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Alistair Hosie
01-13-2009, 12:35 PM
Norm wrote to me today I am afraid he is dwelling on the situation with him not being a soldier in the second world war the letters 4 of them were pretty much rambling and going everywhere to assure me he was indeed a soldier to threatening me with all sorts of nasty things anyway ,If it helps Norm I post this It never was my intention to hurt you .

I still say the figures don't add up I am sure you were a soldier but what does it matter when please come back as we all miss your posts there was as said in your mail you have cut yourself off from the website ehere that is not a good idea I have always liked you as a person and wish you would come back war or no war.
Ialso say You are a thoroughly decent man and it is not my intention you dwell on these things 24 7 it's not worth the agony .I am sure if you come back people here would be glad as I too would your just over dwelling on things.I am sure you were indeed a soldier as I never doubted it and a good one too please accept my humble apologies if I ahev caused you long term pain that was not my intention put these things behiond you I know you are an elderly gentleman with history to be proud of and you live with your memories it was never my intention to take away your memories I said then as I say now either come back or stop the ranting I am mot in the mood for various reasons for your constant threats of one kind or another either in your emails to me or otherwise do what your going to do if it easies your discomfort.Please move on old friend and come back.genuine kindest regards Alistair

Mark McGrath
01-13-2009, 12:40 PM
Alistair,
the man wrote to you privately.Do you really think you should be publishing what he said on the web?

Mark.

Alistair Hosie
01-13-2009, 12:44 PM
No mark he wrote to me and asked me to apologies here and thats what I did.Alistair

torker
01-13-2009, 01:04 PM
That's something that sticks in my craw a bit here.
I notice some of the younger guys saying some pretty nasty stuff to ol' Norm.
He's old for Christsake...leave him be.
So what if his bloody "numbers" don't add up. I've known that for some time.
I never felt the need to rag on him about it in public.

I also know that Norm is very generous with his time and does indeed know a thing or two about cutter/grinders. He sent me piles of info and told me a lot of things to watch out for if I ever built one.
Let him be old in peace. I'm bettin my mind will be a bit cloudy at that age...if I ever make it that far.
Russ

lazlo
01-13-2009, 01:11 PM
I miss Norm, and wish he would come back. I tried sending him an email, but he's got PM's and emails blocked.

He's a little crazy, but everyone here is a little crazy, some more than others :)

Fasttrack
01-13-2009, 02:00 PM
That's something that sticks in my craw a bit here.
I notice some of the younger guys saying some pretty nasty stuff to ol' Norm.
He's old for Christsake...leave him be.
So what if his bloody "numbers" don't add up. I've known that for some time.
I never felt the need to rag on him about it in public.

I also know that Norm is very generous with his time and does indeed know a thing or two about cutter/grinders. He sent me piles of info and told me a lot of things to watch out for if I ever built one.
Let him be old in peace. I'm bettin my mind will be a bit cloudy at that age...if I ever make it that far.
Russ

My feeling as well. I must have missed the thread where he got bashed, but I hope he comes back.

philbur
01-13-2009, 02:47 PM
Iíve known Norm from a number of forums over a number of years and could say much in his defence, itís not necessary, Norm is a unique and interesting character that deserves the appropriate respect for his advancing years. Personally I thought that he handled Rigger with a dignity and restraint that Rigger would do well to note.:o

I guess Rigger is young and full of piss and vinegar. One day, when he crosses that invisible line somewhere between the ages of 40 and 50, he will realise that that old fart ahead of him is where he will be shortly. I hope he gets better treatment. Iím not sure he has yet earned the right.

Norm, hang on in there and keep those posts coming.:)

Regards
Phil

PS: I wonder what Rigger will tell his grandchildren about his truck driving days in Iraq.;)

dp
01-13-2009, 03:01 PM
PS: I wonder what Rigger will tell his grandchildren about his truck driving days in Iraq.;)

It may sound like he is describing Col. Flagg from the old MASH series. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Flagg and I mean that in a nice way.

mochinist
01-13-2009, 03:15 PM
That's something that sticks in my craw a bit here.
I notice some of the younger guys saying some pretty nasty stuff to ol' Norm.
He's old for Christsake...leave him be.
So what if his bloody "numbers" don't add up. I've known that for some time.
I never felt the need to rag on him about it in public.

I also know that Norm is very generous with his time and does indeed know a thing or two about cutter/grinders. He sent me piles of info and told me a lot of things to watch out for if I ever built one.
Let him be old in peace. I'm bettin my mind will be a bit cloudy at that age...if I ever make it that far.
RussHey I'm sure some of the older guys have said nasty stuff too:mad:



Who is norm?

Mcgyver
01-13-2009, 03:23 PM
what Russ said.

torker
01-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Hey I'm sure some of the older guys have said nasty stuff too:mad:



Who is norm?
mo...I meant younger than Norm. (aviemoron)

mochinist
01-13-2009, 03:35 PM
mo...I meant younger than Norm. (aviemoron)ok I recognize that name, thx:cool:

Alistair Hosie
01-13-2009, 04:04 PM
Look I repeat myslf I like norm too and I have asked him to come back but I'm really too tired for threats and mind games I don't wish him anything but good luck and seriously do hope he stops what he's doing and come back this is all abit silly and he needn't have ostracised ghimself from this comunity why should he not come ba maybe I was a bit rough on him but I got problems too and don't want constant emails and crap from Norm .so just come back and forget the past.All I said whicjh is obvious is you were not a soldier during the second world war and you have also now agreed with that.I will however not be subject to any threats or crap over this Alistair

lazlo
01-13-2009, 04:26 PM
I just got a nice email from Norm. He's doing well, but still waiting for the biopsy results from the tumor they removed on his back. Sounds similar to what Lane had.

Here's a snippet from his email, I think Norm would be OK with me posting:


"I did get a surprise the other day. Guy from Edinburgh in Scotland wrote.
He'd bought a Clarkson on my say so and we swapped ideas.

No tearing each others throats- just two nice people swapping stories and ideas.

Out there, this is how people behave to one another."

I end up in London once in awhile for technical conferences -- I'd love to meet Norm, Peter, John, Alistair et al in person. I wish we could all get together over a pint -- based on the meetings I've been fortunate enough to have with several of the members here, there'd be a whole lot less acrimony if we had some quality face-time :D

Phil: could you send me your email address by PM? Norm wanted to contact you, but can't find your email addy.

Your Old Dog
01-13-2009, 04:29 PM
You hit it on the head Torker, he was kind enough to send me many pages on the grinder business too. I admire his wit, I envy him his command of the English Language and appreciate that he has shared it all with us for some many years. Yesterday was just that, yesterday. Today is a fresh start and we go on don't dwell on what we can no longer change.

Norman, get your a$$ back here and color up the forum for us you old goat :D

Alistair Hosie
01-13-2009, 04:35 PM
exactly come back you old goat:D we miss you Alistair

BillH
01-13-2009, 08:26 PM
May his hack job be worth it.
Norm would get it, Hackworth? Valve motion on a steam locomotive...
Yeh...
Well I think all this touchy feely emotional crap is just that. There is far more serious things in life to be worrying about, like friends and family, health, and the pursuit of happiness.

Teenage_Machinist
01-13-2009, 08:35 PM
Dont mean to stir the pot but he was being sort of weird to me and seemed to get mad whenever I asked about grinders. Could not understand.

lazlo
01-13-2009, 08:48 PM
I think Norm's point was that you posted a bunch of threads about building a machinist vice, couldn't get the material, then jumped to designing a linear bearing tool and cutter grinder.

Walk before you run and all that :)

Your Old Dog
01-13-2009, 10:17 PM
Dont mean to stir the pot but he was being sort of weird to me and seemed to get mad whenever I asked about grinders. Could not understand.

You weren't around long enough to know him and, no disrespect here but not old enough to know how guys change with the ravages of time. At your age right now your body is telling you (or should be) that you are invincible and have the world at your feet. Body chemicals change over the years and you start to lament that you aren't what you once were and it's tougher for some then others. Cause and effect. When you witness odd behavior you have to wonder what was the cause that created it. Overbearing people from families that thought they could do no wrong and timid people from families that never thought they did anything right.

lazlo
01-13-2009, 10:25 PM
Geez YOD, I'm 42 and that's depressing as Hell. ;)

dp
01-13-2009, 10:31 PM
Geez YOD, I'm 42 and that's depressing as Hell. ;)

Krickey - you're just a kid. I'm surprised they let you post in the adult section here :)

I just ticked over 63 on the first. I'm Portland Oregon's first baby boomer.

BadDog
01-13-2009, 11:01 PM
I'm the same age as Robert, 43 in a few days.

Sadly, I'm already feeling the "ravages of time", or perhaps more appropriately, the cost of a "miss-spent youth". Be careful! Your body may be telling you that you are invincible, but it lies! If you survive the stupidity of youth, you'll pay in spades as you get older. I've got artificial joints, reattached limbs, and several pounds of surgical steel along with (relatively minor) missing body parts and bones. <sigh>

Gotta go...

Where's my cane woman!!!

dan s
01-13-2009, 11:12 PM
29 here. My father told me I'll be an old man soon.

My come back....
If I'm going to be old, your going to be ancient. :D:D

DFMiller
01-13-2009, 11:17 PM
Norm,
I would hope you come back.
I always enjoy your perspective.
Dave

dp
01-13-2009, 11:18 PM
29 here. My father told me I'll be an old man soon.

My come back....
If I'm going to be old, your going to be ancient. :D:D

Doesn't seem that long ago I was racing motorcycles and listening to Led Zeppelin on LP's. And I was invincible! Especially on race day.

Too many broken bones, beers, and time have piled up on me. The heart attack didn't help! Of all things I've lost I miss my mind the most :)

john hobdeclipe
01-13-2009, 11:25 PM
Geez YOD, I'm 42 and that's depressing as Hell. ;)

Cripes Amighty, if you're depressed at 42, you'll be on some heavy duty meds by the time you grow up!!

gunbuilder
01-13-2009, 11:59 PM
Come back, we miss you.

The forum isn't the same without you.

I hope I didn't say the wrong things to you, I can get pretty gruff if I don't watch out.

Thanks,
Paul

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 12:21 AM
Dont mean to stir the pot but he was being sort of weird to me and seemed to get mad whenever I asked about grinders. Could not understand.

TM, I admire your integrity, grit and spirit for putting your hand and your head up as you have in these circumstances.

You are older, wiser and braver beyond your years.

You set a cracking pace on the learning curve and are well into it - by any measure.

Some of your questions and suggestions have given me good cause to raise my eye-brows and ask them of myself. Some of the frank answers I got from myself lifted me from my complacency more than somewhat - congratulations and thanks.

There is no prescribed gradings or syllabi here nor is there any type or rate of "progress" - just keep going at your own pace and be honest to/with yourself - as you are doing - and you will do fine.

As a member here you have exactly the same privileges and obligations as any other. There is neither rank nor seniority. You do not need to defer to anybody nor do you need to be patronised or "kept in your place". Your own good sense should see to that.

A newer more youthful perspective will be very welcome.

Any questions, suggestions or need to ask or post anything - just "blaze away" and "go for it".

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 12:31 AM
Norm (aviemoron),

I hope that all is well with you and that you can see your way clear to putting in an appearance here again - ASAP!!.

We all have a lot to give and learn on the HSM forum - even the older ones of us - you and I included.

A SITREP (situation report) as regards your progress and well-being will be appreciated.

As said elsewhere ".................... (the) wealth is but the guinea stamp, the man himself the gold ..................".

You are valued and appreciated.

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by lazlo
Geez YOD, I'm 42 and that's depressing as Hell.


Cripes Amighty, if you're depressed at 42, you'll be on some heavy duty meds by the time you grow up!!

I'd be more concerned about being depressed than my age - at any age.

The "actuarial age" here (for retirement benefits cum pension requirement funding etc.) is about 84>86 - so you are "all but" on the down-hill run!!!

Just before my 45th. birthday I was told that on my 45th. I was one day closer to 60 than I was to 30, to which my response was "$hit - 30 was yesterday" to which the teller told me "Well, in that case, 60 is tomorrow". I don't recall any birthday from and including 45 to 60 - all I wanted to do was to get to 60 and see how I was going and what I had (and had not) achieved and what I still had on my plate (to do). It was a "mixed blessing" when I got to 60 - not bad at all really. Now all I want to do is to get to 80. Probably 90+ after that.

I hope you don't choke on your "meds" - heavy-duty included - as "meds" here (or was) was the generic name for womens tampons!!! I nearly choked just thinking of your taking your "medicine".

Just be thankful that you have got to where you have as well as you have - others have not or may not. Life's there to live - live it.

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 01:02 AM
Norm wrote to me today I am afraid he is dwelling on the situation with him not being a soldier in the second world war the letters 4 of them were pretty much rambling and going everywhere to assure me he was indeed a soldier to threatening me with all sorts of nasty things anyway ,If it helps Norm I post this It never was my intention to hurt you .

I still say the figures don't add up I am sure you were a soldier but what does it matter when please come back as we all miss your posts there was as said in your mail you have cut yourself off from the website ehere that is not a good idea I have always liked you as a person and wish you would come back war or no war.
Ialso say You are a thoroughly decent man and it is not my intention you dwell on these things 24 7 it's not worth the agony .I am sure if you come back people here would be glad as I too would your just over dwelling on things.I am sure you were indeed a soldier as I never doubted it and a good one too please accept my humble apologies if I ahev caused you long term pain that was not my intention put these things behiond you I know you are an elderly gentleman with history to be proud of and you live with your memories it was never my intention to take away your memories I said then as I say now either come back or stop the ranting I am mot in the mood for various reasons for your constant threats of one kind or another either in your emails to me or otherwise do what your going to do if it easies your discomfort.Please move on old friend and come back.genuine kindest regards Alistair

Alistair,

I truly do take my hat off to you for doing what your conscience said to do. It would have been all to easy to have not done it.

I hope I have "read between the lines" correctly here. I am sure enough that I have. It was a difficult moral and ethical dilemma that must have caused you considerable soul-searching.

In my opinion, you carried it off with great dignity and aplomb - no easy feat in those circumstances.

Thank you.

Alistair Hosie
01-14-2009, 04:45 AM
As I said it's in the past I would not feel well about myself in fact I don't that Norm is still worrying over this everyday I had long since forgotten about it,who knows he's a decent guy and I genuinely do hope he can come back soon and take up his rightful place war or no war.I do think he might be a bit muddled with the passing of time.And for that reason it is easy for hime to come back.If it makes it easier for you Norm we all make mistakes hell knows I make them all the time.It may well be I misubnderstood you and you meant after ww2 all the time if this is so again I am sorry but I dont dislike you one bit and thats definitely true.On the other hand there is little point you continuing to send me reams of information I have been on morphine for 14 years or so and am too tired to even read all the studff you send keep it simple and I am happy to pjhone you or you phone me you will make your self ill if you carry on worrying like this.I am sorry I ever mentioned it truly and I feel responsible for your unhappiness therfore I also dont feel good about it and hardly slept a wink last night .kindest regards Alistair

John Stevenson
01-14-2009, 05:22 AM
I'm possibly one of the few people who have met Norman, either two or three times in fact.

He even brought me a bottle of red wine to one of the shows but I don't hold that against him :D

All I can say is Norman in the flesh is a far different person to Norman on the net. face to face he's nice charming guy but I have also had emails from him threatening legal action.
I just put it down to the fact when meeting people you can inter-relate, being stuck in front of a monitor on your own gives one a sense of isolation. I think it applies to a lot of members here to a greater and lesser extent. I've also had recent emails from Norman that echo what Alistair has said, I tend to let things like this slide as I'm sure what a meeting would clear a lot of things up. I may ring him later if i can find the number, not sure if I have it.

.

speedy
01-14-2009, 05:40 AM
Norm, some people are worth the bother and some are not.

This is from an email I sent to my 'brother' Pete

I have been a bit upset over the past couple of days. My good mate past away on Sunday morning. He was found on the floor of his kitchen by his wife when she returned from her market stall at midday.

He was one of the few people that I genuinely have time for. He lived three houses down the road. He was a straight shooting old bastard (78) who took no **** and didn’t utter the stuff either.

He left home when he was 12, worked a short while then worked his way around the globe with the merchant navy. Saw action in a couple of wars- got shot up bad in the last. Rode, raced and built bikes especially his 350 BSA’s. He was a gold prospector, a plumber and drainlayer, self taught engineer. One of the old school.

When we returned from the beach on Sunday I had intended going down to his place to see how he was and a chin wag as I knew his health was not too good. It had been that way for some years but he was a tough old bastard, a fighter. Instead I lazed about at home. See, another example that we should not hesitate to contact good friends whenever the thought arises because we may not get another opportunity.

I went to see him at the funeral directors before the service. It upset me so much that I returned home and did not attend the service. I went to his home later to reminisce with his mates and family.

It was a small gathering as his instructions were that people were to be informed after he was cremated but word had got out too those close enough.

There you go, I’m a sook.

Norm, I haven't met you face to face. Just through PM and this site, plus a few private emails. Norman you are worth the bother.

Circlip
01-14-2009, 05:48 AM
Just as an observation, Why do we have the PM function??

Regards Ian :confused: :rolleyes:

speedy
01-14-2009, 05:59 AM
Circlip, I have sent you a PM.

Circlip
01-14-2009, 06:11 AM
Thanks Ken, Have reciprocated and I hardly felt a thing :D

Regards Ian.

bollie7
01-14-2009, 06:15 AM
I hope you don't choke on your "meds" - heavy-duty included - as "meds" here (or was) was the generic name for womens tampons!!! I nearly choked just thinking of your taking your "medicine".


oldtiffie
That gave me a laugh. heres another. If in the USA, don't ask a girl if you can borrow her thongs. LOL

bollie7

chief
01-14-2009, 06:23 AM
I have known also that Norm's number don't add up, that being said, time catches up with you and many old people start to feel guilty, they can lie to others but they can't lie to themselves and this starts to play on their minds.
I don't know what Norm's problem is but when I was a kid I knew a guy who told big WW2 stories, I found out from my father he spent the war in the shipyard as a cvilian and lied about a bad back to avoid the draft.
Norm trust me I can tell you from personal experince, you didn't miss anything by not being in a war. In the real thing there isn't any background music and people don't get up after the firefight scene.

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 06:25 AM
We sent our old PM to Washington and that old PM got a "gong" - so did the Brit ex-PM.

The Brit's old PM is in the Middle East or somewhere and the NZ ex-PM has disappeared out of sight and we don't know where ours is either.

I think that another function of PM's is to balance AM's.

But back to what Circlip may have had in mind, I think that sometimes there is nearly as much (more??) traffic on topics (and other people?) via PM and email than there is on tpopics on the "public face" aka HSM BBS.

I (too) wonder about that.

speedy
01-14-2009, 06:29 AM
Thanks Ken, Have reciprocated and I hardly felt a thing :D
Regards Ian.

Ian, you're obviously a hard nut:D
I have sent you another; they do get easier don't they? Many thanks:)

All the best,
Ken

speedy
01-14-2009, 06:38 AM
We sent our old PM to Washington and that old PM got a "gong" - so did the Brit ex-PM.
The Brit's old PM is in the Middle East or somewhere and the NZ ex-PM has disappeared out of sight and we don't know where ours is either.
I think that another function of PM's is to balance AM's.
But back to what Circlip may have had in mind, I think that sometimes there is nearly as much (more??) traffic on topics (and other people?) via PM and email than there is on tpopics on the "public face" aka HSM BBS.
I (too) wonder about that.

I just saw Tony and your ex at the George Bush invasion awards. Tony appeared to still be at Georges beck and call in a slightly embarrassed way.
Aunty Helen is possibly seeking a senior diplomatic position in the UN.
I prefer my rock on the FM and the National broadcast on the AM any time on the AM or PM.

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 07:27 AM
I was quite taken aback with your reference to our ex-PM as "your ex". There is a limit - even for an OZ ex-sailor. I'd NEVER refer to your ex as your ex.

Perhaps we should have clocked them Ken. Perhaps we need a "Bundy" - no NOT the "clock type"
http://www.timeclocks.com.au/

- the real stuff we are in urgent need of copious quantities of:
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/09/08/1094530694493.html?from=storylhs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundaberg_Rum

Rustybolt
01-14-2009, 07:38 AM
What Russ said.




I'm 57. People say I'm getting crankyer as I get older. That's not it. I just find I enjoy annoying people a lot more now. Especially younger people.

Circlip
01-14-2009, 07:53 AM
And it gets even better as you get older RB :) One (??) of my pet hates is that youf thinks NOISE is good. I'm then accused of shouting, to get heard over the cocophony ?? How does that work??

Regards Ian

Alistair Hosie
01-14-2009, 07:59 AM
I would be prepared to talk to him John he's very bitter that i exposed him here on this site so I don't know that it will achieve anything but I am prepared to do what I can.I can tell you what you say is true he called me a few years ago when he had a run in with someone here on this site and asked me to get involved in a macabre plot to overthrow the guy he had it all worked out.And was not pleased with me that I wouldn't get involved with his scheme at that time .Norm can be very vindictive when his mind is at it.But never the less if he is overdwelling on this war thing it is not fair on him either and I feel somehow respknsible I don't know what is best to do so I'll do what I can, if he's prepared to listen to reason Alistair

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 07:59 AM
I sure do wish that this thread had started recently before another recent one was started let alone locked. I expect that some things may have been seen in an entirely different light.

If I'd have received those quite improper and menacing emails they'd have been sent to VP poste haste for necessary further action. I was not impressed when I considered what may have happened if the recipients/addressee's family had seen them as there is no being certain that only the addressee sees or opens email. It appears to not be altogether isolated or infrequent.

To be fair, I have absolutely no idea of why they were sent nor any back-ground that may relate to them.

oldtiffie
01-14-2009, 08:31 AM
Alistair.

Your last post and mine were sent at the same time.

I am appalled that you should get this sort of stuff irrespective of your condition, but all the more so because of it.

You should neither be put "in harms way" or menaced in this manner by anybody - let alone here, nor, I would hope, any place else either.

If it were me in your place I would put or refer the matter to appropriate "others" for necessary action.

Asquith
01-14-2009, 08:45 AM
I didn't want to get involved in this, but fair's fair, and I have to say that, throughout his oft-stated reminiscences, I don't recall Norman claiming that he was in the forces during the war. I certainly don't recall him ever saying he was in the army.

I haven't read everything he's ever posted, but if I remember rightly, he was in the RAF just after the end of the war, while during the war he would have suffered the privations experienced by all those living in UK cities subject to bombing, and may well have helped out with the civil defence activities before he was old enough to join up.

Mark McGrath
01-14-2009, 09:49 AM
I feel that Norman is being treated extremely unfairly here.This is internet and unless Norman has posted to the net or individuals all the things he`s supposed to have said they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Another thing,he`s an old man with possibly not a lot of years left,his mind may wander at times,he`s not in the best of health,what I do know is,he has served in the forces which is probably a lot more than some of his detractors have done.He has never failed to help anyone with information or advice when asked and he`s being destroyed by one old guy who we don`t know a lot about either.Is there no one here who has exagerated their standing a bit on the internet where no one knows them?
Some of you should hang your head in shame.


Mark McGrath (real name)

Alistair Hosie
01-14-2009, 10:45 AM
Mark if your referring to me I am well known here and at 57 am not or don't consider myself old. And judge for yourself but I have made it clear I am not out to destroy anyone thats just wrong of you Mark.I do think in being fair all round Norm has to accept some responsibility for his own actions just as we all should.My understanding and I think most here that for anumber of years Norm has been almost daily telling us he was an airman or sodier during ww2.IOf that is not so I will publically apologise, but you miss one thing whether he has a right to write privately to anyone making aggresive demands or threats old or not. If he reads this as said I am not able to read reams of nonsense and bullying stuff etc nor do I want to he sends me and after a few lines it all gets permanently deleted.So if you have an issue you want to discuss with me Norm I am more than happy to get you back here where I think you are happiest Norm but keep posts civil and without demands.Alistair

Mark McGrath
01-14-2009, 11:37 AM
Alistair,you are well known on here as a name that posts.The majority of people on here have never met you and therefore have no means of judging character etc.As I said already I do not see your point in trying to destroy an old man.
An old man who could be judged to have imparted more engineering knowledge and information than you may have,although I believe you may have done some engineering at night school.

Alistair Hosie
01-14-2009, 12:15 PM
I am not trying to destroy anyone mark you are wrong!Also my knowledge of engineering has very little to do with the siruation in hand I e Norm.I certainly will do all I can within reason to try to get Norm back if he wants to.And have no wish to cause him any harm or anxiety.Alistair

Limy Sami
01-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Norm is? ......... well Norm, it's the way he is, and out of sheer decentcy shouldn't be denigrated for it, even less by those who've no idea of what he or any other's may or may not have lived through.

Bringing private letters or conversations in to the public domain, even worse when it's done in the hope of scoring points in a minor spat, is simply beyond the pale.

FWIW I've been fortunate enough to come across a good few Norms over the years and without exception have found a gem or two worth listening to in every one of them.

I turn 54 in a few months and although still young compared to many I have like others, my problems, but I will say yes;- getting old's a bitch.

I was raised to respect my elders, this I still do as is right and proper, while on the other hand I feel it's only fair to give the occasional youngster a verbal clip round the ear.

This affair must be brought to a swift conclusion and should not be repeated.

Thank you for your time.

Take care.

Limy Sami. ( not my real name - for personal reasons)

lazlo
01-14-2009, 02:54 PM
Bringing private letters or conversations in to the public domain, even worse when it's done in the hope of scoring points in a minor spat, is simply beyond the pale.

Sami, if you're referring to me, I had Norm's blessing on that snippet I posted. Just thought that it would explain how Norm is feeling, and why he's reluctant to return.

Alistair Hosie
01-14-2009, 03:09 PM
You are incorrect Sami Norm asked me to discuss it here in his own words discuss it among yourselves so you are just guessing and making derogetory statements I am not scoring points but then you don't know us or Norm do you.Alistair

speedy
01-14-2009, 03:21 PM
I was quite taken aback with your reference to our ex-PM as "your ex". There is a limit - even for an OZ ex-sailor. I'd NEVER refer to your ex as your ex.

It was the collective adjective.
However, please accept my sincerest apologies for your misinterpretation Mick :D ;

Dawai
01-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Norm is a Mason.
They do good for people of all colour. I got a buddy locally who joined about two years back, he became so engrossed with it he has went a lil bit insane.
Sometimes when you are thrust into something and you make it your life work, be it machining or Masonic work you get a lil untouched to reality. I can say when you get older, I am 51, I can no longer kick door ways on the top, stand a put a foot on the fridge, nor stand on the motorcycle seat going 80.. it hurts me deeply. Even my brain no longer functions like it did. I have the past and what little bit I have left in the cup.

Norms military Past should be rejoiced, but no more so than my grampa who died for building Liberty ships. NOR my Father who got sent to god knowes where by the military, nor my Uncle who got sent into the heart of Germany to fight our cousins. I touted this once and fell upon disfavor. I have never been into the military, I had medical disallowment. I tried to enlist "AFTER" Vietnam. I have done plenty of good things thou even I am not a Mason or a veteran.
What gets me the most is the people who brag the most have done the least. Lots of soldiers I know are a lil quiet and crazy. I am not saying that about NORM, but generally the people here I know.

Alistair is a good man too. WE had a disagreement on how to deal with thieves the community sponsors like feeding "feral cats". I did have one, now I got many. That is Thieves and Feral cats. I know not how to deal with them now.

Norm has a funny way of talking, So does Alistair and JohnS, Kinda foreign to a Georgia boy. You have to really listen so you can understand what they are saying. Not quite as bad as a Southern black boy or a New York Jew, but different from My momma and papa.. A Ocean apart, raised differently with different morals and teachings. I was bullied by blacks, whites, and the few Indians because I was small build and dirt poor growing up. I looked over my 12 year old child's shoulder to see her doing the same thing to others on the internet and near lost my mind. Truly Cruel people, I near hate with a bug instilled by my upraising. I have to restrain my true hatred, it is wrong. They are just trying as kids to establish a pecking order and their place in it. I see that now. but.. It took years.

To really understand someone, Emotional Intonations in their speech, knowing the subject and what they are trying to say, The wording they say, What they meant to say due to poor communication. On the internet you can't really communicate completely. It takes a third personal perspective.

I can say something really mean and my dog will squat and get behind something. Even though what I said was nice words. That is the animal aura you present if your emotions are mean. There again I have farted rather loudly making him run from the room in terror too..

Alistair, I feel all this has been a similar expelling of gas.

The Brits, Aussies have stood with our country Recently while others turned tail and ran because it became unpopular. I have more paitience with them than some other nationalities for sure. (lets all bomb France) If you remember, I wanted to Hang Micheal Jackson too thou.

If you were all a lil bit younger I'd suggest a goat roast and a keg of beer to settle the differences.

May god bless and keep all of you, my friends.. May god curse all our enemies.

Limy Sami
01-14-2009, 03:27 PM
To whom it may concern.

If you read my post again you will see I simply made a statement - defined by a seperate paragraph, making niether accusation nor mentioning names.

Knowing the HSM board? although my post count is low, for well over a year I have looked in most days at least once and contribute when I feel I've something to add.

As for knowing Norm, unfortunately we have never met, but have corresponded,- dare I say duelled? both on other fora and personally, without as far as I know the slightest hint of malice.

John Stevenson
01-14-2009, 03:35 PM
The Brits, Aussies have stood with our country Recently while others turned tail and ran because it became unpopular. I have more paitience with them than some other nationalities for sure. (lets all bomb France) If you remember, I wanted to Hang Micheal Jackson too thou.



What about sending him to France? Michael Jackson that is not Norm ?

.

Dawai
01-14-2009, 03:51 PM
John: I thought the prince of Arabia had took him on as a companion? Micheal Jackson, not Norm that is.. With all the bodywork he,she has had done on it's face I am sure he will need plenty of maintenance work in his life.. He is my age.. Micheal J, not Norm.. Norm is a quite a bit older.

A black muslim aqquaintance said Micheal Jackson is a credit for the "white race".. He also asked me why I was mad OJ got turned loose, he killed a dope dealing jew boy and a race mixing white woman.. he then laughed like a madman. No, I didn't agree with the wording or the intent, nor the intonations.

Norm moved over there to france because it was cheap? See.. I am cheap too.. I looked into Mexico and thought about it for a minute.. Then I moved to North Gawgia here where we got possums and woodpeckers that tap on your plastic siding at 8am.. I been shooting at a endangered species all morning..

George Bulliss
01-14-2009, 04:34 PM
I think we have covered the Norm subject about as much as we can without Norm here to chime in. Norm is still a member of the board and will respond if he cares to.

I would imagine that watching a discussion of yourself may not be as fun as it sounds. Lets drop this and allow Norm to post, or not, as he wishes.

I certainly do not condone personal attacks on anyone on this board by other members and if there is ever anything I could do in such a situation to help, let me know.

George

Norman Atkinson
01-15-2009, 04:53 AM
As Laslo and quite a few of you know, I am far from well.
I've had an eye op. and a cancerous growth to remove and in a few hours or so, I will be again out of action as the other peeper is due for attention. There are a lot of other boring events which are about. If one is lucky, one makes over 78 and medically, one becomes 'a bit exposed' to the gaze of all and sundry. Heigh Ho!

For better or worse, I was foolish enough to list more of what other people had done and qualified it with my links.
In history one either blethers about what someone has written or heard and more and more distortions occur.

The story is- and it can be verified and verified- is that I like many thousands of British people became bound up in a war that started on Sunday 3rd September 1939 at 11AM GMT. It was only a few hours later when the first casualities came. A German U-Boat picked on a a soft, unarmed ocean liner which was packed with fleeing women and childre- to the bottom of the sea.

It wasn't a war where soldiers with guns and bayonets battled it out and the one who killed the most won.

Alastair, that is the classical definition of a war. This became a People's War. For you in the US, your war started with an aerial attack on on ships and men which were perfectly capable of fighting back.

Two totally different scenarios but roughly the same war.

The British version has been called the Peoples War.
I was in that war as hundreds of thousands of people who are well into their 60,s 70's and 80's will testify.
Did, Norman Atkinson get tied up in bombings and machine gunnings? Well, there are published records of 'what was pretty damned close' which is better than the remark about 'hands in pockets and f*** all to do'

You whoever you are, ask what their place was- and expect a very rude answer!

So let's turn to 'soldier', 2 years after the War in Europe ended and the US had bombed or exterminated women and children in Japan and we had done rather poorly in Dresden and Hamburg, there was the start of another war.
It was in Malaya. There was the Berlin and the USSR invading Eastern Europe, there was Korea and - well, it hasn't really stopped. Wars, conflicts whatever next? Somewhere, somehow, I got rifle but I was never a 'soldier' but I got-------a War Pension award. In fact, I got two.

As I said, 'go figure'

Return to HSM? I'd rather have the Germans.
At least, I knew where I stood

Norman

speedy
01-15-2009, 07:02 AM
That is right, keep your strength for the more important battles Norman.
Kind thoughts and bet wishes to you and yours.

Your Old Dog
01-15-2009, 07:41 AM
......................Return to HSM? I'd rather have the Germans. At least, I knew where I stood
Norman

Norman you have a lot of friends on the board but unfortunately you are only seeing or dwelling on the other guys. I hope you won't carry this business to your last breaths, too much good to reflect on. My father was on Prednizone to give him strength but it also gave him a side effect called "fight or flight" and it kept him worked up when he should have been calming down for his trip East. Wish you all the best old friend and hope to see you on the board. Tomorrow is another day.

Ray.

RPM
01-15-2009, 02:09 PM
Norm, it's good to hear from you at last, I've missed your humour, your dreadful misuse of English, and your technical contributions...

Don't expect anyone who wasn't there, in the UK in WWII, or who lived in the UK afterwards, to understand that you were fighting in a war, even as a civilian. During the months of the Blitz, you were less likely to get killed if you were in the British Army!

You did your service, with honour, so stand tall, or at least as tall as your new back wound allows, and say "F&*^% 'em".

We've all had a chance to think about what happened, and I'm sure you'll get a lot more support now, as it's not a crime to be getting on in years :-)

Welcome back, and I'm sure we all wish you well with your health, and of course, with 'Matron'...

Richard (Brit) in Los Angeles

John Stevenson
01-15-2009, 03:17 PM
Norm, it's good to hear from you at last, I've missed your humour, your dreadful misuse of English, .

Richard (Brit) in Los Angeles

Good heavens man that wasn't a misuse of English THAT was a classical education :D :D

.

FatWheels
01-15-2009, 07:01 PM
Hear hear Sir John,

I've never had the temerity to address Norm or so many of the other brits and UK folks whom I admire and respect. I certainly include Alistair here as well. I am amazed and humbled by Norm's use of the language. I can't get maybe half of the sense of it as an american but what I can understand I appreciate.


Leaving aside the technical aspects of Norm's acumen, his double and treble entendres are like little puzzles to solve. Lot's of fun that has been missing here for too long, come back Norm. Makes me sad to think you might ride off toward the horizon like Shane.


It seems clear to me that to a man everyone here is glad to hear from you and wishes you well. I certainly am fond of my elders and betters as I lost my old dear mentor some years ago and know now how much a difference gents such as yourself can make in a young man's life. The same could be said to many of the generous folks here. I guess the people here are not virtual strangers, but rather virtual family and friends. That's what I can see from where I sit.

God bless and much respect,

Jim

Alistair Hosie
01-15-2009, 07:11 PM
Fro what it's worth Norm I hope you come back too thesre's no need to stay away I hope you get well soon too and for what it's also worth I can't understand Norn all the time either:D sorry Norm just a joke Alistair

oil mac
01-15-2009, 07:24 PM
We will be thinking of you with your health issues Norm, dont get down hearted, The forum needs all the members it can get, We missed you,
Damn! i am getting all sentimental, We dont have a lot of Scottish members on the forum, Come to think on it was it only a year ago we all mastered the English language north of Hadrians Wall? :D

John Stevenson
01-15-2009, 07:46 PM
We dont have a lot of Scottish members on the forum, Come to think on it was it only a year ago we all mastered the English language north of Hadrians Wall? :D

Best thing that was ever built. Rumour has it that a Scotsman and an Englishman were granted one wish each.

The Scotsman wanted a 50 foot wall building all round Scotland to keep the English out.

When the Englishman was asked what his wish was he just said
"Fill it with water "...........
.

Norman Atkinson
01-16-2009, 06:02 AM
A wall 50 foot high???? Humm, John, you don't know how near the truth that you got.

Actually the wall was not one but TWO and the most northern one was made out of sods. I suppose that that should be enough 'double entendre' for one posting.

The other wall had 'a vallum' which was a huge ditch about 50 foot deep which extended all the wall from the North Sea to the Irish Sea- but the water kept running out!

It was built, I have it on good authority, by the French.

And 'classical education' or not, I refuse to find an answer.
Well, I can just! The Roman Forts on the wall and built by the French had flush toilets.

Pity that the French never took the idea back home.

Norm

Circlip
01-16-2009, 07:39 AM
Good to read your surealistic ramblings again Norm, - from another sod.

Regards Ian.

malbenbut
01-16-2009, 07:51 AM
Apparently the Romans employed a great many local inhabitants and learnt them many skills which included reading and writing.When the Roman Empire collapsed the Romans stayed in the north east of present day England and Southern Scotland and became the intellectual centre of the British Isle and was so even after the Vikings invaded Britain.The last Roman legion was stationed on the wall [where the water ran out] which was on the east 50+ miles from the present Scotish border
Alas this all ended when the Normans took over England. Present day Scotland became a different country which never existed before the Norman invasion.
The Normans originally came from North West Europe. so really Britain was full of Vikings.
MBB
PS Norms a Norman

old-biker-uk
01-16-2009, 09:29 AM
Apparently the Romans employed a great many local inhabitants and learnt them many skills which included reading and writing.
But apart from that, what did the Romans ever do for us?

Mark

Norman Atkinson
01-16-2009, 09:30 AM
I have to confess that education actually came to Malcom and me far earlier than the Roman lot that 'came across the Channel, all dressed up in tin and flannel'

On what is the border(now) of Scotland and England are - more Old Goats.
The place is the Hen or Hell Hole on Cheviot which is a sort of granitic plug of some 2674 feet and out of this hole- where lots of children were murdered( seriously) there is a stream called the College Burn. If I have got it right- and I usually do, there was a druidical college long before the daft Romans and the other Normans and did their thing.

So what happened with these ancient druids- one has to sort of guess.
Did they sacrifice young maidens that happened to be cavorting or was it just the sheep( there are lots of the non inflating variety) and the little town is actually called Wooler or what, one has to imagine.

One thing is that it is still a fascinating bit of Border. Where can you find a whisky still- still? Where can you find a B-17 bomber which mysteriously rises and falls in the peat hags( not Pete Hags) as the rain lashes in? Where can you find a sheep dog that got awarded a medal for bravery. 'Sheila' the Border collie had pups and they live- or their offspring live on in the US.

Somewhere in an forgotten bit of untidy drawer is a warden's badge of Northumberland National Park; somewhere else is the shoulder flash of the Norwegian Mountain Rescue( there is a connection) but there are people who replaced us oldies who as Circlip wisely remarks- 'rambled' but in more ways than one in that strange forbiding place.

Norman

I'll let someone else sling(?) at Mark but does 'Four foot, eight and half inches' mean anything???

Circlip
01-16-2009, 09:42 AM
Ahh the cart track saga, also reputed to be the "Standard" rail gauge preceeder. Romans were also supposed to give us central heating and the self flushing toilets ( Referr to Lord Dibnah's architectural tour ) but they probably nicked the toilet designs from the Greeks.

Regards Ian.

NickH
01-16-2009, 10:10 AM
But apart from that, what did the Romans ever do for us?

Mark

Sanitation, rule of law, viniculture?

malbenbut
01-16-2009, 10:30 AM
Originally Posted by old-biker-uk
But apart from that, what did the Romans ever do for us?

See the Life of Brian [Monty Python] and all is made clear.
MBB

oil mac
01-16-2009, 11:17 AM
You can keep your greasy Romans! I am part Maclachlan, as far as i can gather it means Viking When the first viking ships landed and the wee Pictish wifie was breaking her back doing all the work, and the husband was lying drunk on heather ale, She would look at the big guy with the helmet adorned with horns, and i can guess there would be no contest!:cool:

Give me that part of heaven which cant be beaten, Perthshire, and i would also take Argyle & up the West coast.


My hearts in the highlands
My heart its not here
My hearts in the highlands a chasing the deer
Chasing the wild deer and following the roe
My hearts in the highlands wherever i go.

old-biker-uk
01-16-2009, 04:35 PM
To quote Reg (of the People's Front of Judea and not the Judean People's Front)
"All right, but apart from the sanitation, the medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, a fresh water system, and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?"

Of course, this was here before they came.....
http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/remark/pages/Temp/images/cartoon.jpg

Mark
BTW would this be considered a hijacked thread ?

Alistair Hosie
01-16-2009, 05:41 PM
Dan does that make you related to para handy?? :DAlistair

boslab
01-17-2009, 02:38 AM
somthing that always puzzled me, the romans discover concrete, build coloseum etc then forget how to do it? odd or what
mark

dp
01-17-2009, 03:21 AM
The Normans originally came from North West Europe. so really Britain was full of Vikings.
MBB
PS Norms a Norman

Explains the bad teeth.

Norman Atkinson
01-17-2009, 04:34 AM
Boslab,
Concrete? But the Romans DID! I'm glad that we actually have return to a form of engineering even if it goes back over the ages.

The Roman Wall- Hadrian's one stretched from Wallsend near Newcastle to Carlisle and Solway Moss on the Irish Sea side and it was built of stone and cemented in.It is still there today although huge chunks were taken as building material for the subsequent farms in the area. My home plot is, I believe a bit later as Anglo Saxon. Where the Tyne was bridged and the Swing Bridge was built retained the old bog oak foundations until then.
Not theory or guess work but a long dead mentor of mine framed his pictures with some of the stuff pulled out. Again, I have been to 'Roman' France and
Arles and Nimes and Pont du Gard and stuff has lasted -well, a damned sight longer than in the film 'Get Carter' where the car park( part of my pension fund) has concrete cancer and is currently being pulled down.

Maybe I missed the light hearted remarks but my wife's great uncle 'built' the best bits of Newcastle. There are 'best bits' so have look at the John Dobson's stuff.

I have been to Rome and did a 'first dive ' on a Roman galley that probably St Paul was shipwrecked in.

Seriously, I am far more into earlier stuff like the Bronze and Stone Ages but within yards of my home in Spain there is a wealth of Roman stuff. You know the word 'ballistics' comes from Baleares and the Romans employing the stone throwers!

I apologise but there is no intention to teach people to suck eggs, it is fascinating stuff to investigate.

Enough of 'me',
Para Handy- and the history of the Clyde 'puffers' that plied their wares up and down the West coast of Scotland. Well, Mark McG, Dan or Alastair. The unique history is being lost.

Yes??????

N

And Dennis- teeth????? Where was fluoridisation discovered? Actually, it was Durham University's Dental School in Newcastle.

lazlo
01-17-2009, 09:21 AM
somthing that always puzzled me, the romans discover concrete, build coloseum etc then forget how to do it?

The Dark Ages. The Roman empire imploded at the same time Attila was driving hordes of primitive Germanic barbarians (Saxons, Francs, Vandals, Goths, Visi-Goths) into Europe and the British isles (Rome fell in 476 AD).

So not only did we lose 575 years of technological advancement until the Renaissance, but we also had to re-discover a lot of the Greek, Roman, and Persian science and technology.

Mark McGrath
01-17-2009, 09:26 AM
You got it right Lazlo.The English are actually German immigrants.

oldtiffie
01-17-2009, 09:34 AM
Lazlo,

I'll let you into a secret.

Everything prior (that is going to be the start of a bad pun) to the Dark Ages was written in Latin and kept in the Monasteries (by the Prior?), but those bl**dy Chinese got in and re-wrote it all in their version - in "Chinglish" - and scrapped the Latin stuff. And we are still trying to decipher that Chinglish script. I don't know whether they missed the Dead Sea Scrolls or not - hard to tell.

They got hold of the irony of it all, melted it down, and exported it to the US - hence the term "Old American Iron(y)".

lazlo
01-17-2009, 09:43 AM
but those bl**dy Chinese got in and re-wrote it all in their version - in "Chinglish" - and scrapped the Latin stuff. And we are still trying to decipher that Chinglish script.

That's true Mick -- the Greeks bought the Antithykera mechanism at the predecessor of Harbor Freight. The instructions engraved on the back are actually Chinglish, not Greek. And it stopped working after a year so they threw it overboard :D

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/frc_front_parap_spec.jpg

John Stevenson
01-17-2009, 09:43 AM
You got it right Lazlo.The English are actually German immigrants.

Mein Gott !!!:eek:

oldtiffie
01-17-2009, 09:59 AM
Lazlo,

where in the he*l didja find that? - it's one of my good plans - in my Cyrillic script. Couldn't read it myself and as it was a script I took it to my local Pharmacy (here) ("Drug-Store" in the US?) and asked for it to be "made up" and got told to (use your imagination here).

Harbour Freight pre-dated the Dark Ages (and kept 'em!!) as all stuff that is transported by sea is by definition, "Harbour Freight" at both ends of the trip at least.

In the OZ Navy, money was "freight", which we saved for when we were next in harbour - hence "Harbour Freight" which we used on a "run ashore". I will l leave what we bought to your imagination.

dp
01-17-2009, 12:57 PM
And Dennis- teeth????? Where was fluoridisation discovered? Actually, it was Durham University's Dental School in Newcastle.

When the Nordic hordes showed up one day on the River Thames they brought with them their large jaws and teeth. The subsequent interbreeding led to malocclusion in the long narrow faces of the indigent population that persists to this day.

It has been suggested that this led to the British preference for soft foods such as porridges, pot pies, stews, and anything boiled all the day long.

Somewhere around here I have a picture of my wife where she has sat herself on Hadrian's wall near Carlisle. She thought seeing the wall and all the history it represents as a high point in her tour of England. The greatest enjoyment was when her singing group was presented live on the BBC from Edinburgh Castle.

Norman Atkinson
01-17-2009, 02:06 PM
Talk amongst yourselves but Dennis needs an answer.

Firstly, I am delighted about your wife's interest in the Roman Wall and looking from say Housesteads is something unforgettable.

Howver, the teeth business and decay is odd. It was actually discovered that those living in Newcastle had bad teeth whilst the kids in South Shields on the other side had near perfect teeth. The root(ouch!) ccause was where the tap water came from was either deficient in fluoride or sufficient in the stuff.

It was all discovered in the Dental School in Newcastle and my wife was there at the time. When she became District Dental Officer for Gateshead which is opposite Newcastle, she introduced fluoride into the drinking water.
Of course, fluoride is now commonplace but that's where it all started up here.

It seems even odder that John Dobson- afore mentioned- brought fresh drinking water to the new streets in Newcastle and literally eradicated waterborne diseases on one side of the River Tyne whilst my wife eradicated tooth decay on the other side- later, of course!

That's the history, whether it is in the book or not, who cares?

Delightedly,

Norman

lazlo
01-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Somewhere around here I have a picture of my wife where she has sat herself on Hadrian's wall near Carlisle. She thought seeing the wall and all the history it represents as a high point in her tour of England.

Yeah, but the funny part about that Dennis is that the Romans built Hadrian's wall to keep the Picts and Celts out of the rest of Britain :D

Norman Atkinson
01-17-2009, 02:46 PM
Robert,
What a load of old cod's wallop
Sorry!

The old Goat

oil mac
01-17-2009, 02:49 PM
"Och Now Alistair, I would be thinking that , yon master mariner of the seven seas would be not far away from being my relation," (Figuratively of course), as my gr. gr. grandfather hailed from the spiritual city Cambeltown, which boasted of having until about the second world war period more whisky distilleries than any other town, And my gr.gr.grandfather was a seafaring man , My fathers old uncles were ships firemen, as was father at one time, The old Para Handy types were extremely robust seafarers as tough & dependable as their little ships, with their most nicely finished compound steam engines, I was lucky to be working around the last of the steam fleet of island vessels when i worked in Greenock which were still plying their trade to the Western Isles of Scotland After they became motor vessels the romance of these ships died
About three miles from my house at present, is the remains of a Roman bath-house, which had undergfloor heating systems, this was one of the little Roman fortifications, And my town has many names of streets etc going back to this period, names such as Citadel Place , Chesters Crescent Hadrians Way, Cornelius Street, Roman Road,Antonine way etc, Old traditions die hard

lazlo
01-17-2009, 03:03 PM
Robert,
What a load of old cod's wallop

Oh, come on Norm -- that was too easy :)

dp
01-17-2009, 03:15 PM
Yeah, but the funny part about that Dennis is that the Romans built Hadrian's wall to keep the Picts and Celts out of the rest of Britain :D
At any point in time in the history of that far place whomever had the greatest army sought to keep the rest out. Given the certainty that human life did not evolve (originate - surely they have evolved some since) in the area, everyone there was from somewhere else.

The wall was more an economic barrier than a military barrier - it was well known that the Picts were selling machinery to the Druids at less than cost, and the quality was less than what the Saxons were producing. Nobody was buying from Rome because it was all metric, so the wall was necessary.

Timleech
01-17-2009, 03:28 PM
The old Para Handy types were extremely robust seafarers as tough & dependable as their little ships, with their most nicely finished compound steam engines, I was lucky to be working around the last of the steam fleet of island vessels when i worked in Greenock which were still plying their trade to the Western Isles of Scotland After they became motor vessels the romance of these ships died


I've nothing else to contribute to this thread, other than that I spent four years as engineer ("MacPhail!") on a Clyde Puffer in the early 1980s.
It wasn't the real job, we were carrying human cargo, holiday trips around mostly the Firth of Clyde and the Caledonian canal with the odd foray around some of the Islands.

Tim

lazlo
01-17-2009, 03:38 PM
The wall was more an economic barrier than a military barrier - it was well known that the Picts were selling machinery to the Druids at less than cost, and the quality was less than what the Saxons were producing. Nobody was buying from Rome because it was all metric, so the wall was necessary.

LOL Dennis! I had to read that a couple of times to get it :)

Norman Atkinson
01-17-2009, 03:48 PM
Ye Gods!

Tim- you were carrying 'human cargo'

Does Liz know about this?

I mean Rape and Pillage is OK but a bit tiring.

Exits- Robert- to the Border Ballad.

And Dennis- a bit tiring going from Edinburgh to the Wall on a Metric Foot
Oops- it's a cool 100 miles and then some

Norm

malbenbut
01-17-2009, 03:57 PM
If Hadrians Wall was built to keep the Scotts out why is there so many Roman buildimgs in Scotland.
MBB

Peter N
01-17-2009, 04:02 PM
If Hadrians Wall was built to keep the Scotts out why is there so many Roman buildimgs in Scotland.
MBB

Cos' they nicked em? :D

dp
01-17-2009, 04:23 PM
Mind the western shore, lads, they're back!

http://www.ecstewart.com/blog-p/cats/vkittens.html

Alistair Hosie
01-17-2009, 05:08 PM
Doesnt Robert plant work on the vital spark witgh Norm and John ???Alistair

lazlo
01-17-2009, 05:13 PM
Cos' they nicked em? :D

Oh man, that's bad Peter! :)

Timleech
01-17-2009, 05:31 PM
Ye Gods!

Tim- you were carrying 'human cargo'

Does Liz know about this?

Norm

Yes ;)

She came with me when I went back for 10 days to stand in for the then engineer in 1990, with our son who was then very small.
I'll see if I can dig out a picture of 'my' engine tomorrow.

Tim

clutch
01-17-2009, 06:27 PM
I'm not sure what all took place and I really don't care. I like Norms posts. Hope he sticks around.

I hope Evan and his spanner tossing protagonist sticks around too. Winter seems to be a time to be a bit bitchy.

Clutch

oldtiffie
01-17-2009, 07:01 PM
Yep - right Clutch.

Some here are quite gauled (Gallic?).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaul

I was told once - quite "straight-faced" too he was - that as is the case of all races - (that) they are essentially derived from and/or still are:
- a race of bastards;
- a bastard race;
- perhaps both; and
- rarely if ever neither.

"Why?" said I.

"'coz at one time or another they have all either f**ked themselves or each other or anything and everything else".

2 troo - its still happening - with no signs of it stopping.

Them that troo are "troosers" and them that's not have have not got any troosers (or don't wear 'em) and are a disgrace - and very rude!!

Seems pretty right to me.

boslab
01-17-2009, 08:24 PM
If Hadrians Wall was built to keep the Scotts out why is there so many Roman buildimgs in Scotland.
MBB
and theres me thinking it was really built by the clan leaders to keep the scotts in, we down south couldent manage a wall we got a dyke.....offers
no wonder no one talks about it, liked get carter, the music stuck in my head, was it roy kinnear who got chucked of the multi story car park, also the train journey was good
imprisoned in darkest Wales by a big dyke, wishing we had a wall too
mark

oldtiffie
01-17-2009, 09:41 PM
Mark,

as an ex-sailor, I was very intersted in your post about being imprisoned by a "big dyke".

What sort of dyke was (is??) it? - here's a list to start with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke

aboard_epsilon
01-17-2009, 10:00 PM
Mark,

as an ex-sailor, I was very intersted in your post about being imprisoned by a "big dyke".

What sort of dyke was (is??) it? - here's a list to start with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke

That'll be Offas Dyke ..starts right here in Prestatyn

http://www.offasdyke.demon.co.uk/dyke.htm

all the best.markj

dp
01-17-2009, 10:32 PM
Interesting thing, that. You've got An Bhreatain Bheag and other unreadable things on the one side, England on the other. That was a lot of digging to settle that boundary. Somehow it was done entirely without Monty Python.

oldtiffie
01-18-2009, 01:05 AM
Dennis,
don't tweak those Taffies - they are all related to "Men of Harlech" - as I've had good reason to remember!!.

Here's the music - if you are ex-military, I will defy you to keep your toes from tapping or your feet from picking up the marching beat - fabulous!! I've seen very strong men brought to tears with the usic and lyrics of "Men of Harlech" - and not just Welshmen.

Sorry about poor sound toward the end - but great otherwise

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjvKZHJeayg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lU6ZPHx_avg&feature=related

Here's the history and the lyrics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Harlech

Its hard to beat a Welsh choir or an Eisteddfod too.

John Stevenson
01-18-2009, 07:59 AM
Mark,

as an ex-sailor, I was very intersted in your post about being imprisoned by a "big dyke".

What sort of dyke was (is??) it? - here's a list to start with.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyke

Dykes are aright but you wouldn't want to stick your finger in one...

oldtiffie
01-18-2009, 08:07 AM
Dykes are aright but you wouldn't want to stick your finger in one...

I wouldn't want to put my anything in which while nothing is my everything of something.

oil mac
01-18-2009, 08:25 AM
Most interested to read of your standing in as Chief engineer on a puffer Tim, in one of those things, a strong & robust constitution to withstand sea sickness is more important than a chiefs certificate, Like the sound of "human cargo" hmmmmmm ! were they nice looking? Put me down for six only, Cash on delivery, as long as they are returnable if not satisfied, must be female. Oops politically correct police will pay me a visit.: :eek:
I am thinking you would be working on Old Reekie out of Oban, Nice old ship, built in Goole, with a Crabtree of Great Yarmouth engines, Ex Admirality, victualing & supply tender 1939-45 war, Possibly last of her kind

Sadly by the time you got your sea legs in this type of vessel, all the old Clyde built puffers of the traditional pattern were gone, They all had either Mckie & Baxter of Govan,( later Paisley) or Fisher of Paisley compound condensing engines, The early ones were non condensing the steam puffed up the chimney hence the name puffers, Apparently many of the realy early ships had open bridge arrangement, imagine the cold on that on a storm in the Minches

Timleech
01-18-2009, 09:23 AM
Most interested to read of your standing in as Chief engineer on a puffer Tim, in one of those things, a strong & robust constitution to withstand sea sickness is more important than a chiefs certificate, Like the sound of "human cargo" hmmmmmm ! were they nice looking? Put me down for six only, Cash on delivery, as long as they are returnable if not satisfied, must be female. Oops politically correct police will pay me a visit.: :eek:
I am thinking you would be working on Old Reekie out of Oban, Nice old ship, built in Goole, with a Crabtree of Great Yarmouth engines, Ex Admirality, victualing & supply tender 1939-45 war, Possibly last of her kind

Sadly by the time you got your sea legs in this type of vessel, all the old Clyde built puffers of the traditional pattern were gone, They all had either Mckie & Baxter of Govan,( later Paisley) or Fisher of Paisley compound condensing engines, The early ones were non condensing the steam puffed up the chimney hence the name puffers, Apparently many of the realy early ships had open bridge arrangement, imagine the cold on that on a storm in the Minches

Yes I had it soft compared with the 'real' puffer crews, especially on the older vessels.
I was working on the VIC32, also with a Crabtree engine, whereas Auld Reekie was VIC27. I did have a trip on the VIC27 some years prior to working on the VIC32, when she was based on the West Coast for a youth organisation called something like the 'Land, Sea & Air Youth Club' (!), we helped return her from Oban to winter quarters in Inverness.

Here's 'my' engine, I've got better pictures somewhere but the Engine Room is very cramped (it's also the Boiler Room!) so it's impossible to get far enough away for really good pics.
The 'Engineer' was also Grease Monkey and Stoker.

http://home.btconnect.com/duttondock/images/Engine/Crabtree-1.jpg


http://home.btconnect.com/duttondock/images/Engine/Crabtree-2.jpg

Some background on Clyde Puffers for those who don't know what the h*ll we're on about:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clyde_puffer

Tim

oil mac
01-18-2009, 10:04 AM
Excellent Tim,
Yes i liked the photograph of your engines, definately a Crabtree, with its low pressure steamchest to the front of the engine to cut down fore & aft space, allow engine to be placed nearer rear bulckhead, and more importantly, allow access to valve chest, I remember a man and son set up in Greenock who transported gravel and sand, the owner was horribly scalded in the engine room, and shortly after he i believe gave up that trade and died soon after
The Glenlight company had very nicely kept ships named after lights -Moonlight, Starlight Glenlight, Sealight Etc.
Other coastal vessels were owned by Gardiner of Clyde St. in Glasgow, they were Wester Scotland ships, but bigger than the puffers. & transported stone from their western isle quarry

Norman Atkinson
01-18-2009, 10:30 AM
Sorry but this is Circlip Country with a famous brass band called
'Black Dyke Mills'

Which I understand had to change its name whilst on tour in the US.

I presume there are more ways of going out for a blowing one's trumpet or licking a cornet.

<Hasn't this turned rather odd? We could have had Roman Candles and things that go off with a really big bang. Nowt to do with us Brits, merely the ability to find another way to score.>

Cheers

Norm

Circlip
01-18-2009, 12:48 PM
Just up't road Norm lad, John Fosters famous mill, the building is still there but now sadly the textiles are imported back from India (From whence we nicked the manufacturing trade in times of yore) and latterly the Chinese.

Those dark satanics are now cleaned and subdivided into smaller traders from whom one can purchase beds that you need a lifebelt to navigate and the plastic industry's best to make a polycarbonate roofed winter shed.

Gone but not fergotten.

Regards Ian.

Mark McGrath
01-18-2009, 03:34 PM
Oil Mac,we chartered Gardiner ships to run our tankers into Portavadie when Mr Marples was busy throwing £12,000,000 into a hole in the ground.We ran out of Ardrossan to the beach at Portavadie where you dropped the loading door, anchored a D9 on to the first lorry and dragged it of the boat and up the beach to the batching plant.These tankers were each carrying 60 ton of Blue Circles finest.Yes we were running overweight but only from Irvine.We did that for several months suffering horrendous damage to the tankers and units until we fitted a 200ton jumbo tanker into the hold of one of there boats.That worked fine for several months until a discharge hose uncoupled itself while blowing the load off.Our attendant on site who should have been supervising was busy with some other matter involving female camp staff.The blower engine eventually choked itself,but not before blowing about 160 ton into the side of the hold.The boat was lying at about 45 degrees and had to be towed back to Ardrossan harbour where we emptied the hold of cement using two pails and the ships Hiab.Took sixteen hours one very miserable Sunday.

Alistair Hosie
01-18-2009, 03:50 PM
Does anyone know the story of the sugar boat visible from my window still on it's side after many years I believe it went aground in a storm and tipped over.I never understood why the navy did not blow it up as its a danger to shipping in that busyish sttretch of water thanks for good memories Dan (oil Mac) I could just see you as the engineer on the fital spark :D just kidding laddie hope you are keeping well after your opertaion Alistair

Norman Atkinson
01-18-2009, 04:10 PM
MV Captayannis?

Not only a ROC uniform in blue grey but a reefer with BLACK buttons.

N

dp
01-18-2009, 04:45 PM
The story of the ship is here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captayannis

and there's a google map of it linked there as well. That is in one of my favorite locations for geological interest. The geography of the area indicates massive glacial scouring and the near split running northeast from Oban to Inverness and which Loch Ness forms a part is intriguing. Possibly when sea levels were higher that may have been filled by the sea making an island or nearly so of the north west end.

Norman Atkinson
01-18-2009, 05:04 PM
Ok, I've done a bit of diving and a quite a bit of 'messing about with boats'

However, I am well aware of the Great Glen and Loch Ness and such.

'Aviemoron' or more accurately Aviemore is immediately south of this and over the Monadliaths Mountains.
If you look carefully, you will see that the immense glaciated valley known as the Lairig Ghru runs from Aviemore- and the Spey Valley through to Royal Deeside and Big Ears Palace ie Balmoral. Again, we have the Roche Moutonee- or striated rocks similar to those in the Jaws of Borrowdale in the English Lake District.

Just to hark back to your visit to the Roman Wall, that was on basalt which runs in a huge geological fault from the Roman Wall( where you were) and right across to the North Sea North of Newcastle and coming out at Holy Island(Lindisfarne), the Farne Islands and Cullernose Point south of Craster as a break of three.

Fascinating stuff. The Loch Ness Monster? Nope, I'll leave that to the whisky drinkers.

Cheers

N

Alistair Hosie
01-18-2009, 06:02 PM
Yes thats it Norm I always wondered what her fate was di you hear of the french boat that caught on fire with everyone on board during the war and the had to be mercifully shot one at a time before the burned to death.I think they were french I am not sure I heard about this but cant find anything also in greenock I believe??Alistair

Norman Atkinson
01-18-2009, 06:36 PM
I suspect that this was the French destroyer 'Maille Breze' on 30th April 1940.

She had a torpedo explode and there was a frightening loss of life.

As to shooting the poor victims, frankly I doubt.

I'm a 'pale blue job' rather than one of the White or Red Duster brigade.
'Tiff' will probably have more than me on it.

Now HMS Truculent in 1950, that's my story and I ran foul of one of the comedians who shot the arse off the Bismarck. One of my lot made the 'tall boys' at Vickers for 617 Squadron. The nearest that I got to that little lot was working for Guy Gibson's Signals Officer- Doug Martin and after he was de-mobbed.

Long time ago- millions of years or so it seems.

Cheers

N

dp
01-18-2009, 06:44 PM
Speaking of long time ago, here's some beautiful images of WWII aircraft taken recently at an air show in California.

http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1b/Chino/Chino.html

oil mac
01-18-2009, 06:48 PM
Hello Alistair,
The French ship you are asking about was the battleship, Maillie Breeze (hope my spelling is correct) During the last war she made a run from Algeria to the Clyde & joined the British & Free French, and i believe fought valiently along with our forces, She was loading torpedoes at Princess pier in Greenock one day, when one torpedo came loose from the clips crashed down on the deck & exploded As can be imagined the death toll and damage to the surrounding areas were horrendous, broken windows and blast damage to the surrounding area was extensive
To compound the horror, this accident occured at or about mid-day, when the crew were down below having their lunch break, the horrid fire which followed the explosion, trapped 95% of the crew who due to a wall of flame, and battered in steel doors& hatches could not be rescued, and the construction of the portholes on any French battleships at that period, were unlike the British ships of a size to allow a man to pull in his shoulders & get through ,So the unfortunate victims weretotally trapped Heroic attempts were made by the Greenock dock workers to free the unfortunate sailors, (No French sailors survived) Men were screaming in French to be put out of their misery and the local doctors were throwing vials of morphine through the portholes, And it is said Royal Navy personnel were passing revolvers through to the trapped victims to shoot themselves
A big Royal Naval surgeon commander played a most heroic role in this horrid accident, it is said he was being suspended by his feet over the side trying to help the victims through a porthole Until he stated no life was left aboard her and she was towed out into deeper waters just off Princess Peir & torpedoed less the rest of her ammo should explode & devastate the whole area
My mothers cousin was a surgeon in Greenock and was engaged in this occurence but the horror was so awful she would not talk about it, When the navy eventually sent down a diver to inspect the wreck(an experienced man) what he saw affected him so badly he had a total nervous breakdown from which he never recovered The wreck of this ships superstructure could be seen above the water till after the war when she was lifted and scrapped
If one is proceeding from Greenock to Gourock, up on the Lyle hill can be seen the Cross of Loraine, a monument to all the brave men of the French navy who perished in the battle of the Atlantic, and on this unfortunate ship. This still is a place of pilgrimage for the French folk to this day.
As a small point, when i worked in Greenock, on nightshift i was frequently down at Princess Peir alone, in the dark and only the water lapping one thought often about this and it was a bit unnerving
Mans inhumanity to man !

Alistair Hosie
01-19-2009, 09:23 AM
Dan you describe it so well I knew I had heard of it and yes now you mention it I've seen the cross in the hill well well thanks tou you and Norm Alistair