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View Full Version : What to pay for carbide inserts when it comes out of your pocket?



Your Old Dog
03-09-2009, 12:15 PM
I just got another flyer from MSC in my email. Now they are saying 45% of Kennametal and 35% off the others. They list the normal prices as 15$ - 25$ ! Do you guys really pay that much for one insert or are the prices just inflated.

Here's what the say


Includes Grades KC730, KC810, KC850, KC935, KC950, KU10T, KU30T, K68, K313



Kennametal Big Book Index (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4269760:5036252216:m:1:376053260:680657DDD6CDE9B6D E1CD9A401043642)
Kennametal Turning Inserts (http://echo4.bluehornet.com/ct/4269761:5036252216:m:1:376053260:680657DDD6CDE9B6D E1CD9A401043642)
Enter KMT45W in the promotional code box in the Shopping Cart when ordering online or mention the code when ordering via phone to receive the discount. Promotional price will be reflected in the Shopping Cart.


I'd like to get into carbides but the price is prohibitive for home shop use unless you guys know something I don't?

digger_doug
03-09-2009, 12:27 PM
YOD

try hemlytool.com

they deal in New old stock (surplus).

Take a nice ride down I-90, past Pa. about 5 exits
in ohio (madison) go south maybe 10 miles to route 6.

Is a nice ride, but not open on saturday.

But really, call them, they ship all the time, and maybe
one of their trucks is heading your way.

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 12:32 PM
That might be worth checking out in person.

Question is how good is their people? Do they know carbide or are they just a pass-through for used tooling?

What I'm getting at is how likely are they to be able to answer questions as opposed to just "sell" something?

Peter N
03-09-2009, 12:36 PM
Those prices sound rather high to me, but I don't know what the norm is in the USA as opposed to the UK.

I tend to buy most of my inserts from e-bay, as I know exactly what I want to suit my toolholders, and I usually end up paying anywhere around 12-20 for a box of 10 new inserts.
However, I had to order some Kennematal SCMT inserts from a dealer the other day, and these were on special offer at 2.83 each, down about 1 from the usual price, so I bought a box of 10. I got them from Cromwell Tools in the UK, who are often quite a bit cheaper than the MSC/J&L site over here.

I also find that if I ask for a discount when I phone to order from MSC/J&L, than I can usually get one quite easily.

Peter

John Stevenson
03-09-2009, 12:40 PM
I got them from Cromwell Tools in the UK, who are often quite a bit cheaper than the MSC/J&L site over here.

Peter

???????????????? I find Cromwell to be total rip off merchants.
They even charge VAT on books which isn't allowed here.

JND
03-09-2009, 12:40 PM
I'm in the same boat.I just purchased a carbide insert tool set.I have a limited tool budget right now,so opted for an import set of holders.I hated to do it with todays economy,but it was the only way I could afford inserts right now. I purchased from Western Tool & Supply,they had a complete selection of inserts,and holders.The sales person started with the upper end,and then showed me the less expensive models as well.The set I picked up was about $75.00,and extra inserts were about $6,$8.I will more than likely replace with a better quality set as these make me some money,but right now thats what I had to do.
There contact info is
Western Tool
925-443-8665
800-878-5371
I spoke with Donna,and she was very helpful,walked me through all the options over the phone,while I was online and could see everything she was talking about.I have no afiliation with the company,just a good experience.

dan s
03-09-2009, 12:41 PM
try here: http://carbidedepot.com/

I usually pay between $3 & $8 depending on chipbreaker, grade, & manufacture.

lakeside53
03-09-2009, 12:47 PM
I'm in the same postion. Yes.. they can be expensive.. especially if they only have 2 tips to reuse. Some negative rake inserts have 6 cutting tips so it makes the price much more reasonable, but negative rake and home-shop often don't go well togther. When dealing with MSC, always check Enco's prices. MSC owns Enco... Enco will have a less selection, but often much better prices. Buying by the box is cheaper.

One trick is to choose the tooling that has the lower cost inserts. I'm a home shop and don't need high end though-coolant CNC tooling, but I have some from garage sales. When I run out of the current insert supply, they will likely sit on the shelf. For most of my turning I use positve rake triangular TCCM 321 inserts - about as cheap as they get at $2-$5 (some list as high as $8) depending on the deal and the quality/grade. The ADPK inserts I use on my face mill cost me $12-18, and there's 5 on the tool. I crashed the tool last week and took out three of them:eek: :( My boring bars (too many) use a variety if inserts, but I generally buy the small 2.5 triangular.

If you know the insert numbers, and just want small quantity, dig around on ebay. There's a lot listed and you can get great deals. I have boxes of many types of inserts - maybe 25lb of them - and most I don't use -just acquired them as part of various lots. I also have a lot of tooling I don't use as I don't have the correct inserts, but one day...


And... although they are supposed to be throw-way... a quick trip to the CBN wheel can touch up a dulling lathe tool insert in seconds Sure, any coating will be gone, but it's gone anyhow when you're ready to touch up.


BTW... if you buy the 5 piece TT lathe set, you have a choice of "Import" (China/India) or USA. If you order on the web, Enco has the 1/2 inch USA for $59 (only shows that price if you put it in the cart), the Import for $29. The BIG difference is the screws. The import screws SUCK - made of chewing gum... Even though Enco says you can't use the USA screws on the Import, for the sets that I have they are interchangable - the USA screws are hardened, last, and are cheaper to replace. yes, screws are expensive -over $3 for the import, $2.10- for the USA. Sure wish they'd just use torx and be done with it!

Peter N
03-09-2009, 12:50 PM
???????????????? I find Cromwell to be total rip off merchants.
They even charge VAT on books which isn't allowed here.

Sometimes you just gotta shop around :D

In this case, J&L wanted 5.92 for the SCMTs (09T304LF), so Cromwell were half the price.
Both were Kennemetal KC850 grade.

VAT on books is a bit naughty though, perhaps you should report them so they get lumbered with a nasty VAT inspection.

Peter

madman
03-09-2009, 01:02 PM
I have a 15 x 40 inch cinncinatti lathe and a Bridgeport Mill. I use octagon type flycutters on the mill they work awesome for everything also have `6 edges. Trigon lathe tools are my favorite and they have 6 useable edges barring snapoping off situations. If you get nice tooling with a few xtra edge inserts it will save you money overall. Just my insert tip??

digger_doug
03-09-2009, 01:04 PM
"Do they know carbide or are they just a pass-through for used tooling? "

Uh liger zero, NEW old stock, not used.

They know their carbide, they are professional, but know what
you want when you call. The place is a "sea of vidmars" filled
with inserts.

You can search their inventory on the website, but it doesn't
have everything.

They also have new in a couple of different manufacturers.

They have ordered replacement screws for my insert's for a special
they didn't have.

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 01:09 PM
That answers my question Digger Doug. I delt with a wee shop in Lyons NY that merely collected old tooling, good luck getting any info on it.

He was getting tooling and stuff from the big Parker plant before they scaled back, he went under recently or at least stopped answering his phones. Lots of neat HSS bits ground into interesting shapes, carbide holders, inserts and other assorted things I don't know what they were, neither did he.

That's why I was asking. :)

dan s
03-09-2009, 01:14 PM
I don't know what they were, neither did he.

Maybe that's why he went under....

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 01:21 PM
Maybe that's why he went under....

That and his prices. Once I learned I could get new stuff for that price guess what? :p

lazlo
03-09-2009, 02:24 PM
The price of an insert seems inversely proportional to it's age and "sexiness".

So a TPG is common as dirt, and costs as much (about $1 - $2). A CCMT or CNMG is more modern, and costs, say $4 - $6 retail, depending on the brand, type of carbide, and the coating. The CCGT aluminum inserts that you non-HSS sharpening guys like so much :) are $10 - $15 each retail.

The helical (curved) inserts like the APKT's and XOMX's are crazy expensive -- $15 - $25 each retail.

I mentioned before that I'm finding that APKT's do cut better (with less force and chatter) than the SEHT/SEHW's or the Sandvik RA-245 shear mills, but they're so expensive that there's a high pucker factor when I load a facemill with 6 inserts ($90 worth of inserts!).

Lately, though, I've found an Ebay seller in England, of all places, who is selling Sandvik APKT's for about $3 each, which is a steal.

By the way, I agree with Bob about MSC/J&L/Enco on inserts -- they're ridiculously expensive, even with the 45% off. Then again, MSC is the exclusive dealer of Kennametal (that's why they bought J&L, because it was the Kennametal retail outlet), so they can charge anything they want...

dan s
03-09-2009, 03:03 PM
yea, retail prices are crazy some times, for example:

Kennametal CCGT21.51HP KC730

$17.34 MSC
$7.38 carbidedepot
Honestly, I wonder who is buying inserts from MSC :eek:.

Liger Zero
03-09-2009, 03:11 PM
yea, retail prices are crazy some times, for example:

Kennametal CCGT21.51HP KC730
$17.34 MSC
$7.38 carbidedepotHonestly, I wonder who is buying inserts from MSC :eek:.

People too lazy to shop around.

danlb
03-09-2009, 04:28 PM
I'll second carbide depot. They have many manufacturers, so you can chose the fancy or the cheap, as your needs dictate.

You have to be cautious... some inserts are sold in quantities of 10, others singly. So when it says $7.95 and you add it to your cart you have just rung up $79.50.

I have done quite well with their cheaper brands. I have touched them up with a diamond wheel mounted on a dremel with no visible impact.

Keep in mind that you do not always want the more expensive coated inserts. It depends on what you are working on.

Daniel

Mark McGrath
03-09-2009, 05:19 PM
Quote
"???????????????? I find Cromwell to be total rip off merchants.
They even charge VAT on books which isn't allowed here."

Hear! Hear! Cromwell is the worst tooling company in Britain bar none.Must be a new rep on the road as I came back one day to find their catalogue and special offer flyer on an office desk.Looked at their special offers and yes,they were special alright,about three times the price we pay elsewhere.
Still the Sherwood taps are ok if you have a lot of butter to tap.
Mark.

SDconcepts
03-09-2009, 05:27 PM
most if not all of the big box stores won't have any clue what your shopping for or why. ultimately for the home shop that will turn mostly aluminum the insert holders are fine. i would stay away from the holders that use the tcmt style inserts, not enough variety there, tmx sells a nice 5/16 holders set through KBC tools. most of my inserts i get from these guys. with the small holders set you can get a scmt, ccmt, dcmt holders and a small boring bar. inserts can make a break a home shop, but in the long run will be worth every penny.

Peter N
03-09-2009, 06:07 PM
Quote
"???????????????? I find Cromwell to be total rip off merchants.
They even charge VAT on books which isn't allowed here."

Hear! Hear! Cromwell is the worst tooling company in Britain bar none.Must be a new rep on the road as I came back one day to find their catalogue and special offer flyer on an office desk.Looked at their special offers and yes,they were special alright,about three times the price we pay elsewhere.
Still the Sherwood taps are ok if you have a lot of butter to tap.
Mark.

Maybe so, but half price on exactly the same part is still half price.
It would be plain daft not to use a discount like that when it's available.

Peter

John Stevenson
03-09-2009, 06:43 PM
Classic comparison of pricing between Cromwell and J&L

Take a metric keyway broach set of 4,5 6 and 8mm, very popular over here.
Cromwell lists the following.

6002 set contains: 4 x L0M series broaches sizes 4, 5, 6 and 8mm, 9 x guides for diameter 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22, 25, 28 and 30mm, 6 x shims 1 x 0.25, 1 x 0.50 and 4 x 0.75mm.

Order code: CTL-008-1010C
Suppliers Part Number: 6002
Offer price: 731.89 incl. VAT

Note 6 shims in the set, this means that the largest broach, the 8mm one has to be pushed thru then again 7 more times adding a shim each time, if you have a load of pulleys to do you finish up like Popeye.
Also note no 11mm, 19mm, and 24mm guideswhich are standard motor shaft sizes here and the ones you are most likely to use.

Now J&L offers the kit by DuMont called the No. 70 metric set.
Contains same broaches, 4mm, 5mm, 6mm and 8mm, full set of guides including motor sizes.
The first 3 broaches have one shim so that two passes to finish the keyway, the 8mm has two shims so that's 3 passes against Cromwells 8 passes.

Full price of the J&L set is 360.63 but they are often on offer, in fact they are on sale this month at 240 plus vat so 276 against Cromwells 732 and you do less work with the J&L set.

Here's the listing for the data book

ENGINEERS DATA REFERENCEBOOK NOV-08 V2 is currently in stock with high quantities available. Order code: CAT-849-0356A
Offer price: 4.59 incl. VAT
3.99 excl. VAT

There is no VAT on any books in the UK, never has been.

.

Mark McGrath
03-09-2009, 08:11 PM
Peter,
the main reason I do not use Cromwell is they had reps and tooling engineers with no morals.
Their tooling engineer came into our Lochgelly works about twelve years back and picked a part out a bin going out to a customer.He said that`s so and so`s part.my customer xxxx also makes these for him,if you want I`ll tool your machines up the same.
Now,apart from the fact that we were both running the same material on six spindle multis,my part was gleaming with an excellent finish and my competitors part looked like it had been turned with a broken chisel,I thought to myself if this guy is willing to blab his customers work to me he will also blab mine to other people,so out the door he went.
Over the next few weeks my customer had a string of people call him up wanting to quote for the parts I was making.
BTW,I had a good look through Cromwells catalogue last week especially at carbides and I did not see anything that even vaguely interested me even with the discounts they are quoting.Their stuff is priced just so high to start with.
I also looked at their lubricants as I was away to order a 205 litre drum of gear oil,their prices were about 400 % higher.

Peter N
03-09-2009, 08:31 PM
I'm not trying to promote them Mark, and I don't doubt what you and John are saying, but I've had a few things off them that have been far cheaper than J&L.

I have an account with J&L so I can web or phone order and get it next day if I'm in a hurry, but I have to use a card with Cromwell so they're not always first choice. And as such I have the luxury of searching around if I don't need it next day. As for oils, I just did a quick comparison for Castrol Magna BD68 slideway oil, at J&L it's 47.45 + vat, and at Cromwell it's 44.99+ vat, both for 20lts.
Not a lot of difference, but still cheaper and not many times the price.

Peter

John Stevenson
03-09-2009, 08:47 PM
Peter, Ring J&L up and quote BBCLU-62402M, 41.50 on offer.

That's for Magna BD68 slideway oil.

Best to just ring them up and ask what the best prices are.
Just got a handfull of 1.5mm double ended solid carbide end mills, should have been 9.14 they sold them to me for 5.13 each, Cromwell want about 14 quid for a single ended one.

.

bob ward
03-09-2009, 09:13 PM
I always have this vague feeling that inserts are overpriced for what they are, especially when you look at what else you can buy for the money.

For $4.50 I can go to the local machinery supply and buy over the counter a no brand TCMT insert, which is basically a bit of powder squished into a mould;)

Or for the same $4.50 I can go the bearing supply and buy over the counter a 20 x 47 (roughly 3/4" x 1 7/8") no brand ball bearing. It is 80 times the weight of the insert, and has a beautifully finished very accurate inner and outer ring, ball bearings, ball bearing cage and seals. A much bigger bang for your buck.

Not much use in the tool holder of your lathe or mill though:)

wierdscience
03-09-2009, 09:24 PM
Inserts and holders.Settle on one style insert for turning and stick with it.That way the same insert style fits all holders.This becomes important when you end up buying 10 ea quantities.The last thing you want is ten different styles of holders in the shop.Having to buy 5 or 10 inserts for each can get expensive quick.

Take a CNMG-422 that same insert can be had in heavy roughing,semi-finishing and finishing depending on chip breaker and will fit any CNMG-4xx holder.

Of course you will need to size the inserts and holders to work with your machines.

Holders,good ones can be had from TMX(Bison)KBC sells them they run 1/2-2/3 the cost of a Kennametal holder and are just as good.

Inserts,well IMHO Kennametal is tops,they cost,but will produce more chips per edge than anything else.

Insert cut off tools is a good place to start.MSC regularly has Manchester holders with 10 inserts for less than $100.These are the clamp type holders that are superior to the self-grip types.The last one I bought was a 5/8" shank,1-1/4" bar capacity with inserts for $89.The inserts usually cost that by themselves.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=1702661&PMT4NO=59822612

Threading inserts best IMHO for the home shop are the top-notch style-
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=21602886&PMT4NO=59822732

These are available in 60*v,ISO,Acme and square thread profiles,also grooving and profiling inserts can be had all to fit the same holder.

Mark McGrath
03-09-2009, 09:40 PM
Peter,
I have not used J&L for many years,since they decided Fife is not central Scotland.They are not the cheapest either but they keep calling or emailing me offering 35% of nearly everything.
The other problem I had many years ago with them was that I couldn`t get consistent results out of a box of Kennametal tips and in these days when the grade was not always on the insert and they sold single inserts if you wanted them I reckoned they were bundling any grade of insert into a box to fill it up.

Peter N
03-10-2009, 02:07 PM
Peter, Ring J&L up and quote BBCLU-62402M, 41.50 on offer.

That's for Magna BD68 slideway oil.
.

LoL. I was reading the monthly special offers flyer on the throne this morning and noticed that too. Trust me to pick an example so easily proven wrong :o

Mark, I'd be interested to know who you use, just in case there's any mileage in us low volume buyers getting in touch.
I've bought from WNT in the past, and though quality was good the catalogue was high on the confusing scale, not to mention the printed price list which bears no resemblance to what you actually pay (it's a bit like bearing prices on that account). Other likes Glendower are pretty good too, but I'm just too small for them to bother with.

Peter