PDA

View Full Version : Sticky slide problem



bpsbtoolman
04-12-2009, 08:18 AM
I bought a nice Hardinge turret head with no rust but slides that will not slide. I suspect the old turret was stored for many years and the lube oil had polymerized into a sticky semi solid brownish substance. The few parts I could remove showed a material I could scrape off with my finger nail to show a clean surface. Thinking of soaking the whole unit in kerosene for a couple of days to desolve of free the slides. Any sugestions?
Walt

Evan
04-12-2009, 09:17 AM
Sounds to me that it was coated with Cosmoline to protect it. To remove Cosmoline boil in water with some TSP or dishwasher detergent, or just run it through the dishwasher on the pots and pans cycle. Oil well immediately after it dries.

JCHannum
04-12-2009, 12:07 PM
I don't know that I would want to put a Hardinge turret in the dishwasher or boil it in TSP, both methods could work, provided the turret would fit in a pot or the dishwasher, but would require a complete dismantling to dry and rustproof the parts.

Kerosine or diesel will work, but stink up the area. I use WD40 to clean the gunked up and dried out lube that you frequently encounter on long stored machine parts. It works just as well, and has a more pleasant odor. Plain mineral spirits or deodorized mineral spirits is another alternate.

DR
04-12-2009, 12:49 PM
Stick with solvents that don't cause any corrosion or rusting.

None of the Hardinge manual machines I know of were designed to even use water soluble coolants.

I've seen a couple of older Hardinge automatics that appeared in good condition, but were basically ruined internally by usage of water solubles.

Evan
04-12-2009, 12:50 PM
If it is Cosmoline it isn't particularly soluble in mineral spirits. If drying is a concern after boiling, which normally is not the case, then rinsing with straight rubbing alcohol or gas line deicer will remove any moisture.


None of the Hardinge manual machines I know of were designed to even use water soluble coolants

I am curious, how do you tell if a machine was designed for use with water soluble coolants?

dalee100
04-12-2009, 04:06 PM
Hi,

If it is cosmoline, (which I kind of doubt), simply applying heat from a heat gun will soften it up. I've de-cosmolined numerous military surplus rifles that way. Rifles that were covered in it for 40 to 50 years. Solvents such as brake cleaners will help remove it after it's softens.

I suspect you are correct in thinking it's old way lube. Possibly with a coolant mix in it. I would try a petroleum based solvent, outdoors of course, and see what happens.

dalee

Alistair Hosie
04-12-2009, 04:11 PM
Evan remind me not to eat off the plates in your house.:DAlistair

J Tiers
04-12-2009, 05:50 PM
I AGREE with Evan that water isn't necessarily bad.

HOT water, with a basic (not acidic) compound in it will NOT cause rust. I routinely wash machine parts in water, and there is no damage or rust.

Boiled parts will dry fast..... or you can use a hot air gun/hair dryer, dunk in WD or alcohol, etc. But you Do need not to leave assembled parts together, where they can trap water.

Solvents do not clean parts. They dissolve gunk, at least you hope they do. But they leave a deposit of a small amount of whatever has been dissolved in them, on the parts.

As for loosening that part up? I'd just heat it up, and see if that does not free it up. No torch, a hot air gun or hair dryer will do it if it's gonna happen.

Save the big hammers for a backup plan.

DR
04-12-2009, 07:28 PM
.................................................. ....................

I am curious, how do you tell if a machine was designed for use with water soluble coolants?

The Hardinge instruction manuals clearly state not to use water solubles.

The later models built as water solubles came into more common usage have factory plaques prominently displayed saying not to use water solubles.

DR
04-12-2009, 07:40 PM
BTW, the OP says "Hardinge turret head".

I'm assuming he means a bed turret off one of the second op machines. Those are one of the only Hardinge turret heads I can think of that slides in addition to indexing.

Those weigh in the 80+/- pound range, are cumbersome and have a relatively complicated indexing mechanism internally. I certainly would not immerse one of these in water. I also would not dismantle it to free it up. WD40 should free it up, plus keeping it in a warm location.

Evan
04-12-2009, 10:03 PM
The Hardinge instruction manuals clearly state not to use water solubles.



So, if it doesn't have such a plaque then the machine is designed to use water soluble coolants?

DR
04-12-2009, 10:45 PM
So, if it doesn't have such a plaque then the machine is designed to use water soluble coolants?

Not necessarily, the older machines didn't have the plaque.

As far as I know none of the Hardinge manual machines and automatics (DSMA & AHC) were designed to use water solubles.

I believe the newer CNC's can use water solubles. Not sure about the CHNC's.

J Tiers
04-12-2009, 11:21 PM
I suspect that the "no soluble oil" thing is juat a variety of what I said above.....


But you Do need not to leave assembled parts together, where they can trap water.

If you are going to boil, or whatever cleaning using water, you are also going to disassemble the parts if they have any particularly close fitting bits.

it's not a bad idea with solvents either. The need to disassemble has disclosed to me many worn shafts, and un-guessed-at reservoirs of chips and grit which would have caused major problems later if not addressed.

And solvent can carry crud into bad places as well as water can. It just is less prone to causing rust.

Ian B
04-13-2009, 12:47 AM
If the problem is with slides that are locked together (by whatever kind of gunk it is), couldn't you slacken off the gib adjusting screws all the way to give the slide excessive clearance, and then give it a sideways whack with a soft mallet to break the gunk's grip?

Strip & clean it, reassemble & readjust after that.

Ian

Evan
04-13-2009, 03:09 AM
If you boil a large assemblage of metal to clean it it is highly unlikely that water will remain anywhere unless it resembles a tank. The metal will remain very hot for quite long enough to evaporate the water from any place it was able to penetrate. It's a lot easier for water vapor to escape than it is for liquid water to penetrate. If in doubt then an hour or so in a warm oven will remove all doubt. Water is the most universal of all solvents especially when combined with a detergent.

There is no direct comparison possible between the daily use of water based coolants and boiling an item to clean it. Boiling to clean will not injure the parts. This is of course assuming that the item in question is actually made from metal and not for instance a rare tropical hardwood such as Jatoba.

bpsbtoolman
04-13-2009, 08:11 AM
I have tried putting DW40 in the gib screw holes after removing them. also DW40 on the ends of the gibs with the turret on end. Some force on the gib ends did not make them brake free. It was sugested in another forum that lacquer thinner is the best way by basting it or completly covering it.
There in rust at all so I think its polymerized oil from being stored a long time. I was able to take the turret head out and a plate on top and both showed a brownish sticky stuff I could remove with my finger nail and show a bright clean surface. Wetting a cloth with acetone and gasoline and rubbing will take it off.
I have no manuals for use or servicing it. The guts of the thing look complicated. Boiling it in a water detergent solution makes me think I could rust some parts and make the situation worse.
Walt

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 08:12 AM
Boiling of the turret is academic die to its size and weight. It will not fit into a spaghetti pot or a dishwasher, so some other means will be needed to remove the accumulated crud, which is no doubt residuals of old machine and cutting oil. Solvent cleaning is the best method, the question being which to use, the answer is whichever of the mentioned is available and least offensive to you. If the odor of kero is not a problem, it will work as well as any.

Cleaning with hot or boiling water is not a bad thing when applicable, but an assembly as large and complex as a Hardinge turret head is not a good candidate. Unless it is completely dismantled to remove all water, the potential for damage is too great. Heat alone cannot be counted on to remove water from all areas of the fixture.

Evan
04-13-2009, 08:17 AM
Heat alone cannot be counted on to remove water from all areas of the fixture.


Do you know something about water that the scientific establishment has yet to discover?

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 08:33 AM
I know quite a bit about water. I also know enough about Hardinge turret heads and their mass and complexity to realize the method is a poor choice. There are way too many crevices and pockets that will trap and retain water and water vapor long enough for the device too cool enough to leave water in places you do not want it to be.

J Tiers
04-13-2009, 08:57 AM
I know for sure that as the water evaporates, the part will rapidly cool by giving up heat to the vapor..... Water is very good at carrying off heat that way. And it will start only at boiling temp, or below.

So, with any complicated part, yes I definitely can see water staying in crevices etc, and causing problems.... In fact I HAVE seen it.

Take the darn thing apart and dry it if you DO use water cleaners.

The point is not just to get it moving, but to remove all the crud that is sticking it. That is likely to remain in between tightly fitting surfaces, waiting to sieze up again. You need to open them up and clear it out... Washing it out with solvents through the tight clearances is possible, but will take a long time, and each washing will remove only a certain percentage...... there will always be some left.

Seems elementary, so long as the parts CAN be disassembled without doing damage or disturbing factory settings that cannot be duplicated, it is best to do so. ESPECIALLY if water-based cleaners are used.

Evan
04-13-2009, 09:02 AM
Xerox uses hot water with an ionic surfactant added to pressure wash photocopiers complete with mechanical and electronic assemblies, wiring, connectors, chain drives, clutches and optics. This is followed by the application of mildly warm air to enhance evaporation. Washing with hot water will not damage a lathe turret regardless of what make it is.

Glenn Wegman
04-13-2009, 09:20 AM
Seems like the question would be how long to apply the heat in order to thoroughly dry all of the moisture after boiling. Not a question of IF it will dry it.

So...the question for Evan might be:

How would you determine the duration of heat application required to completely dispell all water vapor without disassembling it to see if it is completely dry?

Glenn

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 10:15 AM
Washing a lathe turret with water will not damage it. Not taking adequate steps to ensure all water is removed definitely will. Heat may or may not be adequate to remove all water. The only to ensure it is completely dry is to dismantle and physically inspect.

DR
04-13-2009, 11:31 AM
Okay so much for the merits of water as a cleaner.......no point in arguing that issue since we all know it can be used to clean things.

Let's get specific. How are you water cleaner guys going to boil it? I no longer own any Hardinge turrets, but from memory I don't believe they would fit into a large pan on the stove top, even a large turkey roaster pan.

Looking at our kitchen oven, it seems like it might fit in there. Of course, my wife would not allow it to be done in our house, maybe yours would.

Then, after baking it would need to be disassembled to verify all the water was gone. Internally these turrets have all sorts of crevices and under cut passages that could potentially trap water. The accuracy and rigidity of Hardinge turrets depends on very precise fits of a number of non-adjustable sliding and rotating parts, it's important no water be left there.

As I recall (having taken apart a couple for repair) there are a few tricks to getting it back together. There's one particular screw setting that determines whether the turret will auto index on retraction. There are no gaskets, shims or plastic to be damaged. The Hardinge repair manual covers all aspects of working on the turret.


My advice to the OP is use solvents. WD40, paint thinner, lacquer thinner, gasoline, penetrating oil, whatever (except water). One of my Hardinge machines had been in gov storage for years. Everything on that one was stuck, application of solvents over a period of days managed to free things up.

Evan
04-13-2009, 11:40 AM
Start by having it steam cleaned instead of boiling. That will ensure there is no water remaining.

As I already wrote, any possibility of remaining water can be negated by rinsing with alcohol. It combines with the water and makes it unavailable as an oxidation promoter. The alcohol has lower viscosity than water and will reach any place that water can reach, plus some. Water does not cause rust or corrosion. It promotes it under the right conditions. The oxidation reaction with oxygen needs water to occur under normal conditions.


How would you determine the duration of heat application required to completely dispell all water vapor without disassembling it to see if it is completely dry?


Use a thermometer. Once the metal is above 100C there will be no remaining liquid water. Water vapour doesn't matter.

garyphansen
04-13-2009, 11:49 AM
I will third (seconded) was already taken Evan advice to boil it. I have done similar things many times with good results. Gary P. Hansen

DR
04-13-2009, 12:04 PM
.................................................. .........

As I already wrote, any possibility of remaining water can be negated by rinsing with alcohol.
.................................................. .......



Now you're talking, use the alcohol first and you can probably skip the water borne cleaning.

Glenn Wegman
04-13-2009, 12:52 PM
Use a thermometer. Once the metal is above 100C there will be no remaining liquid water.

How do you boil your speghetti? Or the turret for that matter if the water all goes away at 100C? :)

The turret has mass. An ounce of water trapped down in a cavity will take a greater period of time to boil out than water beaded up on the outer surface. As in heat treating, how do you know how long it will take to heat soak the entire mass vs just measuring the surface temp at 100c? That is my question. There is a significant difference between immersing and boiling something and steam cleaning something as far as water intrusion.

I have a hot water pressure cleaner and a heated Ultrasonic cleaner. The Ultrasonic will definitely put water where the pressure cleaner cleaner won't.

Glenn

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 12:59 PM
So now we are up to a steam cleaner, oven bake and alcohol flush to preclude any potential damage from corrosion. How silly of us to suggest simply soaking in a suitable solvent for a couple of days.

topct
04-13-2009, 04:08 PM
I bought a nice Hardinge turret head with no rust but slides that will not slide. I suspect the old turret was stored for many years and the lube oil had polymerized into a sticky semi solid brownish substance. The few parts I could remove showed a material I could scrape off with my finger nail to show a clean surface. Thinking of soaking the whole unit in kerosene for a couple of days to desolve of free the slides. Any sugestions?
Walt

I would take it all the way apart. If I did not know how, I would find out.

A soaking with kerosene first would not hurt anything. It would make it easier to take it, "all the way" apart.

QSIMDO
04-13-2009, 04:32 PM
Bring it to an engine builder and have him soak it in his block tank.

topct
04-13-2009, 05:04 PM
Bring it to an engine builder and have him soak it in his block tank.

And then take it all the way apart. Immediately.

The thing is, if the slide is stuck, what else in there might be all crapped up? Things that, even though you have the slide freed up, another piece inside might be hanging up. I would not have a problem with making sure it was completely clean either.

Evan
04-13-2009, 08:56 PM
So now we are up to a steam cleaner, oven bake and alcohol flush to preclude any potential damage from corrosion. How silly of us to suggest simply soaking in a suitable solvent for a couple of days.

How silly indeed. I suggest you compare the cost of the solvent alternative to the cost of hot water. Then there is the problem of either disposal or storage of contaminated solvent. What did you have in mind?

Also, as Jerry pointed out, the solvent becomes essentially a low grade paint. As it evaporates it leaves behind whatever was dissolved in the first place, unless you intend to rinse with more clean solvent, several times.

The solvent is of course flammable and as you pointed out the turret is a good size. A lot of solvent would be required.

Yes indeed, that is much easier, cheaper, safer and simpler. How silly of me not to see that.

Evan
04-13-2009, 09:06 PM
How do you boil your speghetti? Or the turret for that matter if the water all goes away at 100C?

The turret has mass. An ounce of water trapped down in a cavity will take a greater period of time to boil out than water beaded up on the outer surface. As in heat treating, how do you know how long it will take to heat soak the entire mass vs just measuring the surface temp at 100c? That is my question. There is a significant difference between immersing and boiling something and steam cleaning something as far as water intrusion.


You don't cook, do you?

If you heat a large mass of metal in an oven for instance and the temperature is set to say 250F, the entire mass will have to heat to 250 for the surface to be at 250. There isn't enough temperature differential for the surface temperature to exceed the core temperature to a significant degree. You also don't need a thermometer. Just flick a few drops of water on the surface. If they sizzle, it's done. By the time it cools off there will not be the slightest trace of water left.

What I see here is resistance to an idea that is the easiest and most common way to deal with the problem. The resistance is either because you and others didn't propose it first or because "you" simply don't know enough about the very simple process of washing things with hot water and soap.

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 09:07 PM
Er, just how much flammable, expensive alcohol will be required to displace the water? Seems to me to be a trade off, kero is probably cheaper, application and volume required could be the same in either case.

What do you propose to do with the contaminated alcohol? It will also require disposal. It is also a flammable solvent and will require the same handling as any other like material.

I am rather familiar with washing things in soap and water, Nothing at all wrong with it, and it is appropriate in many cases. I routinely wash my most expensive piece of equipment with soap and water.

Soap and water or hot water could be used to clean the turret assembly as well, that has not been debated. I do debate that the attendant problems with removal of the water that will remain trapped in the workings of said turret makes the use of water much more involved than is needed. A solvent soak will dissolve the dried out oil, and free the mechanism, which is what the OP wished to accomplish.

Evan
04-13-2009, 09:13 PM
What contaminated alcohol? The alcohol is applied to the very clean metal in small quantity to remove water, not crud. Depending on the type you can either drink it, or use it to start the BBQ. Or, just let it evaporate, it's environmentally friendly.

Alcohol doesn't displace water, it combines with it. It makes the water unavailable to promote corrosion. As the alcohol evaporates it carries the water with it. Very little is required to accomplish this.

Note: I buy 95% anhydrous ethanol at the grocery store, sold as rubbing alcohol. I use it to degrease and to chemically dry parts. Each ounce of alcohol can absorb another ounce of water. A half liter bottle costs $3.00 and would be far more than needed.

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 09:31 PM
Combine or displace, the alcohol will have to reach the water to tie it up. Wiping the surface will not be sufficient with an intricate piece of equipment that has been thoroughly soaked. It will not reach into a tight slide or plunger assembly or a long fine thread for instance.

Disposal in an industrial situation can not be as casual as in one's home. Evaporation or lighting the barbie would not be accepted by the environmental folks.

See my edited post above re water washing.

ulav8r
04-13-2009, 09:42 PM
I have used hot water and soap to clean a polished gun barrel prior to re-bluing. Immediately rinsed with hot water as soon as it quit beading, indicating that it was clean. The hot metal dried instantly and was covered with a light coat of rust within 5 minutes.

Evan
04-13-2009, 10:02 PM
You are supposed to oil it before it cools entirely. A lot depends on the local humidity. Even a spray with WD40 will do the job.



Combine or displace, the alcohol will have to reach the water to tie it up. Wiping the surface will not be sufficient with an intricate piece of equipment that has been thoroughly soaked. It will not reach into a tight slide or plunger assembly or a long fine thread for instance.

If the water go in there so will the alcohol. The alcohol isn't really required anyway. A mass of metal that size has more than enough stored heat to boil off an ounce or two of water.



Disposal in an industrial situation can not be as casual as in one's home. Evaporation or lighting the barbie would not be accepted by the environmental folks.

There are no regulations pertaining to the disposal of small quantities of ethanol, isopropanol or methanol. Methanol is sold as windshield washer solution which is freely sprayed and evaporated by the millions of gallons every winter. Ethanol may be poured down the drain. Isopropanol is used as a topical remedy to prevent infection.


You are really reaching and in the process are making it very clear that you don't care a whit about what is really being proposed. Instead you are trying to pick a fight and by doing so are making a fool of yourself.

JCHannum
04-13-2009, 10:24 PM
I am not picking a fight, merely pointing out that water cleaning is not always a suitable means of cleaning a large and complex assembly due to the problems associated with ensuring it is removed from all areas internal and external. The heat of the boiling water alone will not be sufficient to remove it from complex internals. Neither will alcohol reliably be drawn into the nooks and crannies. If water is used, the head will require complete dismantling to ensure it is thoroughly dry followed by oiling and reassembly to guard against the now unprotected metal from rusting.

A Hardinge turret head is a complex and expensive piece of equipment. There is no convenient means to use hot water to clean it as you propose. To take a chance of destroying it to save a couple of dollars in cleaning materials is simply not worth the risk of damaging or destroying it. Solvent cleaning will do the job without that risk. End of story.

J Tiers
04-13-2009, 10:34 PM
Can we possibly "boil this down" a bit?

Water and say, washing soda, will clean things quite well, thank you. Lye does even better. Soaps and detergents also work, although less well on semi-polymerized glop.

A complicated assembly is best taken apart for a couple reasons.....

In the first place, you want the water to get in carrying the cleaner, and have the cleaner react with the crud, in whatever way the selected cleaner does... That is pretty difficult if the crud is contained in a small space a thou or so thick, and 300 thou or more deep. It WILL eventually happen, particularly with heat, but much faster if more area is exposed.

In the second place, you want the water and cleaner to leave the area when done. This WILL eventually happen even through small spaces as mentioned above, but again it takes longer and is more troublesome than when the narrow spaces are separated and exposed to air.

Alcohol does dissolve in water, and vice-versa. It is somewhat the same as the solvent issue, however, as it always leaves behind some water as it evaporates. It is a percentage solution issue, and depends on the relative amounts of materials.

If you cannot disassemble, you MUST rely on heat etc, assuming that does no harm. If you CAN disassemble, it is best to do that.

Disassembly has the advantage of allowing removal of physically large crud that may be trapped.... it rarely wants to come out the way it went in, if you can even identify that route. And if it has been squashed down in there, it may no longer fit through anyway.

ulav8r
04-13-2009, 11:00 PM
Boiling or hot water and soap/detergent is great for cleaning if the part can be oiled immediately afterward. Hot metal and moisture is a certain recipe for rust. I would highly recommend that the unit be disassembled before cleaning so that water displacing oil can get to all surfaces immediately.

Glenn Wegman
04-14-2009, 08:04 AM
What I see here is resistance to an idea that is the easiest and most common way to deal with the problem. The resistance is either because you and others didn't propose it first or because "you" simply don't know enough about the very simple process of washing things with hot water and soap.

Evan,

Thank you for the enlightenment on this. Until you educated me, I guess I just never realized that the industry standard method for cleaning machine tools was to simply submerge them fully assembled and boil them! It makes perfect sense!

And you are again correct, as I am quite jealous since I had never thought to propose this terrific idea before you did :)

You are fortunate to live in a rust free environment.

Glenn

Seastar
04-14-2009, 08:43 AM
+A1 for Evan!
Shame on all you closed mind "experts"!
Bill