PDA

View Full Version : How diappointed should I be with this auction chuck, and what should I do about it?



gellfex
01-26-2009, 10:23 PM
I won this auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320331614040&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

The text was "Up for auction is one South Bend Lathe 4 Jaw Chuck, this is a 6'' chuck for 9'' South Bend Lathes (1-1/2 8TPI)
Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

The chuck is pretty worn out as far as I can tell. The jaws are so loose that when I put a DTI on the flat face of a jaw and rattle it along the spindle axis, I get .002 of movement. What this means is anything chucked will tilt out the jaws so the work be gripped only by the very back of the jaws. When I chuck a rod I see light at the front of the jaws. Is there any fix for this like chucking something at the back, cutting the front of the jaws true, the cutting away the lip at the back? Or are the jaws too hard for that?

I think new Chicom for not much more would have been a better bet than this old USA iron. Caveat Emptor. Should I give negative feedback to warn off other unsuspecting buyers that the seller either doesn't know or care about the condition of the tooling he says is " is in Great Condition!!!!"? I doubt a refund would be an option.

wierdscience
01-26-2009, 10:38 PM
Well "great" leaves a field full of wiggle room,you know great as compared to what?

Honestly I never understood why old chucks fetch what they do.A good TOS or Bison chuck isn't that horribly bad in price and the Chinese have gotten better.

beckley23
01-26-2009, 10:38 PM
Have you contacted the seller?
Harry

Mcgyver
01-26-2009, 10:42 PM
that sucks.....I've always felt ebay buying should be deeply discounted to compensate for the risks of buying sight unseen.....if you can clearly document/articulate the specific performance issue, pictures and what not, i would ask for your money back. I confess i didn't entirely get what/how you were indicating though

If they guy had said i know nothing about these, well you're scuppered, but he didn't say that. He proclaimed its in great condition. In a commercial transaction, that places a burden of care on him - he can't say things like that if he hasn't any idea what great condition means for a chuck. or he just lied in which case its fraud. either way, i wouldn't crumble too quickly, if it its in terrible condition and that can be quantified/described it should be his problem. Tell him its junk, and why and that you want your money back

tony ennis
01-26-2009, 10:47 PM
I've always felt ebay buying should be deeply discounted

The beauty of auctions is that the item is worth what it sells for. If people got burned 75% of the time, their bidding would reflect it.

The OP should contact the seller and see what happens.

gellfex
01-26-2009, 11:41 PM
that sucks.....I've always felt ebay buying should be deeply discounted to compensate for the risks of buying sight unseen.....if you can clearly document/articulate the specific performance issue, pictures and what not, i would ask for your money back. I confess i didn't entirely get what/how you were indicating though

If they guy had said i know nothing about these, well you're scuppered, but he didn't say that. He proclaimed its in great condition. In a commercial transaction, that places a burden of care on him - he can't say things like that if he hasn't any idea what great condition means for a chuck. or he just lied in which case its fraud. either way, i wouldn't crumble too quickly, if it its in terrible condition and that can be quantified/described it should be his problem. Tell him its junk, and why and that you want your money back

Picture grabbing a jaw of a chuck while its on the lathe with nothing in the jaws and pushing and pulling along the direction of the spindle axis. That's where it's 2 thou loose. It's loose every other way, but that one's critical.

I'll email him, but I do have a hard time being civil in that kind of message. I don't have much hope of a refund, used stuff is usually "as is", even if it's not explicitly said. At least with the ebay elimination of seller feedback I won't get a negative as blackmail, that's happened to me before. The seller actually offered to withdraw his if I did. I told him to blow himself.

rode2rouen
01-26-2009, 11:42 PM
I won this auction http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320331614040&ssPageName=ADME:B:EOIBSA:US:1123

The text was "Up for auction is one South Bend Lathe 4 Jaw Chuck, this is a 6'' chuck for 9'' South Bend Lathes (1-1/2 8TPI)
Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

The chuck is pretty worn out as far as I can tell. The jaws are so loose that when I put a DTI on the flat face of a jaw and rattle it along the spindle axis, I get .002 of movement. What this means is anything chucked will tilt out the jaws so the work be gripped only by the very back of the jaws. When I chuck a rod I see light at the front of the jaws. Is there any fix for this like chucking something at the back, cutting the front of the jaws true, the cutting away the lip at the back? Or are the jaws too hard for that?

I think new Chicom for not much more would have been a better bet than this old USA iron. Caveat Emptor. Should I give negative feedback to warn off other unsuspecting buyers that the seller either doesn't know or care about the condition of the tooling he says is " is in Great Condition!!!!"? I doubt a refund would be an option.


I'd like to see a pic of your indicator set up mentioned above. I can't get a visual in my head of what you're describing.

As to Neg Feedback, try contacting the seller before you do that. Make your concerns known to him (her) and try to reach some sort of understanding.

I just won this chuck that's going to end up on a welding positioner:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=170295708680


Rex

v860rich
01-26-2009, 11:48 PM
The 1st thing I see is his feedback is below 99%, for most things in life 99% is pretty good but to me as feedback it ain't good. I'd try and get my money back but if it looked like it would drag out I'd just give neg feedback. A lot of times neg feedback will get some action because the seller will be willing to cut a refund in order to get the buyer to withdraw the negative.
THANX RICH
People say I'm getting crankier as I get older. That's not it. I just find I enjoy annoying people a lot more now. Especially younger people

agrip
01-27-2009, 12:04 AM
gell

All chuck jaws get bellmouthed over the years.

One way to easily handle that is:
Find a stout rubber block with parallel molded flat faces.
Saw out as many blocks (ratio 1x1x2) with the flat faces being one of the 1x dimensions, as you have jaws.

Sandwich the first block on/ between the angle flanks of two jaws about 2/3 to 7/8 out towards the jaw tips, and run the jaws together to lightly grip block on the flat faces. The 2x dimension is axial oriented along the jaw.

Repeat to fill the remaining jaws.

Now tighten the jaws using an indicator to set the outside of the jaws on the same turning radius, and tight enough so you cannot easily move the blocks, or somewhat tighter, your choice.

This loads the jaws as they would be in service

Now bore or grind (grind preferred) your jaws true.
Always leave the tips about one thou radially proud for 1/8 to 1/4 inch back from tip.
This retards the time till you repeat the process.

Hth Ag

DR
01-27-2009, 04:57 AM
My question is how loose are the jaws when the chuck is brand new? As chucks go, Skinner is not exactly world class.

Viewing the pictures, for what they're worth, the chuck does seem to be in good condition. If the chuck had been abused or well used you'd think it would show signs of that.

I would expect the face of the chuck to show dings or small dents.

Have you actually put a piece in the chuck and tightened the jaws to verify the tilt?

Ed Tipton
01-27-2009, 06:27 AM
I don't think the guy was deliberately mis-leading you. It's a used chuck. He may have used it for years without any problem depending on how he was using it, or he could have acquired it in some other manner and never used it at all...and it appeared good...so it was good as far as he was concerned. I wouldnt expect a used chuck to hold up to that kind of scrutiny. If it does that's great, you're ahead of the game, but I wouldn't expect it.

Your Old Dog
01-27-2009, 06:47 AM
I'll email him, but I do have a hard time being civil in that kind of message. I don't have much hope of a refund, used stuff is usually "as is", even if it's not explicitly said. At least with the ebay elimination of seller feedback I won't get a negative as blackmail, that's happened to me before. The seller actually offered to withdraw his if I did. I told him to blow himself.

If I were the guy and you came off hot and heavy with me I'd tell you what you could do with the chuck. I had that problem once with a guy and that's what I told him. A lot of people "respond in kind". Be civil about it, tell him you'd like a refund and why. Be pissed off in a letter when it serves a purpose other then venting. Looks to me like you got nothing to gain and everything to loose by starting with the vinegar instead of the sugar.

oldtiffie
01-27-2009, 06:51 AM
If its not worth all the "aggro" why not just bite the bullet, shrug your shoulders, put it down to experience and move on?

Is a loss of ~USD130 all that bad? eBay is a gamble after all and "playing" with money you can't afford to lose is a "no-no" most times.

I can't see the point of getting concerned about something like this that you can do nothing about.

Yes - I know the moral and ethical issues but I deal in pragmatism, realism and practicality mainly. I just put these sorts of things in the "Stiff $h*t" folder.

You win some, you lose some - that's life.

kvom
01-27-2009, 08:29 AM
My 4-jaw chuck also has play in the jaws with nothing chucked, but holds tight when material is chucked. I asked a question about this some time ago and was told that it is normal for these chucks.

JCHannum
01-27-2009, 08:47 AM
It is a four jaw chuck after all, and from the photos, does not look to be in bad shape. Chuck a good, straight piece of 1" or larger shafting in it, dial it in and then check it for runout 6" or more from the jaws. Let us know what you find.

goose
01-27-2009, 09:24 AM
"Great" condition is meaningless to describe used tooling. "Great" is a word you use to describe a novel or a football game. It is used tooling, after all, and it looks used in the picture, to assume it would perform a certain way and hold certain tolerances is a mistake on the buyers part. But I think it's worth a shot to contact the seller and state that it doesn't meet your expectations and request a return or similar.

Good luck,

Gary

A.K. Boomer
01-27-2009, 09:48 AM
gell

All chuck jaws get bellmouthed over the years.

One way to easily handle that is:
Find a stout rubber block with parallel molded flat faces.
Saw out as many blocks (ratio 1x1x2) with the flat faces being one of the 1x dimensions, as you have jaws.

Sandwich the first block on/ between the angle flanks of two jaws about 2/3 to 7/8 out towards the jaw tips, and run the jaws together to lightly grip block on the flat faces. The 2x dimension is axial oriented along the jaw.

Repeat to fill the remaining jaws.

Now tighten the jaws using an indicator to set the outside of the jaws on the same turning radius, and tight enough so you cannot easily move the blocks, or somewhat tighter, your choice.

This loads the jaws as they would be in service

Now bore or grind (grind preferred) your jaws true.
Always leave the tips about one thou radially proud for 1/8 to 1/4 inch back from tip.
This retards the time till you repeat the process.

Hth Ag


I dont think your chuck is junk, they all have some play in order to function and yours does not sound excessive BUT, I would go with Agrips advise for the jaw teeth, its to be expected that they have lost some material over the years --- dial it back in and be happy its not a 3 jaw with a varying scroll;)

gellfex
01-27-2009, 12:44 PM
It just got worse. I had done the indicating on a plate, but I just tried to put it on the lathe. The spindle thread isn't right! It looks 1 1/2-8 but only threads on a little over 1 turn before jamming about 5/16 from seating. WTF? I tried cleaning the threads, and bent a wire to loosen anything that might be jammed in there. Perhaps the adapter plate was shop made for a particular machine. Yeah, I'm sure I could get/make a new adapter plate, but this piece of crap ain't worth it.

How does this email sound? calm enough? I think I won't even bring up the jaws.

I received the chuck yesterday. It seems that it is not a standard 1 1/2-8 thread as described. It will only spin on my lathe spindle a little over 1 turn, far from seating. There is nothing wrong with my lathe spindle, every other 1 1/2-8 device I have bought goes on just fine.

I would like a return and refund of this item, as it is not what was described in the auction.

Thank you

Liger Zero
01-27-2009, 01:06 PM
Yes, that sounds good. Direct and to the point.

heidad01
01-27-2009, 02:39 PM
gellfes, I hope you get your money back. +1 on what WS said earlier. I have never bought off of ebay, because I can usually find the same item new and for a bit higher price, but I do not have to take a chance. That Auction ended at $116.50 and probabely plus shipping. Take a look at this item from Enco Model #271-6382. A brand new 6" four jaw chuck for $132.00 plus free shipping, plus you can return it if you want no questions asked. It is not a South Bend chuck, but what the guy has sent you is not much of that either. Best of luck to you. DavidH

Alistair Hosie
01-27-2009, 03:32 PM
I think the guy said it was great if it's not he shouldn't have done that.Sonever mind what others say if you'r not happy then you need to tell him you did and hoppefully it should be ok it was not too cheap for a second hand chuck.Mr Stevenson:D will sell you a bridgeport for a little more OOOPS Sorry John :DAlistair

aboard_epsilon
01-27-2009, 04:11 PM
gellfes, I hope you get your money back. +1 on what WS said earlier. I have never bought off of ebay, because I can usually find the same item new and for a bit higher price, but I do not have to take a chance. That Auction ended at $116.50 and probabely plus shipping. Take a look at this item from Enco Model #271-6382. A brand new 6" four jaw chuck for $132.00 plus free shipping, plus you can return it if you want no questions asked. It is not a South Bend chuck, but what the guy has sent you is not much of that either. Best of luck to you. DavidH

That's probably the heavy one ...heavy on the south bends plane bearings...gellfes's one is the slimline version light-weight ...hard to get cheap new.

all the best.markJ

gellfex
01-27-2009, 04:12 PM
I definitely should have studied the market more, I usually shop things to death, spending more in my hrs than the purchase price! I've done very well for used gear on Ebay overall, things like VFD's for under $70, a Rockwell 17" drill press for $170 and a collet closer with a set of 3C's for I think $200. Maybe I was due a turkey.

sidneyt
01-27-2009, 06:02 PM
Take a look at this item from Enco Model #271-6382. A brand new 6" four jaw chuck for $132.00 plus free shipping, plus you can return it if you want no questions asked. It is not a South Bend chuck, but what the guy has sent you is not much of that either. Best of luck to you. DavidH

Or you can try this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/6-4-JAW-PLAIN-BACK-CHUCK-NEW-W-CHUCK-WRENCH_W0QQitemZ180322570562QQihZ008QQcategoryZ921 50QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1713.m153.l1262

NickH
01-27-2009, 06:07 PM
Failing all else see if you can get a new set of jaws, replacements are available which need scraping/stoning/grinding to fit as they take into account that a chuck requiring new jaws has wear,
Regards,
Nick

lane
01-27-2009, 06:21 PM
I may loose sleep over it if it were a 3 jaw. A 4 jaw why worry. most of them get that way over time want hurt any thing . Mount it and chuck up a piece . All mine are like that . When you tighten it down it will hold. Besides you don`t want to grip the whole piece any way. You cant tap it around if you do.

oldtiffie
01-27-2009, 06:45 PM
I agree with Lane.

A chuck is not and never was a set of good collets. Even a good new chuck will have intended and necessary manufacturing tolerances as well as clearances between parts where at least one is required to move relative to another - just like the sliding jaw on a "Kurt" vice.

So, holding a job by a small length in a 3 or 4 jaw chuck will result in a degree of bell-mouthing in the jaws.

Even a "worn" (out?) chuck will grip all along the length of the jaws if the surface to be gripped is at least as long as the gripping faces of the chuck jaws. They do remarkably well irrespective of wear.

If you really are worried about the bell-mouthing, put a short length of 1/16" (very) soft iron/steel welding rod (as used in oxy-acet welding) across - not along - the jaw gripping surface as near as is practical to the front of the chuck jaws and clamp the chuck and crush the wire.

If you are really fussy, I'd suggest at least considering using/getting a 3-jaw chuck with soft jaws and machine them to suit as it will cancel out all or most errors in the lathe and the chuck as well as making the gripping surface as good as the lathe is and better than the chuck is.

You can not only "tap-true" a chuck on a lathe flange or backing-plate but also "tap-true" a "wobbling" job in a chuck - particularly a 4-jaw chuck.

With a bit of thought and effort, that 4-jaw chuck can be very useful.

S_J_H
01-27-2009, 07:22 PM
Take a look at this item from Enco Model #271-6382. A brand new 6" four jaw chuck for $132.00 plus free shipping, plus you can return it if you want no questions asked.

Just bought one of those for my SB9A. It's a decent chuck. It runs very true and the jaws are tight. Could be a little more compact( less overhang) but it still works real well on the SB9 . Just parted solid 3" iron using it and no chatter.

Steve

Your Old Dog
01-27-2009, 07:50 PM
I definitely should have studied the market more, I usually shop things to death, spending more in my hrs than the purchase price! I've done very well for used gear on Ebay overall, things like VFD's for under $70, a Rockwell 17" drill press for $170 and a collet closer with a set of 3C's for I think $200. Maybe I was due a turkey.

Don'tg beat yourself up! I've brought up ebay only to find something really interesting about to end in 3 minutes. I make a big play to get it only to find I just screwed myself :D I bought flycutter for my mill. Later I found out I could have purchased 3 for what I paid for the one !! Win some, loose some!

macona
01-27-2009, 08:30 PM
Check out Plaza Machinery. I have gotten good deals on stuff from him before.

http://www.plazamachinery.com/

gellfex
01-27-2009, 09:31 PM
I agree with Lane.
Even a "worn" (out?) chuck will grip all along the length of the jaws if the surface to be gripped is at least as long as the gripping faces of the chuck jaws. They do remarkably well irrespective of wear.


Not this one. When I chucked deep a piece of 1/2" drill rod, I could see a wedge of light through at the front of the jaws.

But using the chuck "as is" is moot at this point, it won't thread on the spindle!

UPDATE: He's refunded! Likely he knew it was crap, but I guess I can't give negative feedback if he refunded promptly.

I guess now I get a new Chinese chuck for that once in a blue moon I could use one. The nice thing about only making things I design myself is that I design to my toolset.

David Powell
01-27-2009, 09:42 PM
I recently bought a new Chinese made 4" 4 jaw for $ 65. It is , for me, too tight, my arthritic hands find that It has no feel to it,even though the jaws move smoothly without binding. I made a new key with a longer handle and that helps a bit. Please could you send me about half of the slop in your jaws so that I can put it into my chuck and maybe feel the job moving like I can with my older chucks. When the dollar counts you just make do with what you can afford.Regards David Powell.

nheng
01-27-2009, 10:23 PM
I happen to have the same chuck, actually model 4206 but looks the same, and it is brand new (unused, 60 years old). Just measured the play as you described, pushing and pulling on axis with about 5lbs of force. There is no measurable play with a tenths indicator. This has been disassembled, cleaned and lubed and the jaws move with light resistance. Den

J Tiers
01-27-2009, 10:55 PM
As for the threading-on... I don't know what machines you have. But I have an 8" SouthBend faceplate that I use on my Logan.

When I got the machine, (which it came with :eek: ), the faceplate would not thread on. Pretty much as you said, it went on a ways and stopped. Apparently all 1 1/2-8 thread noses are NOT the same.

So I got an old threading but and a boring bar and hand-scraped the faceplate threads until it went on and bottomed. Since I was going to face it off anyway, no problem.

I never did figure out what made the two nominally identical threads different. all I could figure was that the Logan used a thread with a sharp V top, and maybe SouthBend did not.

Loose jaws that can go bell-mouthed are a real nuisance.... they don't work well, turning odd multi-sided shapes..... You CAN grind them to where they hold well, I have done that. or you can shim, I have done that too. But no reason to PAY for the privilege.

Get a decent Bison 4 jaw. The 4 jaw aren't too expensive, depending on size, and work quite well.

rode2rouen
01-27-2009, 11:55 PM
I happen to have the same chuck, actually model 4206 but looks the same, and it is brand new (unused, 60 years old). Just measured the play as you described, pushing and pulling on axis with about 5lbs of force. There is no measurable play with a tenths indicator. This has been disassembled, cleaned and lubed and the jaws move with light resistance. Den


Reading this thread got me curious, so I went out to the garage and checked all of the jaws on 3 of my chucks.

I have a 10" Atlas lathe that came with just a 5" Cushman 3 jaw. Scouting Ebay over a few months after buying the lathe, I came up with a 5" Cushman 4 jaw scroll chuck, a Craftsman 8" 4 jaw independent and a Jacobs 59B (my poor man's collet set) spindle nose chuck.

On the bench, both of the 4 jaw and the 3 jaw have more than .002" play in just about any axis you care to measure, with nothing clamped in the jaws. Mounted on the spindle (I used an internal threading tool, by hand, to touch up the threads on the Cushman 4 jaw when I got it as it would not thread on to the spindle completely), with a 12" length of 5/8" drill rod clamped, both of the Cushman chucks show right at .0012" run out at 6" from the jaws. I can crank on the 4 jaw Craftsman and get it under .001" without too much trouble.

I guess if they all run that true, which is plenty close for most of my work, I'm gonna have to keep using them.

YMMV


Rex

JCHannum
01-28-2009, 08:36 AM
As for the threading-on... I don't know what machines you have. But I have an 8" SouthBend faceplate that I use on my Logan.

When I got the machine, (which it came with :eek: ), the faceplate would not thread on. Pretty much as you said, it went on a ways and stopped. Apparently all 1 1/2-8 thread noses are NOT the same.

There is not the same standardization for threaded spindles as there is for the D1, LO and other QC spindle forms. The thead tolerances, profile and length can differ between manufacturers as can the dimensions of the register, if present at all.

J Tiers
01-28-2009, 08:47 AM
There is not the same standardization for threaded spindles as there is for the D1, LO and other QC spindle forms. The thead tolerances, profile and length can differ between manufacturers as can the dimensions of the register, if present at all.

I would think the "register", or flat contact shoulder, would always be present, although its diameter might vary.

But I am aware that there are many differences in the threads. It was more a comment on the provision of "a standard 1 1/2-8 threaded nose" that was sometimes touted as a feature......................

And it certainly explains why the "pre-threaded" backplate blanks which are available are generally made so loose as almost to fall down to contact the register without threading-on. Or perhaps the 4th-tier manufacturing firms which do that sort of work just make it a bit bigger to be certain it goes on. :D

JCHannum
01-28-2009, 09:12 AM
What I refer to as the register is the short, unthreaded portion of the spindle between the end of the threads and the shoulder the backplate draws up against. The register can be the same diameter at the major diameter of the threads or slightly larger. Some manufacturers dispensed with it altogether and theaded up to the shoulder.

gellfex
01-28-2009, 11:43 AM
Reading this thread got me curious, so I went out to the garage and checked all of the jaws on 3 of my chucks.

I have a 10" Atlas lathe that came with just a 5" Cushman 3 jaw. Scouting Ebay over a few months after buying the lathe, I came up with a 5" Cushman 4 jaw scroll chuck, a Craftsman 8" 4 jaw independent and a Jacobs 59B (my poor man's collet set) spindle nose chuck.

On the bench, both of the 4 jaw and the 3 jaw have more than .002" play in just about any axis you care to measure, with nothing clamped in the jaws. Mounted on the spindle (I used an internal threading tool, by hand, to touch up the threads on the Cushman 4 jaw when I got it as it would not thread on to the spindle completely), with a 12" length of 5/8" drill rod clamped, both of the Cushman chucks show right at .0012" run out at 6" from the jaws. I can crank on the 4 jaw Craftsman and get it under .001" without too much trouble.

I guess if they all run that true, which is plenty close for most of my work, I'm gonna have to keep using them.

YMMV


Rex

While you may have good runout with a bellmouthed chuck, what about stability of the work if it's not on a tailstock center? if it's only contacting at 1 point at the back of the jaws, you might as well have every piece of work held only by the tips of the jaws, which I've always tried to avoid as unstable.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 12:01 PM
The beauty of auctions is that the item is worth what it sells for. If people got burned 75% of the time, their bidding would reflect it.

I've been burned several times (out of over a thousand Ebay transactions) on used chucks, collets, measuring gear, and toolpost grinders.

I went through three Jacobs 14N Super Ball Chucks before I finally got a good one. Basically, people will spin a drill in a chuck, or spring a collet, or drop or wear a lathe chuck, and put it on Ebay to get rid of it.

I've found that to be especially true of used collets: people sort through a large collection of collets, pull out the good ones, and put the crappy ones back on Ebay.

Buying used toolpost grinders is truly amusing -- when you meet other HSM'ers in person, just about everyone has bought a used TPG that looked like a great deal, only to find that the spindle bearings were shot. Mine has modern (as in, 2006 vintage) skate bearings in place of a $200 set of Barden ABEC 7 angular contact bearings that were supposed to be in there. The seller feigned ignorance, and claimed he had no idea how modern skate bearings showed up in a 40 year old grinding spindle that according to the ad text had been sitting on a shelf in his shop for 20 years...

Caveat emptor and all that.

softtail
01-28-2009, 12:29 PM
If buyers put half as much effort into asking the right questions before they bid, as they did belly aching about it on the interent, all would be ok.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 12:48 PM
If buyers put half as much effort into asking the right questions before they bid, as they did belly aching about it on the interent, all would be ok.

Sorry, but that's BS. Are you an Ebay seller? :)

When people list spun Jacobs chucks, they often intentionally take the pictures with the jaw tips facing away from the camera. Scan through some Ebay auctions and you'll see what I mean:

http://i19.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/2c/d4/7a01_1.JPG
http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/2c/ed/a70b_1.JPG

If you ask them "Has the chuck been spun"? "Are the jaws in good shape?" The answer is usually something non-committal like "They look OK to me."

Gelflex's chuck had the ad description: ""One South Bend Lathe 4 Jaw Chuck, Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

Since the chuck showed up well worn, that's not belly-aching.

gellfex
01-28-2009, 01:44 PM
Sorry, but that's BS. Are you an Ebay seller? :)

When people list spun Jacobs chucks, they often intentionally take the pictures with the jaw tips facing away from the camera. Scan through some Ebay auctions and you'll see what I mean:

http://i19.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/2c/d4/7a01_1.JPG
http://i6.ebayimg.com/08/i/001/2c/ed/a70b_1.JPG

If you ask them "Has the chuck been spun"? "Are the jaws in good shape?" The answer is usually something non-committal like "They look OK to me."

Gelflex's chuck had the ad description: ""One South Bend Lathe 4 Jaw Chuck, Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

Since the chuck showed up well worn, that's not belly-aching.

Not to hijack my own thread, but who hasn't spun a bit in a Jacobs now and then? Other than eyeballing looking for a bellmouth grip, how do you diagnose a whipped Jacobs?

heidad01
01-28-2009, 01:48 PM
Softtail, I disagree and that is not with you but with the concept. Buyers ask questions and that is only good if the answer is honest and forward. The add that gellfex bought from said ""One South Bend Lathe 4 Jaw Chuck, Item is in Great Condition!!!!". I would think that either the seller is deceiving or stupid and does not know what "Great Condition" means. I think the old west was not that bad in this respect that lying and cheating was swiftly dealt with. That will keep the thieves in check and the honest folks can go about their honest business. I can not stand the fact that some adds just leave details out to hide something or pictures that are taken and presented in a manor to not show flaws and later claiming ignorance. Not telling known facts in anticipation of making money in a deal is not different from cheating and/or stealing.That is just my 5 Cents on the buyer/seller story on ebay auctions. DavidH.

goose
01-28-2009, 01:51 PM
Used tooling, sight unseen, = pig in a poke = do your homework = don't count on a return policy like amazon.com

It doesn't seem any more complicated to me.

Gary

Bill736
01-28-2009, 02:08 PM
I would never assume a used chuck or other precision tool was in mechanically pristine condition , unless the seller listed actual specifications such as runout , etc. And, apparently, you didn't ask for such specifications. There was so little information in the seller's ad that it should have been obvious that the "condition" stated was just based on the exterior appearance of the chuck . I think you probably got what you paid for.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 02:43 PM
Not to hijack my own thread, but who hasn't spun a bit in a Jacobs now and then? Other than eyeballing looking for a bellmouth grip, how do you diagnose a whipped Jacobs?

I've had two sets of problems with the three Jacobs chucks I bought on Ebay: bell-mouthed jaws, worse than this:

http://i4.ebayimg.com/01/i/001/2c/ba/b005_1.JPG

...and the main chuck body being damaged from someone trying to replace the jaws, who didn't know how to correctly press the chuck apart.

You can find the NOS jaw replacement sets on Ebay for $25 - $50, but one of my chucks is bent where a gorilla was hammering the back of the chuck body. Then, to make matters worse, he thought it was stuck, so he hit it with what looks like an acetylene torch :eek:, so the metal body is actually deformed from the heat. This is from a well-known Ebay seller in Washington state. In the ad for the Jacobs chuck with the torched and hammered chuck body, he conveniently took the pictures with the back end facing away from the camera.

When I contacted the Ebay seller, he replied that "he sent what's in the picture." When I pointed out that the chuck was turned so that the damage wasn't shown in the picture, he told me to send it back, and he'd refund the purchase price only (so I'd be out shipping).

This was before I found out that you can just file an "Item Not Received or Substantially Different" claim and get all your money, including shipping, back.

This was also before Ebay banned retaliatory feedback, so the seller had a high 99% rating, and I didn't leave him a negative, because I didn't feel like sacrificing my 100% feedback for a $80 chuck. Times have changed, though, and now that buyers aren't afraid of leaving honest feedback, the seller's rating has dropped a lot.

softtail
01-28-2009, 02:44 PM
An honest mistake? Sounds like the seller took care of him... even though the buyer could still find something to grouse about even in that. There's no law that says you have to be an expert to sell on Ebay. Maybe the lack of any crashes, and a nice appearance led the guy to believe it was in excellent shape.


Chucks over the 'Bay... beware. If you ask point blank questions, and get acceptable answers back, it makes things easier. "When you chuck up a piece of stock, can you see air under any part of the jaws?". If 'yes' don't buy. If you don't get an answer, don't buy. If you get attitude back, don't buy. Here's a crazy idea... if the seller doesn't takes returns, don't buy.

And drill Chucks? Half of them aren't true brand new. I just bought one off Ebay, but I made the sure the price was cheap enough, that it wouldn't be the ne dof the world if it wasn't the best purchase.

ps, I buy and sell on Ebay, and have zero bad items/transactions, and 100% feedback.

lazlo
01-28-2009, 02:52 PM
An honest mistake? Sounds like the seller took care of him... even though the buyer could still find something to grouse about even in that. There's no law that says you have to be an expert to sell on Ebay.

The seller has 90 transactions, and many of them are various South Bend parts. He knew damn well what he was selling.

rode2rouen
01-28-2009, 03:30 PM
While you may have good runout with a bellmouthed chuck, what about stability of the work if it's not on a tailstock center? if it's only contacting at 1 point at the back of the jaws, you might as well have every piece of work held only by the tips of the jaws, which I've always tried to avoid as unstable.


I understand your point.
I checked my chucks and they seem to grip properly (no air gaps).
My point was that play in the jaws without having a workpiece clamped
up is, IMO, a questionable method of determining if a used chuck is serviceable.

BTW, if you haven't got a Jacobs spindle nose chuck, try to find a nice one.
A great bit of tooling.


Rex


http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/Tooling/Jacobs59B.jpg

pcarpenter
01-28-2009, 05:19 PM
I disagree with the poster who seemed to imply that an ebay sale should work like a game of 20 questions. If you are selling stuff, describe it well. If you don't know what you have, say that and be willing to take the item back since you can't describe it well. If you give some details and leave out others that may be important, that is deceit. You don't have to lie outright to deceive someone. If you think that deceit is an acceptable business practice, I hope you find another line of work where your ethics are not an issue as you may not remain in business long. Treat your customers as a "target", someone to try to "get one over on", and you likely will not stay in business long.

I bought a used Bridgeport mill which was a total crapshoot in a way given the distance and the inability to see before sale. However, it had limited description.... It did, however, indicate that it worked and the photos included an x table feed. I got there to pick it up and saw a tag on the power feed cord. I got home and saw that the tag said "do not plug in" which I promptly did, knowing I would get verification of the reasoning. The thing smoked. I called and the seller first said "gee...its "as is"".

To me, when its current condition includes something the seller should know like having a tag on the defunct power feed and they do not disclose that information, its deceit. In this case, it was an issue of the seller being an accountant with the company and he likely didn't ask many questions of the people in a position to know before he listed it. As such, he was willing to compromise and returned a bit of my money. He actually asked what I wanted. It was not fair to ask for all of the cost of a new power feed so I tried to be reasonable and asked for half which he agreed to without argument. He still made plenty on the sale of a machine that had surely been completely depriciated at that point. I would do business with them again because he did not intend to deceive...not something I would say of some ebay sellers.

Paul

oldtiffie
01-28-2009, 05:47 PM
First of all - a disclaimer. I don't deal on eBay.

This discussion now seems to be in large part about ethics and morality and retrospection.

The OP was dealing in reality.

Both sides - seller and buyer - are presumably seeking to deal with the other to their own advantage - which is fair enough. To that extent, I would expect that in many if not most cases that self-interest would prevail in most circumstances.

Going to a garage sale or a flea-market is arguably better as at least you can see and talk to the seller and discuss conditions as regards the items and return or policy issues.

As at any auction or sale you should know your market, your risks and how much you are or can afford to lose.

There has been no discussion that I recall on the ethics or otherwise of buying an item on eBay that is defective and then putting it back up in the hope that someone else will get caught with the "dud" item and the loss.

I note too that some - not all - but some - "gloats" are in effective exercising "bragging rights" about how the gloater got a great deal and really beat the seller who could have got a lot more - even from the gloater.

I sometimes think that the ego got hurt more than the pocket or morals, ethics etc. - and in that order.

lane
01-28-2009, 06:18 PM
I buy a lot on e-bay. And have never been burned. First rule of thumb.
Do not expect much.

Do not pay very much steal the idem.

If you pay more than 1/4 of what it is worth you paid too much.

Do not be in a hurry sooner are later the idem you want will come up again and at a better price.

Know what things are worth and what they are worth to you.

Do not expect to get a like new idem. You may .but the odds are you will not.

Last but not least most new stuff is china made , crap any way.

If you can not touch and feel it the buyer beware.

Just my 2 cents worth.

oldtiffie
01-28-2009, 07:29 PM
Good advice Lane.

gellfex
01-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I learned about auction buying early on at machine shop auctions. 1st rule is don't bid if you have no idea what it's worth or how to tell if it's junk. I bought a used copier that had a scratched drum. As a lesson it was worth the price, and the quality of the copies was sufficient for shop use, but also a constant reminder of the lesson. 2nd rule, don't buy it if it'll kill you if it's a total loss. For dealers, it's all in the game, for your own use, buying a Bridgeport that's really scrap will break your heart and bank. The risks are there, but I think worth it.

I've been afraid of complex items like a mills or lathes, but have done fine on many items both online and in person. Best score: Hamilton cone drive reversing sensitive drill press, perfect for spot drilling, and small tapping, $35. I use this every day. apparently no one at the auction knew what it was. Same auction brought me an Ettco tapping head for the same price. I knew list was $500.

The remaining questions about the original topic are do I just eat the return shipping, as I would with most retail returns, and do I leave no feedback as he requested? He refunded promptly, but he probably knew he was selling junk.

rode2rouen
01-28-2009, 11:39 PM
The remaining questions about the original topic are do I just eat the return shipping, as I would with most retail returns, and do I leave no feedback as he requested? He refunded promptly, but he probably knew he was selling junk.




Dood refunded your money, eat the return shipping.

If neither of you leave feedback the auction "goes away" after 90 days.
No blood, no foul.

My $.02


Rex

lazlo
01-29-2009, 12:11 PM
Dood refunded your money, eat the return shipping.

So you think it's fair that Gelflex should eat $14 shipping when the seller sold the item as:

"this is a 6'' chuck for 9'' South Bend Lathes (1-1/2 8TPI)
Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

But the chuck showed-up well-worn?

Mcgyver
01-29-2009, 12:57 PM
In business, risk management is this; take the value of something and multiply by the probability. In other words if the value if it happens is $100 and there's a 50% chance, the options 'expected value' is $50. This is obviously a simple example, but the point is valid

Apply the same to ebay business. If the thing should be worth $100 as described, and there's 50% chance of it being a dud, don't pay more than $50. if you pay $100, there's a 50% chance you'll whining about being ripped off.

how do you pick a percentage? educated guess work. An Armstrong tool holder is a safer bet than a collet.

More or less what lane said - as a buyer i have to be well considered (discounted) for buying sight unseen.

Life gets more complicated when you're buying things with a scarcity value. It becomes tougher and tougher to discount the price and actually every win :(. I've filled a bunch of holes for my shaper this way and so far have been treated well but not got any deals.

For more general stuff, I've been able to pay less via craiglist/kijiji for things and get the benefit of inspection - the much lower market exposure these things receive allow one to drive a deal ....but good luck waiting for shaper parts that way

rode2rouen
01-29-2009, 05:30 PM
So you think it's fair that Gelflex should eat $14 shipping when the seller sold the item as:

"this is a 6'' chuck for 9'' South Bend Lathes (1-1/2 8TPI)
Item is in Great Condition!!!!"

But the chuck showed-up well-worn?



He got off cheaper than if the seller had told him to pound sand.
So, yeah, it's fair.

USPS just delivered the chuck I bought earlier this week. It will never see a lathe spindle as it is destined to be part of a welding positioner. I asked the seller a total of 4 questions regarding the chuck, and after inspecting it, I found it to be in better condition than his answers led me to believe.

I firmly believe that most sellers will be straight up about things if you ask them specific questions. Depending on the item being auctioned, I ask lotsa questions, if I like the answers, I snipe in a bid for the maximum amount I'm willing to pay for the item, if the answers seem evasive or no answers are returned, I don't bid.

Maybe I'm just lucky, so far, I've never had to go round and round with a seller or a buyer.

YMMV


Rex

gellfex
01-29-2009, 05:56 PM
He got off cheaper than if the seller had told him to pound sand.
So, yeah, it's fair.
Rex

That's more or less how I see it too. I suppose I can consider it tuition at Caveat Emptor University.

I'm not sure Q&A would have told me what I needed to know, I think the lesson is don't buy items that need to be precision from a picture unless, as was said earlier, you're perfectly prepared to receive junk and bid it so. I might be considered lucky that my Rockwell DP for $170 was fine, but it was also a cash pickup, where I could have walked away or renegotiated on the spot.

I almost walked away when picking up a classic Rockwell 1x42 sander that had rotten wheel rubber not visible in the photo, but decided it was a good enough fixer upper when he knocked $10 off.

lazlo
01-29-2009, 05:56 PM
He got off cheaper than if the seller had told him to pound sand.
So, yeah, it's fair.

If he paid by PayPal, all Gelflex has to do is file an Ebay/Paypal "Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described" claim, and they will refund the entire purchase price including shipping.

I've done this several times with unreasonable sellers.

Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described Process (http://pages.ebay.in/help/buy/item-not-received.html)

rode2rouen
01-29-2009, 07:23 PM
If he paid by PayPal, all Gelflex has to do is file an Ebay/Paypal "Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described" claim, and they will refund the entire purchase price including shipping.

I've done this several times with unreasonable sellers.




Oh, that must be a ton of fun! :rolleyes:
Who is the arbiter of "Significantly Not As Described"?

Thanx, but I'm gonna continue asking questions of the sellers, and requesting that potential bidders to ask questions of me if my descriptions are found lacking.

Gellfex seems to be "reasonably satisfied" with the outcome, and that's what counts.


Rex

gellfex
01-29-2009, 07:47 PM
If he paid by PayPal, all Gelflex has to do is file an Ebay/Paypal "Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described" claim, and they will refund the entire purchase price including shipping.

I've done this several times with unreasonable sellers.

Item Not Received or Significantly Not as Described Process (http://pages.ebay.in/help/buy/item-not-received.html)

Do you think that's really appropriate in this case? The shipping is only $12, and he refunded immediately. He could have stonewalled but didn't.

It is interesting the comment about this being a lightweight. At 12lbs it is, compared to the Enco listed at a whopping 33lbs. I gotta think twice about that, my back aches just thinking about putting it on and off.