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madman
01-22-2009, 02:27 PM
I am going to try to build a Automatic Honing machine fior doing my drag Bike Engines, I wanted to build a metal tankm and have the hone supported on a couple of 1 inch dia rods and go Up and Down to preset stops, Is this a Daunting Project? I mean electrical and drive wise> I have no problem making everything bUT the science of the electronics required is baffling me. I am Easilly Baffled as you all Know thanx Mike

dp
01-22-2009, 02:29 PM
You need to ensure some degree of randomness to avoid having the hones follow the same path over and over.

madman
01-22-2009, 05:16 PM
Like a dwell at the bottom and top or a erratic type motion? thanx Mike Any ideas how to do this?

rode2rouen
01-22-2009, 05:53 PM
You will likely be ahead of the game buying a used Sunnen hone.

Check out these, for example:

http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/search_results.aspx?k=1&searchKeyword=hone&searchCategory=&sortExpression=&sortASC=&pageSize=&searchMethod=keyword


Rex

madman
01-23-2009, 11:42 AM
I want to build a Engine Cylinder Hone for honing motorcycle barrels blocks. This would be a vertical type of movement required Thanx

topct
01-23-2009, 03:49 PM
First question.

You can't find an automotive machine shop to do this?

It is a daunting project. Not saying it can't be done, just asking why.

mochinist
01-23-2009, 03:56 PM
You should build a digital camera so you can take some pics of this stuff you always supposedly build/want to build.

lazlo
01-23-2009, 06:05 PM
You will likely be ahead of the game buying a used Sunnen hone.

Check out these, for example:

http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/sub/search_results.aspx?k=1&searchKeyword=hone&searchCategory=&sortExpression=&sortASC=&pageSize=&searchMethod=keyword

Ditto. I bought a Sunnen hone in great condition for around $200. The only problem is collecting the arbors, shoes, and hones themselves for all the incremental sizes.

madman
02-04-2009, 08:23 AM
I wanted to use a sunnen torque plate hone and build a device(machine) that would stroke the hone up and down or even ? in a random manner. I dont like to send out any thing to automotive shops because theyre usually hackers. I was surprised when i saw the auto machinist flatten a cylinder head on a big belt sander, kind of grossed me out. Also if i have to hone out .020 or a lot of material it would be nice to just set it up turn on the coolant and let it run with perhaps a timer to shut it off after a specific time. Thanx every one for the ?? replies.

rode2rouen
02-04-2009, 08:36 AM
Not to put too sharp of a point on it, but if you're "honing" .020" out of a cylinder, you should be working with the guy that puts cylinder heads on the belt sander.

Just my $.02


Rex

digger_doug
02-04-2009, 08:50 AM
Madman,
don't fret the nasayers, it's being done.
Google barnes hone, they are used in industry.

They run up and down on 2 hardened and ground rods.

think "die-set" go get a used one, remove the rods,
get new thompson rod stock to replace, make longer.

Vertical will allow the fixturing you want to do, the
torque plate and such.

Simple "dwell" timer makes the up/down motion stop
at the ends. Aircraft cylinders have "choke" and this is
put in using the dwell feature (at one end).

.020 is common in the sunnen world, they advertise
spending less time boring (just enough to get a true hole),
hone more.

madman
02-04-2009, 09:48 AM
I get lots of Laughs from some of the replies. I dont take them seriously at all. I know the engine shops were honing a lot out of cylinders up to .020 at a time. I was involved in bike racing and i actually never honed that much ever out of my barrels but some guy coming in my shop (can y ou fix this cheap ) LOL yup ill hone the **** out of his barrel no problem, Generally when i do one of my bike engines after liners bored honed i remove the liners and mike them with a small mike and ball bearing all around the periferie to see where the bore went, I find they (the bored liners are usually a bit off) ,Then i index the liner to prevent rod angularity issues and reinstall them into the block in the newly indexed position, I ran 8 second drag bikes back in the eighties and never had too many problems related to out od aligned bores exept once, that came from a reputable speed?? shop in Toronto that 2 guys used to run. I also have a Zeiss cmm (coordinate measuring machine) machine to recheck things which is nice. It seems hard to get any accurate boring work done by local shops here in Kitchener Waterloo. (one Bike shop did a friends engine full house tune?? after he picked it up and had it dynoed at the same place he dynoed it prior to rebuilding it had 14 hiorseopower less??) Basically im saying anything done right tyou have to do yourself it seems. I also considered just boring soft jaws to hold liners and I have made a aBIG boring bar up to bore out liners this way. This year i am gioing to campaign one of my new motrs at the drags. I was happy to see the cmm report on the finished honed block was damn near perfect, But it was a lot of xtra work that local shops dont seem to care much for, just youre money.LOL Long post eh>? Thanx When i finally learn to post pictures with my new 10 meg camera i will have my friend help me and will piost siome of the new things i been building thanx for youre time Mike

madman
02-04-2009, 09:59 AM
Yes thats kind of what i wish to build, I have a friend from Australia he is 77 years old and a Engineer and machine designer. He is going to help me out, He came bye the house the other day to look at my new shop (heating installed now waiting for gas fitters to hook up Hopefully this friday). He was checking out my flow bench im building and some other stuff, He always chuckles when he comes over cause theres always lots of stuff going on. Nice to keep busy, Anyhow i am slowly getting some great ideas and am going to take pictures and post some later on. thanx Mike

lazlo
02-04-2009, 10:12 AM
I wanted to use a sunnen torque plate hone and build a device(machine) that would stroke the hone up and down or even ? in a random manner.

Do even the high-end Sunnen models do that? From the little I've played with my Sunnen, the real art is moving the work across the hone to "feel" where the high-spots are.

When I've seen the big engine hones on the car talk shows, they have a piston that the operator manually moves the hone up and down. I'm guessing they're doing the same thing: feeling where the hone grabs a little.

Carld
02-04-2009, 10:58 AM
madman, how about using hydralics to move the hone up and down. You could use limit switches and manual stops to control travel and control valves to adjust speed of travel.

I don't see a problem with the hone tracking in the same path during the up/down travels. It would be hard to happen with all the random events going on. Besides the hash marks seem to cancel each other out when I have honed cylinders. Even if you think it is happening you can slow the travel on one or the other strokes to eliminate it.

Personally I think hydralics would be easier to make work than an electric screw driven method.

digger_doug
02-04-2009, 11:15 AM
"Do even the high-end Sunnen models do that? From the little I've played with my Sunnen, the real art is moving the work across the hone to "feel" where the high-spots are."

First off I have never run a hone.
That being said I have designed tooling for them and understand
them pretty much, so here goes...

Honing is used to straighten up a bore, and I believe that is
where the "feel" is coming into play.

Honing after precision bore is different. The boring job
straightened things out and cleared up the location errors
(blueprinting).

Sunned makes hones with power stroking, for fully automatic
use.

Yes a cylinder could be used for the stroke, but keep in mind
some people want a definite cross hatch angle, a motor and
screw would be more positive in this respect, but harder
to adjust the stroke length, unless you reverse the motor
at each end.

Reversing the motor will take a moment, and you may not
want any dwell, look at the sunnen powertroke model
for ideas.

hardtail
02-04-2009, 11:47 AM
Sounds like you maybe out for more precision....smile... but the last homeshop one I saw had a bungee cord on a drill press worked pretty good for minimal removal........operator plucked the cord like a loose guitar string

madman
02-04-2009, 12:15 PM
I sure got some cool ideas for my Hone Project, i have 8 blocks to bore hone sitting in my new shop. It will be fun to experiment on other peioples stuff LOL (just kidding) Thanx Mike

PackardV8
02-04-2009, 01:19 PM
madman Mike - an apt sig for this thread ;) and who among us doesn't appreciate a rebel and a creative enginoor? However, JMHO for this idear:

Yes, someone, somewhere has built a working copy of a honing machine.
No, if you have to ask these types of questions, you most likely cannot. Then, you'd have an almost impossible learning curve trying to figure out how to get the cylinder finish and tolerance you want with no data base from which to begin. A commercial hone comes with software built in, an instruction manual and a customer support department. You'd be starting out lost in tall weeds.
Maybe, that you are using the wrong machine shops doesn't mean building a hone is a sane solution. For less than the cost of the time and materials to build a hone or re-fit a bare unit, you can ship to my machinist every motorcycle cylinder you'll ever do for the rest of your life. He will finish them perfectly. You'll get back a round, cylindrical jug to the tenth you specify and at a reasonable cost.

Bottom line, there is a time to be independent and creative, but this isn't it. Put down the pencil, step away from the drawing board and let technology and experience work FOR you when you need professional honing.

thnx, jack vines

madman
02-04-2009, 02:25 PM
I appreciate the advice quite sound but i want one for my shop. I will see how things go and take pictures as i go along Lawrence my old engineer friend is quite sharp and whatever he can draw up i can make .Thats how it works, i kmnow im not the brightest guy but i always get things done even when everyone said it couldnt ,Like my fixture for holding 6 ground rods for flat milling. It is still used daily in a production shop and well it works i dont see a hone being a big deal just figuring out the stroke mechanics Bungee Cords Sure great i like that. Later gotta woek.

digger_doug
02-04-2009, 02:25 PM
Jack,
where is your location?
you tell him to stop this project and farm it out, yet
he has already indicated he has tried his local shops,
at his location (which he has given).

"A commercial hone comes with software built in, an instruction manual and a customer support department. You'd be starting out lost in tall weeds."

Sunnen makes several hones, some do not have software...

PackardV8
02-04-2009, 03:12 PM
If it came across as too harsh, I apologize. I was just trying to give some perspective on the cost/benefits of a shop-built hone.

FWIW, I came up through the drill-motor-on-a-bungee-cord days and have done a hundred blocks that way. Today's bore finishes and dimensional control the good Sunnen and Rottler commercial hones put out is infinitely superior to any we got by hand in the bad old days.

AFAIK, all the recent Sunnen honing cabinets have a meter, which I think measures both motor amps and cylinder pressure to feel/measure the hone working in the bores. They have a program which reacts to loose/tight spots and while working, gives a visual readout of how the bore is reacting to the hone. It also can be set for additional dwell time at the bottom or anywhere along the bore. A good operator can end up with a perfectly cylindrical bore and the degree of smoothness you want every time.

Yes, maddog Mike, with your talent and spirit you maybe can build a machine which will move stones through a cylinder, but why re-invent the wheel? I'm in Spokane, WA and five major rebuilder shops here have gone out of business within the past three years and it is this way across the country. The market is literally awash with good used honing cabinets at dirt-cheap prices. One broker I know in Seattle has quit buying because his warehouse is full of unsold used equipment. I've been doing this for forty years and have done my share of shop-built machinery/equipment. I don't see any way to build just the machinery for less than today's cost of a good used hone, then, I wouldn't know where to begin to try to duplicate the controls and software which make all the difference in getting a state-of-the-art cylinder finish. Then, you've got to tool it up. The diamond stones, shoes and all the tooling which comes with a used hone is a major expense.

You did come here for opinions/advice. but as always, your shop, your money, your decision. We'll all learn something from your progress.

thnx, jack vines

madman
02-04-2009, 05:27 PM
I appreciate youre Opinion. You probably are correct, at times i go off half cocked so to speak, I have made all types of thuings that at times still sit idle,, BUT i want to do some basic honing work on my rag bike engines. I figure if i use the right stones and build a nice flat surface to mount stuff on it may work for me. I have looked at buying Hone ing machines but they are very expensive. Thanx all for the valuable advice and No Jack i didnt think it was too harsh i never liked people ***** footing around and giving me Bull**** so to speak LOL I like a straight opinion thanx again Mike

lazlo
02-04-2009, 05:32 PM
"A commercial hone comes with software built in, an instruction manual and a customer support department. You'd be starting out lost in tall weeds."

Sunnen makes several hones, some do not have software...

This is my Sunnen. No software :)

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/d616_1.jpg

Rustybolt
02-04-2009, 06:53 PM
I've used sunnen hones for years with the power stroke feature. Providing you could get one in good shape for a reasonable amount of money, the tooling would break you, Especially the large bore stuff. Price their CBN metal matrix stones.
I like your idea. Are you gong to come up with a way to adjust tension while it is moving, or just use heavy springs on the stones?

madman
02-04-2009, 11:36 PM
Well sure a lot of opinions ,thats Great. I think back in the days when cylinders were honed out by hand and with a drill and some kerosene flowing over it, OR a fixture where bottom of stroke the hone would dip into a pot of oil (saw the xr 750 harley racers do this) Anyhow i dont want to reinvent the wheel i just want to use a cheaper torque plate hone and have it go up and down. Thats it. I will be building one for my small Motorcycle shop. Remember its called the HOME SHOP yup thats me Home SHOP GUY doing stuff at HOME even though i probably shouldnt be. Lucky for me I have so many smart people to help out a dumb ass like myself LOL thanx Mike

JoeFin
02-04-2009, 11:41 PM
I mean electrical and drive wise> I have no problem making everything bUT the science of the electronics required is baffling me. I am Easilly Baffled as you all Know thanx Mike

Ebay is the cheapest source for micro processors and full blown PLCs. A few sensors and limit switches and they can do the job effortlessly. Just be sure you have a dealer willing to sell the programming software before you buy. Idec and Mitsubishi micro processors have inexpensive software

brucepts
02-05-2009, 12:14 AM
Mike, there are a couple of posts on my forum (which you are already a member of) about DIY built hones. A couple guys are building them in various sizes.

I'm working on one for my single cylinder engines. A guy in AU built a large power stroke one for 8 cylinder engines and posted his pics.

doctor demo
02-05-2009, 02:42 AM
Hi Mike, I read all the posts and am wondering why everybody that is for You trying this build want to use switches and hydraulics... etc. , why not just use the same principal as is used on the average every day shaper for adjusting the length of stroke? It seems to Me that it would be quick and easy to do , and fairly cheap to boot.

Steve

digger_doug
02-05-2009, 07:18 AM
"why not just use the same principal as is used on the average every day shaper for adjusting the length of stroke"

Probably because it's not linear. It speed up and slows down
along it's path because it's a crank mechanism.
Yes it's been optimized with that arm (the vertical piece),
and the horizontal bar as well, but it still has limitations.

madman
02-05-2009, 05:06 PM
I spoke with my engineer today. He was asking me about the hone pattern I required and i said (usually i read the informatuion that comes with the piston ring kit,)60 degrees to 45 degrees, he then said he had to think about it how to get the desired crosshatch pattern in the bores. I didnt even think this was a problem but?? controlling the feed ?? does that not control the hatch angles or hone pattern on the cyklinder walls? DUH what do i know not much LoL thanx Guys.

Rustybolt
02-05-2009, 07:28 PM
Something like an arm that holds a bushing that the rotating shaft rides in and at the other end of the arm a cam like an elipse or an oval that rotates and determines the crosshatch and depth. Different cams for different patterns.

madman
02-08-2009, 04:32 PM
How bout adjustable feed and rpm tweek till you get desired hatch pattern,. It seems everyone makes things so complicated???

madman
01-14-2010, 08:13 PM
Been looking for a good cheap used one LOl Mike In meantime have a homemade tank and old sioux drill and manual hone.

gnm109
01-14-2010, 08:50 PM
This is my Sunnen. No software :)

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/d616_1.jpg


That's the only kind of Sunnen Hone I've seen. A friend operates a small independent motorcycle machine shop and does lot of Harley-Davidson and BMW work. He uses his hone more than any other tool in the shop. Virtually everything on a Harley is rebuildable with a hone. His is a hand-operated type where he moves the parts back and forth on the arbor while reading the dial indicator.

He uses the Sunnen for his honing work and also a Van Norman boring bar for boring cylinders.

If I were the OP I would be looking for a used Sunnen Hone.

madman
01-14-2010, 10:18 PM
Yer my research (which doesnt mean squat) has shown a vertical Hone is superior? I feel also it is. There is less ovality caused by gravity(the cylinder in question actually hanging on the Horizontal Honing Mandrel Makes sense to even me) Secondly a Vertical Hone (NOT the cheap ass Motorcycle Hones that show the cylinder on top of the bar so all the chips fall into the cylinders boreing head assembly and you increase thrice fold the chip load as chips drop into youre machined bore and bore head assembly) Building a Hone that is automated involves a lot of stuff xpensive components,. A good understanding of electrical and ??(which i dont profess skills at) Yet i feel a vertical hone with a good coolant oil flow will wash out the crud from the cylinders., then running or pumping the oil through a dual chev engine oil filter unit shouls (along with filter paper in the bottom of the tank) get rid of a lot of the swarf so to speak. I hope to find a used power stroke hone reasonably soon as I have my new shop coming along nicely and just need a couple more things. Thanx to all for the Cynisism (did i spell that right LOL)the critissism and the also great advice.I enjoyed all of it. Oh for the one or two weird negative comments (Like make a digital camera I have to laugh if you did half the stuff I do youd be too busy to do any negative stupid comments) I just wish to say Sucks to be you but i wish you well you obviously need some well wishes going youre way .

tdmidget
01-14-2010, 10:38 PM
Madman I agree, vertical is the way to go. This may sound crazy but what if you stroke it with the kind if screw found on level-winds for bait casting reels and winches? It appears to auto reverse and you could drive the screw with a vfd or DC motor for speed control. You could also put variable speed on the spindle. With a pump and filter flow oil constantly you should be able to fine tune stroke and speed to get any angle and finish.
The other secret seems to be to learn exactly what stones to use. You mentioned honing .020. That's a lot but with the right stones you could take that out in 20 minutes or less, no problem.

rbjscott
01-14-2010, 11:06 PM
A lot of folks belt sand heads. Auio machine shop supplyers sell the belt sanders. .020 is a lot to hone!!

Glenn Wegman
01-14-2010, 11:24 PM
What size bore?

EVguru
01-15-2010, 05:11 AM
When you've finished, plateau hone.

chrisfournier
01-15-2010, 11:57 AM
I work (presently laid off) at a cycle shop in Kitchener Waterloo and we have a boring bar and a vertical hone. The service ain't expensive but the tooling to undertake it sure is.

I did a fair bit of this work and other machining operations as well as running our dyno. I am by no means a seasoned veteran but I have a few comments. I have never flattened a head on a sander - I sure have on a milling machine. I have botched a job here and there... Those are my real world credentials.

.020 is a job for the boring bar, plain and simple. Honing .020 and ending up with anything usefully round that isn't hour-glassed or bell mouthed, or just follows the natural flexion of the cylinder design would be incredibly time consuming if not impossible. To work to "tenths" on cylinder honing we would like to leave say .0025 material from the boring bar to be honed. While honing the .0025 we would likely have to use our dial bore guage a dozen times to check progress. .020 to hone would be like a death sentence.

The cross hatch pattern is a result of the oscillating speed of the hone in the bore which you can set on the machine and over-ride manually as needed - dwell. Your only other control is how hard you "push the stones".

The 14 horsepower loss anicdote means nothing to me and should mean as much to you. Are you attributing the loss to the cylinder boring and honing? 14 ponies is a HUGE loss and it would be hard to attribute it to the dyno operator alone but horsepower changes with every dyno run depending an a multitude of factors. Is it not more likely that the performance work done on this engine was ill concieved and the performance loss was due to bad game plan or poor execution? If the shop that did the cylinder work didn't put the engine together the fault lies elsewhere. When you get cylinders back you do check them for spec with a bore guage and spring guages right? The only time I've seen a 14 plus pony loss on a rebuilt engine on the dyno was when the builder didn't phase a cam on the rear cylinder correctly - 20 degrees out.

Again I am no guru but I read and listen to people who talk about engine work and they usually have one tidbit of information that they cling to as the core of their approach. Most often though this is not enough and they don't have a solid foundation of theory to really operate with in order to get the "best" results.

And one last thing. I can't tell you how many times a customer has questioned the machining work that our shop did "you guys are out .008" what's this sh*t?" Naturally we've inspected the work prior to calling the customer to come pick it up and our response is "how'd you measure that and where?" The answers are pretty funny some times but measuring with feeler guages and digital calipers at the wrong end of pistons is common. If someone is going to critisize a shops work they better have the tools to measure properly - they rarely do...

Dawai
01-15-2010, 12:15 PM
One of the main reasons you do it yourself is because you are dissatisfied with the cost and quality others put into your high dollar parts.

.020 is a job for a boring bar. The last few thou is fitting pistons. I still send my stuff out, but was unhappy with the last job. He did not fit the KB pistons the way I told him to.. they were Loose.. I called him.. he said he did me a favor by not doing what I asked. Okay.. I did him a favor by taking my money elsewhere. Also, a shadow in the bore, meaning.. it was egged. Not enough time spent centering the kwikway boring bar.

Of course, instead of jap timepieces, I work on tractor motors. I tore down one recently that had .120 bore clearance. (yep.. you read that right)

madman
01-15-2010, 01:56 PM
Anyhow this .020 honeing. Old guys from engine shops would hone out .020 thou all the time ,now with the internet and everyone being a total pro on any subject overnight without ever having built engines or done much of anything but geek out on the computer mouth off whatever ,,good for them ,,they need a hobby to. Also the guys who read all the stupid magazine articles that say you cant do this you cant do that , and they dont do nothin either LOL. Some shops do good work ,,some **** work but bottom line if you want to and can do it yourself you can ensure its done right. Period. I dont like any one doing any Machining for me with the exception of a few (and theyre not around this Province) I Have had engine stuff done at shops. Had a new set of barrels come from the headquarters ( out .009 thou Oversized ?? Checked with bore gauge , now these (barrels and new pistons) sit in a pile in basement in a Box. You always hear of a mistake here or a mistake made by him whatever again The main thing is do it yourself if you are into that type of thing and if you screw up you deal with it not pay and get reamed for it also. These guys screw up stuff and dont believe you can measure anything properly, well buddy i work to tolerances you cant even understand, Anyhow this honing .020 is not for guys who can bore accurately .Best thing just follow sunnen recomendations they are the Pros. Dont reinvent the Wheel and finally The only reason i want to build a Honing Machine is because im not spending 15 large or even 5 grand on a used on period, if i have to and so far after dropping big dollars in my new bike hobby shop, i will hand hone my stuff in my homemade Tank (yup got a tank made) and once i finish my torque plates and grind them flat i will be honing away while havin a beer if required <Yup i may leave .020 thou and see how it all works out first for me but eventually a couple or so thou should be The way to go, i always hated honing> LOL Mike the Mad Honer

Mcgyver
01-15-2010, 02:02 PM
Old guys from engine shops would hone out .020 thou all the time ,

that's how they got old, waiting to hone 20 thou.

sorry Mike, couldn't resist, I've seen your stuff so wouldn't bet against ya on it :D

madman
01-15-2010, 02:07 PM
By the way Customers can really suck.

madman
05-11-2010, 02:05 PM
98% percent of people who hone bore cylinders dont have a rats ass how to check if the damn Jobs even straight?? Laugh if you may but ive asked machine shop guys who bore Hundreds of cylinders for harleys and other stuff and they all say oh the machine is set up perfect? I just Laugh at them. Theres a few ways of checking straight bores honing but 99 percent dont know PERIOD. At least the guys who will bore youre cylinders hone them and act all apalled when you ask them a few questions? I recall a couple of ?Famous?(well in there own feeble minds ) peoople who did work for me on some Cylinders years ago. Well Mr (name witheld out of respect) bored mine .0035 off centre and non perpendicular? He was suposed to be the best in the Twin Cities???? Anyhow if you want something done right do it yourself I say cause no one can do it proper like I can in my own shop/ Period./ Nuff said

Deja Vu
05-11-2010, 02:42 PM
When i finally learn to post pictures with my new 10 meg camera i will have my friend help me and will piost siome of the new things i been building thanx for youre time Mike


Did you? I mean, learn to post pictures with your camera? Have you posted elsewhere? I'd like to see some....always like pictures.

hardtail
05-11-2010, 07:30 PM
What did you use previously??

Why 20 thou, usually 10 gets you to the next choice, then if you play w cast/forged/hyperetic sp? the possibilities are usually less material removed.

I can understand the want for building a nice dedicated machine but 10 thou and less puts you in portable hone territory...........

U running an inline 4?

.RC.
05-12-2010, 07:27 AM
You need to ensure some degree of randomness to avoid having the hones follow the same path over and over.

Or just a device wherby the same path is not followed very often....

For example sprockets in chain drives often use a prime number, that way the same tooth will only contact the same roller of the chain very very rarely..

oldtiffie
05-12-2010, 08:47 AM
Same in some gear trains Ringer. It is called a "hunting tooth".

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=hunting+tooth+principle&aq=1&aqi=g6g-m2&aql=&oq=hunting+tooth&gs_rfai=&fp=34c15f6958ae75f1