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Liger Zero
04-06-2009, 03:55 PM
I found this in an old book that my neighbor slipped me this afternoon.

The book is "Formulas Methods Tips And Data" by Kenneth M. Swezey. The stamp in the cover says NOVEMBER 1981, I didn't look at the publish date...

There is a section on metalworking how-to including how to use some SERIOUSLY NASTY POTIONS to color metal and etch and other interesting stuff. I'm talking "experienced HazMat Dude Goes :eek: When he Reads the Chapter" stuff. :D

Anyway, one of the recipes is for "Soda-Soap Cutting Fluid"




"One of the cheapest lubricant-coolents used for turning and milling steel is a soda soap mixture you can make yourself:


1 and 1/2 oz Sal Soda (washing soda)
3 oz Lard Oil
3 oz Soft Soap
Water, enough to make (1 gal suggested)

Dissolve the sal soda in the water which should be warm to make solution easier. Then stir in the soft soam and finally the lard oil. Boil slowly for 1/2 hour, with occasional stirring. If the solution smells bad correct by stirring in about 3 ounces of unslaked lime."

First of all, what is Sal Soda (Washing soda)? Is it just sodium bicarb? EDIT: See posts below --Liger Zero

Second, what excatly is this mixture/solution? Is it safe to use? Will it dissolve my ChinaCom lathe? Corrosive? Toxic?

Third... It says steel but will it work on say... aluminum? brass? copper? other materials?

Based on my chemistry-phu I'm not getting any major alarm-bells here but before I wip up a batch I figure it best to consult with the experts here.

It'd be nice to be able to make my own non-lethal coolant at home.

lazlo
04-06-2009, 04:06 PM
If you look in the back of some of the old machinery texts, like Machine Shop Practice, they have a list of material cross-listed by the old-school coolants and lubricants.
None of those ingredient is toxic, although I've read that TCE plus olive oil was a killer lubricant...

I can post a scan when I get home...

Barrington
04-06-2009, 04:19 PM
Actually washing soda is sodium carbonate , not bicarbonate.

The carbonate is much more alkaline, and quite nasty to skin in high concentrations - but I don't think 1.5 oz per gallon would qualify as high.

Cheers.

Liger Zero
04-06-2009, 04:26 PM
Actually washing soda is sodium carbonate , not bicarbonate.

The carbonate is much more alkaline, and quite nasty to skin in high concentrations - but I don't think 1.5 oz per gallon would qualify as high.

Cheers.

Thanks for the clarification.

John Stevenson
04-06-2009, 04:41 PM
Handy stuff to keep around in the summer as it keeps the flies off your melon..............

.

Duffy
04-06-2009, 06:09 PM
That is just a recipe for a simple, (sophisticates would say crude,) soluble cutting oil. Washing soda is one of several hydrates of sodium carbonate. The WHOLE WORLD once had it as a basic laundry additive and the world, as we know it, did not end! It is QUITE alkaline, about pH 10 and in a concentrated solution, it would probably make your hands red and "dish-panny."
An awful lot of the "old recipes" will frighten a Haz Mat person. That is possibly because they are trying to think with inadequate tools! One of the BEST case hardening recipes is as follows:- In a cast steel pot, place about five pounds of sodium cyanide. Place on fire in forge and heat until thoroughly melted. Place part to be hardened, (hung from a piece of soft iron wire,) in liquid for as long as it takes for the required depth of case. About five minutes will give a couple of thou. It is suggested that a) do NOT bring to the boil because it will give off more fumes and worse, the pot may burn through. b) dont stand down wind!
This is not quoted from a book, this is how we were taught it in my high school shop in the early fifties. Nobody died, in fact, nobody thought anything of it; it was just done that way! Incidentally, the vapour pressure of NaCN around its melting point is not very high-but in retrosect, it sounds pretty scary. Duffy

Liger Zero
04-06-2009, 06:20 PM
I might make a gallon of it just for the learning experience.

Down the road in the next town is a chemical company that deals with Serious Stuff. My friend works there and can dispose of near anything in small amounts provided I tell him what it is and pay a small fee.

Good arrangement for sure, however quite sure he wouldn't be thrilled if I showed up with five pounds of sodium cyanide. ;)

Liger Zero
04-06-2009, 06:24 PM
Also a quick comment: I work with one of the local fire departments. Not a fireman but I do work closely with them.

We prefer to think in terms of WORST CASE but hope for the best. We are often the ones with the brains, it's the people who create the situations that require Haz Mat that are a few bricks shy of a wall. :)

Case in point: The film-and-bag company south of here that sickened 120 workers because it was cheaper to not replace the filters in the fan-house as often. Filters clogged, fans overheated and shutdown, ammonia fumes sicken 120... but hey they were mostly Temp Workers who were fired for taking time off for treatment.

Norman Atkinson
04-06-2009, 06:37 PM
I use pure lard oil! Buy it in 5 litre containers( a sort of gallon)

Once it gets hot - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!


Norm

Liger Zero
04-06-2009, 06:42 PM
liter containers( a sort of gallon)

Norm
:D I know what a liter is.

Bugs the hell out of my boss because I can work and think directly in metric without converting.

Rich Carlstedt
04-06-2009, 11:37 PM
You buy washing soda at the grocery store.
Its called
Arm and Hammer Washing Soda. not baking soda or bicarb !
Thats also the stuff to use with the electrical rust remover (using Battery charger)

rich

Norman Atkinson
04-07-2009, 02:48 AM
This 'Washing Soda' thing also comes up as one of classic recipes of old.
Ignoring Lard, Turpentine(the real stuff), soft soap(?), and tallow, it was actually used on its own in water in the Tyneside factories.
Actually, I knew one of the blokes who used it- he was using it to scrape the huge lathe beds which were manufactured here.

There is one caution and that is definite corrosion if an immediate clean up is not done.

Don Wojtaszek
04-07-2009, 03:24 AM
Hello Anybody,

What is Lard Oil?

bollie7
04-07-2009, 06:09 AM
Google is your friend

Lard oil is the clear, colourless oil pressed from pure lard after it has been crystallized, or grained, at 7 C (45 F). It is used as a lubricant, in cutting oils, and in soap manufacture. The solid residue, lard stearin, is used in shortenings and as a source of saturated fatty acids.

Lard
http://cache-media.britannica.com.cdnetworks.net//eb-media/96/125596-003-9130DA82.gif (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic-art/330494/119817/Lard) soft, creamy, white solid or semisolid fat with butter-like consistency, obtained by rendering or melting the fatty tissue of hogs. A highly valued cooking and fat, lard is blended, frequently after modification by molecular rearrangement (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/388198/molecular-rearrangement) or hydrogenation, with other fats and oils to make shortening (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/541769/shortening). Antioxidants are usually added to lard and shortenings to protect against rancidity. Lard is also used in pharmacy and perfumery to make ointments and pomades.
Lard varies with the production method and the fat-bearing animal parts used. Steam- or wet-rendered is made by injecting steam under pressure into a closed vessel containing hog fats. Open-kettle-rendered or dry-rendered (enclosed-system) lards, which are darker in colour, are made by melting hog fats in steam-jacketed vessels; the residue is called cracklings. Neutral lard is prepared by melting leaf fat (from around the kidneys) and back fat at about 49 C (120 F). Continuous rendering involves grinding, rapid heating, and separation of fat from the cells by centrifuging. Lard composition varies with the diet of the hogs. The predominant fatty acids (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/202621/fatty-acid) are oleic, palmitic, stearic, and linoleic.


bollie7

lazlo
04-07-2009, 09:26 AM
Lard oil is the clear, colourless oil pressed from pure lard after it has been crystallized, or grained, at 7 C (45 F). It is used as a lubricant, in cutting oils, and in soap manufacture.


Then stir in the soft soam and finally the lard oil. Boil slowly for 1/2 hour, with occasional stirring. If the solution smells bad correct by stirring in about 3 ounces of unslaked lime.

For as much trouble and cost to make that prehistoric cutting lube, I'd just buy a gallon of modern coolant/cutting lube like TrimSol from Enco for $19 with free shipping:

http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PARTPG=INLMKD&PMPXNO=24522429&PMAKA=SM319-3910

E206 Soluble Oil

• Designed as a general-purpose, multi-metal coolant for general machining of ferrous and nonferrous metals
• EP additive controls built-up edge
• Fine-emulsion particle size reduces carry-off and facilitates getting fluid to point of cut
• Leaves a fluid, oily, non-gumming film

FatWheels
04-07-2009, 10:18 AM
I'm no chemist nor do I play one on TV but this soluble oil mixture is quite mild and nothing to worry about. I don't want to drink any, but if you've ever had your mouth washed out with soap when you were little, you've already had the experience. As is discussed each and every time electrolytic rust removal is reviewed, this recipe's constituents are all septic safe and harmless. Apart from the lard oil, this reads like the formula for homemade laundry soap, only much weaker in ph.

regards,

Jim

digger_doug
04-07-2009, 10:21 AM
"I use pure lard oil! Buy it in 5 litre containers( a sort of gallon)

Once it gets hot - ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!"

Jeesh, thank's Norman for that, Now I'm hungry.

Fresh cut potatoe's (with the peel) deep fryed in pure lard...

French fries...vinegar anyone ?

davidfe
04-08-2009, 09:46 AM
Recipe sounds geat.

I think I'd look at storing it in the freezer/fridge.

Also, the antioxidants to avoid the rancid smell and
chemical degridation is also something I think
would be beneficial.

Lastly, I'd consider some sort of fragerance. Bet it
might stink if heated during use.