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View Full Version : guess what cutting tool made this cut



dan s
01-22-2009, 03:25 AM
I just finished up in the shop, and I was surprised at how smooth this surface turned out. Take your best guess at what cutting tool produced this surface finish. For reference the part is 7075-T6 1.5" wide by 2" long.

http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/1416/7075t6gn2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

small.planes
01-22-2009, 03:48 AM
Shaper?

Dave

macona
01-22-2009, 04:24 AM
cutting tool or machine?

Looks like a face mill with the head out of tram.

Evan
01-22-2009, 05:57 AM
It's a shaper. There are slight parallel lines running the long direction of the part. Not a bad finish but much more can be done.

7075-T6 will produce mirror finishes with the right tooling. It's very hard, about 20% harder than mild steel. It's the one type of aluminum where the swarf cuts you.

Shapers can produce some interesting finishes.

Here are some examples on steel:

This first is the finish from a regular finish cut in mild steel.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics2/shaperfin1.jpg

Next we have some fancier finishes.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics2/shaperfinish1.jpg

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics2/shaperfinish2.jpg

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics2/shaperfinish5.jpg

.RC.
01-22-2009, 06:13 AM
Amazing finish on those parts Evan, how did you get them so white you cannot even see them on the screen??? :D:D

Evan
01-22-2009, 06:35 AM
Must be your new internet filter system in operation. They show up fine here.

.RC.
01-22-2009, 06:41 AM
I cleared the cache but still nothing shows..The filter must have classified it as pr0n.. :D

Evan
01-22-2009, 08:29 AM
Try this. I made one change that might disclose how the filter works.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/shaperfinish1bw.jpg

japcas
01-22-2009, 08:38 AM
I'd say a slab mill on a horizontal milling machine.

JCHannum
01-22-2009, 08:58 AM
Since Dan is the proud new owner of a US Machines vertical mill, I would guess that is what he used to produce that finish. A properly trammed vertical mill with a sharp cutter is quite capable of producing a very nice finish.

If I had to guess which specific cutter he used, I would go with either a fly cutter or face mill.

Willy
01-22-2009, 09:17 AM
I dunno, it almost looks like it has three facets to it like it was cut in three passes. Then again it also has a straight grain or brushed surface on top of those facets. Almost looks to be finished with an in line sander.
I know I've obtained some really nice finishes on steel using of all things, a random orbit sander.

Evan
01-22-2009, 09:31 AM
The finish isn't consistent with a rotating face cutter. I enhanced the image and it could be a slabbing cutter or a shaper.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics5/image49.jpg

oldtiffie
01-22-2009, 09:37 AM
Side cut on an end-milling cutter?

Carld
01-22-2009, 09:52 AM
Horizonal mill with a cutter as wide as the marks indicate???

dan s
01-22-2009, 09:52 AM
Ok I'm off to work, but just wanted to say it wasn't done on a mill or a shaper. I'll check in during lunch and give you the answer, I think you'll all be surprised what tool actually made the cut.

topct
01-22-2009, 09:55 AM
An angle grinder disc, mounted on a radial arm saw.

SDL
01-22-2009, 09:57 AM
Ok I'm off to work, but just wanted to say it wasn't done on a mill or a shaper. I'll check in during lunch and give you the answer, I think you'll all be surprised what tool actually made the cut.

Planer?

Steve Larner

Evan
01-22-2009, 10:19 AM
"the cut". Bandsaw.

A.K. Boomer
01-22-2009, 10:38 AM
I think Evan's either right or close - Its a cut -- but from what?, it cant be a typical saw due to the straight line of the cut and lack of a regressive arc so that is why I believe the bandsaw guess is in the ballpark - still Id like to go further out on a limb and include the power hacksaw -- depending on design (and there were many) I seem to recall a few that lifted the blade and drive rack up at both ends and then rested it back down on the work piece level, this could also give the results seen in the pic - and yes the position of the piece looks as if it was changed about three times... but the cutting grain is really all in the same direction --- so the "blade" picked up a crumb for a bit.

madman
01-22-2009, 10:44 AM
Nice new Inserts in a OctoMill running 1700 2000 rpm??

hornluv
01-22-2009, 10:51 AM
I'm going to guess wood planer. I have an unfair advantage though since I've been to Dan's shop. So do I win the Cupie doll? :D

A.K. Boomer
01-22-2009, 10:54 AM
It fits the bill --- tell him he's got some chunks missing on the end blades:p

j king
01-22-2009, 10:55 AM
My guess is a band saw

Evan
01-22-2009, 10:56 AM
7075-T6 is hard on woodworking tools.

Pherdie
01-22-2009, 11:11 AM
I'm going to go out on a limb here, based on the size of the sample and since I think a hint may have been posted ....

How about a wood jointer equipped with a multiple carbide insert cutting head, similar to that sold by Grizzly?

http://www.grizzly.com/products/category.aspx?key=78

dan s
01-22-2009, 11:28 AM
Even got it,

The cut was made with my 4x6 running a 10-14TPI variable pitch bi-metal blade at 120 SFPM, with no cutting fluid.
http://www.dans-hobbies.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jet-5x6-bandsaw.thumbnail.jpg

tony ennis
01-22-2009, 12:32 PM
But can you do it twice? Or is it a fluke?

dan s
01-22-2009, 01:39 PM
The other 3 edges I cut look the same way.

I think if I had hydraulic down feed, flood coolant, and a finer blade, I might be able to get a better finish. I think the key point is the blade, it cost 1/4 what the saw did.

any of you guys with the hydraulic mod and coolant care to give it a shot?


But can you do it twice? Or is it a fluke?

pcarpenter
01-22-2009, 03:46 PM
Without a closeup, it seems a bit odd since a horizontal bandsaw normally makes marks at a varying angle with reference to whatever side is held in the bottom of the vise. That's because it pivots around a point below its bottom wheel. Those all look nice and straight. Did you cut it with the bandsaw vertical?

Paul

dan s
01-22-2009, 03:51 PM
Without a closeup, it seems a bit odd since a horizontal bandsaw normally makes marks at a varying angle with reference to whatever side is held in the bottom of the vise. That's because it pivots around a point below its bottom wheel. Those all look nice and straight. Did you cut it with the bandsaw vertical?

It was cut in horizontal mode, I will steal SWMBO's new camera when I get home, and see if I can't get a big close up to post.

gzig5
01-22-2009, 05:25 PM
Without a closeup, it seems a bit odd since a horizontal bandsaw normally makes marks at a varying angle with reference to whatever side is held in the bottom of the vise. That's because it pivots around a point below its bottom wheel. Those all look nice and straight. Did you cut it with the bandsaw vertical?

Paul

Dan may correct me if I am off base, but it sounds like we are focusing on the wrong surface. I don't think he cut the broad surface that is parallel to the table on with the band saw. But rather the four narrower vertical sides that the picture doesn't show so well. The key for this is his statement that the other three edges look the same. If I'm incorrect, that's one hell of a band saw.:eek:

.RC.
01-22-2009, 06:04 PM
Try this. I made one change that might disclose how the filter works.



I can see them now, although our government's mandatory filtering system is not active yet, and it may not even get off the ground the way public sentiment is over it...

jkilroy
01-22-2009, 06:24 PM
Governments Internet filtering system? Whose government is this?

BillH
01-22-2009, 06:26 PM
Governments Internet filtering system? Whose government is this?
Australia, the same people who banned guns. Don't say the Right Winged Gun Nuts didn't warn ya!

dan s
01-22-2009, 06:30 PM
Dan may correct me if I am off base, but it sounds like we are focusing on the wrong surface. I don't think he cut the broad surface that is parallel to the table on with the band saw. But rather the four narrower vertical sides that the picture doesn't show so well. The key for this is his statement that the other three edges look the same. If I'm incorrect, that's one hell of a band saw.:eek:

No the broad surface was cut as well.

Silverback
01-22-2009, 06:57 PM
what caused the 2 lines across the face?

.RC.
01-22-2009, 07:08 PM
Governments Internet filtering system? Whose government is this?


The current left wing Australian government plans on introducing a mandatory ISP level filtering system, filtering out what the minister calls "unwanted" content...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

Our PM speaks Chinese so you know where he got the idea from...

dan s
01-22-2009, 10:21 PM
OK guys I took some new shots perpendicular to the surface and posted them on my blog. http://www.dans-hobbies.com/

As to what caused the distinct vertical lines, I'm not sure. swaf, blade deflection if anyone has a theory I would be happy to hear it.

Come on guys I'm a little crazy, but no way would I run aluminum through a tool designed for wood.:cool:

jkilroy
01-22-2009, 11:58 PM
I think what looks like vertical lines is actually some condition present in the extrusion, not a side effect of the cut.

Evan
01-23-2009, 12:54 AM
but no way would I run aluminum through a tool designed for wood.

Why not? Wood working bandsaws do a great job on 6061 and similar alloys. It's only the 7000 series that really shouldn't be put through wood working equipment, at least not in the fully treated condition. The 7000 series alloys are harder and stronger than mild steel and will damage most wood working cutting edges but other aluminum alloys can be easily cut using a circular saw, a table saw, a radial arm saw, a bandsaw, a miter saw and especially handy, carbide router bits in a milling machine.

All the corner rounding on this tailstock was done using wood cutting carbide router bits in my milling machine.

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics3/tailstock1.jpg

dan s
01-23-2009, 01:08 AM
Why not? Wood working bandsaws do a great job on 6061 and similar alloys.

I should have made my response a little clearer I would never put aluminum through my planer or jointer, as some had previously suggested.

bj139
01-28-2009, 08:37 AM
The current left wing Australian government plans on introducing a mandatory ISP level filtering system, filtering out what the minister calls "unwanted" content...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

Our PM speaks Chinese so you know where he got the idea from...

Doesn't Australia's history go back to the Magna Carta? Or do certain freedoms only apply to the nobility? Thank God our founders (J. Adams, T. Jefferson) insisted our rights be written down. Makes it more difficult for our future masters to gain complete control. I think it is only a matter of time and chipping away at our rights. I thought slavery was outlawed in 1865?

Evan
01-28-2009, 08:55 AM
I don't think the filter system has much of a future. As soon as it is put in place it will be discovered that it:

A. Doesn't actually stop some really objectionable material.

B. Filters large volumes of entirely legitimate content.

The is no reliable way to filter photographic content by machine. Until and if machines gain true intelligence that will remain the case. There is far too much content to use human filtering.

End result? A large waste of money.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 11:14 AM
Governments Internet filtering system? Whose government is this?The current left wing Australian government plans on introducing a mandatory ISP level filtering system, filtering out what the minister calls "unwanted" content...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Australia

Our PM speaks Chinese so you know where he got the idea from...

Funny how some folks here find it perfectly acceptable that the Chinese government aggressively filters the entire Internet feed going into China (if you Google "Tiananmen Square" from inside China, you get pretty, peaceful pictures of a national park), but when a Democratic nation proposes a much tamer version that filters porn, the same guys are shocked.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 11:22 AM
I don't think the filter system has much of a future. As soon as it is put in place it will be discovered that...

The Chinese Internet censoring works extremely well. They have a blacklist system, where they ban whole subdomains, including (from Harvard):

Sites Blocked in China - Highlights
Empirical Analysis of Internet Filtering in China

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/filtering/china/China-highlights.html

ABC.com
ABC online
Reuters
American Cancer Society (Oh, that's a good one to filter!)
Alta Vista (Unlike Google and Yahoo, they don't collaborate with the Chinese government to implement search filtering)
MIT (Seriously)
MIT Computer Architecture Homepage
MIT EE CS Department
Amnesty International (Duh.)
The Cancer Information Network
CBS.com
Columbia University
George Washington University
LA Times
New York Times
Wall Street Journal
...

and hundreds of thousands of other domains...

Silverback
01-28-2009, 05:14 PM
I don't think the filter system has much of a future. As soon as it is put in place it will be discovered that it:

A. Doesn't actually stop some really objectionable material.

B. Filters large volumes of entirely legitimate content.

The is no reliable way to filter photographic content by machine. Until and if machines gain true intelligence that will remain the case. There is far too much content to use human filtering.

End result? A large waste of money.

You'd be suprised how good the technology is getting.

If you want an example on a purely consumer, superficial level, play around with an iPhone and some of it's available apps, they have all sorts of "take a picture of this and .... " apps. My wife is a librarian and there's a ton of stuff out there that will recognize pictures of books and look them up/crossrefrence them..., there's apps that can compare sizes of items in the picture and give you dimensions based on the known dimensions in the picture, there's an app that you can take a picture of something and it trys to find it for sale on amazon. Or check out the Microsoft photosynth demo...

A lot of these (the iPhone apps) are developed on no budget in their free time. Can you imagine what something like this with millions of government $$$ behind it could do?

Evan
01-28-2009, 05:38 PM
The Chinese Internet censoring works extremely well. They have a blacklist system, where they ban whole subdomains, including (from Harvard):


That is what I mean by doesn't work very well. By doing that huge quantities of legitimate content are blocked. I don't consider that to be working well. The Australian filter is not there to block ideology challenging material, just p0rn and weapons information as far as I know. Blocking entire domains is a sledgehammer approach. Even more effective would be to ban the internet.




You'd be suprised how good the technology is getting.


If it is any good I would be surprised. There is no effective way to tell the difference between a nearly naked female in a perfectly acceptable swimsuit and one that is in a different situation altogether.

The filters are a lot less "smart" than you think. The filtering decision has to be made FAST. The filters don't have the luxury of doing a pattern recognition analysis even if that could be made to work well enough, which is highly unlikely given the abysmal performance of face recognition systems.

Most pron filters look at a photo based on one criteria, the balance of colors in the image. I changed the color image at the head of the thred to a BW image because the plywood in the background has a color value close to that of well tanned skin. I have seen pictures of buildings filtered for that same reason because they were covered in natural wood siding.

If you want to play with such a system on your own computer to see how effective it is there is a free program that attempts to catalog all your images by similarity criteria. Try it and you will see how well the technology works or doesn't work.

http://www.walthelm.net/picture-relate/

Silverback
01-28-2009, 08:31 PM
believe me, orders of magnitude better exists.

Evan
01-28-2009, 09:34 PM
believe me, orders of magnitude better exists.

If there is better I would expect the face recognition systems to work much better than they do. They have been a dismal failure and the industry show a complete lack of understanding of how to deal with it if it is even possible to make it useful. If they can't get it right when it really counts I see no reason to think that content filtering on the net will be any better.

The biggest problem a content filter faces is the issue of letting through undesirable material. To be acceptable it must have essentially a 100 percent accuracy rate, something that is totally impossible. How many nasty porn scenes per month do you think is acceptable in a school or for young children at home?

The record of every internet filter system in operation is at best flawed. I am not offering my opinion, this information is readily available online. Most filter systems simply don't work well enough to justify using them.

For instance, turn on the Google SafeSearch to maximum filtering. Then type in as a search term

pornbb

Then click on the first result it gives and then click on the provided link to the home page. WARNING. If you follow these instructions you will reach a web page that provides explicit sexual content.


Impressive isn't it.

dan s
01-28-2009, 10:09 PM
there's apps that can compare sizes of items in the picture and give you dimensions based on the known dimensions in the picture
be careful with some of this stuff.

Having written a program do something very similar to this (analyzing sail shape), I can tell you that it's not a trivial task, and other factors need to be taken into account. For example distance from the object to the lens, & angle to the lens, both play a significant part in the accuracy of the final results.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 10:16 PM
Evan's right -- there's no way that software is going to recognize porn. It's like a non-annoying Captcha :)

But for what Prime Minister Howard is proposing, you don't need to analyze the pictures, you just blacklist the porn sites themselves. This is why Net Nanny, and Google SafeSearch work so well: the porn sites are all inter-related, and hosted on a set of well-known servers.

Just like FireFox's AdBlock software, you'd just have to update the blacklist once in awhile.

dan s
01-28-2009, 10:21 PM
I think I found it, and it's crap. It's doing rudimentary scaling.

http://iphoneapppodcast.com/ruler-phone-iphone-app-review

gmatov
01-29-2009, 12:39 AM
bj,

Australia's history goes back only a couple hundred years. Magna Carta doesn't apply.

Their population rose greatly when the Founding Fathers of the USA declared Independence.

They could not, or would not, dump more convicts or "undesirables" in "the Colonies", partly because we decided they could not use us as a dumping ground, partly because they would be providing us with more people who had a bone to pick with the Crown.

After that, most of the "Transportees" were shipped to Australia.

The country was populated by what the British Crown considered the worst of the worst. Steal a loaf of bread to feed your young, and get caught, off you go.

His Lordship didn't like you, off you go. England was a nation of petty thieves who were shipped to "Penal Colonies", some with right of return, after X number of years, for which you had to pay the passage fee. Many did not pay the fee and stayed.

Aussies, as I read it, had no love for the British Rule. I THINK they ran the country till about or at least the end of the 19th century. I'll have to read up on that.

Cheers,

George