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Evan
04-17-2009, 02:15 PM
This is too cool. Can anybody see for sure how it is propelled? I suspect a small prop in the slots of the forward fins. It sure does fly well.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/941727/rc_sidewinder_missile/

Barrington
04-17-2009, 02:34 PM
Found a copy - there are indeed counter-rotating props (!) in the slotted fins which helps to explain the good control when hovering...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501856

RC gear is a lot smaller than when I were a lad...

dp
04-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Here's another vid from the same guy:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/2237120/amazing_new_freestyle/

Amazing.

DICKEYBIRD
04-17-2009, 03:10 PM
which helps to explain the good control when hovering...I can't tell you how many hours of stick time it takes to have the type of control that gentleman has of his models.

The massive strides in electric motor/battery efficiency and the reduction in size & weight of the r/c gear is fantastic stuff but the skills and hand-eye coordination required to perform that little video is indeed awesome.

Circlip
04-17-2009, 03:18 PM
But if you look at some of the displays using "Conventially Shaped" airframes on the same site ???????????????

Regards Ian.

Evan
04-17-2009, 03:34 PM
RC gear is a lot smaller than when I were a lad...


SO, how many of you flew a model using a rubber band powered escapement?

How many of you still have the escapement and receiver? :D

topct
04-17-2009, 04:19 PM
A good pilot, and "Gyros".

DICKEYBIRD
04-17-2009, 04:35 PM
Evan, Mom threw out my Babcock escapement and Aerotrol rcvr about 40 yrs ago.:)

Circlip, I was referring to the 2nd video dp linked to. That's some awesome flying.

Timleech
04-17-2009, 04:43 PM
SO, how many of you flew a model using a rubber band powered escapement?

How many of you still have the escapement and receiver? :D

Neither, I did build a receiver with an ?? XFG1 gas-filled triode ??, for a boat not a plane. Never completely finished the model, though :(

Tim

John Stevenson
04-17-2009, 05:16 PM
Still got the rubber band :rolleyes:

Some years ago I was sorting some boxes out and found my old single channel R/C control, probably one of the early transistor models all it could do was switch a relay.

Switch a relay ??? the light went on.
So while Gert was out I put this across the back of the doorbell went across to my mates garage opposite and waited.

Gert came back, put the shopping away and settled down.
Ding Dong.
She comes to the door and no one there, settles back down.

Ding Dong.

Rushes to the door, thows it open, no one there.

This went on for a few minutes and in the end she was hiding behind the curtains waiting to pounce.

Ding Dong, rips the door open, no one there , just going to close the door and it went Ding Dong follows by peals of maniacal laughter from across the street.

In true Queen Victoria style "She was not amused "


I was though :D

.

Evan
04-17-2009, 06:00 PM
Practicing for a career as a monk, eh?

G1K
04-17-2009, 06:56 PM
Found a copy - there are indeed counter-rotating props (!) in the slotted fins which helps to explain the good control when hovering...

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501856

RC gear is a lot smaller than when I were a lad...


I looked at the pictures on the RCGroups site and I only see one prop on that model. Where is the second one?

Ryan

BillH
04-17-2009, 07:27 PM
A good pilot, and "Gyros".
I highly doubt the gyro's. It's all about the CG being correct in 3 planes, not just one or two like most airplanes.

topct
04-17-2009, 08:11 PM
I highly doubt the gyro's. It's all about the CG being correct in 3 planes, not just one or two like most airplanes.

Unless someone can document proof that he is not using gyros in the missile I have to believe that he is. It would be a perfect application of what is available.

It's those tiny wings and how finite he must control them. An assist would be really cool. And make it flyable.

G1K
04-17-2009, 08:15 PM
I wager there are no gyros used. Look again at the pics on the RCGroups site.

Ryan

dp
04-17-2009, 08:33 PM
There are complete plans on the RC BBS:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501856

And it's just a bunch of flat foam glued up with a motor, single non-counter-rotating prop, and servos. No gyros.

One guy suggested using a motor from a CDROM. They're light weight and powerful for their size, and pretty much free at the local reclaimed PC marts.

I saw a video of a small RC airplane that was just a hoop of fiber rod, a round sheet of dacron, and elevons for control. It was about 12" in diameter. The prop is behind the leading edge of the hoop.

Barrington
04-18-2009, 04:25 PM
I looked at the pictures on the RCGroups site and I only see one prop on that model. Where is the second one?

Ryan

Apologies - my mistake.:( I skimmed the (27 page) thread too fast and saw references to a counter-rotating prop, but didn't realise the discussion had turned to another model... (an XFY-1 POGO)

Cheers

gnm109
04-18-2009, 04:55 PM
SO, how many of you flew a model using a rubber band powered escapement?

How many of you still have the escapement and receiver? :D


I still have my Babcock rubber-driven escapements. One large one for rudder, elevator and engine electrical contact and a small one for ignition high and low. Not only that I still have the plans to my original Babcock Breezy R/C monoplane.

I no longer have the transmitter and receiver but the first one I had used a transmitter with a 1-1.2 V filament battery and a 67-1/2 volt plate battery for the transmitter. The receiver used a Raytheon gas tube and a 5K ohm relay with similar voltages. Aside from interference on 27.5 mHz, which was minimal until the advent of CB radios, the system worked very well. IIRC, I built it from kits.

One pulse and hold was right rudder. Two pulses and hold was left rudder. Three pulses and hold was up elevator and one blip and release wold change speeds on the engine. Nice.

Later on, several companies came out with tone-modulated superhetrodyne receivers with reeds for frequency discrimination that permitted multiple controls. They were jerky but worked fairly well if you could insulate the receiver from vibration.

I ultimately got a Ham license so that I could fly on 6 meters (53.5) mHz, although I'm going to buy a modenn standard radio since they are so much better now. I like the electric motors for R/C since I can fly in my back yard.

gnm109
04-18-2009, 04:59 PM
Unless someone can document proof that he is not using gyros in the missile I have to believe that he is. It would be a perfect application of what is available.

It's those tiny wings and how finite he must control them. An assist would be really cool. And make it flyable.

Model aircraft gyros are getting to be common now. My son uses them on his model aircraft to stabilize flight for his video camera.

http://www.futaba-rc.com/radioaccys/futm0830.html

RancherBill
04-18-2009, 05:37 PM
That looks really neat.

It's something that always been of interest, but....

Now I have the time. What would an entry level setup cost to do that? Just a ball park budget figure. I'd go to the local hobby shop to actually buy. I would imagine that it's a transmitter, receiver, motor, motor speed control and 2 servos.

In the video link (http://airtoimedia.nl/web/upload/JurgenHeilig/Rocketman.wmv) that was a the link Barrington posted it is much much higher resolution and it looks, to my uneducated eyes, that it 'flies' like a plane. He always has the 'red' fins up as the tail.

dp
04-18-2009, 06:43 PM
A cheap entry set is the stuff sold at Harbor Freight. A simple airplane that can take some rough handling, and the rc controller. Short range, of course, but all the bits needed to get introduced to the sport inexpensively.

My son jumped in by buying a helicopter. He needed flying lessons and so far has spent far more on training software and dual time on this toy than the toy itself, and the toy was over $400! :rolleyes:

davidh
04-18-2009, 06:47 PM
i think you would be shocked to find that it would be nearly a grand for something decent. . . . . (that was a few years ago)

i absolutely could not land even a trainer with a 60" wing span. tried and tried and tried. . . then got a smaller trainer. same problem. i got to the point i thought i was gonna have a heart attack from anxity.

i would just give up and nose dive the plane into the deep grass/weeds to relieve the tension. . . . .

sold it all. now i need to try a real plane. . . . .

Al Messer
04-18-2009, 07:18 PM
Evan, all the models I successfully flew were rubber band powered!

gnm109
04-18-2009, 07:34 PM
A comlete outfit with batteries, electric motor, model airplane kit, transmitter and receiver can go for at little as $150 but really good quality items are $500 to $1,000. With a little practice you'll be up and away.

dp
04-18-2009, 07:58 PM
Much cheaper. And the quality is more than needed for casual indoor flying:

http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=airplane

The electronics can be re-used on home-built flying projects after the original aircraft has been battered and broken. It is quite enough to let one give it a go without a lot of expense.

dp
04-18-2009, 08:05 PM
now i need to try a real plane. . . . .

That is an interesting thing for me. I've owned and flown a variety real airplanes and flight simulators for airframes I'll never fly in real life (747, for example) and have never had much trouble with the flight cycle. But I've never ever landed an RC plane, or even achieved stable flight with one for long. Put me in the front seat and I'm fine. I've even crashed planes in simulators that show the plane from outside as an RC control pilot would see it; within minutes I'm in a death spiral :)

I imagine if I had an RC plane with a virtual reality cockpit and just the primary instruments I'd be fine.

BillH
04-18-2009, 08:21 PM
Unless someone can document proof that he is not using gyros in the missile I have to believe that he is. It would be a perfect application of what is available.

It's those tiny wings and how finite he must control them. An assist would be really cool. And make it flyable.

I am a cheat, I used to be big into the hobby, that little sidewinder is no different than the people who get regular indoor airplanes to hover on their props. All about the CG...

BillH
04-18-2009, 08:25 PM
As far as the real thing vs R/C...
An r/c pilot makes for an excellent real world pilot as they ALREADY know how an airplane flies and what does what. These are the guys that can solo in 10 hours.
Real pilots have NO advantage over anyone else learning to fly R/C besides some background knowledge. R/C skill set has an additional one real world pilots have no need for, flying their airplane from the ground by sight only!

Made in China has significantly lowered the prices of the R/C hobby, one just has to take a look of the cost of a good quality brushless DC motor and speed control and how much they have come down in price. What used to cost 400$ for a setup now is under 100$.

Evan
04-18-2009, 09:43 PM
Check out the model aircraft section at dealextreme.com . They have all sorts of cool stuff including helicopters so small they sit in the palm of your hand. Prices for a 2 channel system start at around $20 to $30 and go up from there. They have some of the really nice ones for under $200 and they also sell the complete simulator training system that includes the trainer transmitter and software for pretty cheap.

They sell this helicopter for $104 complete with everything and ready to fly.

http://www.twf-sz.com/english/products.asp?prodid=0194

BillH
04-18-2009, 09:47 PM
Check out the model aircraft section at dealextreme.com . They have all sorts of cool stuff including helicopters so small they sit in the palm of your hand. Prices for a 2 channel system start at around $20 to $30 and go up from there. They have some of the really nice ones for under $200 and they also sell the complete simulator training system that includes the trainer transmitter and software for pretty cheap.

They sell this helicopter for $104 complete with everything and ready to fly.

http://www.twf-sz.com/english/products.asp?prodid=0194
For 200$ I bought a blade CX2 helicopter, comes with a 5 channel 2.4ghz spread spectrum radio, and lithium ion battery. Has a gyro, it is a counter rotating job, very easy to fly and an amazing deal for the price.

dp
04-18-2009, 10:15 PM
When I was in Italy a couple years ago the street vendors were flying those palm-sized helicopters in every mall and wide spot. I got beaned more than once so I think they're flown with a bit of national pride :)

danlb
04-19-2009, 12:08 AM
Much cheaper. And the quality is more than needed for casual indoor flying:

http://search.harborfreight.com/cpisearch/web/search.do?keyword=airplane

The electronics can be re-used on home-built flying projects after the original aircraft has been battered and broken. It is quite enough to let one give it a go without a lot of expense.


A word of caution... the HF models with two propellers turn, rise and fall by changing prop speed in one or both props. A 1 mph breeze and they become unmanageable.

The more expensive ones appear to have proper control surfaces.

Dan

oldtiffie
04-19-2009, 12:19 AM
Or............

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Road_Rocket1.jpg

Evan
04-19-2009, 01:14 AM
Time for a little peek at my new solar telescope. All I need now is some sun...

http://ixian.ca/pics6/skywinder.jpg

dp
04-19-2009, 02:15 AM
And a blast shield :)

Edit: Come to think of it, you might want to throw a tarp over it when the sun comes out so your neighbors don't call in the Mounties!

Evan
04-19-2009, 02:06 PM
Naturally, now that it is ready for testing it's raining and is forecast to do so for a while.

Paul Alciatore
04-19-2009, 03:22 PM
That's really neat. I wondered how he did the counter rotating props (gears or two motors) till I saw it was only one.

I never had the $$$ for RC stuff when I was flying model airplanes so I did the control line types. One thing I found was the size and difficulty of control were inversely proportional. The smallest planes were the hardest to fly. They went faster, turned faster, and got to the ground a lot quicker. The larger models were a lot more forgiving of small mistakes. Of course, they too also augered in sooner or later. Unless the final flight ended with a boom.

I suspect flying a 747 or an Airbus would be the easiest of all.

Evan
04-19-2009, 05:40 PM
My understanding is that the 747 is very unforgiving. With that much mass it takes a long time to respond to inputs and you have to stay way ahead of the aircraft. It also must be flown precisely by the numbers, climb just a little bit too steep and you are in a stall. That said there are some pretty good pilots. Flying into Frankfurt in a 747 the pilot nearly stood it on it's wing tip turning onto final. I would say we were at a 45* bank angle for a short while. Because he was also in a steep decent we didn't pull the gees that would normally go with that amount of bank, about 1.5 g.

BillH
04-19-2009, 07:56 PM
My understanding is that the 747 is very unforgiving. With that much mass it takes a long time to respond to inputs and you have to stay way ahead of the aircraft. It also must be flown precisely by the numbers, climb just a little bit too steep and you are in a stall. That said there are some pretty good pilots. Flying into Frankfurt in a 747 the pilot nearly stood it on it's wing tip turning onto final. I would say we were at a 45* bank angle for a short while. Because he was also in a steep decent we didn't pull the gees that would normally go with that amount of bank, about 1.5 g.

I can't speak of the 747, although I was able to get some time in a 757 full motion sim, and at the time I did it, I was a student pilot with 17 hours in a C172. The damn thing was easier to fly than a C172, in fact it was a dream to fly. Later on I got to fly a real Citation CJ1... Again, incredibly easy to fly and very much fun. Things just happen faster, just need to stay ahead by planning things much earlier.
It's all just the same ol crap. Some airplanes fly faster and higher up than others.