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Spindle
04-05-2009, 02:33 PM
What do I need to mount a faceplate and 3 jaw Chuck on this dividing head?
This is all I have so far.
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu201/ironrelic/Dividing-Head-001.jpg
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu201/ironrelic/DividingHeadDiagram.jpg
http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu201/ironrelic/dh003.jpg

hardtail
04-05-2009, 03:15 PM
Now you have us all salivating how about some pics of the mill.......LOL

moldmonkey
04-05-2009, 04:09 PM
They use a 50 taper. Mine is a little different in that it uses 4 bolts. I don't have a chuck for that one but do have one for the Model K dividing head that one uses a drawbar instead of bolting to the face.. I really doubt you will find anything off the shelf maybe Ebay. You could take a 50 taper shell mill holder or large endmill holder and machine it to adapt to a chuck or faceplate. This would also require making a drawbolt that doesn't interfer when in the vertical posoition.

John Oder did a writeup on doing this in the Heavy Iron section of PM. I'll try to find it.

moldmonkey
04-05-2009, 04:30 PM
My bad. He made a backplate that bolted to the face of the spindle.

MR ODER'S WRITEUP (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=86789)

I also bought a 50 taper collet chuck to make it easier to hold small parts.
My K&T mill is 50 taper but I mainly use Kwik Switch 300 tooling.

beckley23
04-05-2009, 09:34 PM
On the Model H DH the spindle hole is a #40. I think the chuck mount is a modified A type, probably A1-4.
The #50 taper is for the 5:1 Hypoid head, which is a larger head.
Harry

moldmonkey
04-06-2009, 12:52 PM
I have both and they are both 50. Well I haven't even cleaned up the H yet. I haven't found a nameplate either so it could be a different brand (Cinncinatti?) but it sure looks like a K&T H. If they are anything like the K&T mills, every model had lots of possible configurations. The handbook will have the specs for milling maachine tapers to check which yours is.

Spindle
04-06-2009, 05:12 PM
Now you have us all salivating how about some pics of the mill.......LOL

Sorry, the mill is a Webb, not a K&T. But I'll get a pic if you want to see it.

Spindle
04-06-2009, 05:17 PM
50 taper/40 taper/A1-4? I don't know what any of that means. Can you make a reference to anything in the Enco, MSC, Wholesale Tool inventory?:confused:

moldmonkey
04-06-2009, 08:14 PM
Scoll down this page. Mill tapers can be NMTB, CAT, or BT in the various sizes. The same size is basically the same among the 3. CAT and BT are interchangeable except for the drawbar thread. NMTB has the extra straight section which makes for a different drawbar length and the slots for the driving lugs are slightly different (I forget the exact difference) which is usually gotten around by removing one of the lugs. Compare the largest diameter of the taper of your dividng head to the chart to find out if it is a 40 or 50.

http://www.tools-n-gizmos.com/specs/Tapers.html#CAT

I can't any specs for a A1-4 lathe spindle . A series is similar to Dseries but bolts on instead of using camlocks. Here are some lathe nose specs.

http://shopswarf.orconhosting.net.nz/chuckmt.html

JCD
04-06-2009, 09:38 PM
That is the same d-head I have.
I wold adapt the chuck and bolt it on.
Do you also have the user/owners manual? If so I would pay for a copy.
Please advise.
JCD

beckley23
04-07-2009, 06:12 PM
Sorry, I gave some bad information about the spindle mount of the K&T DH. It is not an A or D style, but a very simple mount. The OD of the spindle is 3-1/2" and it is straignt not tapered. The spindle does have a key way, and 3 mounting holes for a bolting on the chuck. The 1st picture is a close up of the spindle, with a driver key I made. The little round seating pin is screw operated from the top of the key. It firmly locates the chuck to keep from moving. The second picture is of the stuff I made for the head, with the exception of the dog driver. I do have all 7 of the index plates that K&T made for the head, the 3 standard and 4 high number plates, but I didn't have the index pin for the high number plates, the center sleeve, or the draw bar for #40 holders. These parts should be on the parts sheet. The 3rd picture is the backside of the chuck that came with the head. A backplate should be easy to make. The center recess goes over the spindle, and the screws attach it to the spindle. The 1st 2 pictures were taken 2 years ago, and the 3rd today. Hope this clarifies some questions for you.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/dh1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/dh2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/beckley23/dh3.jpg
Harry

Spindle
04-13-2009, 09:09 PM
Do you also have the user/owners manual?

I have just that diagram and parts list. PM me your email & I'll send you scans.
Which model is it, H, K? There's been a manual available on eBay for a while still listed today for a model K.

Spindle
04-13-2009, 09:11 PM
Thanks for all the ideas. I thought I was going to have to find the actual parts in the diagram.

Spindle
07-11-2009, 10:31 PM
OK, things have developed since my original posting of the question. Now I actually have a project that requires the use of this dindexing head.
The small end of the spindle is 1.123", and the big end is 1.709". Which doesn't match the chart sizes, but is closest to #40.

Can I just get a 40 taper 5C collet chuck or 3jaw chuck without having to make adapters? What about the drawbar? I wouldn't mind making a drawbar.:confused:

rockrat
07-12-2009, 09:54 AM
I saw this thread start a while back and just kept reading it to see how it all turned out. Sounds as though you are having more of a need for this piece of tooling that you own. So... A few questions.

What is the first item that you want to have on this dividing head for your project? Faceplate, collet or 3-jaw chuck (or something different)?

Do you have a lathe to make the parts needed for the taper?

It looks as though you have some measurements for the taper, but they don't directly match anything. Those two numbers are not all bad but you will need the exact distance between the measuring points to finish a taper calculation.

Since you think that you have something near a #40 why not find a #40 tapered tool holder of some sort and see how it fits. Many local machine shops enjoy little puzzles like this. Take it over to one and ask them if they have a #40 that you can try out in the head. If that wont work, purchase a #40 off of ebay, see how it fits and go from there.

OR

Get a chunk of round that is bigger than the spindle and kinda thick depending on what you want in the end. Turn the od and face it up so that the ends are parallel. On one end, cut a bore that will snugly fit over the spindle of the dividing head. Transfer the bolt pattern from the spindle to the plate that you just made. Counter bore some bolt holes in the plate. Now you have a universal bolt plate for this tool.

From that, if you want a collet chuck, decide on the collet type and fetch the dimensions for that type. Chuck back up on the plate (unless you are doing this while making the plate, then just do it all at once) indicate the large locating bore to absolute 0 tir and start cutting the collet dimensions.

If instead you want a 3-jaw mounted to it; find a 3-jaw chuck with a plain back or a known mount and in your adapter plate, cut the needed mounting. Remember to indicate it all up before cutting. If the 3-jaw is a plain back, then you will be bolting it to the adapter so you would have to indicate it as close as you can, drill and tap for bolts then put it on to the dividing head and finish indicate, then tighten it up. Dowel if you are getting crazy on the cutter pressures.

And yes, I dont see a reason that you cant get a #40 collet holder to put in there and run. I guess that would depend on exactly what you need to run in the dividing head. You would have to make a drawbar to fit the head and the collet holder.

What do you think? It takes a little time and you may well make an error, but thats how we all learn. I messed up a taper a few years back and had to start over, it happens. As for buying something off of the shelf, start looking. I dont know if anyone makes new stuff to bolt directly to this dividing head.

Your location is not in your profile so its tough to give you a supplier that might be close. I know that around here, HGR in Cleveland http://www.hgrindustrialsurplus.com/ might have something that would work. Also, http://www.industrialmachinery.com helps me out once in a while. Ask for Jake if you call. There is another place out toward Nashport Ohio that has all sorts of stuff.

rock~

Spindle
07-12-2009, 02:07 PM
Rockrat-

Now we're getting somewhere. Answers to your questions:

1. A collet would be best for the current project.

2. I recently got a Bradford Model 16 lathe which should do the taper if I need to make it.

3. Rough measurements with a ruler and dial caliper show this-
Big End: 1.762"
Small End: 1.130"
Total Taper=.632"
Spindle Length: 6.672"
Based on the big end number I'll find a machine shopwith a 40 and see how it fits.

4. I like the adapter plate plan.

Big Picture considerations:

My lathe came with a set of 5C collets, so I'd like to be able to use them in this DH also.

My mill is a Gorton I-22 with an NMTB 30 spindle and ZZ collets.
I'm going to replace that holder with an NMTB30 ER40 setup which I would also want to put on the DH.
Shar's has a 40 taper to 30 taper adapter.
Could I put that adapter in the DH & use the NMTB 30/ER40 holder with it, or is that too much to be rigid & stable? Would I have to bore out the NMTB40 adapter's drawbar threads so the drawbar could get to the NMTB30's threads?

I'm 60 miles south of Chicago, but that surplus place in Euclid looks like a good vacation destination. 12 acres! I could spend a week there.
Rex

rockrat
07-12-2009, 08:59 PM
If your the "I'll make that, get out of my way" type then grab the ol bull by the horns.

What project do you have for the DH? This will determine what method you might want to start with.

Search this forum for 5C dimensions and I would bet you'll find a link to a print. This will get you started on how big everything should be for your adapter plate.

I think that what you need to decide is how far out do you want to hang? Precision work on that should be supported underneath. Seems that I just read a thread on gear cutting and proper support here a few days back, but I could be wrong. Or, use a foot stock if you dont need any (or much) tilt. One should always try to keep the work close to the DH. Rigidity is key.

The 40 to 30 to collet conversion could work. As for the 40 needing the threads removed or not, I doubt it. The 40 has 5/8-11 thread which has a tap drill of 17/32 (.531). A 1/2-13 should fit down (snug) through it. This might be a quick way to get by. At worse you might have to flatten the crest of the thread just a bit.

I tried to look at the adapter on the Shar's site but the photo is not working. I wonder what the back end looks like. I also wonder how they will stack up. Do they nest deep inside each other or do they hang out real bad, as if you were trying to get an MT6 taper drill into a MT2 socket.

Do you have a foot stock for your DH? You can weld and grind up a quick one if needed. It does not have to be sexy, it just has to work. Here is a rough and tumble foot stock I hacked up to cut a gear.

Click for larger photo.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/katiecat222/gear/th_small_gear.jpg (http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y128/katiecat222/gear/small_gear.jpg)

Keep your mind running. Theres a soultion here.

rock~

Spindle
07-12-2009, 09:31 PM
RR-

After that post I found that I can get a BT40 holder for ER40 collets, and an NMTB30 holder for them too. If this DH is really a 40, I'll get both holders and a set of ER40s to use in the mill and the DH without stacking adapters. If that's a bad plan for any reason let me know. The 5C and chuck adapting can wait.

This is my first piece for the DH. It's a part of an ignitor for a hit and miss engine, OD @ .600". There are probably a hundred ways to do it without a DH, but I'd like to turn the round stock to size in the lathe, then do the drilling and cutting with the DH.
Rotary table is a possibility with the exception of the drilling. Getting tooling for the rotary table center hole will be an entirely different discussion.

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu201/ironrelic/aaignoutersleeveoff.jpg

http://i648.photobucket.com/albums/uu201/ironrelic/ignsleeveend.jpg

Spindle
07-14-2009, 05:08 PM
Trip to local machine shop showed it to be a 40. Now to buy an ER40 collet set..:)

Thanks for the help, I'll be back.
Often.

daryl bane
07-14-2009, 05:52 PM
I thought I would chime in here. I have a B&S that is very similar to what you have. What I am going to do is build a D1-3 spindle mount that bolts to the front of the Indexer. That way, a whole range of chucks can be mounted, with the added benefit of turning work on the lathe, removing it and reinstalled on the indexer without disturbing the work. You model engine builders out there can appreciate that setup.

Spindle
07-15-2009, 09:49 PM
Sounds like something I would like to see since I also want to mount a 5C & lathe chucks on this DH.