PBS. You should have gotten the memo, Doc.

As an aside the original babbit bearing from the last Dequacker manufactured, S/N #18 is now a museum piece in Cartagena after it was found being used as a counter weight for a window sash. It was discovered by a grad student from Amsterdam after being briefly filmed in a "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" sequence. This is why we need to support public television.

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 12:44 AM
-So you're saying you have a better way of rebabbiting a 1926 Dequacker...?

Doc.

Yes, now you get it and it is not offensive :D

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 12:53 AM
So the guy's a smartass. So what?
Lighten up kids. It's a forum - nothing more. Read it, have fun. If there's something you don't like, IGNORE IT.


You mean like how you would ignore it if I called you a moron, liar, village idiot, full of ____, Stupid, boring bastard, bigot and more right ???

Yeah, right, get real !




(http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/editpost.php?do=editpost&p=409293)

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 01:22 AM
"I suggest that if he doesn't answer here for what-ever reason that some of the complainants do something directly for themselves and either or both PM and email him."

Well Oldtiffie
I did do something directly, and Rigger sure seems to have no problem being public with his lack of a civil vocabulary, does he?
Why should I go PM.

Bet he did not speak to his commanders that way, or his boss, bet you didn't either, I know I did not, because he/you/I would not have gotten away with it, the reason the guilty parties get away with it here is that GB does not have the tolerance nor time to teach the guilty parties to be respectful, or be gone. My guess is Rigger is a decent enough guy, probably likable, unfortunate he has so little respect for himself.

Ken
Ken,

you might be very surprised.

Depending on the circumstances, it was "Sir" and "Chief" - but not all that often. Usually in company it was "my Nick name" and "Sir". Most times if out of the ear-shot of others - but not always - it was names/nick-names. On occasion it was a close/slam the door, hats off, as equals and "into it". There were some "discussions/interviews" that were with coffee - others without. If it was ceremonial, official, or disciplinary, all the military protocols were observed.

And for what it was worth, it was both as a Chief and as a civilian employee. The esteem of the Navy came first.

Still does.

There are unwritten laws in the Military that serve their purpose very well. Some of the archaic ones have gone by the board - thankfully.

A bit more straight talking a la Rigger - with or without what others may or may not like will do a lot of good.

I certainly don't mind what I say being challenged - or worse - I may well deserve it. So I either respond or wear it. If I am wrong I see no problem at all with admitting it and apologising. If I dig myself into a hole of my own making, its up to me to either get out or stay there. If my head or my ego needs a whack or a puncture or deflating and it gets done and I know I deserved it, its up to me to get up, dust myself off, apologise if needs be and get on with it.

Doc sets a good example.

I've had to issue an unconditional apology to the forum. It was needed, it was the right thing to do at the time and I did it - easy as that.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=295010&postcount=1

I've had no hesitation in admitting I am wrong and apologising either.

Just check out my history for the last 12 months:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/search.php?searchid=240628

I am surprised at it only being 10 as I thought it was more.

And as Rigger is being talked about and not to and that if he does not log on within the next 3 or 4 days, there is a fair chance that he will miss this thread.

He deserves common justice and a chance to answer and respond - or not - as he sees fit to his accusers (Judges? juries? "betters"? peers?) as it appears that he is not able to answer or defend himself at present.

As I've suggested that others might like to PM or email Rigger about this post but have not for their own reasons, I guess its in my court to do the "right thing" - so I will both PM and fax him the link to this thread later in the day to deal with it as he sees fit.

He deserves and has a right to a "fair go".

dockrat
01-13-2009, 01:22 AM
It was discovered by a grad student from Amsterdam after being briefly filmed in a "Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego" sequence. This is why we need to support public television.


This is WAY better than public television :D

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 01:28 AM
This is WAY better than public television :D

Exactly, and we are not hounding you for money :D

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 01:46 AM
"He deserves and has a right to a "fair go"."

Oldtiffie,
If a frequently rude, crude, somewhat vulgar party deserves a "Fair Go" I ask you, what is it that those who are not deserve ??

Justice you say, to me justice would have him sent a warning, perhaps even two, cool it or be banned.

You surprise me, you are old enough to know what is right and what is wrong, yet you uphold, even defend wrong.

I am looking forward to Riggers response.

Perhaps you mis-read me, I do not dislike Riggers at all, I do not know him, what is not liked is his so frequent public insults and slanders towards people he does not even know.

I can tell you that is not going to change on my part, ever.


EDIT:
Almost missed this ":A bit more straight talking a la Rigger - with or without what others may or may not like will do a lot of good"
Funny, I was hoping the same thing for Rigger.




Ken

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 02:14 AM
Ken,

I do NOT defend "wrong" when it is defined and acknowledged as being so. But wrong is as much subjective as right and all too often, depending on the circumstances is all too often lacking in objectivity. Mix emotion in with "right" or "wrong" and you have a potent mix.

Anybody can call me anything he likes (or dislikes??) anywhere, at any time but he should expect that I might exercise my rights - or not - in reply. My response will depend on the context as I see it at the time.

Perhaps many who might shrug off some of the items you refer to and think little or nothing of it but those same people would or might be very distressed at being publicly humiliated and shouted down as is all too often the case here. Some just "take" stuff that in most cases, I, and probably/possibly Rigger too, might take strong exception too and do something about. That abuse of or to some who may not be able to defend themselves may not have a word in it that could not be uttered in any polite company, but the outcome could be devastating to that individual - and a lot more so than just being sworn at.

I have met many so-called upstanding citizens and pillars of society etc. who are "fair and just" people - as in:
- fair *********s; and
- just *******s
(Fill in the blanks/expletitives/naughty words etc. to suit yourself - "pigs" and "swine" are two of the lesser ones I'd use for them).

[Edit]

I just saw this Ken - here is may "take" on it.


EDIT:
Almost missed this ":A bit more straight talking a la Rigger - with or without what others may or may not like will do a lot of good"
Funny, I was hoping the same thing for Rigger.

Odd, I was hoping for it to be a bit more universal instead of some people just being submissive or "taking it" or being "ill at ease" about asserting themselves or their rights.

There is no real rank or seniority attached to numbers of posts or time as a member. Every member has exactly the same rights (and obligations) as any other from "day one" until he leaves the forum. Everybody is a "Member" irrespective of how they may be arbitrarily allocated a rank or seniority based solely on number of posts without - so far as I am aware - any regard for excellence or substance.

Rigger is the same as anyone else in that regard.

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 02:47 AM
OldTiffie,
Call it what you will, I will too, Riggers was talking to people like they are trash, could be you are his friend, that's fine, however, no friend of mine would get by with out a word of rebuke from me if they acted like Riggers, others may be impressed, I was not, don't think I am alone here. Lets me be straight here, Rigger is in my opinion only the example, Riggers is Riggers, doubtful he is going to change, this is not about him as much as it is about his style, it may be silent but there is no majority of acceptance for crude.

"I, and probably/possibly Rigger too, might take strong exception too and do something about"

Now I am being threatened for my opinions, that seems quite hypocritical from some one so eager to stand up for their own.

Hope "he" gets a chance to reply before this gets locked.

Ken

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 03:30 AM
OldTiffie,
Call it what you will, I will too, Riggers was talking to people like they are trash, could be you are his friend, that's fine, however, no friend of mine would get by with out a word of rebuke from me if they acted like Riggers, others may be impressed, I was not, don't think I am alone here. Lets me be straight here, Rigger is in my opinion only the example, Riggers is Riggers, doubtful he is going to change, this is not about him as much as it is about his style, it may be silent but there is no majority of acceptance for crude.

"I, and probably/possibly Rigger too, might take strong exception too and do something about"

Now I am being threatened for my opinions, that seems quite hypocritical from some one so eager to stand up for their own.

Hope "he" gets a chance to reply before this gets locked.

Ken

Well Ken,

first of all, Rigger is not necessarily a friend of mine as I have only "met" him here on the HSM forum as I would guess would be the case with some others

To choose not to ensure that Rigger is "made aware" is to ensure that he may be denied the information you give and so he may be the worse off because of it through no fault of his own.

As I said, I will both PM and email him the link to this thread - as I would do for anyone else in similar circumstances.

You are not being threatened by me - nor need nor should you be as there is no reason to be that I am aware of.

In the paragraph immediately before the one of mine you quote is:

Anybody can call me anything he likes (or dislikes??) anywhere, at any time but he should expect that I might exercise my rights - or not - in reply. My response will depend on the context as I see it at the time.

I have emboldened the relevant sentence which is or is meant to say or infer that any response, if taken, will be measured and proportionate in dealing with the issue for a sensible outcome - in the circumstances. It is or is intended to be and mean that it is a response or reactive action and not necessarily an initiating or proactive action - if it or any action is taken at all.

I have not threatened you - or anyone else.

I have merely said that I may seek or take recourse or redress in keeping with the circumstance as they pertain at the time.

In the general case, you can substitute anybody else for "Rigger" - which while similar is a specific case.

If Rigger were here to deal with this himself or if I knew that he chose not to or that I should "butt out" I would accede to his wishes - same applies to anyone else in similar circumstances.

I do hope you don't feel threatened my me as there is no need to be.

It is important that Rigger, or anyone else in similar circumstances, gets a "fair go" and is able to exercise his rights, choices - and obligations.

If George Bulliss locks this thread - which I hope he does not - I hope that it is deferred until Rigger gets his say - if he elects to have or use it.

Machtool
01-13-2009, 03:46 AM
The following is excerpts from a poster named Rigger,
That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day.

That was a really helpful post Moron

That's all we need on this thread, the village idiot.
That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day.
You are either loosing it, full of sh it, or just milking it for all you can with your 'reports' of secret missions, conspiracies etc.

Smash the stuck record and shoot the boring old bastards ?

There goes another proud animal sacrificed on the alter of bigotry, stupidity and ignorance. Owners need licenses, not animals.

On my initial read of that I had thought that Rigger must be a nasty son of a bitch. Was I the only one that thought Rigger had written all that? It was all presented the same.The one raving on about Morons, Village Idiot’s, Loosing it. Full of ****, Shooting old bastards, Sacrificing animals etc etc. Was that Rigger?

In actual fact the only thing that has set you off is the one, thirteen word sentence located at post number 58 here.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=32510&page=2 (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=32510&page=2)
That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day.
That was the sum total of all he wrote. All the rest, YOU added. Presented with out the quote function or quotation marks, just presented in bold text to make it look like Rigger had said that.


following is excerpts
Very clever I’d take excerpts to mean plural not singular. Yet from all that diatribe presented the same in bold unquoted font. %75 of the insults are from you.. 6 sentences presented out of the total of 8. The other 2 being the repeated wise crack about the plank of wood. Is that such a crime? The guy saw the thousands of hours of work & craftsmanship that went into that build and commented on it. Surely a lynching offence around here


what is being referred to are the frequent rude, sarcastic and mean spirited replies.
Riggers was talking to people like they are trash
Here’s his entire body of work in contributing to this forum.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/search.php?searchid=240633 (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/search.php?searchid=240633)

Would you care to point out the “frequent, rude & sarcastic” and those multiple of people that he has been talking trash too, contained within those 37 posts. I just spent more than an hour reading all of them. I failed to find any such reference. Perhaps you could enlighten us further?

Good grief Charlie Brown
Phil.

Circlip
01-13-2009, 04:45 AM
At least three of the sentences were aimed nay blasted at one member who now no longer choses to post Phil, and were posted as an attack rather than a friendly rebuke. We don't live in an ideal world and on other forums universal policemen have critisized MY vehemence on safety issues, and my delivery, but I've never lowered the tone to race, creed, colour, legitamacy or mental capability of another member.

Regards Ian

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 05:16 AM
I cannot for the life of me see what is or was objectionable about "Riggers" quote:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/search.php?searchid=240633

ie "That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day." in the context of the really excellent universal machine of "Jackary"s (Allan) that was posted in a separate thread was a real compliment where I come from. In the vernacular here the equivalent is "Its sure better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick". I can well imagine that there are other similar sayings in other parts of the world.

Asking if anyone knew what it meant might have been a good start and avoided a lot of grief.

As regards the quoted items regarding another member here who has not posted in a while, it will suffice to say that others have seen fit to pass remarks that were not much worse, if any, than those attributed to Rigger.

As an Ex-Serviceman and as a Veteran, I can well appreciate why those remarks might have been made. They - Rigger's and others of similar ilk - were neither complained of at the time by others nor the "target" who was well able and willing to speak for himself. It was - and is - all part of the everyday "rough and tumble".

Peter N
01-13-2009, 05:33 AM
At least three of the sentences were aimed nay blasted at one member who now no longer choses to post Phil, and were posted as an attack rather than a friendly rebuke.
Regards Ian

If thats the particular incident I'm thinking about, then it was quite probably deserved, and the person it was directed at has never been short of a bit of vitriol and bull**** himself.

Peter

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 05:44 AM
I tried to advise Rigger of this thread both by PM and email but was refused as he has chosen to receive neither.

I will "book-mark" this thread and as soon as I see him posting again I will let him know of it.

A read of his previous posts over the last 12 months is most instructive - particularly so if they are read in context and with all of the threads.

The search link is:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/search.php?searchid=240742

Rigger might come out of this as pure as the driven snow - but I think that some others may not. The stuff they may well be sinking in is just as "squishy" and far from white.

It is known here as "Being in $hitters ditch".

Trust me - I know as I almost(??) have permanent residency there.

Evan
01-13-2009, 06:37 AM
ie "That machine of Alan's is better than a plank of wood any day." in the context of the really excellent universal machine of "Jackary"s (Allan) that was posted in a separate thread was a real compliment where I come from. In the vernacular here the equivalent is "Its sure better than a poke in the eye with a sharp stick". I can well imagine that there are other similar sayings in other parts of the world.



Tiiffie, the plank of wood rigger refers to is in my lathe. It was a comparison to my lathe build.

I will say that I am not even slightly offended by that comment. To each his own when it comes to opinions about what they like or dislike.

dp
01-13-2009, 06:43 AM
On my initial read of that I had thought that Rigger must be a nasty son of a bitch. Was I the only one that thought Rigger had written all that? It was all presented the same.The one raving on about Morons, Village Idiotís, Loosing it. Full of ****, Shooting old bastards, Sacrificing animals etc etc. Was that Rigger?

Yes it was. Every one of them.

dp
01-13-2009, 06:47 AM
As an Ex-Serviceman and as a Veteran, I can well appreciate why those remarks might have been made. They - Rigger's and others of similar ilk - were neither complained of at the time by others nor the "target" who was well able and willing to speak for himself. It was - and is - all part of the everyday "rough and tumble".

When Rigger inferred that David Coffer was a bigot there was a response defending David.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?p=246869#post246869

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 07:09 AM
Thanks Evan and Dennis for the "heads up". Neither Evan nor Doc seems upset. I daresay that if either saw a need to take it further they would have or will - their choice.

My objection here was that someone (Rigger) was potentially well on the way to being lynched or "rail-roaded" on the say-so of one member.

So far as I can see, Rigger hasn't done much if anything wrong in the contexts of the so-called offending or offensive quotes attributed to and made by him.

In my opinion, the "non-posting member" led with his glass jaw and Rigger hit him. That non-posting member seems to have spent a lot of time in the company of past and serving members of a Defence Force and so should have both anticipated and known how to deal with a typical response from another. I'd have reacted the same way.

dp
01-13-2009, 07:25 AM
Thanks Evan and Dennis for the "heads up". Neither Evan nor Doc seems upset. I daresay that if either saw a need to take it further they would have or will - their choice.

That does not make the offending remarks less offending to the larger audience. Personal attacks are not made appropriate because the target of the attack chooses not to confront the offender publicly or at all. Personal attacks are never appropriate regardless of the context before, during, and after.

John Stevenson
01-13-2009, 07:47 AM
Ken has posted a lit of Riggers replies / post as a list.

Has anyone gone back to see where these one liners fit in the original posts ?

Listing them out of context so it it looks like one big diatribe is wrong.

I just went back over his list of posts and was hard pressed to find some of these, most of his posts were regular replies and in a couple he went to the defence of Teenage Machinist when Norman was attacking TM for his lack of knowledge, Jesus he's only 15 !!

The ones I did find were in context with the posts even if they were a bit sharp.

Bguns
01-13-2009, 07:55 AM
Young'uns :)

Old'uns ;)

Smart'uns :)

And

Not so Smart'uns :)

But if you are Serious... try here..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakers%27_Corner

oldtiffie
01-13-2009, 07:57 AM
Well Dennis,
as we have moved on from "Offender" and "targets" to "third and interested other offended parties", I suggest that instead of telling me - which I appreciate but about which I neither can nor will nor intend to take any action about, that after Rigger logs on that you all take your turn and have at him directly.

I'd guess that if such action is not taken that the affected parties, for their own reasons, elected not to proceed when the opportunity presented itself.

I'd guess too that Rigger is well able to look after and acquit himself - when he has had a chance to log on and read this thread.

I shall be a very interested observer.

ptjw7uk
01-13-2009, 09:30 AM
I think some people are missing the point of a forum it is supposed to help by passing on information and ideas but it is a bit like casting in that evry know and then you end up with dross.
I mean Evan's techey John is erudite and Torker is always willing to give it a go.
Not that I could teach granny to suck eggs but I like the board even with all its problems, any I dont like I just pass over and hope for better to come.
On the plus side there is the things we never see over here as in Torkers seemingly never ending snow shifting, me I think the most snow I have seen is about 4" that goes in about 4 days although the problems it creates seem to last for ever, we even have the phenomenon of 'the wrong type of snow' which affects our railways( something todo with the wrong snow plough).

So lets all calm down and get back to Engineering, Please!

Peter

Ken_Shea
01-13-2009, 10:22 AM
"Would you care to point out the “frequent, rude & sarcastic” and those multiple of people that he has been talking trash too, contained within those 37 posts. I just spent more than an hour reading all of them. I failed to find any such reference. Perhaps you could enlighten us further?"

Phil,
Frequent - I call 7 out of 37 frequent.
Reread post#1- If that is not rude, offensive and sarcastic, what is it.
Multiple - More then 1

Those type of replies are out of place here. There are people here with thousands of replies and never a single reply such as those listed, is that because they did not want to?, doubtful, it was because they were respectful enough of others and knew this forum is not the place.

Now I am tired of typing Riggers name, this is not about him, it is about the nature of his replies, they are not needed, my post subject was not "We don't need Rigger on this forum".


John, listed out of context ?????, they stand as "THE" context.
It is also understandable having seen some of your own use of very unnecessary four letter words that you might be defensive. Now if I am wrong on that my apologies as I did not go a searching your post , Too many or I would have :D

What I am saying is these type of post does not make for a bad guy, just that a public forum is not the place for it.

I do not know what else to say, some agree here, henceforth to be known as the "right" and some here do not, henceforth to be known as the "wrong" :D

Ken

dan s
01-13-2009, 11:07 AM
Ken has posted a lit of Riggers replies / post as a list.

Has anyone gone back to see where these one liners fit in the original posts ?

Listing them out of context so it it looks like one big diatribe is wrong.
OUT OF CONTEXT.....

I read the original post right after he posted it, as I was online monitoring a running simulation. Riggers' post was exactly what was posted above.

The reason why his post linked to above is different now, is most likely because George went back and edited it. It is also possible the reason why Rigger isn't posting is because he's been banned or on probation.

George Bulliss
01-13-2009, 11:47 AM
I think that we have beaten this subject to death and it is time to move on. As you may have deduced, I am willing to let a fair amount of argument continue. Things typically work themselves out in time and we are all adults here (mostly).

I will not tolerate those who chime in simply to make a personal attack and I have deleted a few posts since Saturday. I am sure that those people know who they are and I will add that the second time I need to delete their posts I will be deleting them as well.

I have had a few calls to clean house and remove those responsible for the flame wars this weekend (yes, I was watching) although I saw no reason to get that heavy handed. Iím not saying that I made the right call, but I chose to allow some venting. The rest of the forum was busier than usual with on topic subjects and seemed to be doing fine. Remember, there is always the option to not read a thread.

George