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sid pileski
03-07-2009, 02:37 PM
This morning, after dropping my son off to a Boy Scout event, I thought I'd stop in at the store and pick up a Coke (My morning caffine).
As I was going in, a girl and three guys, all of about 16, were comming out.
The last one had what looked like two reciepts in his hand. He looked at them and just threw them on the ground! A trash can was no more that 10 feet away from them. I stoped in my tracks, and yelled " you gotta be kiddin' me, go pick up your garbage!"
The girl looked at me like I was an alien. The other two guys looked at me and then told the third kid to pick up his garbage. The kid procceded to pick up the garbage, but mouthed me.
When I gave him a little of what he was giving, one of the other guys looks at me and says "there's no need for this kind of disrespect"
Man, I'm not that old but, It seems like this generation just lives by the mantra "what ever!" I sound like my father. But I'll tell you, I never even thought about doing or saying the things that they do.
Unfortunatly, I see it in my oun kids. And I'm a hard ass. Yet they get it from the schools.

OK, I've vented.

Sid

hardtail
03-07-2009, 03:03 PM
There are some good kids out there, unfortunately you need near bionic vision to spy one.......LOL The elder respect amoungst other things appear to be all but gone it maybe the media generation constantly bombarded with e gadgets and youtube???????

I recall driving home a few years ago after working a 12 hr nightshift and was weary when a kid wearing those pants halfway to the ground stepped out in front of me and another car at an unmarked crossing, we had to come to a complete stop to cater to him, when I shrugged my shoulders to imitate whats up he gave me the finger, I slammed on the parking brake and shot out of the drivers door at which point he was now on a run across the field, I yelled that I wasn't too old to take a round outa him.......the sad part is if I tried it today your takin a gamble on being shot but at some point where does the decay stop????????

I hear ya loud and clear..........

Not living in the big cities I'm not up on all that goes on but a recent activity boiled my blood, teen guys and gals on the subway slapping an elderly lady and taking pics of her reaction on their cellphones and sharing it with their friends.......I don't know if they'd be able to retrieve that phone from their innards but you'd probably only get a knife shoved into your back by their gutless coward friends.......

winchman
03-07-2009, 03:07 PM
I've been pretty fortunate. Most of the kids I see are at the tech school, and none of them have been disrespectful to me. Most of them call me "Mr. Roger", which is fine with me.

I just wish they knew more. It's pretty sad when they can't read a tape measure or don't know what a file (the metal kind) is.

Roger

nheng
03-07-2009, 03:23 PM
We live in a very quiet, small, New England city (not that that matters). One evening some years back when my kids were much younger, we were walking past a bench outside a stripline mall when several girls and guys were being pretty loud with language reserved for when you mill off your fingertip.

I asked them to please watch their language. One of the girls without hesitation, told me to go f-ck myself. Not wanting to take it any further, my next response to the kids was ... "look guys, ice cream !" ... pointing to an ice cream store.

Some grow out of this, some don't. They all become voters and we are now seeing the first results of our society's more recent efforts at rearing intelligent adults.

BillH
03-07-2009, 03:25 PM
Kids are like dogs. Very nice by themselves usually. When in packs, they feel invincible and above everything else.
All the kids I am around are very professional driven and have a goal in life, to become an airline pilot. I never have to deal with the trash.

rdfeil
03-07-2009, 03:37 PM
I hear what you are all saying. I'm in my mid 40's and I don't remember even really thinking about disrespecting adults when I was a teenager, It just wasn't done!! My wife is a teacher, teaches freshman and sophomore English, and for the most part the kids are pretty good. The one thing she mentions on a regular basis is the general disrespect for the class and her. Not mean or foul language or that type of thing just generally talking and goofing off in class while she is talking or other students are trying to do their work. Example, she is currently doing Romeo and Juliet (sp?) in her freshman class. To give the kids a better understanding of the older language type and word usage she is having them read the play out loud in class, with the students reading various parts like the performers would onstage. Then they will discuss what they have read and ask questions etc. Generally she will have to interrupt the reading several times within the hour to shush over 1/4 of the class who are blatantly talking to each other, sometimes several rows apart :confused: . This is just disrespectful to the other members of the class that are really trying to participate. They just don't get it. It really tells you something when the 'special needs' kids (ADD, reading limited, English speaking limited etc..) generally have better grades and a better understanding of the material than the 'normal aptitude' kids.
I just don't understand how we got so far off track with education. When I was in high school talking in class was almost a capitol infraction, unless the teacher specifically allowed it.

Sorry, I guess this turned into a rant, not my intention :rolleyes:

Robin

IdahoJim
03-07-2009, 03:45 PM
This morning, after dropping my son off to a Boy Scout event, I thought I'd stop in at the store and pick up a Coke (My morning caffine).
As I was going in, a girl and three guys, all of about 16, were comming out.
The last one had what looked like two reciepts in his hand. He looked at them and just threw them on the ground! A trash can was no more that 10 feet away from them. I stoped in my tracks, and yelled " you gotta be kiddin' me, go pick up your garbage!"
The girl looked at me like I was an alien. The other two guys looked at me and then told the third kid to pick up his garbage. The kid procceded to pick up the garbage, but mouthed me.
When I gave him a little of what he was giving, one of the other guys looks at me and says "there's no need for this kind of disrespect"
Man, I'm not that old but, It seems like this generation just lives by the mantra "what ever!" I sound like my father. But I'll tell you, I never even thought about doing or saying the things that they do.
Unfortunatly, I see it in my oun kids. And I'm a hard ass. Yet they get it from the schools.

OK, I've vented.

Sid

It isn't just the youth that do that. The other day I was sitting in my pickup at Home Depot, and a nice SUV pulled into a parking spot in front of me, and couple of rows over. The window goes down, and a cigarette butt flies out the window. A minute later a nicely-dressed gal in her 50's gets out and goes into the store. With that sort of example it's no wonder the kids act like they do.
Jim

Mcgyver
03-07-2009, 03:48 PM
the its our generation you're complaining about, we raised them. what goes around comes around. Our entire society is out for themselves, jobs go to china because consumers wanting 20 pairs of cheap running shoes, union workers strike for more despite it eventually pushing more jobs offshore, executives sell out shareholders and view the company's money as bounty, socialists want you taxed more so they can have more, etc etc etc. wall street bankers don't have an exclusive on greed, its always been part of the human condition but lately it seems its more manifested itself as the primary driver; no ones ashamed to have it out in front. Both parents work and plunk the kids in daycare and they see everyone as simply looking out for number one. no wonder they're messed. All one can do i think is try to be a good parent, love your kids and support them....personally i don't have the energy to sweat all idjits who did a lousy job at it

nheng
03-07-2009, 03:49 PM
I'll tell you how we got so far off track. It's a combination of all the distracting techology crap around us combined, to some degree, with the behavior of high visibility individuals in society such as rappers, hollywood and a past president. Teens don't even talk now, they text across the room or to the next seat on a bus :eek: , and now, flirting and arranging "connections" by texting.

Many kids have no idea how to enjoy doing something with their minds and or hands. Not saying that as kids we sat down and built and painted bird houses all day but what kid today works on his car, or even HAS TO work on his car. Not many. Fix a sound system, nah. Fix a TV, nah. Fix something at all? Nah, and you can thank our Wal-marts for that.

One ray of hope is that there are still some good educators and some families out there who at least are leaving behind some semblance of a civilized people for future archeologists/anthropologists to study. Spope on this forum is one of them with the machine/tech classes that he runs which appear to inspire.

Fasttrack
03-07-2009, 03:52 PM
I'm a pretty young guy myself. In fact, I'm only 20. I keep hearing the older folks here talking about kids "disrespecting adults". I grant people who are older than me a certain amount of respect based on age alone. I figure they've been around to see alot more crap than I have, and they deserve a little bit of respect for having to put up with it longer than I have.

But "adults" don't deserve any more respect than teens do. When I interact with people older or younger than I am, I base my interactions on what type of people they are. I've met people who were older than I am but who were infinitely less mature and less honest than I am. Do they deserve my respect just because they're older than I am? No. I think it's important to remember that everyone, no matter how old or young, are people and should be treated as such. Furthermore, you shouldn't expect respect unless you show some respect.

That being said, I agree with what you all have said. The examples that you've given are of teenagers who are clearly not respectable individuals. Nice job Sid, for calling them out. Alot of folks in my hometown let their children get away with murder. Personally, I'm looking forward to being an old man. I intend to be that grumpy old b*astard who sits in a rocking chair and yells at kids who walk on his lawn :D

Frank Ford
03-07-2009, 03:52 PM
I was at a local convenience store the other day, and a kid about 12 bought a few snack items, and when the clerk started to put them in a bag, the youngster said, "I brought my own bag, here." The clerk asked him for something like $4.65, and the kid handed him a five and said, "Keep the change."

There are lots of good 'uns out there, and sometimes we see what we look for, if you know what I mean.

Your Old Dog
03-07-2009, 03:54 PM
I'm sitting at a red light when the girl in front of me drops a pop can out the window. When the light turned green I pulled up to the can, opened the door and picked it up. I thought I'd follow her for a bit and not soon after that she pulls in the yard of a nice home. As I pulled up to the curb in front of her home it looked like she was greeting her mom in the driveway. Her mom looks in my direction to see what I wanted and I said, "here, you daughter dropped this at the red light a few miles back" and then I flung it out the window into the middle of their lawn. Nothing further was said, I just drove off.

I remember a "Give a Hoot, don't pollute" campain in the 60's that was very successfull. They made you feel guilty for throwing anything out the window. Looks like we're do to run the campain once again.

sid pileski
03-07-2009, 04:05 PM
BillH- I think you touched on a good point.
I find kids that have some goal in life tend to be more driven than to just exist.
My Kids included. I try to find the thing that they will have a passion for. But it's hard. I'm from the Skaneateles NY area. I think you know where that is.
In general, we're out in the country, but the "bad" influences are still here.
My wife stays at home, intensionaly for these reasons.
It's a never ending battle. Hope I (and my kids) win!

Sid

jkilroy
03-07-2009, 04:08 PM
I just got back from a three day product demo for some prospective clients from Israel. These folks were the smartest folks I have had the pleasure of working with in years, YEARS! I have never worked with a single individual from ANY U.S. Federal agency that was qualified to stand with these folks, very impressive. On top of that, the manners, and general behavior of these people reminded me of what I was used to as a child. I commented to my wife that if we wanted our children to get a good education we should leave the country.

hardtail
03-07-2009, 04:26 PM
I hear what you are all saying. I'm in my mid 40's and I don't remember even really thinking about disrespecting adults when I was a teenager, It just wasn't done!! My wife is a teacher, teaches freshman and sophomore English, and for the most part the kids are pretty good. The one thing she mentions on a regular basis is the general disrespect for the class and her. Not mean or foul language or that type of thing just generally talking and goofing off in class while she is talking or other students are trying to do their work. Example, she is currently doing Romeo and Juliet (sp?) in her freshman class. To give the kids a better understanding of the older language type and word usage she is having them read the play out loud in class, with the students reading various parts like the performers would onstage. Then they will discuss what they have read and ask questions etc. Generally she will have to interrupt the reading several times within the hour to shush over 1/4 of the class who are blatantly talking to each other, sometimes several rows apart :confused: . This is just disrespectful to the other members of the class that are really trying to participate. They just don't get it. It really tells you something when the 'special needs' kids (ADD, reading limited, English speaking limited etc..) generally have better grades and a better understanding of the material than the 'normal aptitude' kids.
I just don't understand how we got so far off track with education. When I was in high school talking in class was almost a capitol infraction, unless the teacher specifically allowed it.

Sorry, I guess this turned into a rant, not my intention :rolleyes:

Robin

Lots of parents now view the education system as a glorified daycare, think about it the next teachers strike, one parent in ten will complain about concern on lost days learning vs the outcry of inconviencing their work routine.....

Taxes seem to be so high now that the stay at home mom is a thing of the past.......whos raising our biggest investment in life ....our kids......

Credit has diminished the respect of the dollar.......don't worry about earning it just charge it on credit.....

This cellphone and texting thing is out of control........

FT you do raise good point on the respect thing, I guess years ago older mostly meant better societal values.......

Mike Burdick
03-07-2009, 04:39 PM
I don't know if kids today are that much different...maybe even a little better!

When I was young I can remember driving down the highway and seeing people throwing out trash - gobs of trash! Remember route 66 in the 50's? I don't see that happening too often these days.

The concern I have with the younger folks is that they are raised on not being able to have a knife - even plastic. Forced to endure "bullies" in school and not being able to fight back, or for that matter, being a bully themselves and not having to worry about being punched themselves. I read where a child had book showing WWII guns and the principal confiscated it. We are responsible for this stupidity!

I have been fortunate to meet quite a few of our young people serving, or have served, in Iraq and elsewhere. I'm proud of these men and women and as these people move into business, politics, and society in general I'm confident they will make our country great once again!

Alistair Hosie
03-07-2009, 04:41 PM
Both parents work and plunk the kids in daycare and they see everyone as simply looking out for number one


Yes I agree that and too many single parent kids brought up without father figures to keep the on the right track.We were much more resposible as parents and single parents were almost non existent or at least very few in number kids need a male role in their lives not constantly thrown from piller to post.The parents I am told nowadays will tell you to go fu$k yourself if you ask the kids to do homework I am told her in the uk by teacher friends we need all to stop where we are ask iof the kids are better of with ab ig house two cars rather than a mom or dad at home with a smaller home and one car or none.I was brought up very poor some days we did not eat.But my father just had to look at us or growl and we new better to take to task.Too many rap artists and tv or cinema bad language these days it's almost expected they say rap songs with anti police sentiments and violent content with constant swearing is not harmful but common sense says otherwise.Alistair

Carld
03-07-2009, 05:53 PM
My two boys were brought up to respect and expect respect and not to litter among other civilized things.

I have thought long and hard as I watched the loss of peoples respect for themselves and others. I am working on legislation to permit one killing of a deserving person per month by empty hand or weapon of choice and one good whipping per week for anyone that needs it.

I don't hold out much hope for passage of the bill.

TGTool
03-07-2009, 06:26 PM
I've tried to raise my kid to consider what others may think and how they feel and I believe he's developed pretty good values. I've demonstrated how to take care of things and fix them when they need it and he does pretty well with that now too. Knock on wood, he'll be a positive contribution to the universe.

OTOH, a few months back I was waiting in the car at the post office when a van with a bunch of college girls pulls up next to me. The driver gets out a burger, unwraps it, and proceeds to toss the lettuce and tomato out the window onto the ground. So, like a good citizen, I got out, walked over and accosted her about it. "Oh," she said, "the birds will just eat it." No, not before someone else pulls into this parking place and has to step in the cr*p you leave there for them. "Well, I didn't have any place to put it." Oh yes you did, you've got that perfectly good wrapper the burger came it to put your trash in. I told her that it's things like that just make America look like a third world country. I don't know what she may have taken away from the interchange, but she'd never admit to me that there was anything wrong with that kind of behavior.

My payoff, besides feeling like I'd gotten one lick in for considerate behavior toward others was a good beaver shot while we talked. Sometimes the universe really does reward you.

JCHannum
03-07-2009, 07:39 PM
She had a milling machine in the car?

BillH
03-07-2009, 08:55 PM
BillH- I think you touched on a good point.
I find kids that have some goal in life tend to be more driven than to just exist.
My Kids included. I try to find the thing that they will have a passion for. But it's hard. I'm from the Skaneateles NY area. I think you know where that is.
In general, we're out in the country, but the "bad" influences are still here.
My wife stays at home, intensionaly for these reasons.
It's a never ending battle. Hope I (and my kids) win!

Sid
I'll be damned, is the lake frozen over right now? In the summer time, there is no other place I'd rather be.

davidh
03-07-2009, 09:13 PM
It isn't just the youth that do that. The other day I was sitting in my pickup at Home Depot, and a nice SUV pulled into a parking spot in front of me, and couple of rows over. The window goes down, and a cigarette butt flies out the window. A minute later a nicely-dressed gal in her 50's gets out and goes into the store. With that sort of example it's no wonder the kids act like they do.
Jim

i see too many of those exact type and they pull into a handicap spot, or a no parking lane. i'd love to kick there skinny little a##es but, agaign, they may be "carrying". . . .

sid pileski
03-07-2009, 10:36 PM
Bill- I figured you'd know where I was talking about. I know you've made referances to Skaneateles befor.
Yes, the lake is fozen over, maybe the first mile. People out fishing in weeks past. It rained today, up into the 50's. Ice won't last long now.

Sid

J Tiers
03-07-2009, 10:37 PM
Don't forget about the other side of the coin..........

I distinctly remember being a kid, and the adults often were completely disrespectful.

If a kid said it, it was wrong.

They could tell a kid anything no matter how stupid, and expected the kid to take it and like it.

They could give a kid the stupidest explanation for anything, and expected it to be believed without question.

Rules were to be obeyed without question, even if they accomplished, in a specific case, exactly the opposite of what was intended.

Anything said by a kid after some pronouncement by an adult was "back talk", and was defined as bad. Remember, everything a kid said was wrong, after all.

To be quite honest, many adults seemed to me to be as dumb as a box of rocks, and I have had no reason to change my opinions about them since.

I identified how to get around the idiocies of those adults, but I sure was not going to "respect" them, despite what I arranged for them to see on the outside.

Maybe you are getting the backlash from the "obey or else" attitude.

Incidentally, a couple other points.....

1) it has been funny to see the "kids" I grew up with turn into the same sort of folks they used to complain about. I have tried to avoid that, mostly been successful, apparently.

2) As for the cigarette tossers, and SUV/BMW/Mercedes-Benz drivers....... Most of them think they are a lot more important than you, and if their tossed trash is in your yard or car, or they cut you off in traffic, tough..... you need to understand how important they are, the rules don't apply to them like they do to you, you lowlife "common person".......

IdahoJim
03-07-2009, 11:27 PM
you lowlife "common person".......

Ha ha...that'd be me...the lowlife common person.
Jim

TGTool
03-08-2009, 12:03 AM
Somewhat apropos, the Car Talk guys this morning on NPR read a letter someone had sent in. He thought the stupid people ought to wear signs saying "I'm Stupid". That way you wouldn't have to waste time listening to idiotic comments and stupidity. You could just say, "Oh, sorry. I didn't see your sign."

He had a whole string of examples where he thought someone should have been wearing one. He pulled into a gas station when he noticed he had a flat tire. The attendant said, "Ya got a flat tire?" No, I was just driving along and three of these damn tires swelled up.

HTRN
03-08-2009, 05:41 AM
Yup, kids these days aren't respectful, like in the good ole' days, hunh?:rolleyes:


The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behavior and dress.

Attributed to Socrates(469-399 BC)


HTRN

Davek0974
03-08-2009, 05:47 AM
Excellent thread, touches on a lot of sore nerves.

We have travelled a fair bit in the US, a couple of years ago we did the Vegas/ Grand Canyon/ Monument Valley/ Bryce Canyon/ Vegas trip and stopped at a lot of small towns en-route. One of the things that realy struck out was how much less street litter there was compared to over here, everywhere was just so clean, even the non-tourist towns we visited.

I have been sat in the car in a shared carpark here, home-store on one side and McD's on the other many a time. It is so common to see youngsters sitting in their blacked-out BMW's etc just open the door and chuck out whole bags of rubbish, even though there's a bin nearley every other car space, theres' no need for it.

I am 45 and can well remember school, talk in some classes and the teacher would have no worries about hurling a blackboard eraser at you! We called them Sir etc. Our children called the teachers by the first name - how does that instill any respect?

Technology has a massive part in the decline i believe. Mobile phones are a blight on society. Everyone expects to be connected to everyone 24/7 if you dare turn your phone off, you get called all the stupids under the sun! No-one respects others privacy and will call at any hour of the day or night, and at work, even though it is generally not allowed, they take calls or texts all day because they expect to be able to.

I still hold doors open for women, not many do, i also let them go first, it's how i was brought up. I dont push in line at the supermarket, i would never park in a disabled bay and as far as i'm aware i have never dropped litter.

From what i see of the younger generation now, they mostly act like you owe them something, be it respect, jobs, money whatever. Theydont see that they need to earn it, you just owe it to them.

Who's to blame? I dont know, possibly partly society itself and more likely those that make the rules we are bound by as a society. If its easy to carry a gun then people will, if its easy and cheap to get alcohol then kids are going to get drunk, if you cant stop people from doing such things because of something as ridiculous as the bill of human rights, then we have no power to correct the decline.

They have no fear of going to prison as most of the time they get let off, when they are inside its like a hotel, then they only do a quarter of the sentence and get let off again. Its a joke and we are now finally seeing the error of our ways, trouble is, no one cares.

Dave

Circlip
03-08-2009, 06:50 AM
Strange how times change, cos after dragging up our own to exhibit respect and consideration to others, how their values seem to be 180 degrees from ours with their kids?? I've often pointed out that our kids must have really hated their upbringing by the lack of control over the grandkids. Daughter was well known for having a purse that would have been a classic design for a duck's posterior yet freely allowed HER daughter to spend 60 on clothing for a bloody TEDDY BEAR, "Well, it was HER birthday money", this was 10 years ago. One of sons, whilst pontificating on the lack of parental control of others, sits totally oblivious to his own creating hell on earth in the background. When I point this out, I'm just a grumpy old sod, the values we worked to are even glossed over by the wife with regards to the grandkids behavior "You're just picking on them". Certainly am, you can turn down the 100Db sound level on on the Hi-Fi, but hell's teeth, you try the 1000Db generated by them whilst "Talking" to each other with a three foot spacing. Obviously the Walkmans, MP3 players and mobile phones have desensitised their lugholes to the point of stupidity. I'm famous in "Our" family for NOT having a mobile and the use that I point out that if the handbrake fails on the car, you can always use the phone as a Chock to stop the car from running away.

How do you alter it? It's obviuosly rocket science and much too complicated for me to understand, but all the experts that claim "Parental control" should take a long hard look in a mirror.

Regards Ian.

hardtail
03-08-2009, 08:28 AM
I think "reality tv" now theres an oxymoron, really shock tv is a big contributor and always pushing the envelope on what they can get away with, seems theres no line to cross anymore and it's accelerating decay and values.

Teen nephew went on vacation with his parents this summer, driving across Vancouver Island to Tofino, this is some of the most beatuiful country and forests on earth, all the folks heard was tic tic tic of texting in the backseat with his head down staring at the phone, his nose was outa joint when the texting was limited to an hour each day after while on vacation.......

Circlip
03-08-2009, 11:54 AM
But who bought him the phone and why did they let him take it with them? Try asking parents why they give their kids mobiles. Largest reply will be "For safety". How does that one work, what safety?? Paedofiles?? Muggers?? Bullies?? Isn't a mobile going to be the FIRST thing theyre going to target?

A phone in parent was recently asked why they had given a 3 1/2 year old a mobile? "It's in case his mum is injured and can't get to the phone"

Oh, she suffers from some form of disability??

"No, but she might fall and hurt herself and not be able to get to the phone"


Beam me up Scotty.

sid pileski
03-08-2009, 12:06 PM
After reading a few responces, I would like to say that I wasn't trying to be down on all kids, just these. I have High hopes for our kids, mine in particular. because thats what I charged with. It's a daily thing to keep them on what my wife and I think is the right path.

Sid

mochinist
03-08-2009, 12:35 PM
I grew up in a town that the snow birds(old people with giant vehicles) migrated to every winter, they are by far the rudest most disrespectful people I've ever seen...and I had a blast f##king with them.

nheng
03-08-2009, 01:17 PM
I know what you mean. Little old ladies can be the sweetest creatures on the planet or the most venomous little wretches. In all fairness, lots of things happen as your brain gets older.

Davek0974
03-08-2009, 01:37 PM
I think "reality tv" now theres an oxymoron, really shock tv is a big contributor and always pushing the envelope on what they can get away with, seems theres no line to cross anymore and it's accelerating decay and values.

Too true, i think all the media is at fault, the current "everyone must know everything right now" attitude is wrong, gangs etc can great gains from their wrongdoings being splashed across the papers and tv's of the country within minutes of it happening, if it was ignored or played down then the charisma will be lost. Not so long ago, popular music used to be about love, splitting up, getting back together, or even just music for the sake of music. Now we have people getting mega rich by singing(?) about gang life, drugs, guns, knives, death, murdering, torturing, prostitution and so on - why is this necessary or even accepted by the stations that play it or companies that produce it?


Teen nephew went on vacation with his parents this summer, driving across Vancouver Island to Tofino, this is some of the most beatuiful country and forests on earth, all the folks heard was tic tic tic of texting in the backseat with his head down staring at the phone, his nose was outa joint when the texting was limited to an hour each day after while on vacation.......

This is probably one of the saddest bits. They take no pleasure from their surroundings and therefore have no respect for it. I have a very scenic shortcut i take to work sometimes, through the Hertfordshire countryside. Many times i have stopped and parked up just to take in the view, I love seeing the sunrise over the fields and farms especially in the spring or summer, it just sets me up for the drudge of the working day. They just dont know or realise what they are missing by being stuck in front of a computer typing crap on FaceBook or some other pointless "Social networking" site, its a waste of life.

They even write in "text" now, cant even be bothered to get that right anymore.

saltmine
03-08-2009, 02:13 PM
I might as well vent, too. I'm an "old guy" too. Had my rebellious times when I was younger, but not to the degree kids today have taken it.

My biggest peeve is their loud music (??). Even young adults seem to believe that it's their "God given right" to play their music as loud as they want.

Nothing ruins a good night's sleep like one of these portable rap concerts rolling down my street at 2:00 AM, rattling the windows.

Fortunately, the City has an ordinance against loud music which carries a $500 fine and a mandatory court appearance. I'm assuming the court appearance is so they can tell the judge why they felt it was essential they play the music so loud, and drive around in residential neighborhoods.

Out of fear of retaliation, most people won't call the police. Since I worked in law enforcement, I do. You see, the ordinance has no meaning unless somebody calls in a complaint.

I really would like to be sitting in the courtroom when one of these "music lovers" explains to the judge why.

All things being equal, all of these idiots that drive around blasting their music(??) will be totally deaf if a matter of months anyway...And once that happens, no stereo in the world will be loud enough for them to hear.

Cell phones? Yeah, a convenience gone bad. I don't know if any of you heard about the commuter train crash in Chatsworth, California...The Metrolink train collided head-on into a freight train at 40mph. Killed a bunch of people.

The Engineer of the Metrolink train was "texting" his teenage "buddy" 22 seconds before the trains collided...Investigators believe he missed a red signal light while texting....

I see it all of the time. Men women, teenagers...yakking away on their phones. Driving down the road, shopping, and probably in the can.

Yesterday I passed a guy on the freeway, texting away. And I noticed an extension ladder lying in his lane ahead. Of course, he hit the ladder, and spun his car three times across two lanes of traffic...serves him right. I hope he didn't ruin the ladder.

Teenage_Machinist
03-08-2009, 02:40 PM
GAH! As somebody who has crazy and ambitious hopes to change teen culture to some more refined form called "young adult culture" - and crazy ambition for a lot of other things...

I do carry a cell phone, only since high school started. Dont use it often, when I do it is _VERY_ useful and has prevented me getting stranded in the rain at least once.


I really hate it when my oft-pathetic brethren ruin it for the rest of us.


Frankly though, I think you should be aware that often the problem is that people stop taking us seriously. Once that happens, the young men and maidens of a country become their own group of freakout naccistics. and "Gangsta's" -FAIL!

Music- I do not listen to much. I hate it when people hate on rock. I hate it when people hate on classical/ other old music. But heavy metal is a bit weird, much rap needs a letter "C" in front of it :rolleyes: :) and the rape stuff is disgusting,

Davek0974
03-08-2009, 02:42 PM
and probably in the can.

This goes on all the time at work. Its about the only place where they know you cant moan at them. If you pulled someone up about being in the toilet too much, they would likely waste no time in finding out about and quoting their human rights to use the toilet as much as they want.

Grinds my 'nads it does.

And as for mobile phones being good for emergencies! The only one time i could really have used my phone, there was no damn signal:mad: To give an idea of how much i use it, it's on pay-as-you-go and i use less than 10 per year!

I know people that use that much every day on the blasted things.

Mcruff
03-08-2009, 03:29 PM
I'm a pretty young guy myself. In fact, I'm only 20. I keep hearing the older folks here talking about kids "disrespecting adults". I grant people who are older than me a certain amount of respect based on age alone. I figure they've been around to see alot more crap than I have, and they deserve a little bit of respect for having to put up with it longer than I have.

But "adults" don't deserve any more respect than teens do. When I interact with people older or younger than I am, I base my interactions on what type of people they are. I've met people who were older than I am but who were infinitely less mature and less honest than I am. Do they deserve my respect just because they're older than I am? No. I think it's important to remember that everyone, no matter how old or young, are people and should be treated as such. Furthermore, you shouldn't expect respect unless you show some respect.

How true!!
I'm 45, and I was always taught if you give respect you will more than likely get it. Most parents talk down to there kids anymore and do not talk to them like they were an individual but more like they were property or a pet. Raising kids is hard, pick your battles, treat them appropriately and don't sweat the stupid crap. I always taught my kids to not embarass there name, themselves or there family, it seems to have worked pretty good.

Our whole society has turned into idiots over cell phones and texting, as for loud music well I like it loud once in a while when crusing on the interstate or something, driving thru a neighborhood or after dark is just inappropriate and rude.

saltmine
03-08-2009, 03:38 PM
To clarify a point, Teenage Machinist. I am a music lover, of all kinds of music, several members of my family are musicians professionally.

But, since I understand the mechanics of hearing, and how hearing can be lost, I don't make a habit of listening to it at high volume. That's just plain stupid. We're raising a generation of deaf & dumb people, though.

Yeah, I too have a cell phone. I carry it in the car whenever I have to go out of town. Most of my calls are for ordering a pizza, calling the police, or scheduling a haircut. I did use it the other day to report an erratic driver, on the interstate but, I pulled over, off the highway, to make the call.

Snow Birds? You must have lived in Arizona at one time. They're trying to enact a law right now that allows us to shoot them, like game birds.

Oh, and another thing......These boneheads who spend all of their time "texting" each other....They ought to learn how to spell, and type complete words.

mochinist
03-08-2009, 03:40 PM
To clarify a point, Teenage Machinist. I am a music lover, of all kinds of music, several members of my family are musicians professionally.

But, since I understand the mechanics of hearing, and how hearing can be lost, I don't make a habit of listening to it at high volume. That's just plain stupid. We're raising a generation of deaf & dumb people, though.

Yeah, I too have a cell phone. I carry it in the car whenever I have to go out of town. Most of my calls are for ordering a pizza, calling the police, or scheduling a haircut. I did use it the other day to report an erratic driver, on the interstate but, I pulled over, off the highway, to make the call.

Snow Birds? You must have lived in Arizona at one time. They're trying to enact a law right now that allows us to shoot them, like game birds.I grew up about an hour from you in Parker AZ

Highpower
03-08-2009, 05:25 PM
Great thread, with a lot of excellent observations. I have been plagued with many of these behaviors where I work for years, and have finally thrown in the towel. In my mind, there is no such thing as respect for your fellow man these days. And while I find that is generally true for the "younger" generation at large, it is by no means exclusive to any particular age group.

I work in an "open to the public" service department with the majority of "tech's" being in their 20's and early 30's. Half of these folks spend the entire day with a cell phone glued to their ear. (Some quite literally! - Can you say "Bluetooth"?) Wrench in one hand, and a phone in the other. Anyone here work with one hand tied behind their back all day? In between phone calls they have to be able to listen to their "music?" of course. Problem is they can't all agree on what to listen to, so we need to have FOUR different stereos going on four different stations at the same time! Then the battle of the volume controls begin. You have to be able to drown out the competion you know....

So how to you talk to your buddy over on the other side of the (large) shop with all this noise going on? Simple. Just SCREAM at the top of your lungs no matter how far away from them you are. The usual reply is "What???".... "Huh?".... "Whad'd you say?".... :confused:
Oh well, time to start texting each other, and swapping "interesting" photo's by cell phone. Oh, did I mention there is a "no personal phone calls during working hours" rule? Yeah, right.
Gee, all this texting has worn me out. Time for a smoke break....
Choice # 1: Locker room / bathroom stall.
Choice # 2: Lunch room.
Choice # 3: Stand by an exterior door. (On the inside of course - hey it's cold out there.)
Choice # 4: Just light up in your work area. " **** 'em."
Want to take a guess what the company smoking policy says? :rolleyes:

Basically, as long as they are making the company money, they can do just about anything they please. So even businesses are condoning this type of behavior these days in the name of the bottom line.

sansbury
03-08-2009, 05:56 PM
GAH! As somebody who has crazy and ambitious hopes to change teen culture to some more refined form called "young adult culture" - and crazy ambition for a lot of other things...

Don't feel bad, it means less competition for you in the future.


Frankly though, I think you should be aware that often the problem is that people stop taking us seriously. Once that happens, the young men and maidens of a country become their own group of freakout naccistics.

This won't change anytime soon. If you're on the fast track in life, there will always be people who don't take you seriously because age is the last thing they have on you. I became GM of a company in my mid-20s and would get it from guys twice my age, not because I wasn't listening to them, but because they couldn't deal with the fact that it was my signature on their paycheck and not vice-versa. At some point you lay it aside and move on.

Likewise, you will find some older guys who know you represent the future, and will try to help build you up. I had a few bosses like that over the years, and I'd walk on fire for them.

Teenage_Machinist
03-09-2009, 01:36 AM
On texting: I do not text. Well, I have sent maybe a dozen texts in almost two years mainly due to people's phones being off. While grammar destruction is not good, I will say that there is a short limit on characters in a text and they are not easy to type even with a querty keyboard. Hence, abreviations. I sometimes use internet slang in real world.



Taking seriously: One thing that gets me mad is the " 18 and you're in" mentality. You can hardly do anything until you are 18, and then almost everything.

Also people just do not get enough independence.



Quote:
The young people of today think of nothing but themselves. They have no reverence for parents or old age. They are impatient of all restraint. They talk as if they alone knew everything and what passes for wisdom with us is foolishness with them. As for girls, they are forward, immodest and unwomanly in speech, behavior and dress.

Attributed to Socrates(469-399 BC)


Many are the goods and many of the ills of the young. But I find this to be a cultural issue.

Circlip
03-09-2009, 08:16 AM
L's teeth TM, are you doing a "Norm" on us??

Became W/M of a fabrication firm and the first job was to have a "Works" radio fitted to the Tannoy system which instantly killed the cocophony of the different channels and loudness's of six welding bays. Second was alternate days of crap and real music over it, it allowed them to go only PARTIALLY mindless.

In another firm, my area was reasonably quiet with a "Mind enriching" channel on my radio, totally unobtrusive. That was untill one of the "Lads" would walk into my area so they could hear themselves on the mobile, turning the volume up used to REALLY pi** them off.

"Yer paid to WORK, not tell yer bird what colour knickers to have on tonight"

And yes, I really love kids, but I couldn't eat a whole one.

Regards Ian.

Norman Atkinson
03-09-2009, 10:19 AM
Oh, yes, Ian!

not Socrates but Cervantes in Don Quixote and little Sancho Panza speaks--

All men are as God made them,
and very often worse
--------------------------------------------------
We shall grow old apace and die
Before we know our liberty

Herrick- if you must

Norm

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 12:21 PM
Couple of observations based on past experiences... The attitude that all "youth" are of the same mold and are no good at all and contribute nothing is ageism, its a form of discrimination. I've delt with that, even in my 30s.

One shop I worked at, Webster Tool And Die, the ageism was to the point where they could not and still cannot retain workers in certain departments. I was hired originally to finish my sheetmetal training on the press-brakes, but the foreman there refused to allow me in his department... citing chapter and verse of all the abuses he's ever suffered or witnessed at the hands of "children." Furthermore he cited every single mistake "children" had ever made manufacturing-wise in the history of the company and finished his half-hour long lecture with "this is why I refuse to allow you to work in my department, regardless of what management tells me."

So I was moved to the assembly department. The lady who runs that department couldn't stand the fact that she was being used as a "babysitter" and more or less used me as a janitor for the department. I went to managment about that and they called her in and her reply was "I'll let him assemble product when he learns proper respect." The manager replied back to her "Give him a reason to respect you and he will." This absoulty horrifed her and she refused to sign my timecard for the week. She felt that my mere presense in her department was a form of disrespect from on high and that I was going cause "trouble" like everyone else had before me.

Lastly I was moved to the press-room department, and more or less the same thing happened... I left Webster Tool And Die with a very bad taste in my mouth, the sad thing is this pattern has repeated itself at several other companies.


***

Folks, not all of us "youngsters" are the problem, the problem is you! Part of it is misremembered youth, You remember being utterly perfect in all ways and you are shocked that no one else has mastered your high standards. Part of it is your extreme experience, You can't remember being 21 years old and not knowing how to grind a drill-point. And a big part of it is just plain lazyness. You would rather sit there and grouse about "all them stupid kids" than screen for the one or two in a crowd that actually have a goal and want to make something better for themselves.

I've been shut out of many oppertunities over the years because of that last attitude. :)

One of the biggest complainst I see is "damn kids and cellphones. So, make a cellphone policy and stick with it... Make the policy NO CELLPHONES ON THE SHOP FLOOR and enforce it. Make it known at hiring.

Shop I'm at no we have NO cellphones on the shop floor at all, the owner makes us keep them out in our car. He's very strict, since i've been here we've gone through six people who refused to give them up. Two "kids," and four "adults" who argued that they needed to be in constent contact with thier children "in case something happens."

I know alot of you don't want to be people-managers but you have to go out on the shop floor and actually look at the interactions there. You'll be suprised where most of the nonsense and abuse comes from... yes the "damn kids" will be a source but what about those "damn adults" that are too good to lower themselves to answering questions?

THERE IS A REASON SOME OF US DON'T KNOW WHAT A BASTARD FILE IS OR HOW TO GRIND A DRILL POINT, AND THAT IS BECAUSE NO ONE IS WILLING TO TRAIN US.

This trade requires an enormous amount of hands on and Q&A, and if you're of the opinion that you can't be bothered to pass on what you know to "damn kids" then GTFO out of my sight.

I'm going to close this long-winded discussion with this: You want the youth to repsect you and follow certain behavioral patterns it starts with you respecting THEM and remembering where YOU came from. :)

spkrman15
03-09-2009, 01:40 PM
1.

I used to do lanscapping. Cutting grass and picking up garbage. At one contract, at the airport, on a 30 degree day (Celcius) i was brooming the pavement to pick up the cigarette buts. As i passed a garage door, the 4-5 guys there said "Hot today!?" Yes i replied. Just as i passed them, they threw their cigarette buts on the ground behind me. I was fumming. At the end of the day, i complained to the owner of the company i worked for about them. He informed the supervising forman. Well, well. This was a SECURE area and they were not supposed to have that door open at all. I never saw another cigaratte but there for the rest of my time with that company. Another 2 years after the incident!!

2.

I coach a women's football team. At the end of a game last year, it started to rain. Well all but 2 of them ran to their car's, as i tried to pick up the garbage, cooler, chairs and my 2 girls. Aged 3 and 1 at the time. Go figure?

3.

I have noticed, that here it is mostly the younger people, I am 37, that hold open the door for me and say thank you when i do it for them.

4. At christmas, my buddy was at Best buy to get a Ninetendo Wii. They only had so many and you had to get in line. This woman came up and pushed him and took his spot. He did not get one. He was last in line!

Honestly , I have seen alot of positive things lately. We just have to look on the bright side!

Rob :)

digger_doug
03-09-2009, 01:56 PM
I was a member of the now defunct S.A.A. started by
Paul Poberezny, after he left the E.A.A. to his son Tom.

The annual gathering had maybe 200 people in a hangar
in Illinois. It was set up with tables and chairs for 400 people.

At the end of the dinner, slideshow, and speakers, Paul
walked up on stage, said "members, you know what to do"

Looked and sounded like a chinese fire drill.

Everyone, I mean everyone young and old chipped in.
We had the tables cleared, the trash bagged and taken
to the dumpster, the chairs folded and on the racks,
the tables stripped of their cloth's, folded and on their
racks as well.
Floor was swept and the place was ready to go....

....in 15 minutes flat.

It's not the age so much as the mentality, although
most members were retirement age.

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 02:23 PM
Properly motivated properly treated people can do some amazing things.

Yell and scream and mock at someone and then turn around and complain of "their" bad attitude... I wonder where the problem really is? :p

RancherBill
03-09-2009, 02:45 PM
Kids are bad, there is no doubt.

The reality is they learn it from their parents.

Just think of all those "I got a visit from the Bylaw/Code Department" threads or I had to deal with tech support or whatever. There is always something that is perceived as 'stupid' and must be responded to.

Mature responsible adults, like myself, don't do it at the 7-11 that often.

The mark of wisdom is knowing when you are doing it and learning. My 'stupid /childish' outbursts are down 48% now that I'm 56. At this rate I will be perfect by 94.

George Hodge
03-09-2009, 10:29 PM
Afew years ago,my father in law and I walked out of a restaurant and noticed a young lady changing a baby's diaper in her car next to mine.We climbed into our car just as she threw the diaper out the drivers window.I jumped out,grabbed the diaper and ran after her and caught her as she waited for traffic to clear.I told her she lost something and lifted the drivers windshield wiper and stuck the old diaper under the wiper arm.She was slightly mad and almost hit a car spinning her tires as she sped off.

Teenage_Machinist
03-09-2009, 10:58 PM
Afew years ago,my father in law and I walked out of a restaurant and noticed a young lady changing a baby's diaper in her car next to mine.We climbed into our car just as she threw the diaper out the drivers window.I jumped out,grabbed the diaper and ran after her and caught her as she waited for traffic to clear.I told her she lost something and lifted the drivers windshield wiper and stuck the old diaper under the wiper arm.She was slightly mad and almost hit a car spinning her tires as she sped off.


FAIL! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I think it is a bit of a cycle. Some parts of it are as old as civilization as your Elder Days comment from Socrates. Some parts are recent, I heard comment "We are living in exponential times" and have read in books about my generation's psychology that teenagers as we know them now have not existed before the Second World War. I suspect that after a while things are going to swing back.

Youth are always rebellious and never wise. That applies to me very much though I rebel against my generation's culture, and spend more time than many studying things. (Have heard that the Book of Proverbs from Abrahamic Bible was intended largely for the Hebrews' lads)

I think that one issue is as I said people not taking us seriously as they did in the Elder Days and to an even greater extent in Middle Days. Another is the problem of media which did not exist in the Elder Days. Now the discovery of love is fed with bawdiest television and the beauty of our maidens with clothes suited to prostitutes, and much of this from mass culture.

The final part I think to be demoralization on our part. Too few of us choose to be the judges of our selves and those who do risk rejection from those who are greater in number.

BillH
03-09-2009, 11:12 PM
FAIL! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:


I think it is a bit of a cycle. Some parts of it are as old as civilization as your Elder Days comment from Socrates. Some parts are recent, I heard comment "We are living in exponential times" and have read in books about my generation's psychology that teenagers as we know them now have not existed before the Second World War. I suspect that after a while things are going to swing back.

Youth are always rebellious and never wise. That applies to me very much though I rebel against my generation's culture, and spend more time than many studying things. (Have heard that the Book of Proverbs from Abrahamic Bible was intended largely for the Hebrews' lads)

I think that one issue is as I said people not taking us seriously as they did in the Elder Days and to an even greater extent in Middle Days. Another is the problem of media which did not exist in the Elder Days. Now the discovery of love is fed with bawdiest television and the beauty of our maidens with clothes suited to prostitutes, and much of this from mass culture.

The final part I think to be demoralization on our part. Too few of us choose to be the judges of our selves and those who do risk rejection from those who are greater in number.
Ok TM, either you are pulling some ones leg, or you are from England, or both.
You sound a lot like Norm.

Well I guess the real reason for everything is that young people simply don't know any better. The smart ones learn, the dumb ones don't with age.

mochinist
03-10-2009, 12:04 AM
Ok TM, either you are pulling some ones leg, or you are from England, or both.
You sound a lot like Norm.I've always thought he was kinda troll like.

Teenage_Machinist
03-10-2009, 01:08 AM
Wait... :confused:


No, I am not from England. Wish I was from across the sea. But lived in US for all my life as did my parents. I do not know what that means.


Troll? Definitely not and explanation of transgression would help/ "what we most detest in others...

Unclear whats wrong. / Lack of wisdom?

sansbury
03-10-2009, 01:30 AM
I think that one issue is as I said people not taking us seriously as they did in the Elder Days and to an even greater extent in Middle Days.

Go back less than 200 years and navy ships had crewmembers under 10. You don't have to go back 100 years to when kids that age in this country were still expected to haul their weight on the family farm or in a factory or shining shoes or something in the city. 16 wasn't a bad age to start getting erious about marriage, either.

Anyway, if I could send a message back in time to myself 16 years ago, it would say two things:

1. You'll never know if you don't ask her out.
2. For everything else, find a ladder and get over yourself.

RancherBill
03-10-2009, 02:04 AM
I think it is a bit of a cycle. Some parts of it are as old as civilization as your Elder Days comment from Socrates. Some parts are recent, I heard comment "We are living in exponential times" and have read in books about my generation's psychology that teenagers as we know them now have not existed before the Second World War. I suspect that after a while things are going to swing back. [QUOTE]

IMHO, this is just a factoid excuse. Teenagers today have no idea how to adjust a carburetor or harness a horse. Knowledge is relative to the time in which you live. The youth always know the new stuff.


[QUOTE=Teenage_Machinist]The final part I think to be demoralization on our part. Too few of us choose to be the judges of our selves and those who do risk rejection from those who are greater in number.

Hey can you get some original material. The hippies, beatnicks, and the original post war biker gangs all plagiarized this rhetoric from even more generations past.

Questioning, uncertainty and over confidence ar the halmmark of the stage of life you are in.

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 04:52 AM
Mochinist -
Kinda Troll like????

A troll in real sense of the world is a rather amusing sort of ogre out of Norway. If you have a sense of education it is Edvard Grieg, the Norwegian composer and his Wedding Day in Trollhaugen. Maybe, your knowledge of music is as minimal as your knowledge of the English Language.

There is a Rule. If you throw it, someone will throw it back. The Law of Equal forces!!!!!

Norm

speedy
03-10-2009, 05:23 AM
I know what you mean. Little old ladies can be the sweetest creatures on the planet or the most venomous little wretches.

That would be true for 99% of females of all ages. God love em!:D

Circlip
03-10-2009, 07:29 AM
Some sort of transatlantic time delay compensation Norm?? Didn't realise the delay was in days rather than seconds but at least we seem to have converted at least one American teenager to have a thought process.

Regards Ian

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 08:04 AM
Morning Ian,
There is an old saying about miracles and the belief that the come from the East. I suppose that in this context , we are East.

I'm in the midst of trying to sort out this 'trolling thing'. It does suggest that some anal deafness( which emanates from lower areas) actually refers to 'Trawling' and not 'Trolling'. I have always believed that the dictionary in the Mayflower got soggy and was therefore quite difficult to read.

As you know, I am a bit of a maths buff. Having left school at the tender age of age of 14- in wartorn Britain, there was room to fill empty vessels.
So I studied how to assess wealth and ability by collating information.
One does have to be able do 'double entry book keeping' but also to place values. It's a trick beloved of accountants and--- as it is nearing the end of the Financial Year, Income Tax inspectors. One works with a blank sheet of paper and makes a list from information given or obtained and puts values to the items. It's all rather fun.

So in an idle moment, I tried to help a bloke out here. He wouldn't take a blind bit of notice and I said to myself- 'This guy is a lecturer of sorts and logically, teaching a younger generation' So I checked his maths.
He had gone from a peripheral speed to grind tools from 8" nominal down to a slower 7" diameter. Only he knows why he went from a classical speed in what could be effective to a slower one. Only he and the Good Lord knows why.
Then for a party piece, he goes off and talks about colour of grit as being somehow important.

I'm hoping for 'a senior moment' after things like this.

Cheers

Norm

Circlip
03-10-2009, 08:07 AM
:rolleyes: :eek: :cool: :D

derekm
03-10-2009, 08:15 AM
Morning Ian,
There is an old saying about miracles and the belief that the come from the East. I suppose that in this context , we are East.

I'm in the midst of trying to sort out this 'trolling thing'. It does suggest that some anal deafness( which emanates from lower areas) actually refers to 'Trawling' and not 'Trolling'. I have always believed that the dictionary in the Mayflower got soggy and was therefore quite difficult to read.

As you know, I am a bit of a maths buff. Having left school at the tender age of age of 14- in wartorn Britain, there was room to fill empty vessels.
So I studied how to assess wealth and ability by collating information.
One does have to be able do 'double entry book keeping' but also to place values. It's a trick beloved of accountants and--- as it is nearing the end of the Financial Year, Income Tax inspectors. One works with a blank sheet of paper and makes a list from information given or obtained and puts values to the items. It's all rather fun.

So in an idle moment, I tried to help a bloke out here. He wouldn't take a blind bit of notice and I said to myself- 'This guy is a lecturer of sorts and logically, teaching a younger generation' So I checked his maths.
He had gone from a peripheral speed to grind tools from 8" nominal down to a slower 7" diameter. Only he knows why he went from a classical speed in what could be effective to a slower one. Only he and the Good Lord knows why.
Then for a party piece, he goes off and talks about colour of grit as being somehow important.

I'm hoping for 'a senior moment' after things like this.

Cheers

Norm

Checking someones maths thats asking for trouble....
SA long time ago in far off galaxy, I checked my companies next year's annual target, which we were all supposed to working gung ho for Ra -Ra -Ra -Ra (it was a U.S. company after all :) ).

Allowing for the time it takes to get new business , train, deploy and get the money back in, it worked out it would take a quadrupling the companies work force to meet it.

I then explained this to the General manager showing the detailed business model I used.:rolleyes:

I got shown the door and the boot, but only a few months before the doors shut forever.

Well at least I was proved right..

Derek

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 08:38 AM
Derek,
It's a sad reflection on things to read your comments.
Clearly, you were right.


( Isn't this retirement thing, rather nice. Just think, you have the greatest gift- you are a survivor! Chuck snowballs at the moon, Stick two fingers up any old orifice. Until the Good Lord decrees, you are bomb proof. )

I was doing a long distance math. Out of my lot of 1944( born 1930), only 3 of us are left. Balls to Mr Banglestein- Dirty old Sod

Norm

mochinist
03-10-2009, 09:23 AM
Mochinist -
Kinda Troll like????

A troll in real sense of the world is a rather amusing sort of ogre out of Norway. If you have a sense of education it is Edvard Grieg, the Norwegian composer and his Wedding Day in Trollhaugen. Maybe, your knowledge of music is as minimal as your knowledge of the English Language.

There is a Rule. If you throw it, someone will throw it back. The Law of Equal forces!!!!!

Normlol ramble on some more, I rarely read what you say anyways and I stick by what I said. Maybe he is really a teenager and maybe I am full of sh1t, but it is just my opinion.

Circlip
03-10-2009, 09:29 AM
Rightly said Mochinist. Couldn't agree more.

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 09:29 AM
Mochinist

Toujours la politesse

Norm

JCHannum
03-10-2009, 11:41 AM
A Troll in literature is different than a troll on the internet. The original lived under a bridge and ate goats.

An internet Troll trolls in the sense of trolling, where bait is dragged in front of a fish in hopes it will bite. I won't get into the derivation of the second term, but the original Troll is the one who was played for a sucker.

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 01:28 PM
JC,
You mean Bill- ee- Goad- gruff?

It's the classical education.

Norm

JCHannum
03-10-2009, 01:41 PM
That's him Norm. A classical education will out.

derekm
03-10-2009, 01:46 PM
In Norway/sweden the Troll is the gremlin in the house... If something goes wrong or missing its the "Troll did it".
In norway they even have a mountain range called the "The home of the Trolls" Trollheimen, which I visited a long time ago.

all this American bridges and goats stuff is a pale echo of the original culture

JCHannum
03-10-2009, 02:02 PM
Er, The Three Billy Goats Gruff is a Norwegian folk tale.

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 02:12 PM
And JC, it was orchestrated for bass saxophone and contrabass clarinet by Paul Harvey! He also scored La Forza Destino for my Forza Destino to play!

Sorry, but I also deliberately 'scored'

Norm

JCHannum
03-10-2009, 02:27 PM
And JC, it was orchestrated for bass saxophone and contrabass clarinet by Paul Harvey!
Norm

And, that's.............the rest of the story.

May he rest in peace.

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 02:46 PM
That Force of Destiny hasn't quite caught up with Paul who was Head of Music at Kneller Hall.

derekm
03-10-2009, 02:48 PM
Er, The Three Billy Goats Gruff is a Norwegian folk tale.
yes but only one of the many to do with Trolls

BillH
03-10-2009, 03:05 PM
There is a very good reason why Shakespeare makes no sense to me, and any references to classical mythology goes right over my head. As a kid growing up, I was gifted with the ability to recognize completely worthless crap and refused to waste my time and energy learning it.

derekm
03-10-2009, 03:14 PM
There is a very good reason why Shakespeare makes no sense to me, and any references to classical mythology goes right over my head. As a kid growing up, I was gifted with the ability to recognize completely worthless crap and refused to waste my time and energy learning it.
A lot of wintry discontent in this unstopped breach or is it just slings and arrows of outrage? And so with my pound of flesh I'm off.

(With apologies to Richard III, Henry V, Shylock and Hamlet)

Liger Zero
03-10-2009, 03:23 PM
I have to agree, Shakespear and classical lit are nice luxuries to learn after you get your life skills... like basic math, defensive driving and manners. Once we knock those into your head and you prove you can implement them THEN maybe you can take a couple of lit classes.


The absolute worst boss period the end EVER was the fellow who had a masters in Classical Lit... knew nothing about business, people-management or injection molding but hey at least the company could brag about Mr. Degree-From-Big-School person.

Heater band on the machine burned out? Quote Catcher In The Rye. Water leak on press #4? Quote Shakespeare. Someone get injured by an exacto-knife? Quote some obscure French author and fire 'em.

Attitude? Me? :D If you excuse me I'm off to pay your salary by making parts to ship, punk. :p

Norman Atkinson
03-10-2009, 04:25 PM
Off to pay for me? How arrogant can you be? How little you know.

I left school at 14 after an education that was beggared by the loss of teachers over France and Germany- and by beaten men coming home from the beaches of Dunkirk. No classics, no education for me.

It's a joke- against my generation. It's a castigation of just how little that you know about the hardships of Britain in the 1930's and the 1940's.

You, sir, pay for me? Pay for me? Get real

Liger Zero
03-10-2009, 04:40 PM
Off to pay for me? How arrogant can you be? How little you know.

I left school at 14 after an education that was beggared by the loss of teachers over France and Germany- and by beaten men coming home from the beaches of Dunkirk. No classics, no education for me.

It's a joke- against my generation. It's a castigation of just how little that you know about the hardships of Britain in the 1930's and the 1940's.

You, sir, pay for me? Pay for me? Get real


Not you, the lit-school asshole. :D You can spend buckets of money on an education and learn nothing and contribute nothing. Why is someone with what amounts to an art degree running a manufacturing concern while more technical-minded and people-oriented folks are being passed over?

Let me explain it a different way: you sit there in a meeting and we explain to you that a machine is broken, you can't wave away the problem with a quote from the Bard and expect us to magically make quota.

That's where my remark about going off to pay "your" (his) salary comes from.

I have no use for that sort of person. Either show an understanding of what you are managing or GTFO of my way.

If I'm still not clear PM me. :)

sansbury
03-10-2009, 04:57 PM
I have no use for that sort of person. Either show an understanding of what you are managing or GTFO of my way.

Just out of curiosity, do you never write here about the good or even OK bosses/companies you worked for, or are they all bumbling or malicious, every last one of them?

Liger Zero
03-10-2009, 05:09 PM
Just out of curiosity, do you never write here about the good or even OK bosses/companies you worked for, or are they all bumbling or malicious, every last one of them?

I have quite a few good stories to relate, many many positive work experiences.

Maybe I should start a thread in which we regale each other with "Awesome Work Experiences" and "Wonderful Bosses."

A good example would be the guy who took me under his wing and taught me basic press-brake operation. He didn't have to do that, he did it because he wanted to not because he had to.

Smart fellow, old old school Conservative Christian fellow... true expert in every sense of the word. He could take a part, measure it, and program the machine without using a calculator, chart or scratch-pad.

I later learned the "right" way to lay out blanks using Real Maths and all that but you know what? His tricks and shortcuts get me a shippable part in less time than the "right" way. :)

Or would you rather hear about the guy who spotted me sweeping the parking lot at one job and asked me to come over to his area and run a turret lathe while he went to a meeting... Guy stood up to some very senior folks and got me transferred to his department. If it wasn't for him I wouldn't have discovered the joy of turning. :)


I got more, PM me if you wanna hear them.

The key to earning my respect is treat me like a person and answer my questions. Categorize me, dismiss me as "rubbish" like everyone else before me, demand that I "show proper respect to someone of your station" and you'll find I'm not a very likable fellow with a very very bad attitude. ;)

derekm
03-10-2009, 05:58 PM
Actually the plays of Shakespeare are used to teach leadership in Industry and the U.S. Army . Henry V and Richard III are used to illustrate chrisamatic leadership and dictatorial rule.

After all "Band of Brothers" is not a title for Tv invented by Speilberg but a quote

"We few, we happy few, we band of brothers"

Picture a worn out, diseased hopelessly, outnumbered army. Their leader, when someone talks about needing more men, addresses his men thus:

What's he that wishes so?
My cousin Westmoreland? No, my fair cousin:
If we are mark'd to die, we are enow
To do our country loss; and if to live,
The fewer men, the greater share of honour.
God's will! I pray thee, wish not one man more.
By Jove, I am not covetous for gold,
Nor care I who doth feed upon my cost;
It yearns me not if men my garments wear;
Such outward things dwell not in my desires:
But if it be a sin to covet honour,
I am the most offending soul alive.
No, faith, my coz, wish not a man from England:
God's peace! I would not lose so great an honour
As one man more, methinks, would share from me
For the best hope I have. O, do not wish one more!
Rather proclaim it, Westmoreland, through my host,
That he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man's company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
This day is called the feast of Crispian:
He that outlives this day, and comes safe home,
Will stand a tip-toe when the day is named,
And rouse him at the name of Crispian.
He that shall live this day, and see old age,
Will yearly on the vigil feast his neighbours,
And say 'To-morrow is Saint Crispian:'
Then will he strip his sleeve and show his scars.
And say 'These wounds I had on Crispin's day.'
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot,
But he'll remember with advantages
What feats he did that day: then shall our names.
Familiar in his mouth as household words
Harry the king, Bedford and Exeter,
Warwick and Talbot, Salisbury and Gloucester,
Be in their flowing cups freshly remember'd.
This story shall the good man teach his son;
And Crispin Crispian shall ne'er go by,
From this day to the ending of the world,
But we in it shall be remember'd;
We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother; be he ne'er so vile,
This day shall gentle his condition:
And gentlemen in England now a-bed
Shall think themselves accursed they were not here,
And hold their manhoods cheap whiles any speaks
That fought with us upon Saint Crispin's day.

And if you are not moved by this speech then ....

Alistair Hosie
03-10-2009, 06:01 PM
But "adults" don't deserve any more respect than teens do

I agree with fastrack when he said the above but we should all respect each other young and old it's nice when both show respect of each other.Alistair

Scishopguy
03-10-2009, 06:15 PM
Couple of observations based on past experiences... The attitude that all "youth" are of the same mold and are no good at all and contribute nothing is ageism, its a form of discrimination. I've delt with that, even in my 30s.

***

Folks, not all of us "youngsters" are the problem, the problem is you! Part of it is misremembered youth, You remember being utterly perfect in all ways and you are shocked that no one else has mastered your high standards. Part of it is your extreme experience, You can't remember being 21 years old and not knowing how to grind a drill-point. And a big part of it is just plain lazyness. You would rather sit there and grouse about "all them stupid kids" than screen for the one or two in a crowd that actually have a goal and want to make something better for themselves.

I've been shut out of many oppertunities over the years because of that last attitude. :)


I know alot of you don't want to be people-managers but you have to go out on the shop floor and actually look at the interactions there. You'll be suprised where most of the nonsense and abuse comes from... yes the "damn kids" will be a source but what about those "damn adults" that are too good to lower themselves to answering questions?

THERE IS A REASON SOME OF US DON'T KNOW WHAT A BASTARD FILE IS OR HOW TO GRIND A DRILL POINT, AND THAT IS BECAUSE NO ONE IS WILLING TO TRAIN US.

This trade requires an enormous amount of hands on and Q&A, and if you're of the opinion that you can't be bothered to pass on what you know to "damn kids" then GTFO out of my sight.

I'm going to close this long-winded discussion with this: You want the youth to repsect you and follow certain behavioral patterns it starts with you respecting THEM and remembering where YOU came from. :)

There are a lot of good points here that bring back memories from when I was just learning the trade and even when I was more skilled, later on. As to the lack of teaching that went on I can honestly say that some of the poorest at this were the individuals who barely knew what they were doing as supervisors and were afraid to be showed up by some kid. One actually explained it to me saying that I was in competition for raise money and he wasn't going to help me get ahead of him. I was fortunate, however, in that there were a few old guys that were sharp and had enough self confidence to go beyond the petty crap. The most joyus (for lack of a better description) experiences of my career were when I was paired with an old guy who was friendly and open to a two way dialogue about the project we worked on. I owe a great debt to some fine old guys that took the time to show me how things worked and in some cases didn't work. ;)

Some of the finest and most rewarding times I ever had were working for a man who was proclaimed by many as a hateful old hard ass. Well, it turned out that he wanted things done to his satisfaction and wanted things done a certain way for good reason. He was responsable for the work and for the care and use of the shop. Once I accepted this and did as he asked, we got along good and he even opened up and took ideas and suggestions from me seriously. We would sit down and brainstorm about how to do things and together we solved some interesting problems. This partnership lasted until he died.

Good post, well stated, Liger Zero!

JCHannum
03-10-2009, 09:26 PM
I cannot agree with you. For myself, I had no one to show me what a bastard file was or how to point a drill. Rather than whine about the fact, I took it upon myself to find out on my own. I suspect more than a few of us got to where we are by the same means.

A shallow education produces shallow people. I believe this brings us back to the start of the discussion.

Mcgyver
03-10-2009, 09:55 PM
right on JC.

it is so tiresome the constant criticism of things unknown. Lawyers, MBA's and now literates suffer the endless ire and wrath from our forums. I know lots of the above (well not so many literates) and non of them are bad people....and of course we know what the opposite of a literate is, right? :D

Rather than chastising things one knows little about, why not figure out whats going on there; maybe something can learned. Does it make sense that these vocations that require smarts and schooling and effort can be cast aside at the waive of an ignorant hand? My uncle's a university professor in Philosophy - about as far away from my vocational interest as can be. However you may not have met a more engaging interesting person to have conversation with - if you dismissed philosophy as a pile of crap you'd never get the opportunity. JC is right, shallowness tends to pervade.

Literary scholars for example. The great works of all time (and i don't mean stephen king) are great because of the insight they give to human interaction/condition. Might not an excellent literary background expand ones knowledge of people and how to deal with them? isn;t that what an education is - benefiting from the writing and teachings of others so we don't have to muddle through everything first hand?

Liger, if your boss was an A hole its because he was an A hole; not because he had a literary background. I bet there's not a group of MBA's, lawyers or literary types sitting around dumping on machinists :D

BillH
03-10-2009, 10:48 PM
right on JC.

it is so tiresome the constant criticism of things unknown. Lawyers, MBA's and now literates suffer the endless ire and wrath from our forums. I know lots of the above (well not so many literates) and non of them are bad people....and of course we know what the opposite of a literate is, right? :D

Rather than chastising things one knows little about, why not figure out whats going on there; maybe something can learned. Does it make sense that these vocations that require smarts and schooling and effort can be cast aside at the waive of an ignorant hand? My uncle's a university professor in Philosophy - about as far away from my vocational interest as can be. However you may not have met a more engaging interesting person to have conversation with - if you dismissed philosophy as a pile of crap you'd never get the opportunity. JC is right, shallowness tends to pervade.

Literary scholars for example. The great works of all time (and i don't mean stephen king) are great because of the insight they give to human interaction/condition. Might not an excellent literary background expand ones knowledge of people and how to deal with them? isn;t that what an education is - benefiting from the writing and teachings of others so we don't have to muddle through everything first hand?

Liger, if your boss was an A hole its because he was an A hole; not because he had a literary background. I bet there's not a group of MBA's, lawyers or literary types sitting around dumping on machinists :D

I was taught that language is an ever evolving and changing thing. In this day and age, the literates you talk fondly of, are really the illiterates if the majority of the population listens to them and can only scratch their head as to what they are actually saying...
What ever floats your boat I guess. Who is smarter? The one who can quote Shakespeare or the one that can fly an ILS on one engine down to minimums with smoke filling the inside of the cockpit? It is all perspective, neither choice is correct for everyone.
I can tell you this though, the one that can fly the ILS down to mins is a hell of a lot more useful.

Norman Atkinson
03-11-2009, 05:53 AM
I was going back 60 years. An aircraft landing every minute.
British and American crates left over as survivors from a war that took one in three aircraft and their courageous crews.

They had a job to do- they would fill that wall with their British and American dead. Mine would go into the Hell- without anything more than than a flare pistol.

Tell me your story!

I was out in Arctic Norway. The temperatures were minus 32C or -32F and there wasn't a troll in sight. We were out with the 'blood wagons' and the boss man had survived being a prisoner in Dachau concentration camp.
The Top man was a pilot- he was Riiser Larsen the Arctic and Antarctic explorer.

Tell me a story- tell me the story of looking into dead mens burnt eyes with every long bone broken in their young bodies.

I'm the 'classisist' who was an eye witness. My history book is the one that I wrote.

Tell me YOUR story- or shut up.

Norman

Circlip
03-11-2009, 08:31 AM
It's a reduced advantage for the guy that lands ILS with a smoke filled cockpit only if you're a passenger on the plane?

Norman Atkinson
03-11-2009, 08:59 AM
Courage mon brave! Once Bill has mended his circuit board or got others to tell him how to do it--- all will be well?

Have no fear------Snudge is here! We'll park on a cloud and simply wait for Bill.

OOPS

Norm

Circlip
03-11-2009, 09:09 AM
Bon jour mon ami, ceva bien??

mochinist
03-11-2009, 09:34 AM
I was going back 60 years. An aircraft landing every minute.
British and American crates left over as survivors from a war that took one in three aircraft and their courageous crews.

They had a job to do- they would fill that wall with their British and American dead. Mine would go into the Hell- without anything more than than a flare pistol.

Tell me your story!

I was out in Arctic Norway. The temperatures were minus 32C or -32F and there wasn't a troll in sight. We were out with the 'blood wagons' and the boss man had survived being a prisoner in Dachau concentration camp.
The Top man was a pilot- he was Riiser Larsen the Arctic and Antarctic explorer.

Tell me a story- tell me the story of looking into dead mens burnt eyes with every long bone broken in their young bodies.

I'm the 'classisist' who was an eye witness. My history book is the one that I wrote.

Tell me YOUR story- or shut up.

NormanWGAS/WGAF

Sometimes I wish the ignore feature here, worked when you weren't logged in.

Norman Atkinson
03-11-2009, 09:35 AM
Regular, mon brave et tu?

Ca va bien!

And - a confession. I have a date with a mountain.
TGV to Bourg St Maurice- premier classe- bien sur.

Et comment vous dites- mon 'Broom cupboard'?

Tous le monde- ou est le papier? Marchons, marchons et la.

(Not bad for a kid out of the back streets, eh?)

Ce Vrai

Norm

Liger Zero
03-11-2009, 11:58 AM
I cannot agree with you. For myself, I had no one to show me what a bastard file was or how to point a drill. Rather than whine about the fact, I took it upon myself to find out on my own. I suspect more than a few of us got to where we are by the same means.

...except you can't learn on the equipment if you don't have access to it and home shop equipment may not be feasible for everyone.

This trade requires a certain amount of Q&A and hands-on instruction, One of the primary reasons the number of skilled machinists entering the trade is declining is because of the lack people willing to train new workers.

Doncha ya know that kid is going to replace you utterly after 48 hours of instruction? And what if he makes scrap? It could make you look bad. Can't be assed to lower yourself that far. And the questions, oh the QUESTIONS, quit asking me **** boy, that's just backtalk.

Anyone claiming to be a self-taught master-machinist is at a very minimum fooling only himself. No man becomes a master of a complex trade like this without instruction and the support of his peers.

digger_doug
03-11-2009, 12:15 PM
Where's sock puppet when you need him/her/it ?

This is getting out of hand

sansbury
03-11-2009, 02:43 PM
I can tell you this though, the one that can fly the ILS down to mins is a hell of a lot more useful.

How long before coupled approaches become the law on big iron? As it is I suspect I'm among the last generation of fliers who learned on steam gauges. Manual flying is going to go the way of manual machining.

BillH
03-11-2009, 04:52 PM
Courage mon brave! Once Bill has mended his circuit board or got others to tell him how to do it--- all will be well?

Have no fear------Snudge is here! We'll park on a cloud and simply wait for Bill.

OOPS

Norm
Sorry guys, I work 6 days a week, flying a stupid airplane 6 hours a day. Believe me, I'd rather be in the shop trying to fix that damn speed control. Have I missed a few jabs at myself? I don't care anymore.

BillH
03-11-2009, 04:53 PM
How long before coupled approaches become the law on big iron? As it is I suspect I'm among the last generation of fliers who learned on steam gauges. Manual flying is going to go the way of manual machining.
Already IS the norm. Airline pilots are system monitors.

Teenage_Machinist
03-11-2009, 10:20 PM
That went far afield...


Yes I am a teen. I am in high school. I started machining , something like 2 and a half years was it? I learned it at the Maker Fair, and then bought a Chinese lathe and started making things and fixing things.

I have not had any general teacher, though a machinist friend of my dad has introduced me to machining. I learned most of what I know first from books and second from you bless your souls. :) :cool:


I am not trying to be a troll in the sense of a person who intentionally acts like an a-hole on the internet.


As to immaturity of teenagers, I say you definitely are right about people becoming adults at an early age. I do not seek for that, but I do think that the sequence should be : Infant, young child, child (grammer school), old child/young teenager (middle school) and then you pretty much start becoming an adult, gradually, as opposed to today's weird buffer period.

BillH
03-11-2009, 11:47 PM
That went far afield...


Yes I am a teen. I am in high school. I started machining , something like 2 and a half years was it? I learned it at the Maker Fair, and then bought a Chinese lathe and started making things and fixing things.

I have not had any general teacher, though a machinist friend of my dad has introduced me to machining. I learned most of what I know first from books and second from you bless your souls. :) :cool:


I am not trying to be a troll in the sense of a person who intentionally acts like an a-hole on the internet.


As to immaturity of teenagers, I say you definitely are right about people becoming adults at an early age. I do not seek for that, but I do think that the sequence should be : Infant, young child, child (grammer school), old child/young teenager (middle school) and then you pretty much start becoming an adult, gradually, as opposed to today's weird buffer period.
Everyone is different. I see it in the airplane. Some people who have never flown an airplane before, on the very first flight, fly it like they have 500 hours under their belt. Others... More fun than Tower Of Terror...
Listen, the single biggest factor to a child's behavior is their parents. My parents are/were very conservative, well geez.. So am I. They are/were anti social... Well DAMN IT, so am I, even though I hate being so. Ones childhood shapes the person for the rest of their life, I hope every kid has a good childhood.

J Tiers
03-12-2009, 01:00 AM
I said somewhere up this stack of obnoxious posts that if you want respect from ANYONE, show them some.

If you want "street respect", all you need is a bad attitude, and a gun, or a 6 foot 7 300 lb solid muscle body, or both.

One type of respect lasts, the other lasts as long as you are in view. Then the planning starts.

Which type you want?

If you treat kids like dirt, you'll get it back.

Don't be surprised if you get a bunch of mouth anyway, because a lot of other A-holes have already been there and proved that you are just another one...... it really IS up to you to prove you are not one, sometimes.

Kids are not BORN as jerks...... they learn it. Wanna take bets on who they learn it FROM?

Yep, you, or someone who looks generally like you.

IdahoJim
03-12-2009, 01:19 PM
The way I look at this is everyone absolutely desrves courtesy, but NOT respect. Respect is EARNED. The reason older people deserve respect is because they've already been through many years of life....fighting the battles, working their jobs, raising their kids, and all the effort that entails. Young people, by the very fact they're young, have done little to earn respect. Mostly they have been fed, housed, clothed, and educated by others, without having to lift a finger. That does not automatically deserve respect from anybody....but they do deserve courtesy. In most cases, respect is a one-on-one item....how can you respect somebody, without knowing them, and their history?
Jim

mlucek
03-12-2009, 09:15 PM
Back on topic. At 47, I too have seen adults (if you can call them that) and kids throw thrash everywhere.

One lady (not in any sense of the word) opened her car door while exiting a fast food place and dumped the bag/wrappers on the ground. Others throwing wrappers out of the window.

People throwing their cig butts out the window, emptying the whole ashtray out the window. It's really disgusting walking somewhere and seeing a big pile of butts/ashes on the ground next to a parking space. Especially when there's trash cans nearby.

I was at a local Taco Bell last year. There was a family eating nearby (2 adults, 2 kids). The young girl (kid) went to the counter to get something and proceeded to knock the napkins/sauces/forks all over the floor and walked away back to her parents. I then loudly asked, "Are you going to clean/pick that up ?" I was pretty much ignored. But, a few minutes later one of the family (don't remember if it was the kid or one of the parents) did come over and pick up the stuff that was all over the floor. Chalk one up for a guilt trip to get someone to pick up after their kids/themselves.

The whole world is NOT your trash can. :mad:

Mike

gmatov
03-13-2009, 03:27 AM
Kids are kids and adults are adults. A*sholes are as*holes, no matter their age.

There are good kids. There are bad adults. Kids have been downgraded for 3500 years, and probably even longer. Socrates bitched about teens, or, mebbe, in those years, 9 year olds, as life was short.

They showed NO respect to their elders. Some kids today show no respect. Others are respectful. Some supposed adults show no respect to anybody, old or young.

Kids who babysat for my kids 35 years ago still call me Mr. . They're about 50 now. We're close enough in age for them to call me by name but they can't. It is ingrained.

Go to the garage and the mech's kids, 12, 14, 16, call me by name. Their dads do so that is all they know me by. Doesn't bother me. They are not disrespectful. I help them with fasteners for their motorbikes and their dads are thankful and so are they. "Gee, thanks, George, we don't know anything about metric fasteners and we are glad you could bring us a couple 5 mm screws that we would have gone to HD and asked some dork if he could help us and HE knows even less than WE do."

I am egotistic enough to think that I have always been smarter, IN MY FIELD, than my bosses were. If I were not a better mechanic than my boss was, I would not have kept my job or been promoted. BOSSES are paper pushers.

They keep the work flowing. They do not know how to do the work. The worst bosses I have ever had were former mechanics."When I was machining, I could have done that job better."

When YOU were a machinist, if you could have done the job better/quicker, why don't you suggest to me HOW to do the job better/quicker?

I would not have said "You're a BOSS, now. I'm doing the work."

I looked over the Superintendent's shoulder one night to shake my head at the boss's explanation of why I could not make a 12 foot 1 inch thick shipping cover, 1/8 plate except for the rim, on a 14 foot VBM because it vibrated, chattered like hell. He BS'd the BOSS into accepting his explanation. He made no sense whatsoever to me. I had to experiment with grinds of forged tools to finally get the damned thing done.

Bosses don't have to be better than you to have the job. They have to know how to manage the paperwork and get the work done by you without pissing you off enough to go on strike.

They hire bosses off the street, with a brand new Diploma. YOU will have to prove enough experience to show that you can produce without breaking a machine.

Youngsters, here, should learn to accept that. It is all they will ever know. Really, it is all we have ever known. Very few, unless they kiss some serious ass, move into supervision.

People in my former company quit 14 buck jobs 30 years ago to take 10 buck BOSS jobs in small shops. They wanted to be BOSS so much they would work for less, just so they could brag that they were BOSSES.

I gotta go on another track, here. I started in Westinghouse 45 or so years ago. My boss was just that, a Boss. He was a Winder. He wound coils and insulated them. He became a boss in a fitting aisle. NOT as you might think, put this to this and bolt it up.

Pick up 6, 7, 8 15 ton generators and a big ass AC motor and align them all and bolt them all down, to within a thou.,on a base to go into a strip shovel.

23 at the time, pretty wise mechanically, trained as a Diesel mech, and hired, lead man was under 50, showed me what to do, BRILLIANT man, sent me out to work on a job with a 60 year old, twice my size, old, swam with Johnny Weissmuller, the original Tarzan, and he said he would carry my toolbox, as I knew more than he did.

He would stroke the 50 pound dolly bars to move 5 or 10 ton parts into alignment.

I had very good experience in industry. In that mill, I met 1 prick and one semi-prick. Semi-prick was on a machine across the aisle from me. I needed a 1-2 mike. Didn't have one. Asked could I borrow his. He said "I will lend it to you ONE time. If you are going to be a machinist, buy your own!" I can sympathize with that.

Prick was when we were downsizing, getting down to shutting down. We supposedly were saving the company by combining trades, and an ass who went to an electrical school said "I paid my own money to learn how to hook 2 wires together. You can't expect me to teach anybody else how to connect 2 wires together!"

Prick was an asshole anyhow. 6 months later we were shut down.

None of this means some of the younkers here are NOT too dumb to consider themselves to be qualified. Some may know what they are doing. Some might piss some of you off that teens and 20's think they are as good as some of you 50's 60's.

Kids usually DO think THEY should be top pay because they are YOUNG AND PROGRESSIVE, they produce WAY more.

Not quite. Takes a bit of experience to even know what the business does.

Cheers,

George

Norman Atkinson
03-13-2009, 05:01 AM
I'm enjoying the posts! They provide an insight into the characters behind them.
It was interesting to note that none of you took the standpoint of - well, let's call it 'the one who pays the piper' or the guy who has a pot of money and has to gamble it on being able to sell it and at a profit.

I said earlier that I would throw the grenade in. So far, I deliberately left the pin in and it only rattled. So we on both sides of the Pond are facing all sorts of gloom and doom. We all know that it was only last week that 2/3rds of a million US workers were sacked. If we know a bit more about the World, the Chinese workers are not just going home for the New Year but forever. The top British firms in the high street are bust or nearly so.
You, gentlemen, are the ones that are wanting to supply goods to a dwindling market. Where do you stand? More importantly, with reduced demand, who gets the chop? An employer who reads- and pretty well guesses which comedian has ranted here is going to be pretty scary about continuing to employ.

BillH has been bragging about his flying hours. Fine, good luck to him. But William- my TV news is of shirt button air fares and dropping further in the UK.
An airline pilot will soon turn up at the controls with his dog.The dog is there to bite the pilot- if he touches anything. Am I right? well, I'm still very close to a battle squadron which has been around for almost 100 years. The Squadron, my squadron is thinking that way. Yesterday, I was watching our Tornados returning to base. OK, they may have been the Dambusters, or holed the Tirpitz or the boss man demolished Dresden or whatever. Tough, mateys, and off you go to write a book. Bill, you might get time to be in your workshop.

Again, there is the Bolshie in the workshop and the Quiet man who keeps his politics to himself. Who goes?

Me, well, I'm retired. I went into the bank the other day. Oddly, they were turning over heaven and earth to get my custom. I went in to another bank- in case there was a mistake or a fluke or something. Same conclusion!

But these arseholes were kicking an old man around- only last year.

Go figure

Norman