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bdarin
08-14-2003, 11:24 PM
Just in case anyone's interested, that idiot Bush walked around in his mouth again. It was most definitely NOT caused by a lightning strike in Niagara Falls. I live near there and the weather was beautiful all day long. Not a cloud in the sky, certainly none that could produce lightning. In fact, I was on the I-190 right near the Robert Moses hydro plant when the juice went off and I sure as hell didn't see a mysterious bolt of lightning from out of the blue hit the plant. Anyone believing that bulls**t is as dumb as that Texas longhorn. He really needs to check his facts before he opens his big ignorant mouth and blames all of NY city's problems on Niagara Falls. Who needs NYC anyway?
Whew, ok. All better now, rant over. Thanks for listening.

Oso
08-14-2003, 11:31 PM
Story now on news is that it spread in from a failure in Canada. Or an overloaded tie-line, or both.

They are all interlinked, read up on the one in the 70s (?) and you will see how it starts. And how hard it is to recover from...

Until they have power up, they won't be able to start up the power plants....to get the power to start, they need power plants up and running.........which can't be started without power...........

Somewhere somone must have an I.C. based power plant that they can start............just to get the steam and nuc plants going.

Apparently it even takes power to start a hydro plant......go figure.

mbensema
08-15-2003, 12:27 AM
bdarin, before you start ranting, you should take some time and learn some facts. Canada blamed the power failure on a lightning strike at a power plant in the Niagara region and then said there was a fire a nuclear plant in PA. All Bush was doing was saying those were not the cause of the problem.

jfsmith
08-15-2003, 01:04 AM
So we have a power outage, a lot of the world doesn't have power like the states do. Enjoy it while you can, it may go again in a few years.

Jerry

wierdscience
08-15-2003, 01:12 AM
The outage probibly started when someone some where plugged in one more fan or toaster or something http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Oso,ya man,an i.c.driven generator,if you could trace all those thousands of miles of wire back to the source-it would probibly be some old man somewhere with a 4000w Briggs generator that starts it all http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
p.s.don't want to piss anybody off,but I had power all day,ALL OF THIS STINKING HOT DAY http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 08-15-2003).]

Evan
08-15-2003, 01:46 AM
What power outage? We had power just fine here in British Columbia. We produce twice as much as we need and sell the excess for obscene profits to the poor suckers in California. It's all made with falling water, too. Incidentally, the Canadian Minister of Defense claims it was a nuke plant in PA that caused it. It seems really strange that the Minister of Defense is even talking about this.

BTW, OSO, in the first big blackout in NYC the Mt. Sinai Hospital realized they couldn't start their big diesel backup generators because the starter motors ran on 220v. Just how f**kin stupid is that?

SJorgensen
08-15-2003, 01:48 AM
Our Grid is obviously vulnerable to the same cascading failure mode that it was in the 70's. I only see the grid serving the marketeer’s of energy like the Enron folks and others in Bush's camp. These are the worthless goddamn leaches, which will prevent the public from having cheap energy resources. Any local group can install a hydro or thermoelectric or wind powered source for their needs and they will enjoy cheap power. Once on the grid they are subject to the market manipulation Bush’s friends put California through last year.
It seems to me that the load balancing that a grid is supposed to achieve can only be fully realized, if the sharing partners are spread the farthest apart. If a load varies due to the heat or cooling requirements of an area, then it would help to balance the load if the sharing partners load were nearly the opposite of the other. This leads to the need for some intercontinental power grids. I’m just saying…

I would prefer to generate my own and not be vulnerable to the greedy bastards like the Bush, Enron, Arthur Anderson, and Cheney et al.
I have been anticipating the "fuel-cell" technology but I think the "powers that be" may have intercepted the technology. I would love to live near a river that I could tap a flow off of. I would be like a flow of gold and I could be happy and powered forever more. There are other ways to “get off the grid” as a friend has said to me, and one day I hope to do so.

Spence

jfsmith
08-15-2003, 02:27 AM
Lets all move to one of the provinices that has oil and no PST, they don't have the problems the rest of us have.

I think it was in the Pogo cartoon strip a few years ago. "We have met the enemy and they is us."

Jerry

Evan
08-15-2003, 02:35 AM
Jerry,

You must be getting as old as I am. Walt Kelly wrote in Pogo "We have met the enemy and he is us." in 1970. Seems like just a few years...

jfsmith
08-15-2003, 02:40 AM
Evan,
I was a member of the U.S. Army at that time. That line rang true at that time, as it does today.
As that I have changed and the world around me has changed, I moved north were the people are kinder and life is a little more polite.

jerry

Thrud
08-15-2003, 02:42 AM
Doh!

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 08-15-2003).]

Thrud
08-15-2003, 02:43 AM
We have 4 big plants very near here (Natural gas and coal fired). The only power outages we get are when someone takes a power pole out.

...and we use hamster wheels to jump start them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Spence

Ballard Power Systems - now owned by Mercedes Benz/Chrysler and called Excelsis Fuel Cell Systems (or something like that - they seem to change names often) have a portable system you can buy right now. The small ones are under $100,000(US) and can run a number of homes. Don't know how expensive maintenance would be but they are ideal for remote locations because of extreme reliability.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 08-15-2003).]

ibewgypsie
08-15-2003, 02:43 AM
What happens is when they improperly align the grid, the generators suck instead of push.

They have this lil guage that goes around and around, when it synchronizes they throw it in. (really I have saw it in a hydro plant) all the console is about 40 feet long, guages on all the walls. Seems like more than one person can handle. And they have automated a lot of the power plants to remote start, Now how does a operator feel the vibration from a hundred miles away. Bring back the real TVA power plant operators. You can't run it all from downtown.

Really I don't know how it all stays together anyways, everytime I opened up something the insulation was laying in the bottom of the box falling off the wiring. Old damn asbestos wiring, in old asbestos cable trays in moldy old plants.

And then, they try to do multi-tasking training, like they can teach a janitor to operate switches in a switch yard without killing hisself or someone else.

Really interesting how a hydro plant works, it gets exciter power off the grid to run the generator, the hydraulic govenors control the wicket gates that throttle the water flowing across the turbine wheel. There is this large hydraulic cylinder about ten feet long that throttles them. Each has a shear pin it in for sensing logs with a air monitor, I stepped on one and broke the line going through the pin, the 3 pounds of air flowed out tripping a pressure switch and scramming the unit. When a turbine slams the gates shut, a air breaker kicks in letting air into the turbine to stop it from collapsing the concrete damn walls with it's tons of inertia. That is what makes all the bubbles in the discharge when a unit goes down. But being in the wheel-pit the valve screams as it sucks air hurting your ears a lot. Think about it, making power pulses with a flowing fluid of different levels in the dam to synchronize with existing power waveforms on the lines.

I have crawled around inside the turbines, crawled around inside the generators, Huhng modern lighting all over the plants, worked on the liquid cooled conductors, worked on the Power transformers for phase loss and worked in the switchyards where you pull arcs to your hands everytime you touch something.
Funny thing is they use real horse manure to seal the seals on the turbine shaft. Not just any manure either, real arabian stallion manure.

TVA has been good to me, I'd run through fire to save one of thier plants.

I am proud TVA is here, thou they have taken a wrong turn here and there. They are the reason we have power in the south, and the rest of the nation just followed mostly. The rest of the world just followed the USA I think.

Evan
08-15-2003, 02:49 AM
Jerry,

We have a few things in common. I was in the US army as well. Volunteered in 68, was in artillery, headquarters battery, (Nike Hercules base) at Fort Baker across the Golden Gate bridge looking after the general's helicopter. Nuke command so had a line officer in charge. He had a helicopter which he never used but it had to be inspected every day to make sure there was air in the tires. Got my discharge in 70 and headed north on my way to Denmark to visit relatives.

Spent a summer in High Level, Alberta then got out of town when it snowed a foot on Sept 1st. Met a beautiful girl in Edmonton that year and am still married to her. Didn't make it to Europe until 95.

jfsmith
08-15-2003, 02:54 AM
Thrud,
I thought you used dog wheels to start them. When I see those 10Kv generators with out engines go on sale, I always wonder if I should buy one or two and then look for a car engine. But I never do.
May be this fall I will start that project. Anyone have plans for converting a car engine to LP gas?

Jerry

dhammer
08-15-2003, 04:41 AM
jfsmith..

Converting a car engine to Lp gas isn't all that difficult. You need a LP vaporizer, lock out, and a LP carb. You'll also need a LP fuel tank like a tank from a forklift. Some of the conversion components are relatively inexpensive and can be found used. LP carbs are cheaper than gas carbs but wear out fairly quickly. You'll have to adjust your timing and use colder sparkplugs.

I work for a LP company and we had lots of our trucks (big block Chevys) converted to LP. We've switched to diesels now because the new computer controlled engines are hard and very expensive to convert.

BC21OSH
08-15-2003, 08:22 AM
Jerry,

I've seen a lot of old LP fueled forklifts sold as scrap since the forklift itself was pretty worn out. The engine still had life with a little TLC. Most are little four and six cylinder engines so they are pretty economical.

Bernard

SGW
08-15-2003, 08:23 AM
For a while there was a company called Intelligen that was making a house-sized cogeneration system to heat your house and, as a by-product, generate electricity. It would NOT run, however, without power on "the grid," so in a power failure it was dead. The company explained that the primary purpose of the unit was HEAT, not electricity, and it worked that way at the request of the power companies -- they didn't want any chance of rogue generators energizing power lines that were supposedly "dead" and killing their workers. Still, it seems as though they could have figured out a way to do it, and then one wouldn't have had a useless 5KW generator sitting in the basement during a power failure.
Anyway, the company went bankrupt, the last I knew.

metal mite
08-15-2003, 08:41 AM
bdarin,

Which of the nine demo....ts do you support in the next election?

Oh Forget it.

I'm really not interested!

He may not be your president, but he's mine.

Some just show off their own ignorance and intolerance.

mite

steve schaeffer
08-15-2003, 09:18 AM
To all without power:
i apologize, i was playing around on the lathe ,you know the one with the new variable frequency drive, and i had this piece of three inch bar stock in there so i wanted to see what that baby had in it. i started cutting with a hss bit, no nose radius, nice and sharp. kept trying heavier and heavier cuts, with the intention of trying to find the stalling point or breaking point of the tool. damn thing kept cutting like a champ. i had that topslide screwed in to a .75" cut a 1700 rpms, though the chips were a little blue, she was cuttin like a mo-fo! then the wiring in my garage blew right through the drywall and shorted out that doo dunny on the street pole and wham, ended up chain reacting all over the ding dang coast. Chalk that up to lack of experience.

hah, im a machinist!

ps, only time will tell what really happened, bush is my president. may be a little slow, but hes tryin.

Oso
08-15-2003, 10:16 AM
Evan, don't get too proud of those hydro plants, they are "environmentally unsound".

To paraphrase the real eco nuts:

Nuclear power: do we really need to debate why those are totally unacceptable?

Coal fired: Put out more radiation than a nuc plant, plus greenhouse gases and pollutants. Not acceptable.

Natural gas plants: Better than some, but gas is limited in supply and needed to heat homes. Still produces pollutants. Not an option.

Diesel plants: A typical fossil fuel plant, pollutes. Not acceptable.

Hydroelectric: Disrupts huge natural systems, destroys thousands of square miles of habitat, chews up fish. Not remotely acceptable.

Photovoltaic ( solar cells): The production process creates some of the the most toxic wastes on earth. Limited lifetime requires continuous production and more highly toxic wastes. Not acceptable.

Leaves a lot of options, doesn't it?


Maybe the power faliure here will light a fire under someone and get them to fix the electric in Iraq.
I bet the Iraqis are laughing their asses off at the poor yuppies squalling and whining in NYC about a few minutes or hours without power.

wierdscience
08-15-2003, 10:24 AM
Take your windmills,fuelcells,and solar panels and shove them,they suck and are very expensive for what they produce.

The problem is we have this I call it head in the sand attitude about power generation,we don't want to build new plants because of the invironuts having taken control.Our population is still growing but somehow we think the same number of plants will support the increased load,idiots.

Enron,thats all I hear is Enron,lets get some facts,first they did not nor do they now produce any power,they bought and sold power produced by others thats it,second Bush keeps getting the blame for the Enron disaster even though Clintoon had Eight years to do something about it,but the SEC was for sale like everthing else,if you think for one minute that Ken Lay paid $1,000,000 to spend a night in the Lincoln bedroom because the motel six was full I want to sell you a bridge.

We have had people plunged into poverty because we can't burn coal anymore,we run our hydo plants at 20% or less because of the inviroment,people are stupid and they desrve what they get! Rant mode off!

debequem
08-15-2003, 11:20 AM
Just checking the facts...

The President said, as an answer to a reporter's question, "I've heard reports about a lightening strike in Niagara Falls, New York, and federal officials, of course, are investigating the veracity of that."

I've listened to his speech, read the text, but no where did I hear him state Niagara Falls was the root of this power outage, let alone all of New York City's problems.

You can find the full text of his speech and the reporter's questions at:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/08/20030814-4.html

If you care to check the facts.

Marv

Evan
08-15-2003, 12:33 PM
OSO,

You forgot:

Windmills: Kills birds by the millions and can be real noisy too.

Tidal power: Fish kills, tidal basin ecology disrupted.

Geothermal: Highly expensive, limited availability.

Hamster wheels: Limited output, waste disposal problems, suceptible to outages by cat.

ibewgypsie
08-15-2003, 01:15 PM
All I can say to the presidents speech he did not state,,,,,, " It wasn't me!.. I didn't do it! My daughters and wife can vouch for me"

kap pullen
08-15-2003, 04:26 PM
lbardin

When you liberals can't make a sensible argument (most of the time), you start the name calling and insults.

kap

Evan
08-15-2003, 04:43 PM
Ya know, one of the things I really like about this forum is the lack of flame wars and personal insults. It is really nice to have discussions and even disagreements without all the unnecessary personal innuendo, derogatory comments and sniping. Can we please keep it that way?

bdarin
08-15-2003, 05:31 PM
Got you guys goin' pretty good, there, didn't I? A: I'm not a liberal or a democrat.
B: I voted for Bush and supported him right up until our guys started getting picked off daily in that turkey shoot over in Viet, er, Iraq.
C: I stand corrected on Bush's speech, he was repeating what that turd Bloomberg in NYC said. It would be better for all of us if NYC seceded from the state. Kind of parallel to LA and California situation. One bad, big apple can bring down the whole state.
What the hell, blame Canada!

Evan
08-15-2003, 05:46 PM
It seems that what has been an ever increasing problem at the individual level, that is, the unwillingness to accept responsibility for one's own actions, is now becoming a national preoccupation in the US. The forest companies blame Canada for their failure to modernize. The US blames Canada for a mad cow that almost certainly came from the US. US blames Canada for subsidizing grain farmers!!!! Cripes, ever heard of the US land bank program? And now the US is trying to shift the blame to Canada for the power failure. Even if it did somehow start in Canada it is still the complete lack of action in the US to modernize and improve the grid infrastructure that produced the result seen, both in the US and Canada.

Time to pull collective head out of butt.

wierdscience
08-15-2003, 09:08 PM
Well truth is we have always considered Canada as the 51st state. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
Evan,Canada always blames us as much as we blame Canada,you still reap what you sow.

goldassayer
08-15-2003, 11:15 PM
Gentlemen
Politics is everything.

The facts are
1. The US congress is currently debating the
Energy Bill.
2. All power plants and power lines are monitored by computer with clock accurate to better than one second.
The Mayor of New York in His broadcast 2 hours after the blackout started stated he talked to the chairman of the board of ConEd and was told
A. it definately was not terrorist activity
B. we have no idea how it started
3. a day later and the power companies still cannot decide what plant was the first to go down.

The above data make it obvious that the power companies are having trouble getting the Energy Bill through Congress in the form they would like so they pulled the plug to make a point.

pete

WJHartson
08-15-2003, 11:59 PM
Since we are not building new powerhouses, for whatever reason, we will continue to have power blackouts. The grid gets overloaded and operations personnel are not willing to shed load to save the grid and let it go until the imbalance and overload is to severe to recover from and the cascade starts. I have been involved with powerhouses in third world countries and have seen this happen over and over. When the system gets overloaded and becomes unstable load must be shed to save the system. Without sheding load to gain control and stability blackouts will occur. Getting everything back on line takes time and will be done in steps with the large areas being put on last. This helps stablize the grid on restart.

I have my own standby generator, live in hurricane country, and have used it several times. It will run on natural gas, propane, or gasoline. It is a 4 cylinder Onan gen set. Can be configure for any voltage up to 600 Volt single or 3 phase. Mine is set up for single phase right now. All I do is throw a transfer switch and start the engine. Let it build up a little heat in the engine and stablize rpm, switch on the breaker and I'm in business. Runs my well so I have water also.

You can buy old generators in very good shape with very low hours(under 500 hours)like the one I have for about $2500. They were used in grocery store for backup and many have been removed or replaced.

The government and power companies only put out what they want you to know and hot what actually happened.

Joe

Oso
08-16-2003, 12:42 AM
Weird....

Photovoltaic is no more expensive than other backups, with the advantage that it never runs out of fuel.

Wind or mini-hydro are less expensive per watt, and somewhat more dependable, in the right location.

My PV system has 2500 watts of inverter power and happily runs garage tools and anything else (like the fridge) on demand.

I like it. gonna keep it.

Besides, the panels won't fit where you suggested to put them http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

wierdscience
08-16-2003, 01:21 AM
I live in Hurricane country too and like JT says pv don't work worth s--- in a storm,no direct sunlight,also 2500watts of 110vac from a $300.00 generator is still cheaper than 2500watts of pv which don't work after dark http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

I do use them,but only for keeping my vehicle,forklift,crane batteries topped off.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 08-16-2003).]

Thrud
08-16-2003, 02:45 AM
Oso:
A company here in Canada developed a low cost (yeah, sure) FLEXABLE high output solar panel. You can roll them up like a rug. Almost impossible to damage with hail as the silicon is in its natural spherical form and very tough. If I remember the company name I will post it.

I think a solar/battery storage system is a good idea. I cannnot say I like the large lead/acid storage cells that are being used. If I did it I would use a bunch of Optima deep cycle off-road batteries. Cheaper too...


[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 08-16-2003).]

Evan
08-16-2003, 05:14 AM
http://www.ovonic.com/our_company/1_2_history/history.htm

wierdscience
08-16-2003, 11:24 AM
What ever happened to the guys making solar roof singles?May as well have them do something while their not doing anything.

Digger
08-16-2003, 12:42 PM
What is alarming here is the demonstration just how antique our overloaded electrical system is.
We have just had a shutdown with no reported damage, all that is needed is a controlled restart to get things back up but that still takes time.

Due to the world wide coverage of this and I've only seen the BBC news, it must be quite apparent to a terrorist group that to take 4 or 5 major distribution centres out will leave the world greatest power without electricity for weeks whilst repairs are being made.
Meanwhile China which, like the rest of the world, has no Homeland Security department is making up any manufacturing shortfall.
Does this tell us something?
What it tells me is that whilst we shore up our outdated system, money that should have been going into this will have gone overseas for a better return on capital.

[This message has been edited by Digger (edited 08-16-2003).]

tonydacrow
08-16-2003, 02:09 PM
You guys forgot the most important factor in cost of generation: the government! Here in Kalifornicate, our idiot governor (soon to be a thing of the past) has us buying electricity at more than 300% higher than it's worth. Add to that a Kalifornicate tax credit of 50% for photovoltaics and a depreciated federal tax credit and they BEGIN to make sense. As with everthing, socialist governments believe they can alter the laws of economics right up until the system crashes (ancient Rome, former Soviet Union, Kalifornicate in about 10 years.)

Oso
08-16-2003, 11:46 PM
You wrote:
[B] I live in Hurricane country too and like JT says pv don't work worth s--- in a storm,no direct sunlight,also 2500watts of 110vac from a $300.00 generator is still cheaper than 2500watts of pv which don't work after dark http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif
...............

They are called batteries......... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//rolleyes.gif

Makes a PV work all night http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif
After fuel runs out, the PV is still going http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

The folks I know that have $5000 worth of PV system have all the power they can use, and saved $5000 over what the power Co wanted to bring them grid power from over the ridge.

The panels we have have stood up to 80mph wind, should be OK to 100. So far so good.

And, surprisingly, in overcast conditions, they put out over 15% of the full sun rating. There is more light than you think. The idea that you must have direct sun or output is zero is just propaganda from the power company.

BTW, there is a move for power co's to let you buy a rooftop PV system from them, and then sell you the power from it.......nice gouge. They must think PV works.

BTW, the cascading failure would be curable with a predictive and co-ordinated computer system. It would ideally drop the offending load off of all suppliers as soon as the overload was evident and rate of rise was predicted to exceed the capacity of the suppliers.

One would have to let it request a drop-off from all the other relevant power control computers of the grid so that an "island" could be isolated all at one time.

That would prevent the system from having a domino effect back as more overloads occur when each section drops the load.

It would also warn of problems by dropping bad loads more often. Then the places like NYC and LA could decide earlier just how "NIMBY" they wanted to be.


Anyhow, as IBEWGYPSIE knows, with fuses and breakers locally in the distribution system, there is "co-ordination", a grading and circuiting so that a fault will be isolated to one line or area. It is surprising that this is not done better nationally.



[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 08-17-2003).]

milmat1
08-17-2003, 02:20 AM
Sheeeww!!
This one has realy went around and back!
The power grid system is much like the economy, It's a miracle if it stays together for more than a day anyway. Fragile !!
Like most things we will never know the truth about what happened, they will find some cock and bull story to feed us to keep us all quiet and productive.
I am tired of hearing the bush bash as well! Nothing in government(as you will all agree)happens quikly. Hell it takes two weeks to decide what they are having for lunch, and theres a special team just for that.
To think that the massive job losses, due to imports and the downturned economy is somehow bush's fault is crazy to say the least.
The reason the economy was doing so well was because of regan/bush. clinton just road on the shirt tails and took credit for it.
After clinton sold our ass to the chinese to buy Hilary a senate seat, Bush jr. come along and catches all the flack. Thats just how politics work.
"Vote For No Incumbents" That will shake the bag up!!

SJorgensen
08-17-2003, 04:54 AM
You must be living in a different world. You should re-evaluate the cause and effect with real world parameters. You may have been listening to too much Rush Limbaugh. Also it wasn't the attack on the World Trade Towers that caused the economic problems we are facing. But it didn't help. Things were well on their way down the tubes with all the profit taking of the Republicans. The surplus the Bush administration started with was shoved into their pockets so fast it must have shocked the Mafia. I suspected that the Bush administration had prior knowledge of the 9/11 attack only because of how everything was going so downhill for the administration and they said nothing and then on the day of the attack the president, who isn't known for eloquence had some pretty good speeches prepared. Just in the last two weeks I found out that there was a briefing for the president about the possibility of an attack by aircraft two months before 9/11. I believe the information that they had was specific. They were monitoring the cell phones of most of these terrorists who where the top of our nations list. Even Osama Bin Laden's mother's phone was monitored. The administration won't reveal the contents of the security briefing nor will they reveal the discussion of the meetings they had with the Enron folks over energy policy for our nation. To me these are much more interesting subjects. I couldn't give a rat's ass about anything that Monica Lewinsky ever could have said or done to Bill Clinton. I can't wait until this administration is over and some of the CEO's that are robbing the country blind are in jail.

Spence


[This message has been edited by SJorgensen (edited 08-17-2003).]

wierdscience
08-17-2003, 01:09 PM
Ya people are still trying their damnest to pin the Enron thing on Bush,well enough,the reason the only reason we are in an economic downturn is because of idiot investors who much like the 1920's bought stock in over valued companies and lost their a-- just like they did in 1929,you have all these compaies that are not worth the money that being literaly thrown at them,the simple fact is that the bulk of American investors are stupid,they know nothing of valuation,cash assets and finacial statments,all they see is the bottom line,stupid behavior,they get what they deserve.

The budget surplus is not really a surplus,its money we the taxayers want back!!!!That includes me!Why idiots all over the country complain about the tax cut is beyond me,If it really hurts them that they have to scream about it,then send it back to the government,so far no takers!Funny,everbody wants to b---h about it but nobody turns it down either!

Ever notice the stockmarket lately?Its back up to nearly 10,000 gee I wonder why?Have you seen retail sales lately?They went up as well?Gee I wonder why?Tax refund checks!That extra $300-$400 sure comes in handy for most people.

I do love the double standard that liberals have,its okay for JFK to give the largest tax cut in US history,but not for a republican like Bush?

Now for terrorism,Clinton ignored the problem for 8 years,except for the two times in which he attacked Iraq,once during Puala Jones and once during Impeachment,also he attacked Bin Ladin while the senate voted to impeach,oh and that really helped Bin Ladins cause to have an American president attack him while being impeached for lying about getting not one but several "sexualfavors" in the oval office.

We them have the crowd who calls Bush a war monger,even though Clintoon deployed US troops more times than any other president combined,all while doing everything he could to weaken and demoralize the troops.RANT MODE OFF.

Oh and batteires do suck royaly http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif way to much maintainence.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 08-17-2003).]

Oso
08-17-2003, 07:25 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by wierdscience:

Oh and batteires do suck royaly http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif way to much maintainence.

[This message has been edited by wierdscience (edited 08-17-2003).]</font>

OK, if yours suck so bad, I'll take them off your hands.......no problem, if practical location and type wise.......... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//wink.gif