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hornluv
01-26-2009, 11:50 AM
From searching the archives, it seems that Enco doesn't do free shipping on surface plates. How much does the truck shipping end up costing and what is the delivery time like compared to UPS shipping from Enco? When they say "Truck Shipping" in the catalog do they mean that a semi is going to pull up in front of my house just to drop off a 12x18 surface plate?

Thanks,
Stuart

Teenage_Machinist
01-26-2009, 11:53 AM
I am pretty sure the smallest 2 sizes are UPSable. But I'm not certain.

saltmine
01-26-2009, 12:03 PM
I'm pretty sure UPS has a 70lb limit on packages, especially on residential delivery....If I were to order a surface plate, I'd check to see how much it weighs before ordering. UPS will deliver items over 70lbs but there's a surcharge. When I worked at a parts store, we had to use regular commercial shipping if we wanted something like an engine block or a transmission...but, we did use UPS for almost everything else.

kmccubbin
01-26-2009, 12:04 PM
I just received a 12 x 18 via UPS

Kerry

Just Bob Again
01-26-2009, 12:08 PM
12x18 qualifies for free shipping. I just bought one last month. Bigger ones go by truck.

If you have a loading dock, it comes on a semi. For residential (a surcharge for that) it comes on a smaller box truck. 16 or 20 foot usually. You have to unload it. You can get liftgate for another surcharge. Then they put it on the ground for you. Base shipping should be around $50 unless you're getting a 1-ton item. Another $50 for residential and another for liftgate. I never got a truck shipment from enco in specific, but from many others. You have to call and ask for the rates. They vary. Could be anywhere from $50 on up, depending on weight and carrier and etc.

softtail
01-26-2009, 12:19 PM
I've been toying with getting a 3x4' plate for a while now. They are soo damn cheap at Enco. Anyways, you can go through the whole checkout process to the point where it tells you how much truck shipping is.

Does anyone know if they will drop it off at a depot?

At some point a few years ago, either Enco, or Rutland had a crazy sale on all sizes of plates AND free shipping. I should have jumped on that.

dan s
01-26-2009, 12:40 PM
Stuart,

As others have said, you should be able to get the 12x18 delivered for free via ups.

I plan on picking one up myself once I get the mill up and running.

Frank Ford
01-26-2009, 01:05 PM
Last year I ordered three 12 x 18 plates from Enco using the free ship code. Next day I got a call from the order desk, and was asked, "Since the total weight exceeds the UPS limit, do you mind if we use three separate boxes so you'll get the free shipping?"

Recently, I see the "truck shipping" sign on the catalog listing for surface plates, and I assumed it meant they quit the deal. I ordered and received free shipping on a 9 x 12, so I'm glad to see the deal is still there for the smaller granites.

dan s
01-26-2009, 01:10 PM
I ordered and received free shipping on a 9 x 12, so I'm glad to see the deal is still there for the smaller granites.

going to use it as a lapping plate for small parts? I've noticed a lot of the small ones get used for this.

hornluv
01-26-2009, 02:09 PM
12x18 qualifies for free shipping. I just bought one last month.

Well that's perfect. Thanks guys!

BillH
01-26-2009, 03:29 PM
My 12x18 chinese tombstone should be in today via free shipping.

Frank Ford
01-26-2009, 07:09 PM
going to use it as a lapping plate for small parts? I've noticed a lot of the small ones get used for this.

Yes, indeed. I've used other surfaces, but I like the solidity of the granite plate, and those prices are really attractive.

We use 12x18 granite with abrasive paper in the guitar repair shop for flattening small pieces of wood, bone, ivory, pearl, etc.

I drilled them and inserted magnets to use steel strips to hold the paper in place - here's the deal:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Magnets/GraniteFlatMagnets/graniteflatmag.html

Bill Pace
01-26-2009, 07:33 PM
Ah, Frank and his magnets, now there is a love affair;) -- and thank goodness for it, I now have quite an "attraction":rolleyes: (groan!) for them myself....

Another great tip Frank, just may have to try that, thanks.

hornluv
01-28-2009, 03:34 PM
I got my 12 x 18 surface plate today, WITH free shipping. Unfortunately, it had been dropped (not surprising considering the weight) and one corner had broken off. Most of the surface is still usable and all, but it's still damaged goods. After a call to Enco, they're sending out another one to replace it and told me to just keep the broken one, so by the end of the week I shall find myself with two surface plates and one pissed off UPS guy with a sore back :D

Should I bother trying to glue the corner back on, and if so, what type of adhesive should I use?

DENedbalek
01-28-2009, 03:53 PM
If it were me (and I just got a 12x18 from Enco also) I'd borrow a wet saw, cut the bad corner off, and then cut the remains in half or fourths. Then I'd have a 12x18 when I needed it and something much smaller and useful for "most" needs.

Dwayne

lazlo
01-28-2009, 03:57 PM
We use 12x18 granite with abrasive paper in the guitar repair shop for flattening small pieces of wood, bone, ivory, pearl, etc.

I drilled them and inserted magnets to use steel strips to hold the paper in place - here's the deal:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Magnets/GraniteFlatMagnets/graniteflatmag.html

Very cool Frank! I've been using 3M lapping paper (basically, very fine sandpaper with very, very uniform backing) with a very thin coat of oil to keep the paper in contact with the Chinese tombstone.

The magnets in the holes looks like a great idea.

dan s
01-28-2009, 03:59 PM
so by the end of the week I shall find myself with two surface plates and one pissed off UPS guy with a sore back :D

Well that's his fault for dropping the first one. IMO he is a sissy man if he can't lift 80lbs, as 80lbs is not that heavy.:D:D

lazlo
01-28-2009, 04:04 PM
Enco (MSC) usually has good customer service, but good grief -- their packing handlers should be shot.

Heavy stuff like granite surface plates, heavy cast iron angle plates, etc, they usually just throw bare in a cardboard box without any extra packing. When it shows up broken, they blame UPS.

I ordered 100 lbs of drill rod from them last month, and they literally threw it in a 4" x 4" cardboard box with no reinforcement. Not surprisingly, very little of it made it to Austin. Enco insisted on filing a UPS claim, even though I stated repeatedly that the drop-out was Enco's fault, and not UPS...

Dave P.
01-28-2009, 04:06 PM
so by the end of the week I shall find myself with two surface plates
You might find yourself with 2 broken ones and yet another on order.
Never under estimate the power of Brown!
Dave P.

dan s
01-28-2009, 04:23 PM
Stuart,

You should insist on checking the box when the ups man drops it off. if it's messed up again, i would refuse shipment and insist ups handles it.

pcarpenter
01-28-2009, 04:27 PM
I would guess that the apparent change in policy with regard to which sizes still go by UPS may also have to do with damage rates.

This may be a long story, but it has a point: I recently bought a carbide grinder at the Indianapolis location of Wholesale Tool. The one on display was like the one in the sale flyer and was made in Taiwan and looked well made. It came with a couple of *white* (Alox) wheels and looked better made than the one I returned to HF a year ago. I left from there for my 4 hour trip back home with my new grinder (we were near there visiting family). When I got home, I noticed as I was pulling the box out that it said "Made in China". I know the Chinese/Tiwanese thing is over-generalized, but this thing looked like crap...much worse than the HF models and far worse than the one in the picture. Paint was a different color and the playdough they used to fill major voids had thumbprints in it. I called and the sales dweeb had the nut sack to ask me why I hadn't noticed it while there. I told him it was not my responsibility to inspect their merchandise for them and to make up for their choice to substitute product and that their guy insisted on loading it in my truck so I never handled the box. My Dad had suggested that I should have told them that if they had not shut the store lights off 10 minutes before they close, maybe I could have seen the writing on the box:rolleyes: People who start closing the store before it closes pi$s me off. If you really don't want to work there, leave. These are tough times and someone will want your job...but I digress.

Anyhow, in negotiating how the return would be handled they actually said that even though its "in weight" they don't like to use UPS since they tend to break heavy items like that. I agreed and remarked to myself that I have watched UPS delivery morons drop heavy boxes of stuff on my front porch from waist height. That won't work well with even reasonably well packed cast iron--and certainly not well with a piece of rock like a surface plate.

The WT guy actually had the gall to suggest that I drive it back and I told them that I would not be making an 8 hour round trip to return it and offered to just wait until I head that way again. They went and found a Tiwan made one in the box and after they conferred with the manager, they put a note on it granting me the ability to exchange after the 30 day return window because of the circumstances. I don't have a grinder in the mean time, but I suppose they could spend the entire cost of the grinder to ship me a new one and pay for the return of the other. I want to be reasonable and I am also realistic enough to know that the customer always pays for the costs of the business. However, all of this is because UPS uses (poorly) trained monkeys. With DHL having laid off thousands, its time for UPS to let the booger-eating-moron slackers go and hire someone who wants to work and who knows how to handle packages. Maybe they should invest in truck mounted cameras like the cops use so they can see their staff at work.

Paul

pcarpenter
01-28-2009, 04:38 PM
P. S. I would not glue the corner on as that non-flat corner might get used that way. With the corner missing, you know to avoid it. I have an 18x24 AA Starrett Crystal Pink plate with a ding or two at the outside edge where someone used a fork lift to move it. I got it for $25 and it would have been around $450 new but for the chips missing. Their loss, my gain.

I would relegate the old one to use with wet-or-dry paper as Frank mentions. I have done that before on a piece of glass for putting a finish on aluminum and also for honing plane blades etc. A nice flat surface plate should be even better. Having a separate one for that use is nice since getting silicon carbide imbedded all over in the granite voids is a great way to put wear on all your tooling used on the plate...not to mention the plate.

Paul

Your Old Dog
01-29-2009, 09:02 AM
They shipped me a 12x18 for free but I had a large order.

hornluv
01-29-2009, 10:57 AM
Stuart,

You should insist on checking the box when the ups man drops it off. if it's messed up again, i would refuse shipment and insist ups handles it.

Unfortunately, I wasn't here when he dropped it off. He tends to come when I'm out to lunch or picking my wife up from work. Even if I am here, he just drops the package off and leaves. He doesn't even ring the doorbell.

BTW, the weight listed in the catalog is 80lbs for the 12 x 18 with two ledges, but the tracking email Enco sent said the shipping weight was only 68lbs, so I guess they fudge it in the catalog to cover their butt. The packaging was crap, consisting of the original box inside a much larger box with some of those air bags thrown in for the illusion of padding. Half of them were popped.

Paul Alciatore
01-29-2009, 11:08 AM
Very cool Frank! I've been using 3M lapping paper (basically, very fine sandpaper with very, very uniform backing) with a very thin coat of oil to keep the paper in contact with the Chinese tombstone.

The magnets in the holes looks like a great idea.

Lazlo, two questions: Where do you get the 3M lapping paper?

I would assume this is not as good as conventional lapping with loose abrasive. How flat can you get something using this technique?

lazlo
01-29-2009, 11:41 AM
Lazlo, two questions: Where do you get the 3M lapping paper?

Ebay. It's very expensive stuff used in the semiconductor industry (among others). It's basically like a replaceable diamond lapping wheel.

lazlo
01-29-2009, 11:44 AM
Stuart,

You should insist on checking the box when the ups man drops it off. if it's messed up again, i would refuse shipment and insist ups handles it.

Most of Enco's shipping debacles are not because of UPS. They're because of very sloppy packing on Enco's part.

When I got my 12x18 surface plate from Enco, it was thrown into a large box with no peanuts, or air bags. Same deal with the 75 lb tilting angle plate.

Bill Pace
01-29-2009, 12:05 PM
I agree that in this instance (ENCO) packing for large/heavy items is the pits .. my 12x18 plate was also just put in a double cardboard box and there was little of it left on arrival, though the plate made it OK.

But, UPS also just plain sucks, these people could tear up an anvil! and their delivery times are the pits, and then theres the policy of just sitting (dropping) your package off with no effort to even ring the doorbell, Ive had a couple time when a rain shower has come up and not knowing a package was there it gets wet! then, their rates seem to go up every few weeks.

Then theres Fedex ... here in this neck of the woods they give far superior service, speedy delivery including Sat, ---and they ring the doorbell on delivery.

But, to me, the clear winner is USPS, yep the good ole post office -- rarely damage anything, excellent delivery times, their prices are definitely good,--- and they ring the doorbell too! Just too bad they wont carry the heavier stuff.

hornluv
01-29-2009, 12:20 PM
Amen about the USPS! Free boxes for Priority shipping, you always know what they'll cost, the click-n-ship feature on the website for printing shipping labels (which gives you free delivery confirmation, BTW). They're all a big time and money saver.

pcarpenter
01-29-2009, 12:40 PM
Most of Enco's shipping debacles are not because of UPS. They're because of very sloppy packing on Enco's part.

When I got my 12x18 surface plate from Enco, it was thrown into a large box with no peanuts, or air bags. Same deal with the 75 lb tilting angle plate.

I dunno that I can agree totally since proper packing for something like a big piece of granite is *not* peanuts or air bags. Either of them could easily crush and then allow the item far more room to move in its packing than it should have. Sometimes with big heavy items like that, proper packaging is just heavy cardboard that fits tight against the item in question. Loose packaging allows big heavy items to shift and break themselves out of a box. The truth be told, something like a granite surface plate really ought to ship in a plywood crate made to fit as its weight will make it abrade cardboard at the corners and once the skin is torn on corrugated cardboard, it looses its strength. Of course, even that would not allow a goon to drop it from waist high (which I watched a UPS driver do). If its heavy and doesn't rattle, I think they must assume that makes it strong, allowing them to drop it.

Enco has a bad habit of assuming that the packaging from the supplier of the product is somehow adequate and Chinese cardboard sucks for big heavy items. I know this sounds silly to blame poor packaging on cardboard, but the Chinese don't make very good cardboard. Several of my woodworking machines came in sub-assemblies in *decent* cardboard boxes with fitted styrofoam and were in good shape in spite of having hundreds of pounds of cast iron etc. inside of cardboard.


Edit-- I can't help but notice that "fragile" almost never appears on Chinese tooling boxes. I know its often over used and might be ignored by pinheads, but "fragile" on a box for something like a surface plate might help counter the "its heavy therefore it must be strong" thinking. The only heavy item I have ordered in the last year or so from Enco was a tilting table and it too suffered from roughing up its own box. This occurred before they shipped it to me because it was inside another box. As an aside, I had *McMaster-Carr* ship me a broken slip stone becaue they tossed it loose in a box with several boxes of heavy nuts and set screws!! They made good on it with no questions asked, but I figured they were smarter than that. A stone is as fragile as a coffee cup.
Paul

dan s
01-29-2009, 01:28 PM
Usually when I have large or fragile things shipped, I request that they are shipped "Adult Signature required (http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/shipping/time/service/value_added/delivery.html)". This has saved me from door step shipping surprises on several occasion.

lazlo
01-29-2009, 01:37 PM
But, UPS also just plain sucks, these people could tear up an anvil!

But, to me, the clear winner is USPS, yep the good ole post office -- rarely damage anything, excellent delivery times, their prices are definitely good,--- and they ring the doorbell too! Just too bad they wont carry the heavier stuff.

Geez, you have a lot better Postal Service than we do in Texas!

There's a trail of drop-out metal cutoffs running from all over the the U.S. Post Offices to the Austin Post Office :) My experience has been that USPS is much rougher with packages, especially heavy Flat-Rate packages, than UPS. Unless a heavy Flat-Rate box is heavily reinforced, and wrapped with at least 3 layers of packing tape, it usually doesn't make it to Central Texas.

Also, our Postmen usually won't bother to bring heavy packages to our door -- they'll leave a brown "You weren't home" slip and make me drive out to the Post Office to pick it up, even though my wife is home all day.

And then there's the auto signatures that a lot of the mailmen are doing: it's apparently too much trouble to knock on your door and actually get a signature for Priority Mail and/or Delivery Confirmation, so they just mark the package as signed-for, and if you're lucky, they'll put it in a mailbox somewhere that you may or may not find...

lazlo
01-29-2009, 01:42 PM
I dunno that I can agree totally since proper packing for something like a big piece of granite is *not* peanuts or air bags. Either of them could easily crush and then allow the item far more room to move in its packing than it should have. Sometimes with big heavy items like that, proper packaging is just heavy cardboard that fits tight against the item in question.

Agreed, but that's not what Enco does: they take the 12x18 surface plate, which is wrapped in thin cardboard, and throw it in an oversize cardboard box, where it tumbles around every time you move the box.

I'm guessing the Enco shipping room is separate from the MSC shipping room, because when I buy stuff from MSC (the parent company), it's usually very well packed, and I've never had a problem with drop-outs on MSC shipments.

There's a frequent conspiracy theory mentioned here, that Enco shipping is so slow to differentiate it from the MSC free next day shipping. Maybe their package handling is superior for the MSC orders for the same reason...

RPease
01-29-2009, 01:51 PM
Got my 12x18 the other day. UPS free shipping.

Same box in box with a little crumbled paper for packing.........but surface plate was undamaged.........no problems.

In 10 minutes was mounted and ready for cracking walnuts or using to mark off a scribe line on my latest project...........whichever comes first.......:D

Rodg

dan s
01-29-2009, 02:01 PM
And then there's the auto signatures that a lot of the mailmen are doing: it's apparently too much trouble to knock on your door and actually get a signature for Priority Mail and/or Delivery Confirmation, so they just mark the package as signed-for, and if you're lucky, they'll put it in a mailbox somewhere that you may or may not find...

I hope some people are getting fired for that b.s. Wouldn't that be considered illegal if it was some type of official document?

mlucek
01-30-2009, 03:15 PM
Check out :

http://www.unitedpackagesmashers.com/

Message forums :

http://www.unitedpackagesmashers.com/smf/index.php

For some wild tales of UPS mistreating packages. Some pretty funny and pathetic stories there.

pcarpenter
01-30-2009, 04:17 PM
I'm guessing the Enco shipping room is separate from the MSC shipping room, because when I buy stuff from MSC (the parent company), it's usually very well packed, and I've never had a problem with drop-outs on MSC shipments.

I wonder if the issues you have had are based on where it ships from? I am in Illinois and one of Enco's midwest locations is in Indiana. I have ordered stuff one afternoon and had it the next day, shipped ground and properly packaged. In fact, I can't point to a bad shipment from them. I was always impressed that even the "free shipping" ended up including a lot of care. One thing that impressed me the most was the raw materials orders....I have ordered threaded rod, drill rod and some aluminum and brass rod at various times when it was on sale. They really have to tape up the tube for 6' lengths of bar stock and never a one had punched through. 3' lengths of threaded rod came in a shorter tube with the end cardboarded and heavily taped.

Who knows....my last order from KBC (also part of the same company) was several years back....the packaging there was good too...but I don't remember it being any better.

Paul

lazlo
01-30-2009, 04:32 PM
I have ordered stuff one afternoon and had it the next day, shipped ground and properly packaged. In fact, I can't point to a bad shipment from them.

Wow, that's weird -- have you ordered any surface plates, or the heavy angle plates from them? Everyone that I've heard that's gotten them, including the various posters on this thread, have gotten them thrown loose inside an oversized cardboard box.

The drill rod fiasco I had last month is recent. All the bar stock I've purchased from Enco in the past was in those heavy round mailer tubes with the metal end caps, but the order last month was shipped bare in a single-layer 4x4 cardboard rectangle, and amusingly, it took them three attempts to replace the missing drill rod: each time, they would ship more drill rod thrown loose in another 4x4 box, and most of that shippment would drop out, and they'd file another UPS claim,...

It was as if I was getting drill rod from Enco in a geometrically decreasing sequence :D

pcarpenter
01-30-2009, 05:00 PM
The only heavier cast iron thing I have ordered was a cast iron pivoting angle plate maybe 30# and that was about a year ago. It's fine. I suppose the attention to detail may be a function of individual employees and that may be explained by where we each live. I would guess most of your stuff ships from Nevada??

Who knows...but you would think that they would learn after the first two attempts with regard to the box. The last two batches of drill rod did come in one of those long rectangular boxes and still made it OK. The ends end up being a double layer of cardboard plus a third from the end tab. Maybe they should put a metal plate down there though.

What is really not explainable is the variability in handling. I saved the last two of those long boxes to use to store some long ball bearing drawer slides. They arrived looking like new and are in great shape or they would have gone in the trash. The fact that even the outside looks good may be a blow to my previous argument about UPS. You can't make a box good enough to deal with a determined package handling moron. At least not one that you can afford to ship $20 worth of drill rod. If the drill rod did not tear up the box, that also means that someone had to not be beating it to death.

Paul

hornluv
01-30-2009, 05:26 PM
I got my replacement surface plate today in fine shape. They did seem to learn from their past mistake. Instead of airbags, they used small bags filled with peanuts, still in the same over-sized box though. One bag of peanuts had broken open, but the rest were still intact. I'm guessing they were better for the job since they still cushion after the first drop.;)

lazlo
01-30-2009, 05:38 PM
Paul, I think my orders from Enco ship from Nevada -- I'll have to double-check. Most of my MSC orders ship from the warehouse in Atlanta, GA.

The failure mode in the drill rods they sent last month was the end of the box: the first time someone dropped the box (this is UPS ;) ), the bars would hit the end, and tear-out the box flap.

10KPete
01-30-2009, 11:50 PM
OK, I guess I'm a bit slow right now.

I've looked all over the Enco web site and can't figure out how to get free shipping on a 12 x 18 plate!

The price is great, I need (want) one but the regular shipping is more than the price of the plate!

Any help would be appreciated guys!

Thanks,
Pete

hornluv
01-30-2009, 11:54 PM
OK, I guess I'm a bit slow right now.

I've looked all over the Enco web site and can't figure out how to get free shipping on a 12 x 18 plate!

The price is great, I need (want) one but the regular shipping is more than the price of the plate!

Any help would be appreciated guys!

Thanks,
Pete

You use the free shipping code that is sent out every month by email. This month's is WBJ9P and is good for orders over $25 until the 31st. Put it in the promo code box above the shopping cart to apply it.

10KPete
01-31-2009, 12:04 AM
Ah! That explains it then. I don't receive any printed material from Enco. I guess I had better jump on it then as tomorrow's the last day of this month!!

Thanks!
Pete

Bill Pace
01-31-2009, 08:20 AM
Yah, Pete, "the code" is a hot commodity around here!;)

You dont get the monthly "Hot Deals" flyer/catalog from ENCO? gosh, how do you function? While youre makin that order, sign up for that, -- worth your time.

Oh, and dont be surprised if you dont get "the code" after youve signed up, seems only the anointed or blessed or -- sumpthin! gets it, but thankfully one of the blessed always posts it here, hornluv is one of em .. thanks horn,

Oh. FWIW, I added another email account to try and get it (and HF's) but for 2 months now it still aint working for ENCO, but did start getting HFs....

RPease
01-31-2009, 08:28 AM
Pete........Don't worry too much if you miss the Jan 31 deadline. Next week they will post another offer that will be good until another date........LOL

The free shipping offer is definitely worth your time for the surface plate.

Regards.........Rodg

10KPete
01-31-2009, 11:08 PM
Well, I ordered that tombstone last night, along with a couple of other bitty things, entered the code and...waaalllllaaaa!......no shipping!

I've been wanting a granite flat spot for a long time but the shipping was always more than the price. And I couldn't make sense of the long drive either.

Problems solved!

Thanks guys,
Pete