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ohiodeere
04-20-2009, 09:38 PM
It is just to hard to manufacture in this country anymore.
You know, as hard as it is to make a living, keep the business open, keep the people employed and just pay the bills in these days. OSHA walks in the door! and of course they were called by a disgruntled employee we had to release for coming to work intoxicated everyday and posing a problem to himself and others.
osha sited us for violations on our milling machines. horizontal machines in specific.
they require that a lockout tagout be implemented when changing the tooling. this would require locking out the main disconnect of power to the machine.
they require guards be inplace to prevent the operator from coming near the rotating cutters.
they require other options to apply tapping fluid instead of the operator using a squirt bottle next to the rotating tap.
they fail to relize that it is in our best opinion to not have anyone hurt because of the cost outright to the company.
they require us to pay $4700 by May 7th.
they require us to pay for the ANSI documentation to educate us on the rules they use..
Government entities enforce the rules but you must buy the rules to know them?

My opinion of this socialistic government is - they just want us to disappear. rather than work with us to avoid problems they just want us to pay up and fix it or go to jail for negligence.

I can't wait until retirement!

by the way these are large 6", 8" horizontal mills we're using. with approx 72" quill travel.
I'd like to see that design of a guard?
also they noted that "the operator uses paper to feel for close dimension" this puts him in harms way....

tony ennis
04-20-2009, 09:54 PM
It's an overzealous nanny-state government office doing it's best to protect the citizens. OSHA doesn't have to make a profit, pay employees, or bother with insurance, rent, or any other type of overhead. And neither do their congressional masters.

In short, they mean well but haven't a clue.

Carld
04-20-2009, 09:55 PM
I don't know how any shop can do work and follow OSHA rules. How about blocking all entry to the shop and forcing everyone to enter the office and if OSHA or the insurance inspectors come around just shut the shop down untill they leave.

dp
04-20-2009, 10:00 PM
I wonder how many jobs go overseas because of this intrusion. We'd have lost WWI and WWII if these rules were in place then.

Robo
04-20-2009, 10:20 PM
So the inspector wouldn't work with you guys on that stuff? Some of there wishes are ridiculous IMO....they make it so you can't work.

Carld
04-20-2009, 10:29 PM
You might want to check with a lawyer that has dealt with them.

JS
04-20-2009, 10:39 PM
Interesting ...

Actually there is something called the Federal Registry for all..Federal LAWS Regulations statues etc ...and they are required by law that they be posted / published there . If it is not posted ....How can it be enforceable ?


Get a good lawyer and tell them where to put it .

x39
04-20-2009, 10:40 PM
OSHA and their ilk are nothing short of parasites, sucking the life out of this nation.

Rustybolt
04-20-2009, 10:41 PM
I wonder how many jobs go overseas because of this intrusion. We'd have lost WWI and WWII if these rules were in place then.
__________________
All the manufacturing jobs people complain we send overseas.

I was going to start another company, just doing custom plasma cutting. I'm having serious reservations now.


When are people going to realize the government is not your friend.

Fasttrack
04-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Well, in some cases the government IS your friend. Government is a neccessary evil and OSHA is also neccessary.

That being said, I feel sorry for you! That is complete crap. I'm all about being safe but there is a difference between being safe and being anal retentive. Those kind of stuck-up pricks should have to try making a living doing an honest day's work and then see how they feel about all the regulations they try to impose. Good luck getting it sorted out.

KiddZimaHater
04-20-2009, 11:13 PM
CNC Mill door interlocks are
THE WORST !!!!!
How are you supposed to see an edge finder thru dinged-up and scarred plexiglass windows?
Stupid idea.
I disable my door interlocks right away.

rockrat
04-20-2009, 11:17 PM
Get a lawyer, most of that is covered under managerial education and educational guarding. That is how our old shop worked it out but we had to work it out with them.

The key is that you must have a little class for each and every operator and they must sign off that they were in the class for the full time.

Outside of that, I hear your pain. Had an incident in another state with the old company that happened when an operator, who was told, then wrote up and then given paid time off for polishing a part while wearing a glove and ignoring the rules. Well, he kept doing this, the glove got caught, he got hurt and sued the place. Last I heard they were still fighting it all.

Good luck
rock~

RobbieKnobbie
04-20-2009, 11:34 PM
Something doesn't sound right there.

I've escorted OSHA inspectors around shops I've worked in and they've never objected to normal setup operations like edge finding and oiling up a tap.

It's been my experience that when an inspector starts busting stones (like the list in the OP) it's because there are a lot of other problems. A clean, organized, reasonably safe shop doesn't typically get nailed for silly stuff like that.

My experience anyway.

wierdscience
04-20-2009, 11:48 PM
You need less than 7 employees;)

Richard-TX
04-21-2009, 12:11 AM
You need less than 7 employees;)

That would fix it.

doctor demo
04-21-2009, 12:12 AM
Well, in some cases the government IS your friend. Government is a neccessary evil and OSHA is also neccessary.

.
Osha and Cal-Osha should rot in Hell.

About one tenth of the Government is neccessary the rest is a diesease.

Steve

danlb
04-21-2009, 12:28 AM
While it does seem quite likely overkill, OSHA exists because some shops pay no attention at all to safety. Rumor has it that just about every shop has one of more people who are missing fingers.

The last time I had to deal with OSHA, we were instructed to treat the inspector like royalty. It paid off. We were admonished to wash our hands before eating to get rid of the lead from soldering, and that was all.

Did someone piss the inspector off?


Dan

Dawai
04-21-2009, 05:16 AM
Yeah, after I got gassed, burned my lungs.. Osha sent a inspector-monitor to have a employee wear in a clean environment part of the plant.

They cited a electrical contractor I worked for having electrical tape on drop cords.. it was colored phasing tape showing the vehicle it was supposed to be assigned to, and saftey marking showing last inspection date. The fine held.

Screw Osha.. they are too involved, they cite companies for complaints and let others go free. Seeing a jlg with the wheels taken off, and welded to the top of a crane was enough for me. Special circumstances rules for special job requirements. When they swung the six large tool boxes over my head held by a choker around the handles only? I left that job. I jerked two handles off to show the GF before I left. He actually suggested I pay for them. Blind? or-and stupid.

It's all politics, you are on the losing end if you want to make money. One man work, other man watch for saftey guy.. Dupont stratedgy.

Liger Zero
04-21-2009, 07:18 AM
OSHA can be a lifesaver, there are some evil pricks out there who care nothing of worker safety... Spinco Metal Products, Avalanche Fabrication, Manhattan Packaging and Polymer Products are the big ones around here.

1) At Spinco I was expected to run parts through concentrated nitric acid without gloves or splash gear because there was no money in the budget for replacements.

2) Avalanche... refused to vent the "Timesaver" widebelt sander/grinder. Doncha know grinding dust is harmless it's just aluminum it gets absorbed into the body! That and the flood-wash tumbler that makes a huge racket... in the electrcial room. Just tack some sheets over the panels and transformer and hose (!) it down once a day.

3) Manhatten Packaging... little startup company that fell flat on its face. No guards, exposed wiring, hot liquid polymer, no gloves, fumes... They sent three of us to the hospital because delrin/PVC co-extrusion works on paper, not in practice.

4) Polymer Products: Operators are expected to work in 100 degree heat all day, can't walk away from the press to get water nor have a Nalgene bottle at the press. Also: the presses are rigged in permenent auto mode... not semi-auto. You have to time it just right. Reach in as the mold opens and closes... remove up to eight products and place eight inserts before the press closes on your hands.


I'm not afraid of reprecussions so I'm telling what I've seen. These are the situations OSHA is supposed to protect against.

Telling me I can't squirt oil onto a cutter that's just ass. Telling me I have to change types of solder because lead fumes are nasty... pure ass.

OSHA is supposed to be making sure I have my goggles on, my safety shoes on, hearing protection when I need it, lockout-tagout and issue guidelines and rules to keep people from doing dumb **** like putting a flood-tumbler in the electrical room. That's it. Not telling me how to braze or machine.

x39
04-21-2009, 07:22 AM
The last time I had to deal with OSHA, we were instructed to treat the inspector like royalty. It paid off.
While I understand its the price of doing business today, a sad commentary just the same.

Mcgyver
04-21-2009, 08:07 AM
Also: the presses are rigged in permenent auto mode... not semi-auto. You have to time it just right. Reach in as the mold opens and closes... remove up to eight products and place eight inserts before the press closes on your hands.

.


really? that seems bizarre, I don't know about injection presses but every punch press I've seen had either guards (auto feed) doors or buttons the operators hands had to be on before it would cycle. Operators having to stick there hands in a press that is auto cycling seems incredible, at least on this continent....if that's happening then that's where the OSHA should be concentrating their efforts, not on some guy tapping

Kinda like the cops are around here, there's missing children, unsolved murders and my neighbor's new house under construction has been broken into 4 times (materials, appliances, etc).....but the police cant get to it because they're fully deployed with radar :D




About one tenth of the Government is necessary the rest is a disease.


I would agree with that, maybe a different percentage, but in principal yes. The massiveness of government at all levels carries with it a massive cost most people seem oblivious of. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, personal, corporate, real estate, sales, whatever tax, its all a burden on the people - most who are i think are economically clueless - so sadly there's little to call to reform as they only seem to think of the cost of government as being their taxes. This may be our greatest challenge; the numbers swilling at the public trough and the economic drag and crowding out effect that results from it

J Tiers
04-21-2009, 08:45 AM
Kinda like the cops are around here, there's missing children, unsolved murders and my neighbor's new house under construction has been broken into 4 times (materials, appliances, etc).....but the police cant get to it because they're fully deployed with radar :D



I would agree with that, maybe a different percentage, but in principal yes. The massiveness of government at all levels carries with it a massive cost most people seem oblivious of. It doesn't matter where the money comes from, personal, corporate, real estate, sales, whatever tax, its all a burden on the people - most who are i think are economically clueless - so sadly there's little to call to reform as they only seem to think of the cost of government as being their taxes. This may be our greatest challenge; the numbers swilling at the public trough and the economic drag and crowding out effect that results from it


There are days, more of them as time goes on, that I believe government is deliberately trying to enforce BS, and ignore large violations and violent crime, specifically and pointedly for the purpose of causing an outcry for "more laws and more police"........

All democratic governments slide gradually toward greater government control and finally dictatorships.... it is the nature of the beast, as we see occurring now.

The general reason is that they work so well that the citizens become literally stupid... i.e. in a stupor, lulled by the easy life under a democratic government. They forget their responsibilities, concentrating on their "entitlements" instead.

it isn't the hated presidents you need to watch, it is the popular ones...... the masses call for free bread, and accept repression to get it.

ckelloug
04-21-2009, 10:38 AM
There is some hemming and hawing about being forced to buy documentation to be compliant with law. The fifth Circuit Court ruled that any private documents become public domain when written into law but their ruling only formally applies in the 5th circuit jurisdiction. Unfortunately, some areas and codes still don't want to believe that.

The relevant case law is: Veeck v. the Southern Building Code Congress

see

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Veeck_v._Southern_Building_Code_Congress_Int'l,_In c.

aboard_epsilon
04-21-2009, 12:19 PM
HE HE ..MY bridgeport step pulley once had gaurds over the holes for the step pulleYs due to our version of OSHA.

ALL THE BEST.MARKJ

gwinn
04-21-2009, 12:25 PM
Dude:

You have a lot of rights you need to be aware of:
Don't pay the fine until you appeal, in writing, within 15 days, to the area OSHA director. Simply say that you want to explain your position face to face.

You will get an informal hearing scheduled. You will claim that you are 1. a small manufacturer 2. have a spotless record 3. Have made a good faith effort and 4. have never been cited before. Ask for a 75% reduction in the fine because the rules allow it based on 1-4 above. Agree to pay $1,000.

Show good faith by taking pictures of improvements you have made.

Explain why the use of some machine guards will or could cause a greater hazard, if that is actually true.

Work with them. Explain your case and be firm.

$1000 max. Do it.
\
All of these "appeal processes" and "fine adjustments" are available on the OSHA page - it is not a mystery even if it is a PITB.

Good luck.


gwindt

mwechtal
04-21-2009, 12:37 PM
Interesting situation we used to have here. My wife used to work for the local Toshiba plant before it closed down. They NEVER got an OSHA inspection. She was told that it was because they were a Japanese company, and the US wanted foreign companies to run plants here, so no inspections. Thankfully, they didn't seem to abuse the employees too much with unsafe conditions.

They also got away with requiring the employees to report even if there was a state of emergency declared. This actually happened in the winter a few times, and people could get fired for not reporting. They probably got away with that because they were the highest paying employer in the county.

DR
04-21-2009, 01:46 PM
When I started in business years ago I invited my state's version of OSHA in for an inspection. I found them to be helpful and reasonable. Never had any problems with them.

I'm sure the OP's issues can be worked out to a satisfactory settlement. In my experience trying to work with the powers that be can be more productive than trying to fight them.

Liger Zero
04-21-2009, 03:05 PM
really? that seems bizarre, I don't know about injection presses but every punch press I've seen had either guards (auto feed) doors or buttons the operators hands had to be on before it would cycle. Operators having to stick there hands in a press that is auto cycling seems incredible, at least on this continent....if that's happening then that's where the OSHA should be concentrating their efforts, not on some guy tapping

Kinda like the cops are around here, there's missing children, unsolved murders and my neighbor's new house under construction has been broken into 4 times (materials, appliances, etc).....but the police cant get to it because they're fully deployed with radar :D




Yes exactly!

With an injection mold machine you can dial the motion speeds up and down, this place ran exactly at the quoted cycle time operator be damned. They'd set the speeds to the cycle would take exactly 45 seconds (for example).

I'm not sure but I think they changed hands, they might not be in operation anymore, they were struggling badly when I was there that's why they were doing stuff like that.

Sad really, that one has to do stuff like that in order to "compete." There are other ways to beat China, you can't win the labor-cost game. Eventually you find out minimum wage brings in minimum-intelligence/skill workers who actually drive costs up and cause more accidents.

It was stuff like this that drove out of plastic and into machining. By and large metal-working is far far safer than the various types of plastic manufacturing I've seen or participated in... or at least the employers I've been at. There have been a few (no acid gloves) that were unsafe but for the most part the plants I've been in are better from a safety standpoint.

Bob_W
04-21-2009, 05:26 PM
If you haven't seen this before you shouild like it, no OSHA problems here :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMOBqRVDOYQ&feature=related

Bob

clutch
04-21-2009, 05:48 PM
The OP's problem with his mill sounds pure nuts but maybe he drew an inspector w/o experience.

I have a lathe that was at GM Saginaw, some one got crazy.

http://wess.freeshell.org/clausing_6900.jpg

Look to the left of spindle housing, yup, a Reese E-stop button and a control panel on the back side.

One strategy to thwart the enforcement guy is to invite the safety and training side over to look your shop over and offer suggestions. Anything they spot that could be a problem, you have a grace period on as long as you fix it.

I sat in on a pre-inspection conference where the guy that called them in was all but identified to management. He was complaining that a 600 ton forming press was closing on it's own.

I went out with the HR guy and the OSHA guy as the technical guy. I spoke to the operator and determined that the press was drifting after a long period, like a break and the cam switches on a static reel were hitting the press closed cam as the cam came around the wrong way. Poor control design and improper setting was causing the press to close.

Obviously, the problem was corrected but the guy that reported it could have found himself in hot water if I hadn't figure out that there really was a problem.

Clutch

saltmine
04-21-2009, 07:41 PM
My last job, with the County shop, I supervised five other guys. I also did a lot of the repair and maintenance work that needed to get done around the shop.
Unfortunately, the "big shots" transferred a maintenance man from building maintenance to "health & safety". Wanting to be a "good boy" he quickly read up on all of the OSHA regulations and insurance department snake oil.

Suddenly, we found ourselves wearing "bump" caps, safety glasses, back supports, steel toed boots, rubber gloves, and ear plugs.

Incidence of neck injuries went up dramatically, from guys bumping their heads under cars and trucks (yeah, the "bump" cap makes you 2" taller)
Each guy went through 20-30 pairs of rubber gloves a day. Safety glasses were getting broken long before they needed cleaning (@ $5 apiece it was getting costly). Back supports were getting "lost" almost as quickly as we could get new ones.

Productivity dropped 50%.

Now, long after I retired, since they wouldn't listen to my arguments, They're "out of money" and over budget for the fiscal year.

I guess all of that safety paraphernalia costs finally added up.

Amazingly....The department supervisor still makes more than the Governor of the state....I wonder why?

John Stevenson
04-21-2009, 08:37 PM
You need less than 7 employees;)

And if you have 14, seven are employed by Dayshift Inc. and seven are employed by Nightshift Inc. :rolleyes:

oldtiffie
04-21-2009, 09:05 PM
If you had to have less than 7 with 14, I'd suggest it might be Morning shift Inc., Afternoon shift Inc. and Morning shift Inc.

I guess that any others would be "Management" and the OSHO guy - who all seem to be of no value and do nothing hence are shiftless and of no account and so aren't counted.

Just what is the HO component of the OSHO guy's job description? HO has "other meanings" - and how do you measure or rate his productivity and tool performance. And wouldn't he need three pairs of latex gloves? (For 11 "fingers"?) And where is it mentioned in the OSHO legislation, regulations and "manual" - and how often is he/she (gotta be PC here) subject to a "performance review"?.

Does that HO provision make the shop a Ho-house?

Is Santa Claus covered as he seems to work in a Ho (ho, ho) house?

If you think that working in a shop that gets "bitten" with the OSHO bug is bad enough, let me assure you that it is nothing compared to a Military or its Department - and especially its bases/establishments - that "get the bug". It is pretty well unworkable until it dies down and the next "fad" or "in thing" comes along. There are ALWAYS at least two of these sorts of thing going on. Asbestos? PC? "Efficiency Reviews" etc. etc.

A real Ho house is run for and by the "needs" of what are the functional parts in a Ho House. Quite some "occupational hazard and disease" risks there!!

Come to think of it - a lot of shops are pretty well like that!!

QED

MTNGUN
04-21-2009, 09:06 PM
OSHA and their ilk are nothing short of parasites, sucking the life out of this nation.

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am mostly thankful for OSHA. In fact, I don't think OSHA does as much as they should.

I worked in the chemical industry, and mining, in the days before OSHA, for a poorly managed company. Fatal accidents were a common occurrence, not to mention losing arms, eyesight, what have you. The company's attitude was "if you aren't happy with workplace safety, hit the road." They didn't care if there were many accidents because the workman's comp system is rigged to favor the employer.

No way do I want to return to the pre-OSHA way of doing business.

Do I agree with every single OSHA rule ? No. OSHA is not perfect. Try writing rules that work for every single situation -- you can't do it -- but that's what OSHA is supposed to do.

Last I heard, there was an exception to the lockout rule, that you didn't need to lock out if you were in direct control of the machine -- that is, if the on/off button was in your reach and in your line of sight. That should exempt most machining operations (some companies still require their employees to lockout anyway, just to err on the safe side).

Machine guards are generally a good idea, but they aren't always feasible. OSHA knows this, and again, there are exceptions to the guard rule. Once example would be a moving conveyor belt with many possible pinch points. It isn't feasible to guard every single pinch point, but OSHA is willing to overlook that if you install an emergency shut-off cord along the side of the conveyor belt.

My suggestion is to work with the inspector and offer constructive alternatives, instead of being confrontational.

Put together a written safety plan, with written rules, addressing the issues that OSHA raised. Go over the rules with the employees and have them sign a piece of paper saying they understand and they agree to follow the safety procedures.

I use guards on my home shop lathe and mill, and I'm sure most of the people on this forum do the same. Not 100% of the time, mind you, but they are there, and I use them when it is practical. If you make the guards available, and if your written safety plan says that employees should use the guards whenever it is practical, and if the employees sign off on that plan, then your ass is pretty much covered.

oldtiffie
04-21-2009, 09:55 PM
Thanks MTNGUN.

Good sensible reply.

There will always be some "little Hitlers" in regulatory roles - but they are usually in the minority - and most just get on and do their jobs as well as the "system" will allow them.

They have to deal with a lot of confrontational people who have that have a "They're not gunna/make me .................... 'coz I do it MY way" attitude who should be up high on a tree branch thumping their chests and hootin' and roarin'.

Put the "Hitlers" with the "apes" and you have a real problem.

OSHO is generally common sense.

I've seen often enough those who just can't stand OSHO - until "it" happens to them and all of a sudden the local ER department, Lawyers and the OSHO system become VERY important to them.

The only thing worse than having to meet OSHO requirements is having to defend or justify yourself in the case where you have not or are alleged to have not "complied".

wierdscience
04-21-2009, 10:07 PM
And if you have 14, seven are employed by Dayshift Inc. and seven are employed by Nightshift Inc. :rolleyes:

And all carrying "out of service signs":D

gunbuilder
04-21-2009, 10:25 PM
OSHA is in the neighborhood. Local grain elevator had a fatal accident, 23 year old employee was killed by a forklift. OSHA didn't help that guy.

I am not aware that OSHA has helped me, but maybe. I wish they could have done something a few times. Like the Plant Manager Moron running a gasoline forklift inside the plant with no ventilation. Oh well.

If you are a boss and OSHA guy is an idiot, I feel for you. If you are an employee forced to work at a dangerous job with no PPE, I feel for you too.

Thanks,
Paul

doctor demo
04-21-2009, 10:36 PM
I probably sugar coated My first post to this thd. but You get My drift.
People that don't have comman sense are going to get hurt working, no matter how many guards or manuals full of directives or instructions provided them. Letter openers are to dangerous for the hard core osha problem seeker/enforcers.

D.O.T , ICC., CHP , City Police, State Police , County Sheriff , FBI , ATF,
Cal OSHA , OSHA , Building Inspector, HUD , Cal Trans , Department of Justice
E P A , to name a few. I hope I have not overlooked anybody , Iwouldn't want theiir feelings hurt.


Sales tax ,income tax, use tax, property tax , capital gains tax, luxury tax, vechicle registration tax, sin tax (on alky and tobacco) personal property tax
Federal-State-City-County road tax , Puc tax, and however many more that I have forgot.


LET'S MAKE THE GOVERNMENT BIGGER TO PROTECT US and we can call it a PROTECTION TAX, oh no wait.... We can't call it that the Mob allready has that one.

If there was a tax on giving Yourself high blood pressure over a topic/thread I would have to apply for aid to pay it Mine is so high right now.


Steve

barts
04-21-2009, 11:04 PM
For those of you complaining about all those regulations, read up on what life was like for workers w/o any health or safety regs... or just look how many died of black lung, asbestos-related diseases, silicosis, etc.


Exploring the Dangerous Trades: The Autobiography of Alice Hamilton, M.D.

From an Amazon review:


This is the autobiography of the first woman faculty member at Harvard Medical School; the first doctor specializing in occupational health in any country; and the person who coined the term "industrial hygienist". The stories she tells about occupational exposures in her time are ghastly, but what is more interesting is her connection to the progressive politics of her time (she was a socialist and pacifist and opposed America's entry into the First World War). Also interesting is her incredible longevity (she lived to be 101) and her effect on generations of health professionals, labor activists and feminists. She was teaching at Harvard in the 1890s, worked at Hull House with Jane Addams, inspired Eleanor Roosevelt in the 1930s, then lived long enough to sign a letter of protest against the Vietnam War in 1964. If you know an occupational health professional or union officer, and worry they will burn out in this current dark era, give them this book.

Tinkerer
04-22-2009, 01:19 AM
The scariest phase that can be uttered. "We from the Government and we're here to HELP" :eek:.

oldtiffie
04-22-2009, 02:02 AM
Given that so many HSM-ers - both "working" and retired etc. - often work alone without seeing or being seen by anyone else - I'd have thought that pro-active "Safety" would have been a matter of course.

The risks are just too high to do or be otherwise.

If I haven't got my concentration right before I go into my shop, I stay out of it. If I lose it when I'm in the shop or get distracted, I either switch off the process and wait until concentration is restored or else I just close the shop and walk out. I absolutely will not get into a conversation while a machine is running or while I am using a potentially dangerous "hand" process (off-hand grinding, drilling, welding, lifting, sharpening or using super-sharp chisels etc. etc.).

Some "hand" processes can be as great or more a danger than some "machine" processes.

I am amazed at how often people either turn their back on a running machine or just walk away from it and let it sort itself out. If that unattended machine "crashes" while you are involved in another risky activity, you are asking for trouble - on the second machine if you are distracted and the first (unattended) if you rush over to "do something quick".

I've seen the results of some of these - and most were "not pretty" and the "victim" (who was the cause of it) sometimes blamed himself or quite often anyone and everything but himself. But all the "blaming" fixed nothing.

Work-shops are all too often a "Hazardous Occupation" in a "hazardous environment".

If your knuckles drag on the ground - leave 'em there and keep 'em off hazardous machines.

Both I and OSHA are alive and well in my shop - and that is how I intend to keep it.

barts
04-22-2009, 02:43 AM
Both I and OSHA are alive and well in my shop - and that is how I intend to keep it.

After spending one Christmas doped up after scratching my cornea on a bush in my yard getting out of my jeep in the dark, I hear you on that - safety is #1. I often don't get into the shop after work because I'm too tired.

Liger Zero
04-22-2009, 07:27 AM
OSHA is in the neighborhood. Local grain elevator had a fatal accident, 23 year old employee was killed by a forklift. OSHA didn't help that guy.


OSHA can't control someone from hotrodding off a dock, coming to work stoned and driving into a rack of castings or drinking a liquid lunch and backing into the electrical switchboard.

OSHA does require you to have trained forklift operators (licensed), an in-house compliance tracking program, retraining, and a forklift inspection program.

Say they come in after this accident... they ask to see the license on file for this fellow and they say "OMG he didn't have one" then they ask to see the inspection log for the forklift and they say "ZOMG we don't have one" and then suddenly this grain elevator is in a huge amount of trouble.

They couldn't save this fellow, but an anal-root-canal by OSHA will either ensure that it doesn't happen there again by putting them out of operation or it'll seriously change some attitudes and culture there.

GKman
04-22-2009, 08:40 AM
Two guys across town from each other want to supply widgets to the meatpacking industry.

One checks OSHA requirements, contracts with an outside safety and compliance firm, buys decent equipment and gets a factory rep to do training.

Other guy buys some junk that will turn out widgets if you leave the guards off and hand feed it just right. Makes a guess at whats safe enough. Gets his brother-in-law who wired a chicken house once to get it up and running. Thinks he probably got it grounded OK. etc, etc.

Guy number two pockets some good profits by putting his people at risk plus puts people at number one's factory out of work with his underbidding. He thinks he's Jesse James the outlaw. I live in the town where Jesse got put out of business and if he were alive today he'd be one of those guys that reads the obituaries to find out when families will be at funerals so it's easier to rob their houses.

Unfortunately there will be some ill conceived regulations and bad inspectors but your competitor faces them too.

David Powell
04-22-2009, 08:48 AM
I am known for not exactly being an enthuiast for safety ( OVER) regulation. Our friends taught me to drive their full size steam driven steam roller when I was about 11, telling me in no uncertain terms" If you get it wrong you're dead". I have had a few mishaps through the years, paying painfully at times for my and other peoples mistakes. The one thing I will NOT do is to work anywhere on my own, or on my own with no return time specified by those with me who have gone on an errand. An incident when I went to work very early because I just had to get on with an urgent order, and found a co worker, who had stayed late the night before to finish another job on his own, lying in agony on the floor after smashing his foot ,completely cured me of any desire to work on my own without anyone else knowing of my whereabouts, and no one going to call at a predetermined time. Hope this saves someone unnecessary pain and suffering. David Powell.

oldtiffie
04-22-2009, 08:55 AM
$hit happens - as this did.

Poetic justice?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/workcoverinspector.jpg

vincemulhollon
04-22-2009, 12:45 PM
Productivity dropped 50%.


Now that is the real danger of over regulation. Nothing causes accidents like hurrying.

So, guys, just work twice as fast to keep up. Now THAT is really dangerous.

RancherBill
04-22-2009, 02:12 PM
$hit happens - as this did.

Poetic justice?

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/workcoverinspector.jpg

ROTFLMAO This will keep a smile on my face for days.:) :)

phatfred8
04-22-2009, 03:25 PM
Hey all,

Been following this thread for the last few days and yes I would have to agree with the orginator that the OSHA charges are BS. I run a home shop in the evening like many other on this site. I from time to time have people that help me with jobs that either need extra hands or just more hours to complete the job. If I am in the shop someone is there with me or the wife is in the house and she does come oout to check up on us or me. I worked for a few different shops in the past and my last employer before my current had a rule that there had to be 2 guys in the shop if work was being done. No if's an's or but's.

In December of '07 a local shop owner that I worked for 10 years ago had a accident. He was working at the shop on a old tractor welding on the frame. A welding spark lit the fuel tank and it exploded and he was thrown against a wall. It was a hour later that someone found him. He is still in a nursing home and suffered major brain damage. He was a very talented fabricator and also nice to work for. He has a long road ahead of him and his family. A rule of having someone there could have the a world of difference.

Like it has been said, have someone with you or check on you when working in the shop.

Brian

DR
04-22-2009, 04:13 PM
Hey all,

Been following this thread for the last few days and yes I would have to agree with the orginator that the OSHA charges are BS. I run a home shop in the evening like many other on this site. I from time to time have people that help me with jobs that either need extra hands or just more hours to complete the job. If I am in the shop someone is there with me or the wife is in the house and she does come oout to check up on us or me. I worked for a few different shops in the past and my last employer before my current had a rule that there had to be 2 guys in the shop if work was being done. No if's an's or but's.

In December of '07 a local shop owner that I worked for 10 years ago had a accident. He was working at the shop on a old tractor welding on the frame. A welding spark lit the fuel tank and it exploded and he was thrown against a wall. It was a hour later that someone found him. He is still in a nursing home and suffered major brain damage. He was a very talented fabricator and also nice to work for. He has a long road ahead of him and his family. A rule of having someone there could have the a world of difference.

Like it has been said, have someone with you or check on you when working in the shop.

Brian

Sorry to hear about your friend's accident.....but I don't understand your point.

If he had had someone check on him, OSHA to be specific, he'd probably still be in business. If the person checking on him had been you, both of you might be permanently disabled.

I also bet if OSHA had caught him in the act he'd have been levied a hefty fine. And, no doubt would have been complaining as the OP did.

This seems to be a perfect example of the value of state and federal safety guide lines. What do you suppose OSHA has to say about welding on vehicles with gas tanks?

saltmine
04-22-2009, 04:21 PM
Ah, I remember the "old days"....

Used to work in a muffler shop for a time in my mis-spent youth.

We had a radiator shop out back. I remember one of the radiator guys straddling a gas tank in the driveway, while soldering a leak in the filler neck.

The gas fumes went off, and propelled him back into the muffler pit, landing on top of the tank, flattening it. He wasn't hurt, but nobody came over to see if he was alright, we were rolling on the ground, hysterical with laughter.