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View Full Version : Headstock belt change on Taiwanese lathe?



Jeffw5555
03-02-2009, 10:56 PM
I picked up this Winchester- Shen Wai lathe a few weeks back. I'm in the midst of getting it up and running good. Had to come up with backing plates for the odd spindle thread (2"X8tpi) ; almost have it figured out & will post pictures of what I did later.

It's cutting chips for the backing plate project now. It seems pretty well made for an Asian lathe. However, the spindle drive belt is in bad shape & needs replaced. A google search for this lathe comes up dry, and I'm hoping someone has seen something similar to help point me in the right direction.

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win1.jpg

It appears to have tapered bearings with a carrier in each end. It looks to me that the two spanner nuts are used to set and lock preload?:

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win2.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win3.jpg

The main back gear on the right is obviously is mounted (keyed?) to the spindle, but I dont see how it stays rigid to the shaft, unless there's a set screw or something under the pulley. There appears to be a collar with a set screw on the left that must hold the pulley/gear assembly in place, and there is a set screw on the pulley that must hold it in place on the backgear drive shaft/gear:

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/win4.jpg

I would be most appreciative for any wisdom the team can offer. I guess I will start by backing off the spanner nuts, & remove the end plates to see how things come apart. (I guess the swarf tray will catch the oil!)

Jeff

Carld
03-02-2009, 11:01 PM
How about the adjustable link belts. You can use as many links as it takes to get the right length.

Pherdie
03-02-2009, 11:13 PM
How about the adjustable link belts. You can use as many links as it takes to get the right length.

A great belt ,but not for bi-directional rotation applications.

Fred

sch
03-02-2009, 11:13 PM
Such as http://www.mcmaster.com/#2243k13/=u2d7h
Cheaper variants available, Grizzly and Harbor Freight
sell but that belt looks to be at least a 5V. Might save
a headstock tear down. Clik on the catalog page on the L side of
the page for more options, they have upto 3/4" wide link belts.

alanganes
03-02-2009, 11:15 PM
If that is a 10"X24", one of my lathes is essentially the exact same machine, except mine is painted green and says "JET" on the front. I used one of the adjustable link belts that Carld suggested. Works great and is much less work than tearing the spindle down.

I have a JET manual. It is not too detailed, but has some blow-up type drawing that may be helpful. I think I may have some scans of the the spindle drawing that I can email to you, if I can find it.

All in all a decent machine in that size, I like mine.

Nosmo
03-02-2009, 11:19 PM
They are nice well made lathes. I have one from the same factory but a later model. Taking the spindle apart is relatively easy , watch for set screws in pulleys etc. HOWEVER. I think you will be much happier with the red link belts made by Fenner. I know I am and its a 15 minute job to replace the factory belt.

Jeffw5555
03-02-2009, 11:28 PM
Yes; it's a 10X24. I had read somewhere that Shen Wai made the 1980's vintage Jet lathes.

It would be great if you had any documentation to share with me; I would be most appreciative.

Jeff

Jeffw5555
03-02-2009, 11:38 PM
A great belt ,but not for bi-directional rotation applications.

Fred

I don't see me using this much, if at all in reverse. After all, it has a threaded spindle, so any chuck work is out of the question in reverse.....

tattoomike68
03-02-2009, 11:48 PM
Pop the spindle out, its not magic. looks like less then 2 hours work to me. About 30 minutes and its on the bench. the other time is setting it up all again. hell I bet 10 minutes and the spindle is out and 20 minutes getting it clean ready to go back together.(rolls of paper towels work well at that point)

If you own it you may as well get after it.

I bet the guy who put it together to start with was not a wizzard he just did it. That one is an easy one.

Ian B
03-03-2009, 12:49 AM
If it was me, I'd go for a link belt. In theory, they work best in one direction. In reality, they work fine in both directions. Install it so that it's correct for normal direction. That'll probably be its direction of rotation for 99% of the time.

Also, just how heavy a cut can you take with the spindle running backwards when you have a threaded on chuck? I'd think the chuck would drop off before the belt gave any troubles.

Ian

speedy
03-03-2009, 05:04 AM
Hi Jeff, mine was a Taiwan built Lantaine 12 x 36.
Here is the manual http://www.bbssystem.com/viewtopic.php?t=608

This may also help
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=10163&highlight=lantaine


I would be most appreciative for any wisdom the team can offer
When using the back gears be sure to disengage the bullgear lock-pin.

if you choose to remove the spindle shaft; 'O' ring the spindle shaft collars to prevent oil draining from the rear bearing

Jeffw5555
03-03-2009, 08:19 AM
I measured the pulley today; it clearly is a 5V. (It looks like it has a B belt on it, although it could just be swollen on the top) Of the Fenner and other brands of link-style belts, I couldn't see any that explicitly fit a 5V (5/8"). What do you guys use? Seems that the 9/16" probably is close..

Jeff

Alistair Hosie
03-03-2009, 12:23 PM
link belt here too stuff science.:DAlistair

attie
11-05-2016, 03:51 PM
I am aware that it has been quiet some time since the above discussion but I still hope that this message will reach the right people. I have recently purchased a Shen Wai Winchester Model No 250 manufactured in 1980
Is there anybody who can help me with any form of manual/instructions or any relevant literature on the machine ???
Any help at all shall be highly appreciated !!!

Danl
11-05-2016, 04:54 PM
I am aware that it has been quiet some time since the above discussion but I still hope that this message will reach the right people. I have recently purchased a Shen Wai Winchester Model No 250 manufactured in 1980
Is there anybody who can help me with any form of manual/instructions or any relevant literature on the machine ???
Any help at all shall be highly appreciated !!!

When you do a Google search for these, you may want to include the 15 or so different names for very similar Taiwanese lathes manufactured during that era as shown at http://www.lathes.co.uk/taiwan/

Perhaps you can stumble across some additional help that way.

Dan

Timo
11-05-2016, 06:40 PM
Your lathe looks almost identical to my old Jet 12 x 24 lathe. I had no desire to mess around with removing the spindle to change the old cracked V belt. My advise to you is do what I did and get the link type belt, I wish I had done it years ago, it really worked out great. Runs really smooth.

old mart
11-05-2016, 07:26 PM
The Smart & Brown at the museum has a link belt from the motor to the three speed gearbox and then a flat belt to the headstock spindle. The lathe goes in reverse no problems, allowing for the screw thread mounting. I bought a length of US made link belt as a spare, there are no directional markings on it.

KiddZimaHater
11-05-2016, 07:41 PM
Use the link-belt.
(It makes no sense to tear apart the spindle just to replace a belt).
I use one on my 1980's JET 1236P.
And YES, they work just fine in Forward or Reverse.
I don't know where the past poster heard they don't run well in reverse. ???

alanganes
11-05-2016, 08:12 PM
I am aware that it has been quiet some time since the above discussion but I still hope that this message will reach the right people. I have recently purchased a Shen Wai Winchester Model No 250 manufactured in 1980
Is there anybody who can help me with any form of manual/instructions or any relevant literature on the machine ???
Any help at all shall be highly appreciated !!!

As I said earlier in this thread, I have what is the same machine badged as a JET. I have had it for 20+years and still like it very much. I do have a manual for it, and have a scan lurking on a computer here someplace. Be glad to send it to you if I can find it. Other wise I can scan my original again, may take me a bit to get that done, though.

Still have the link belt on it as well, the same one I put in maybe 19 years ago.

Arcane
11-05-2016, 08:27 PM
The Smart & Brown at the museum has a link belt from the motor to the three speed gearbox and then a flat belt to the headstock spindle. The lathe goes in reverse no problems, allowing for the screw thread mounting. I bought a length of US made link belt as a spare, there are no directional markings on it.

Here you go.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0603/Arcane/Twist%20Lock%20Belt/TwistLockBelt.jpg

Noitoen
11-05-2016, 08:37 PM
Fenner Nu-T-Link works in both directions and is resistant to oils.

http://www.fennerdrives.com/nutlink/

https://www.google.pt/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn02.fennerdrives.com% 2F_resources%2F_global%2Fmedia%2Fresized%2F00003%2 Fihwx.0f253af6-cb56-4d36-9d46-af34b34ea4f2.500.500.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fennerdrives.com%2Fnutl ink%2F_%2FNuTLink-A%2F13%2F4L%2F%3F%3D&docid=qNY83utSZkAYGM&tbnid=RKCvxv2afhtp5M%3A&vet=1&w=500&h=500&bih=678&biw=1366&ved=0ahUKEwjTqsmL5JLQAhXCaRQKHZMqCMMQMwgeKAIwAg&iact=mrc&uact=8

Oldguy
11-05-2016, 09:08 PM
I've got a cousin to this lathe. It's branded as a Morgon CBL-940 and was built by Frejoth in Taiwan in 1985. I have the original manual and it's almost useless. A much better manual is the one for the Grizzly G9249 that can be downloaded here:

http://cdn0.grizzly.com/manuals/g9249_m.pdf

On page 35 is information about using the backgear. On page 54 they recommend the use of a link type belt when replacing the spindle belt. It's a great manual for lubrication, adjustment and use of these lathes.

Glenn

greystone
11-06-2016, 05:12 AM
Use a link belt.

Second:
The motor always runs the same direction, the belt always runs the same direction.
Its the gears at back that reverse the rotation, or the backgear inside it.

Mine is a similar 12x24, heavy model, so its very rigid.

I went to a ac brushless servo drive, with timing belt, 2.5 kW, at 1:3, for 90 Nm of torque.
HTD8-30, so 30 mm wide.
Really glad I did, now have *perfect* speeds and indexing.

So much torque, cannot ever miss even 2 encoder counts, at 10.000:1 x 3 => 30.000 counts / rev of spindle.

GEP
11-06-2016, 08:58 AM
I picked up this Winchester- Shen Wai lathe a few weeks back. I'm in the midst of getting it up and running good. Had to come up with backing plates for the odd spindle thread (2"X8tpi) ; almost have it figured out & will post pictures of what I did later.

It's cutting chips for the backing plate project now. It seems pretty well made for an Asian lathe. However, the spindle drive belt is in bad shape & needs replaced. A google search for this lathe comes up dry, and I'm hoping someone has seen something similar to help point me in the right direction.

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win1.jpg

It appears to have tapered bearings with a carrier in each end. It looks to me that the two spanner nuts are used to set and lock preload?:

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win2.jpg

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/Win3.jpg

The main back gear on the right is obviously is mounted (keyed?) to the spindle, but I dont see how it stays rigid to the shaft, unless there's a set screw or something under the pulley. There appears to be a collar with a set screw on the left that must hold the pulley/gear assembly in place, and there is a set screw on the pulley that must hold it in place on the backgear drive shaft/gear:

http://i617.photobucket.com/albums/tt259/Jeffw5555/win4.jpg

I would be most appreciative for any wisdom the team can offer. I guess I will start by backing off the spanner nuts, & remove the end plates to see how things come apart. (I guess the swarf tray will catch the oil!)

Jeff

I just hooked a friend up with the same lathe it is a enco. It sat in a heated building all its life, had practically no use. He paid $300.00 for it

BCRider
11-06-2016, 10:44 AM
Use a link belt.

Second:
The motor always runs the same direction, the belt always runs the same direction.
Its the gears at back that reverse the rotation, or the backgear inside it........

On the lathe in the pictures that isn't the case. For the belt drive setup shown the motor itself has to go into reverse to run the head in reverse. My lathe has a similar belt drive head but with the head stock "box" that encloses all the pulleys. And these models certainly do run the motor in reverse for running the headstock in reverse.

This may not be the case with gear drive head stocks but I've yet to find a belt drive head where any sort of reversing gear is included other than the tumbler gears for the feeds.

J Tiers
11-06-2016, 11:50 AM
I assume that machine has a back gear? It IS a nicer machine. They even used helical gears instead of spur gears in what looks like a back gear. Back gears seem to have been universally left off of ALL asian machines for the last 20 years.

Since there seem to be several pulleys, no levers, and a flip-top, presumably it is belt changes for speed changes? The pulleys don't look that different, but the photo is a bit dark right in that area, so it may be an illusion.

As for running the links belts backwards, the issue seems to be the "internal belt tang" at every link. In "forward", the tangs are forced to lay down as the belt contacts the pulley, but in reverse, they could possibly "double up" and fold under, which would either force the belt outwards over the "bump", or even disengage the "tang" and open the belt.

I don't know if that really occurs in actual use. It may depend on pulley size. I'd expect it to be worse for the smallest pulleys the belt can be used with.

old mart
11-06-2016, 04:32 PM
In the #20 post by Arcane, the type of belt shown is different from the type that has metal connectors, and may be prone to problems if reversed.

J Tiers
11-06-2016, 06:12 PM
In the #20 post by Arcane, the type of belt shown is different from the type that has metal connectors, and may be prone to problems if reversed.

Most of the link belts I have seen are like post #20

darryl
11-06-2016, 07:25 PM
Look at how the links would go through the pulleys- if the motor pulley tended to lay the links down, then the driven pulley would tend to bring them up. The opposite is also true- if the driven pulley tended to lay the links down, then the drive pulley would tend to bring them up. I don't think it makes any difference which way you use it, but perhaps it's a little quieter one way. Or perhaps the links should be made to lay down when pulled by the motor pulley. I can see there possibly being less vibration that way- but then again that might not be true.

I do like link belts- the only issue I've had is that they are taller and might not make it around a corner where there's a housing close to the pulley. On my table saw this is an issue when the blade is raised all the way.

tuckoon
11-06-2016, 07:59 PM
My Lathe is the same basic unit only made in 1972 by the Lin Huong Co. I have been running the link belts in both forward and reverse with no issues or problems other than what Darryl mentioned about them being a bit taller. It is a bit tight when changing speeds over the largest spindle sheave with close clearance between the sheave and the headstock case but totally doable.
Take your time with getting the length on both belts correctly set up as the tension device adjusts both at the same time, you don't want one running tight and the other loose.
Enjoy, steve

alanganes
11-06-2016, 08:43 PM
I assume that machine has a back gear? It IS a nicer machine. They even used helical gears instead of spur gears in what looks like a back gear. Back gears seem to have been universally left off of ALL asian machines for the last 20 years.

Since there seem to be several pulleys, no levers, and a flip-top, presumably it is belt changes for speed changes? The pulleys don't look that different, but the photo is a bit dark right in that area, so it may be an illusion.


You are correct, there are three pulleys in the headstock for speed changes, which are effected quickly using the lever you can see just to the right rear of the headstock which slacks the belts. There is also a two step pulley on the motor, for a total of six speeds, twelve when you include backgear. And the motor IS run in reverse when you run the spindle in reverse. I have not found it an issue with my linked belt.

Overall it is a pretty nice machine, pretty stout for a small 10x24 machine. Also includes a separate drive bar for the carriage and cross feed so you only use the leadscrew for thread cutting. The main weakness I can find is that the steel used in the gears is not super strong, I got mine with a few teeth wiped off of one of the gears in the QC box. Mine has served me well, really.

old mart
11-07-2016, 04:40 PM
Looking on the Fenner Drives website, I eventually found the installation instructions. Both types are directional, the Power Twist Plus and similar have directional instructions.
There is a one page pdf on the Nut Link type which also gives the belt direction, but if you look at the illustrations, they are the wrong way round, must have been approved by a manager.
As for the link belt on the Smart & Brown, I took the old one off years ago to shorten it and measure the length and width for a standby replacement, put it back on and it's still going strong. I have no idea which way round it is. If it breaks, I will install the new one the recommended way round.
As this lathe has a screw thread spindle, reverse will only be used at very low speeds and rarely.

J Tiers
11-07-2016, 05:04 PM
Look at how the links would go through the pulleys- if the motor pulley tended to lay the links down, then the driven pulley would tend to bring them up. The opposite is also true- if the driven pulley tended to lay the links down, then the drive pulley would tend to bring them up. I don't think it makes any difference which way you use it, but perhaps it's a little quieter one way. Or perhaps the links should be made to lay down when pulled by the motor pulley. I can see there possibly being less vibration that way- but then again that might not be true.

I do like link belts- the only issue I've had is that they are taller and might not make it around a corner where there's a housing close to the pulley. On my table saw this is an issue when the blade is raised all the way.

I do not see that. If the belt goes over with those "tabs" in a "trailing" position, they will tend to lay down with either pulley. Reversed, they could "catch", like a porcupine with the spines pointing forward...

mattthemuppet
11-07-2016, 05:36 PM
I do not see that. If the belt goes over with those "tabs" in a "trailing" position, they will tend to lay down with either pulley. Reversed, they could "catch", like a porcupine with the spines pointing forward...

while theoretically correct, once the belt has been used for a while it will take a set and will not "catch". Really, the issue doesn't exist within the realms of home shop machines - perhaps in 5hp+ lathes, but not in the fractional to low single digit machines we use.

The bigger issue in my experience is that the link belts sit higher up in the pulley so that the belt to pulley surface contact is much lower than for a non-link belt. I've experienced slip on both my drill press and lathe - the DP has just had new AX belts put on it and the lathe is going to get a new pulley with a poly-v belt. Link belts are convenient for sure, but my experience with them hasn't been great.

platypus2020
11-07-2016, 06:16 PM
About 15 years ago, the HVAC company, I worked for, replaced all of the v-belts, with Fenner PowerTwist. We eliminated the whole v-belt inventory, in all of the service vehicles, we all got boxes of 3/8", 1/2" and 5/8" segmented belts. Since then, its all we use, no longer, looking for the right size belt, just make it. We have never had an issue, where they did not work, or premature failure, or directional issues, they just work. We have never gone back regular belts.

All of the shop equipment, uses the Fenner belts, mills, lathes, saws and drill presses. I've never seen a place, where they didn't work.

Yondering
11-07-2016, 07:36 PM
I also have essentially the same lathe as the OP; mine is a 13x36 Jet made in 1991. The belts in mine are starting to tear apart, so the link belt info here is good. The Jet manual for the newer 13x40 lathe is close enough to be very useful for this one, and is relatively well written.

JT, yes these have back gear, and require a belt change under the top cover to change speeds. (My one complaint is having to open that top cover to change speeds, since that cover is such a nice place to put tools and parts while I'm working.)

This reminds me, mine has an issue with making slight rings in the work when using power carriage feed. I'll take some pics and start a new post about it, maybe some of you guys can help.

old mart
11-08-2016, 09:22 AM
The Smart & Brown motor is only 1.5 hp three phase and the link belt to the intermediate three speed gearbox is 1/2", 13mm wide. The original manufacturers illustrations show a link belt in this position, although a solid one could be fitted just as easily.
The top of the headstock is round, no possibility of using the top for storing anything.

RWO
11-08-2016, 02:18 PM
I also have essentially the same lathe as the OP; mine is a 13x36 Jet made in 1991. The belts in mine are starting to tear apart, so the link belt info here is good. The Jet manual for the newer 13x40 lathe is close enough to be very useful for this one, and is relatively well written.

JT, yes these have back gear, and require a belt change under the top cover to change speeds. (My one complaint is having to open that top cover to change speeds, since that cover is such a nice place to put tools and parts while I'm working.)

I also have a 13x36 Jet, made in 1988. I replaced the spindle belt with a Fenner link belt about 20 years ago and it is still going strong. Oddly enough the motor belt is original and still looks good.

One excellent way to avoid raising the top cover is to install a 3-phase motor and VFD. No more belt changes. Mine runs 55 RPM (5 Hz) - 1200 RPM (120 Hz)
I can't remember the last time I used back gear. Try it, you'll like it.

RWO