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Circlip
01-19-2009, 12:24 PM
After a bit of brain scrambling, and finger cramps, it becomes quite obvious that at times, answers we post are not always pertinent to the questions asked in the respect of what was asked was not necessarily not what we though we read. It doesn't help when the goalposts start moving and the linesmen start using different coloured flags and rule books and the playing surface changes from clay through grass to ice.

To put this into context, on three posts I replied to recently, two I think I read and understood correctly and the third I may have missunderstood the original requirement and it's easy to see how old farts, like ME get frustrated and go apesh4t when we don't get all the facts and are trying desperately to help.

Hope Torker don't suffer from brain fade over the CNCisation of "The Gurl". I thought he made it abundantly clear that her machining prowess was being seriously handicapped by her thirst for a challenge and a way forward to help both her AND he was a cheap intro into a CNC set up using a basic CHEAP unit. Floods of good advise, but then into the realms of VMC's and mass production quantities. Great if your going to take over from H. Ford, but no good if you want the ability to make half a dozen three times a year.
Before I'm shouted down on this one, many years ago, when F1 cars had turbo's fitted, a company I worked for, supplied a bit essential for the retention of the turbo to the engine. The customer was a Japanese manufacturer renowned for its capability in engine prowess, so why did they come to a miniscule supplier in a West Yorkshire town for the bit. It wasn't cos they couldn't make the bit themselves, but they took 50 pieces a month over the racing season cos we had the ability to be able to change the design to suit their requirements quickly and cheaply. If big "H" had made them, on pressing the go button, there would have been a thousand on the floor within 1/4 of an hour. Horses for courses.

Second was T-M's (Bless him) request how to make the clock clamp. Now I stuck up for him cos he wanted to know how it works, fine, but on a previous flamer when someone else had a go at him for trying to design an advaced tool grinder, and was castigated, it don't bear thinking about the frustration of showing a complete breakdown of the object in question, and then having to explain the whys and wherefores of a mechanically basic assembly. Everybody has to learn, and being shown the finished object from a slightly different photographic angle, I could have worked out how to make it, yes, and thats due to years in the trade, but at his age, I knew how tapered wedges worked and how to stop things falling out of the end of tubes.
I bet he can beat the cr4p out of me playing "Descent" and "Doom 4" though.

The last one was fancy curves. I hope Neil gets the chance to go see how to do what some of us who've actually done it, did it, and if thats what he wanted to achive in the first place. I hold my hand up to possibly missunderstanding the question he asked, or I THOUGHT he asked. It may be that he only requires to know how to bore bigger holes in a plate using a milling cutter and a Rotab (O bl**dy K) rather than a boring head, and moving the workpiece and clamping for each hole centre. Still don't know, cos despite at least two of us asking for a sketch of what he's trying to do, we still don't know.

I used to have a scripture pinned to the wall of my office (I'll bet Sir John Has seen/got one) that started "We the willing, led by --" and I've forgotten the middle bit, but ended "Now attempt the impossible, with Bu**er all"

It's MOST vexing when you're trying to answer, don't get logical feedback, get hit with answers that weren't part of the original question (Forget the OP's cos they're an amusing destraction {at times}). An if yer gonna use "Quotes" put them in CONTEXT.

Witter over,

Dizzy Regards Ian.

John Stevenson
01-19-2009, 02:33 PM
I used to have a scripture pinned to the wall of my office (I'll bet Sir John Has seen/got one) that started "We the willing, led by --" and I've forgotten the middle bit, but ended "Now attempt the impossible, with Bu**er all"



Regards Ian.
I wrote it and still have copyright on it :rolleyes: :p

There are various versions

We the Willing
Led by the Unknowing
Are doing the Impossible
For the Ungrateful.

We have done So Much
With So Little
For So Long
We are now Qualified

***************

We the willing,
led by the ignorant,
do the impossible
for the ungrateful
for so long
with so little,
that we are now experts
at doing anything
with nothing.



.

Circlip
01-19-2009, 02:51 PM
Oh, WHAT a surprise. :cool: :)

wierdscience
01-19-2009, 02:53 PM
Well it's a bargin this BBS,given what we pay for it and how much more a person gets when they post here:D

Teenage_Machinist
01-19-2009, 02:55 PM
WTF I dont play doom3 ect like that, I make chips!


As far as the DTI holder:

I can tell how the tapered ends of the push rods work, but I have no photo that shows the parts clearyl.


The things I try to "kick ass" at are learning about stuff, and chip making.

Mcgyver
01-19-2009, 03:20 PM
yeah, what weird says....no ones a paid consultant (not that I think you were implying that) so its a bit of crap shoot what direction a thread goes ........all and all though its imo a better and enjoyable environment than the moderated boards...you take the good with the bad.

I believe a good approach, instead of it being the unpaid talent's no-no (who are willing to contribute massive amounts of knowhow and experience) for answering less than directly, the OP has to take responsibility for getting the answers needed; repeating his question, bringing it back on topic, re phrasing it or asking subsequent drill down Q's
.

Norman Atkinson
01-19-2009, 04:15 PM
It was in cheap frame and standing on what was an cheaper bit of furniture in an always icecold room whose miserable gaslight lit up the words of Rudyard Kipling.

Perhaps someone who is more computer literate than me can post it here.
It is the words of 'IF'

For those who think that this is yet another one of Norman's so called Classical Comments, a bit reads

'Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn out tools'

Norman

HSS
01-19-2009, 04:20 PM
We had a sign over our maintenance shack in Viet Nam that said; "We have done so much with so little for so long, that with nothing, we can do damn near anything" And that is just about what they expected. LOL

Patrick

Walter
01-19-2009, 04:50 PM
We the unwilling
led by the unknowing
have been doing the impossible
for the ungrateful
for so long
that we are now qualified
to do anything
with nothing...

or:

It's hard to soar with eagles when your surrounded by turkeys =)

Today was fun, I spent it hammering CPM 1V swedges into 1550 degree D2 blocks. (making forming blocks)

Ian/Circlip, Spot on.

T-M, Makin chips is a good thing, but make time to be a kid sometimes too, all too soon the world will demand you "grow up"

oldtiffie
01-19-2009, 04:54 PM
Thanks Circlip (Ian).

Soi far as I can see, your perception is correct.

It sure didn't take long to either for some to ignore your OP or to disregard it - and to hi-jack or OT it either - did it?

I always try (well mostly) to refer back to the original post and poster for reference, clarification or guidance.

It peeves me a little that a look at the title of the thread all too often bears no relationship to the current discussion in the thread.

I will admit - and certainly cannot and will not deny - that I've done my share of it too - and have often given myself a bollocking about it in retrospect. In that regard or context, I live in a glass house that has very little glass left in it. I try to preserve what glass is left but the chances of it happening are pretty slim.

That OP and this thread of yours was and is very timely and I hope acts as a good "heads up" for us all.

Peter N
01-19-2009, 05:00 PM
<snip>
or:

It's hard to soar with eagles when your surrounded by turkeys =)


Or as Ricky Gervais said "Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines" :D

Mark Hockett
01-19-2009, 05:00 PM
Hope Torker don't suffer from brain fade over the CNCisation of "The Gurl". I thought he made it abundantly clear that her machining prowess was being seriously handicapped by her thirst for a challenge and a way forward to help both her AND he was a cheap intro into a CNC set up using a basic CHEAP unit. Floods of good advise, but then into the realms of VMC's and mass production quantities. Great if your going to take over from H. Ford, but no good if you want the ability to make half a dozen three times a year.
Before I'm shouted down on this one, many years ago, when F1 cars had turbo's fitted, a company I worked for, supplied a bit essential for the retention of the turbo to the engine. The customer was a Japanese manufacturer renowned for its capability in engine prowess, so why did they come to a miniscule supplier in a West Yorkshire town for the bit. It wasn't cos they couldn't make the bit themselves, but they took 50 pieces a month over the racing season cos we had the ability to be able to change the design to suit their requirements quickly and cheaply. If big "H" had made them, on pressing the go button, there would have been a thousand on the floor within 1/4 of an hour. Horses for courses.



In defense of those of us who mentioned the VMC as an option her are some quotes from Russ,

"I'm actively looking for a machine...I have the money to buy "something"...
I even have some ideas for products the girl can manufacture."


When someone mentions they want to manufacture products that tells me they want to make more than a few parts. The mill Russ was looking at would more than likely end up costing more to get up and running in a reliable way than the cost of a used Fadal VMC that is still supported. And if he retro fitted the Tree he would have a machine of limited market value. If this venture did not work out and he had a Fadal he would have a machine that could easily be sold for probably what he paid for it. If he were to purchase the Tree and his products take off he would end up, like my friend with the Haas TM-1, scrambling to get a new machine to keep up with production. With a VMC he would have a machine he could grow into.

One final note, most think that VMC's are only good for production and that is just not true. I do one offs on mine all the time. I create a drawing or my customer sends me a drawing and then it is a simple opperation to create tool paths from the drawing and send the code to the machine, at that point I don't see where it is any faster to do the job on a manual machine as a manual machine still requires setting up tools and work positions just like a CNC and with a drawing and programs I have a paper trail for future reference.

Teenage_Machinist
01-19-2009, 05:03 PM
What exactly differntiates a VMC from any other CNC vertical mill?

Mark Hockett
01-19-2009, 05:19 PM
VMC has automatic tool change and is usually fully enclosed.

Teenage_Machinist
01-19-2009, 05:23 PM
That's the ONLY difference?

So if you CNC ify a Seig X2, build a box, and add the ATC from LMS, it's a VMC?

That is weird\

I thought it referred to breaking traditional machine tool definitions, ect, But never seen a definition.

Mcgyver
01-19-2009, 06:36 PM
That's the ONLY difference?

So if you CNC ify a Seig X2, build a box, and add the ATC from LMS, it's a VMC?
.

yup, and then you'll shun us and move over to PM to post :rolleyes: :D

Teenage_Machinist
01-19-2009, 06:40 PM
not my plan. I fear the end of manual Old Iron, and new as well.

BillH
01-19-2009, 07:44 PM
WTF I dont play doom3 ect like that, I make chips!


As far as the DTI holder:

I can tell how the tapered ends of the push rods work, but I have no photo that shows the parts clearyl.


The things I try to "kick ass" at are learning about stuff, and chip making.
At your age, you should be trying to get into as many girls pants as possible and leave the tools on the backburner.

oldtiffie
01-19-2009, 07:55 PM
TM's effort was a classic hi-jack. If it was unintentional - well and good - perhaps, but if it was deliberate it hit the mark beautifully.

So in the spirit of things generally, and for those that may have ignored it or forgotten it, here is my hi-jack from the thread such as it is - all the way back to the OP's opening post - so let's be courteous and attend to that to the satisfaction of the OP first and then perhaps hi-jack it again:


After a bit of brain scrambling, and finger cramps, it becomes quite obvious that at times, answers we post are not always pertinent to the questions asked in the respect of what was asked was not necessarily not what we though we read. It doesn't help when the goalposts start moving and the linesmen start using different coloured flags and rule books and the playing surface changes from clay through grass to ice.

To put this into context, on three posts I replied to recently, two I think I read and understood correctly and the third I may have missunderstood the original requirement and it's easy to see how old farts, like ME get frustrated and go apesh4t when we don't get all the facts and are trying desperately to help.

Hope Torker don't suffer from brain fade over the CNCisation of "The Gurl". I thought he made it abundantly clear that her machining prowess was being seriously handicapped by her thirst for a challenge and a way forward to help both her AND he was a cheap intro into a CNC set up using a basic CHEAP unit. Floods of good advise, but then into the realms of VMC's and mass production quantities. Great if your going to take over from H. Ford, but no good if you want the ability to make half a dozen three times a year.
Before I'm shouted down on this one, many years ago, when F1 cars had turbo's fitted, a company I worked for, supplied a bit essential for the retention of the turbo to the engine. The customer was a Japanese manufacturer renowned for its capability in engine prowess, so why did they come to a miniscule supplier in a West Yorkshire town for the bit. It wasn't cos they couldn't make the bit themselves, but they took 50 pieces a month over the racing season cos we had the ability to be able to change the design to suit their requirements quickly and cheaply. If big "H" had made them, on pressing the go button, there would have been a thousand on the floor within 1/4 of an hour. Horses for courses.

Second was T-M's (Bless him) request how to make the clock clamp. Now I stuck up for him cos he wanted to know how it works, fine, but on a previous flamer when someone else had a go at him for trying to design an advaced tool grinder, and was castigated, it don't bear thinking about the frustration of showing a complete breakdown of the object in question, and then having to explain the whys and wherefores of a mechanically basic assembly. Everybody has to learn, and being shown the finished object from a slightly different photographic angle, I could have worked out how to make it, yes, and thats due to years in the trade, but at his age, I knew how tapered wedges worked and how to stop things falling out of the end of tubes.
I bet he can beat the cr4p out of me playing "Descent" and "Doom 4" though.

The last one was fancy curves. I hope Neil gets the chance to go see how to do what some of us who've actually done it, did it, and if thats what he wanted to achive in the first place. I hold my hand up to possibly missunderstanding the question he asked, or I THOUGHT he asked. It may be that he only requires to know how to bore bigger holes in a plate using a milling cutter and a Rotab (O bl**dy K) rather than a boring head, and moving the workpiece and clamping for each hole centre. Still don't know, cos despite at least two of us asking for a sketch of what he's trying to do, we still don't know.

I used to have a scripture pinned to the wall of my office (I'll bet Sir John Has seen/got one) that started "We the willing, led by --" and I've forgotten the middle bit, but ended "Now attempt the impossible, with Bu**er all"

It's MOST vexing when you're trying to answer, don't get logical feedback, get hit with answers that weren't part of the original question (Forget the OP's cos they're an amusing destraction {at times}). An if yer gonna use "Quotes" put them in CONTEXT.

Witter over,

Dizzy Regards Ian.

TGTool
01-19-2009, 11:02 PM
To put this into context, on three posts I replied to recently, two I think I read and understood correctly and the third I may have missunderstood the original requirement and it's easy to see how old farts, like ME get frustrated and go apesh4t when we don't get all the facts and are trying desperately to help.


"... then one day in the potting shed she asked me for some game.
Maybe I mistook her but it was fun, all the same. "

Chatterley's Gamekeeper

Funny, some threads are like that...

doctor demo
01-20-2009, 03:53 AM
I feel more like I do now, than I did when I first started reading this thread.
Name and address wihtheld:p .

J Tiers
01-20-2009, 09:42 AM
up the words of Rudyard Kipling.

Perhaps someone who is more computer literate than me can post it here.
It is the words of 'IF'



Unfortunately, right now, that particular bit of Kiplingiana has come under a serious cloud.......

The governor (I couldn't find any letters smaller than lower case) of Illinois, the wrong and dishonorable Rod Blagojevich, has taken to quoting literature, and has used that Kipling piece prominently........

Thus it will need some cleaning before it is again usable.......

Bguns
01-20-2009, 09:55 AM
If you Still Don't Get how The NOGA Style (Brit Speak Clock Holder) works,
Give me a PM.

Super Simple and Hard to Photograph, just a small Bevel on one side of a Circular Part..

My Camera Sucks, But I can Still remember Mechanical Drawing Classes :)

BobWarfield
01-20-2009, 12:35 PM
Heck I seen guys hijack threads all high and mighty about some safety issue or other.

Haven't seen that here though, oddly enough.

TM, don't let 'em get you down on the games. I still play RTCW and beat a lotta kidz at my advanced years!

Cheers,

BW

PS Mcgyver, nah, someone that converted a Sieg to a VMC would go hang out on CNCZone. Take a look at Hossmachine: http://www.hossmachine.info/

He did said conversion and its really cool!

derekm
01-20-2009, 02:39 PM
Unfortunately, right now, that particular bit of Kiplingiana has come under a serious cloud.......

The governor (I couldn't find any letters smaller than lower case) of Illinois, the wrong and dishonorable Rod Blagojevich, has taken to quoting literature, and has used that Kipling piece prominently........

Thus it will need some cleaning before it is again usable.......

And there is a man who has suffered from perceptions - I mean Kipling -
Because he loved his Empire and India he has been vilified by many yet given he was a man of his time his attitudes were very enlightened. Take one of his most miquoted works... East is East and West is West. This first line is often taken out of context to demonstrate racism etc... here is an example (http://www.quebecoislibre.org/04/040915-6.htm)
but here is the complete first stanza

OH, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God’s great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, tho’ they come from the ends of the earth!

And if you take the entire poem it is in fact a call to judge people on merit and actions, regardless of race or which side they fight on

There is one country where Kipling is revered for his depth of perception of people and his understanding and that is ...... India

Perhaps, no I'm certain, that If Kipling was alive today he would be in Washington DC cheering the success of ability over Border, Breed and Birth


0h, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

Kamal is out with twenty men to raise the Border side,
And he has lifted the Colonel's mare that is the Colonel's pride.
He has lifted her out of the stable-door between the dawn and day
And turned the calkins upon her feet, and ridden her far away.

Then up and spoke the Colonel's son that led a troop of the Guides
Is there never a man of all my men can say where Kamal hides? "
Then up and spoke Mohammed Khan, the son of the Ressaldar:
"If ye know the track of the morning-mist, ye know where his pickets are.
"At dusk he harries the Abazai - at dawn he is into Bonair,
"But he must go by Fort Bukloh to his own place to fare.
"So if ye gallop to Fort Bukloh as fast as a bird can fly,
"By the favour of God ye may cut him off ere he win to the Tongue of Jagai.
"But if he be past the Tongue of Jagai, right swiftly turn ye then,
"For the length and the breadth of that grisly plain is sown with Kamal's men.
"There is rock to the left, and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,
"And ye may hear a breech-bolt snick where never a man is seen."

The Colonel's son has taken horse, and a raw rough dun was he,
With the mouth of a bell and the heart of Hell and the head of a gallows-tree.
The Colonel's son to the Fort has won, they bid him stay to eat
Who rides at the tail of a Border thief, he sits not long at his meat.
He's up and away from Fort Bukloh as fast as he can fly,
Till he was aware of his father's mare in the gut of the Tongue of Jagai,
Till he was aware of his father's mare with Kamal upon her back,
And when he could spy the white of her eye, he made the Pistol crack.
He has fired once, he has fired twice, but the whistling ball went wide.
Ye shoot like a soldier," Kamal said. " Show now if ye can ride!
It's up and over the Tongue of Jagai, as blown dust-devils go
The dun he fled like a stag of ten, but the mare like a barren doe.
The dun he leaned against the bit and slugged his head above,
But the red mare played with the snaffle-bars, as a maiden plays with a glove.
There was rock to the left and rock to the right, and low lean thorn between,
And thrice he heard a breech-bolt snick tho' never a man was seen.

They have ridden the low moon out of the sky, their hoofs drum up the dawn,
The dun he went like a wounded bull, but the mare like a new-roused fawn.
The dun he fell at a water-course - in a woeful heap fell he,
And Kamal. has turned the red mare back, and pulled the rider free.
He has knocked the pistol out of his hand - small room was there to strive,
'Twas only by favour of mine," quoth he, " ye rode so long alive:
"There was not a rock for twenty mile, there was not a clump of tree,
"But covered a man of my own men with his rifle cocked on his knee.
"If I had raised my bridle-hand, as I have held it low,
"The little jackals that flee so fast were feasting all in a row.
"If I had bowed my head on my breast, as I have held it high,
"The kite that whistles above us now were gorged till she could not fly."
Lightly answered the Colonel's son: "Do good to bird and beast,
"But count who come for the broken meats before thou makest a feast.
"If there should follow a thousand swords to carry my bones away.
"Belike the price of a jackal's meal were more than a thief could pay.
"They will feed their horse on the standing crop, their men on the garnered grain.
"The thatch of the byres will serve their fires when all the cattle are slain.
"But if thou thinkest the price be fair - thy brethren wait to sup,
"The hound is kin to the jackal-spawn - howl, dog, and call them up!
"And if thou thinkest the price be high, in steer and gear and stack,
"Give me my father's mare again, and I'll fight my own way back! "

Kamal has gripped him by the hand and set him upon his feet.
"No talk shall be of dogs," said he, "when wolf and grey wolf meet.
"May I eat dirt if thou hast hurt of me in deed or breath;
"What dam of lances brought thee forth to jest at the dawn with Death?"
Lightly answered the Colonel's son: " I hold by the blood of my clan:
Take up the mare for my father's gift - by God, she has carried a man!"
The red mare ran to the Colonel's son, and nuzzled against his breast;
"We be two strong men," said Kamal then, " but she loveth the younger best.
"So she shall go with a lifter's dower, my turquoise-studded rein,
"My 'broidered saddle and saddle-cloth, and silver stirrup twain."
The Colonel's son a pistol drew, and held it muzzle-end,
"Ye have taken the one from a foe," said he. " Will ye take the mate from a friend? "
"A gift for a gift," said Kamal straight; "a limb for the risk of a limb.
"Thy father has sent his son to me, I'll send my son to him!"
With that he whistled his only son, that dropped from a mountain-crest
He trod the ling like a buck in spring, and he looked like a lance in rest.
"Now here is thy master," Kamal said, "who leads a troop of the Guides,
"And thou must ride at his left side as shield on shoulder rides.
"Till Death or I cut loose the tie, at camp and board and bed,
"Thy life is his - thy fate it is to guard him with thy head.
"So, thou must eat the White Queen's meat, and all her foes are thine,
"And thou must harry thy father's hold for the peace of the Border-line.
"And thou must make a trooper tough and hack thy way to power
"Belike they will raise thee to Ressaldar when I am hanged in Peshawur! "

They have looked each other between the eyes, and there they found no fault.
They have taken the Oath of the Brother-in-Blood on leavened bread and salt:
They have taken the Oath of the Brother-in-Blood on fire and fresh-cut sod,
On the hilt and the haft of the Khyber knife, and the Wondrous Names of God.

The Colonel's son he rides the mare and Kamal's boy the dun,
And two have come back to Fort Bukloh where there went forth but one.
And when they drew to the Quarter-Guard, full twenty swords flew clear
There was not a man but carried his feud with the blood of the mountaineer.
Ha' done! ha' done! " said the Colonel's son. " Put up the steel at your sides!
Last night ye had struck at a Border thief - to-night 't is a man of the Guides! "

Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
When two strong men stand face to face though they come from the ends of the earth!

Teenage_Machinist
01-20-2009, 08:15 PM
At your age, you should be trying to get into as many girls pants as possible and leave the tools on the backburner.


So have they yet forsaken the ideals of the Elder Days

The kind studies, lads tall and maidens fair?


Oh, my gods, my Boy Scout Troop is full of people who do that but with no jokeing at all. And they're all eagle scouts!





No, I did not intend to hijack the thread.

oldtiffie
01-20-2009, 08:37 PM
I'd be very interested to see the OP's opinion on the direction that his original post has taken and whether he has had his questions answered or his concerns confirmed.

BillH
01-20-2009, 08:37 PM
So have they yet forsaken the ideals of the Elder Days

The kind studies, lads tall and maidens fair?


Oh, my gods, my Boy Scout Troop is full of people who do that but with no jokeing at all. And they're all eagle scouts!

That's because they went through puberty already.

Teenage_Machinist
01-20-2009, 08:40 PM
So have I as evidenced by uncontrollable wish to use Greek allusions to describe love?


I DO NOT WANT TO HIJACK THIS A SECOND TIMEW!

Norman Atkinson
01-21-2009, 04:33 AM
Ian possibly was 'fishing' for wide ranging views.

He simply tossed in a grenade and is watching what surfaces.

A few of the comments which I observed were that

1. There was a bunch with no sense of humour whatsoever

2. Another bunch probably were dyed in the wool professionals and might be more appropriate in PM

3. Another set were concerned where the world had got to- and were taking Obama's clear masonic speech and comparing it to another clear voice of the past.

4. Another set had some difficulty in 'keeping their minds above their navels'

There may be more.

I, too, look forward to more from the Man of Millstone Grit.

Norman

BillH
01-21-2009, 08:01 AM
So have I as evidenced by uncontrollable wish to use Greek allusions to describe love?


I DO NOT WANT TO HIJACK THIS A SECOND TIMEW!
You need to be speakin proper english if you want me to follow along, I can't follow coded speak like Norman uses.

Circlip
01-21-2009, 08:44 AM
Eeeee by gum Norm lad, thee an me both seem to oscillate on't same frequency.

Sorry, must let everyone else into the plot. I just kept quiet 'Tiffe to see what reactions would be voiced over a given set of words and others "Perceptions" of what I'd actually written.

I purposely didn't embelish the posting with emoticons and it's amusing how the English language and meanings have become bastardised since the time of the pilgrim fathers in one direction and the prison hulks in the other :D (Put LOTS in to show mirth and joke)

T-M, "making chips" translates in the mother country as something thats served with deep fried fish, but Harry Ramsden hadn't opened his first emporium on White Abbey Road when J. Smith and some of his mates decided to leave the sinking ship. The reference to computer games was actually a COMPLIMENT to T-M but again I didnt put a :cool: or a :) in did I?? Another cross pond miss interpetation.

In the same vein, the most enjoyable part of this forum is that there aren't many "praise trawlers" and although accused of having highjacked posts on safety issues elswhere, yer don't get any dangerous set ups shown in 156thousand colours (Colors) for new guys to "Copy" and risk hurting themselves. There is a saying, "It's better for people to think your an idiot than open your mouth and prove it" (and yes critics you can have a field day at MY expense), but when you show a piccy of it, DOH!

Off Post threads? Great, all part of lifes rich tapestry, the reason I pointed to the CNC mill/VMC saga, years ago, I pointed out, with worked and documented evidence, the wisdom of obtaining a CNC lathe where I worked. After a Director level meeting that I was not invited to, the Technical Director approached me and asked if I knew what a VMC was? and why I though we should buy one? The old "Send three and fourpence" syndrome. Another director had put his own spin on what I'd said. (Translation for TLOTF, "Send reinfocements") and I haven't seen anything that is OP so far, cos I left it as an open post.

Thanks for the "Quote in context" Derekm, sadly no one will be able to stuff the whole of it down the "Polititions" throat.

"The moving pen writes and having writ moves on" and yes, it is in context and is complete in its statement.

Ok. chillblanes, back to the grist,

Regards Ian.


I put 7 of these :D in, but it wouldn't let me post.

John Stevenson
01-21-2009, 09:39 AM
I was interested in the fancy curves bit.
it was obvious that Neil was struggling to get to grips with the overall idea but we all have to start somewhere.

I didn't feel it went OT , it may have moved sideways a bit with the mention of the Volstro head but after all this also does do arc and curves but in a different way.

One thing the post did clear up was that a rotab [ sorry Ian ] on an XY table doesn't workh the same way as a XY table on a rotab. the latter being preferable.

Above all I was disappointed that no one stood up to the mark and gave an actual example, perhaps if Neil had come up with a sketch it may have gone further.
This was the ideal post for someone to jump in and have a go, even if they were wrong [ and could take critism :D ] then everyone would have learnt from this.

I know from emails that we still have a massive number of lurkers on this site, some are content to just lurk but many are frightened that their beginner status will become embarrassing if they post.


Is it useful ? I think so because it's not just about doing one job, it's about improving knowledge to enable you to see other jobs in a new light.

.

oldtiffie
01-21-2009, 07:02 PM
.................................................. ....
.................................................. ....

I know from emails that we still have a massive number of lurkers on this site, some are content to just lurk but many are frightened that their beginner status will become embarrassing if they post.

..................................................
.................................................. ...

.

You got it John.

If ever there was a problem that was caused by perceptions - that's it.

Just to be sure the I am remaining on topic, that perception, to me anyway, is in several parts (mainly):
- those who are lurking (don't like "lurking" as it has unfortunate connotations - and "newbie" is not far behind it) and are afraid or hesitant to join:

- those that join and are hesitant to post;

- those that join and post and perceive that they should not have, often never to be heard of or from again;

- those that who may be very experienced or have little experience but a lot of proven aptitude who perceive that they have to "keep their place" and "work their way up" through and perhaps wrongly defer to those who are "higher-up" in the perceived "rank" structure;

- those who perceive that number of posts relates directly to competence and literacy (the converse also applies unfortunately);

- that having your query or comment "side-tracked" (hi-jacked really) puts them and their comment etc. in the "not worth discussing and needs to be got rid of" category;

- that admitting to a mistake or error is either "not done" or "not manly" - or worse - both;

- that having a literacy level different to others which may be seen as a handicap;

etc.;

etc.

Teenage_Machinist
01-21-2009, 08:57 PM
Perceptions! Perceptions! Perceptions! Perceptions!


Why, without our traditions, our machines would be as chattery as... as...

As a sine plate on a Bridgeport! :D


These perceptions go every way.

BillH
01-21-2009, 09:16 PM
Perceptions! Perceptions! Perceptions! Perceptions!


Why, without our traditions, our machines would be as chattery as... as...

As a sine plate on a Bridgeport! :D


These perceptions go every way.
I thought you were going to say, "As chattery as a 1/16th endmill cutting a .001 slot in aluminum on an X1 mill.

Teenage_Machinist
01-21-2009, 09:31 PM
You mean, A homemade flycutter cutting DuraBar on an x1?

Gah, I tried to cut this iron, making a surface gage for scraping work to hold an indicator, it just refused to cut, would jump. I might borrow a friends mill to do it or wait till I have an x3.

ogopogo
01-21-2009, 09:32 PM
You got it John.

If ever there was a problem that was caused by perceptions - that's it.

Just to be sure the I am remaining on topic, that perception, to me anyway, is in several parts (mainly):
- those who are lurking (don't like "lurking" as it has unfortunate connotations - and "newbie" is not far behind it) and are afraid or hesitant to join:

- those that join and are hesitant to post;

- those that join and post and perceive that they should not have, often never to be heard of or from again;

- those that who may be very experienced or have little experience but a lot of proven aptitude who perceive that they have to "keep their place" and "work their way up" through and perhaps wrongly defer to those who are "higher-up" in the perceived "rank" structure;

- those who perceive that number of posts relates directly to competence and literacy (the converse also applies unfortunately);

- that having your query or comment "side-tracked" (hi-jacked really) puts them and their comment etc. in the "not worth discussing and needs to be got rid of" category;

- that admitting to a mistake or error is either "not done" or "not manly" - or worse - both;

- that having a literacy level different to others which may be seen as a handicap;

etc.;

etc.

One possible reason some members(?) are content to lurk or post infrequently may be that they dont enjoy being flamed with insulting put downs and stupid emoticons by the self appointed big four (or five)
Please stop and think before flaming someone who quite possibly has more industry/life experience than you. P.S the worst offenders are on my ignore list

BillH
01-21-2009, 09:50 PM
You mean, A homemade flycutter cutting DuraBar on an x1?

Gah, I tried to cut this iron, making a surface gage for scraping work to hold an indicator, it just refused to cut, would jump. I might borrow a friends mill to do it or wait till I have an x3.

I've been playing with my X3 as of late. It is the first mill I've used since my X1. It certainly is much more capable but I find myself always being way too greedy. I can make the thing chatter with a 1/2" endmill in aluminum quite easily. Now I know why people say to just buy a bridgeport. Anyhow, I just have to tame my greed and not try to take .250 passes in Aluminum with a 1/2" end mill. I am happy with it though. The next mill I get will be a giant one however.

lane
01-21-2009, 09:52 PM
I wrote it and still have copyright on it :rolleyes: :p

There are various versions

We the Willing
Led by the Unknowing
Are doing the Impossible
For the Ungrateful.

We have done So Much
With So Little
For So Long
We are now Qualified

***************

We the willing,
led by the ignorant,
do the impossible
for the ungrateful
for so long
with so little,
that we are now experts
at doing anything
with nothing.



.

We the willing led by the incompetent and working with nothing are doing the impossible. That is my version and I am sticking to it.

Teenage_Machinist
01-21-2009, 09:53 PM
No chance for a giant mill,


Would you say it cut an eighth or so of steel with a 3/8 endmill?

David Powell
01-21-2009, 10:12 PM
If you dont have the space or money to have a big mill but you want to remove a lot of metal, albeit rather more slowly than with a powerful mill, then get a shaper, make sure it is in good order, learn how to grind good tools, set her up, get a cup of tea and just watch mesmerised by the movement. Tooling costs are negligible, and the chips fly mainly in one direction. I enjoy mine and do almost all my roughing out and squaring up on it, keeping the expensive milling cutters for the jobs for which they are more suited, or which I havent yet learnt to do on the shaper. regards David Powell.

lane
01-21-2009, 10:15 PM
You mean, A homemade flycutter cutting DuraBar on an x1?

Gah, I tried to cut this iron, making a surface gage for scraping work to hold an indicator, it just refused to cut, would jump. I might borrow a friends mill to do it or wait till I have an x3.

Heck I bet you running too fast.

Teenage_Machinist
01-21-2009, 10:19 PM
Shapers = Nice. Plus they do things that mills cannot. However, there is not likely for there to be any more than two machine tools in the current shop.

The fact that it is automatic would be really nice. I may make or buy an auto feed when I get an x3. That would help a lot. I tried running the mini mill slow, but it kept grabbing.

Should I be able to take a pass something like an eighth deep with a small end mill on an X3?

Plus would you say indexable end/face mills are good for quick removal?

Mark Hockett
01-21-2009, 11:11 PM
If you dont have the space or money to have a big mill but you want to remove a lot of metal, albeit rather more slowly than with a powerful mill, then get a shaper, make sure it is in good order, learn how to grind good tools, set her up, get a cup of tea and just watch mesmerised by the movement. Tooling costs are negligible, and the chips fly mainly in one direction. I enjoy mine and do almost all my roughing out and squaring up on it, keeping the expensive milling cutters for the jobs for which they are more suited, or which I havent yet learnt to do on the shaper. regards David Powell.

I just love this picture of a shaper taking a 2." deep cut, hows that for metal removal,

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c10/mahockett/shaperimges018.jpg

oldtiffie
01-21-2009, 11:32 PM
So have I as evidenced by uncontrollable wish to use Greek allusions to describe love?


I DO NOT WANT TO HIJACK THIS A SECOND TIMEW!

It seems that you have contradictory "wants" TM:
- not to hi-jack it again - as you said; and
- hi-jacking it again which you have and did.

I wonder what the OP thinks of the thread thus far as far as sticking to topic - again - particularly after his last review.

David Powell
01-21-2009, 11:49 PM
I certainly can see how an answer to a direct question is important to a querist, and if the question is clear and specific then the answers can and should be equally focussed. However, once we are past the initial points, and hopefully in reasonable agreement, then could our postings then be looked at as if we were all holding a cup, glass or pint, while enjoying a fireside chat after the problem of the day was solved. Then perhaps we could all be expected to wander away a bit from the original question and perhaps tell vaguely related stories which might well lead to other questions and topics. When I have visitors to the shop our conversations often progress from one topic to another and sometimes back again and no one has complained yet! Regards David Powell.

oldtiffie
01-22-2009, 12:59 AM
Thanks for that David.

I agree with you entirely as the list you give and the order of them happening is exactly what I'd hope for.

Ignoring the issues is bad enough but ignoring the poster - particularly the original poster is far worse. To ignore other posters on the same topics as the OP is no better. Ignoring issues that people find confronting or unpalatable is not making those issues go away nor is it resolving them.

"Having a chat afterward" is quite in order and just what I'd hope for - only but only after the core issue is addressed to the satisfaction of the OP or later post(er)s related to the core issues of the OP.

All too often these "chats" develop into a separate issue or topic that not only is not related to the OP but all too often cannot be found either by listing the threads or the posts which does nothing to improve the use of the "Search" utility. It also means that if a searcher finds a thread that looks promising and goes to the final page it - or many pages and posts before it - bears no resemblance at all to the title of the OP. The best way I've found to address this issue is to "Book-mark" a post or thread under a meaningful heading.

speedy
01-22-2009, 03:36 AM
Well, now that the matter is sorted, lets crack the piss.
Is anyone here familiar with the Hi Standard Supermatic Trophy model 103?

Circlip
01-22-2009, 04:23 AM
Is that the one that had the Peasmold Gruntfuttock mod in 1956?

BillH
01-22-2009, 09:34 AM
No chance for a giant mill,


Would you say it cut an eighth or so of steel with a 3/8 endmill?
haven't tried yet but it should!

derekm
01-22-2009, 10:15 AM
Is that the one that had the Peasmold Gruntfuttock mod in 1956?
I thought that the J. Peasmold Gruntfuttock wasnt available until 1965?

Circlip
01-22-2009, 11:12 AM
That was J, I'm referring to his older BROTHER.

speedy
01-22-2009, 05:27 PM
Is that the one that had the Peasmold Gruntfuttock mod in 1956?
No, it was shipped from the US in April '62, so it couldn't possibly be. Besides, this is an American pistol.
Thanks for the prompt Circlip:D. Google is my friend after all.

lane
01-22-2009, 07:56 PM
Well I for 1 hope I have not hurt any one`s feelings,but I can and am kind of blunt and to the point.

Their are many ways to do things in the shop and every one has their own way. Not to say any are right are wrong just different.

So a new guy ask a question he is going to get many answers some may be better than others .And depending on what he has for tool to work with for some ideas may be better to use but may not necessarily be the easiest way to do the job at hand.

And again I have found through experience what works for one person may not work for some one else.

So now the new guy has another problem he has to try and figure what way are how are what way will work for him and try to do it . So now after we all put in our 2 cent`s worth the new guy has another problem decision`s decision`s .

So weather he is better off are more knowledgeable who know`s.


We are just trying to help. Their are some of us that know, and some of us that think they know, and a whole bunch of us that have no idea at all.

The big problem is who to believe. But I think with a month are two of reading the threads on this site It is easy enough to figure out who knows what.

One thing I learned long time ago . you do not have to be smart are sharp.But you need to know who to go to for the RIGHT answer to your question.

A lot of people will give an answer,but only a few will give you the right answer .

These are my thoughts on this subject. Good Bad are otherwise .

BillH
01-22-2009, 08:04 PM
Well I for 1 hope I have not hurt any one`s feelings,but I can and am kind of blunt and to the point.

Their are many ways to do things in the shop and every one has their own way. Not to say any are right are wrong just different.

So a new guy ask a question he is going to get many answers some may be better than others .And depending on what he has for tool to work with for some ideas may be better to use but may not necessarily be the easiest way to do the job at hand.

And again I have found through experience what works for one person may not work for some one else.

So now the new guy has another problem he has to try and figure what way are how are what way will work for him and try to do it . So now after we all put in our 2 cent`s worth the new guy has another problem decision`s decision`s .

So weather he is better off are more knowledgeable who know`s.


We are just trying to help. Their are some of us that know, and some of us that think they know, and a whole bunch of us that have no idea at all.

The big problem is who to believe. But I think with a month are two of reading the threads on this site It is easy enough to figure out who knows what.

One thing I learned long time ago . you do not have to be smart are sharp.But you need to know who to go to for the RIGHT answer to your question.

A lot of people will give an answer,but only a few will give you the right answer .

These are my thoughts on this subject. Good Bad are otherwise .
More times than not, I've come to the conclusion that I am the only one who knows the best answer for myself.
I think some on here want to be that person others look up to, others just want to be helpful, some who only show their best work and not their screwups to shape a favorable image to others, and some who don't give a rats ass how others view them. Then you have some who never show their work and stay in the corner who could quite possibly the best of the best on here and you'll never know.
Some people join a social club to be pricks, others try to be the top dog on an online forum, all for their ego that matters nothing in the end in the big game called life.