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nheng
05-23-2009, 06:06 PM
It's a sad state of affairs in my old home state. This woman has 4 charges against her for killing a squirrel. I have little sympathy for squirrels as I have $1k total damage over several years from squirrels destroying both gabel end vents on our house. Most recently, squirrel bypassed one of the new (3 year old) vent and chewed an almost 3" hole thru mahoghany clapboard and plywood sheathing. In NJ, pellet guns are banned and believe it or not, slingshots must be registered.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521419,00.html?test=latestnews

saltmine
05-23-2009, 07:26 PM
Geez! I hope they don't catch up with me....When I was younger we used to go shooting ground squirrels with .22 caliber rifles....

She has four charges against her for killing one....OMG! I'd probably get the death penalty for the number I've wacked.

Orrin
05-23-2009, 08:04 PM
That's nothing. I heard the other day about some person who was arrested for putting something into a fish bowl and a few guppies died!

It wasn't in the USA.

Orrin

PSD KEN
05-23-2009, 08:28 PM
A mid sized airport has a Prairie Dog problem.(Fox News, I do not remember the location)

Enter the "Save the Prairie Dogs" nuts!!

Our motto here is "if it bothers or destroys, blast it!"

When I live in N. Ca. I probably set a record for skunks wasted, never asked permission or mentioned it.
A .22 CB does not attraction much attention.

Boucher
05-23-2009, 09:59 PM
A soft hearted friend had a squirrel chew up the wiring and computer on his Ford truck. He got it back after several days and several hundred dollars of repair bills. Turns out the squirrel is faster chewing them up than the Ford house is repairing them. Back to the shop. He borrowed my live trap and (this is the part I like) he carries the little burger to the otherside of town and turns it loose at The Hwy Department Repair Warehouse. I would have had him for the guest of honor for Friday night supper.

saltmine
05-23-2009, 10:03 PM
I wonder what's wrong with some of these people. Prairie dogs are disease carrying vermin (unless they're the animated cartoon variety)

Same goes for pigeons. Pigeons are "rats with wings". But, I found out the other day, even in the semi-rural town I live in, I can go to jail for shooting one with a pellet gun... The ironic thing about it is; when I worked for the County, they spent half-a-million each year cleaning statues, sidewalks, and trying various "humane" schemes to drive them off...

saltmine
05-23-2009, 10:14 PM
When I worked in a car dealer out on the "left coast" I had to replace the engine in a motorhome. It was one of the smaller ones with the cab of a van.
As usual, I got the engine out, and pushed the coach out into the parking lot, to await a replacement engine and assorted parts. About two weeks later, we pushed it back into the shop and I installed the new powerplant.
When I connected the battery I noticed a spark hooking up the terminals. "Hmmm, must have left an interior light on." I thought.
But....when I turned the key....I was greeted with a huge fireworks display, emanating from under the dash. It seems that local squirrels had gotten into the coach through the engine compartment and developed an appetite for the insulation on the wiring. Under the dash was probably $800 worth of bare stranded copper wire. Talk about fireworks....
What made it even worse was the fact that it was a Dodge motorhome, and Chrysler Corporation refused to "pony up" for the destroyed wiring harness...The poor, dummy, customer got to pay for that.

mark61
05-23-2009, 10:32 PM
Welcome to the communist state of New Jershey where only the criminals have guns. Please throw all your money out the car window as soon as possible!

mark61

chief
05-23-2009, 10:47 PM
51% of the people voted for this type of stupidity, (actually I think they don't know what they voted for or cared as long as the teleprompter messaih made them feel good) you must submit and obey!
So has that $8 a week improved your life?

dewat
05-23-2009, 10:52 PM
Albert Einstein:

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe.

cuslog
05-23-2009, 11:05 PM
Squirrels are nothing more than rats with fuzzy tails.
Same with gophers / ground squirrels.
Humans are getting more and more stupid, especially here on the left coast.

Ken_Shea
05-23-2009, 11:15 PM
It's a sad state of affairs in my old home state. This woman has 4 charges against her for killing a squirrel. I have little sympathy for squirrels as I have $1k total damage over several years from squirrels destroying both gabel end vents on our house. Most recently, squirrel bypassed one of the new (3 year old) vent and chewed an almost 3" hole thru mahoghany clapboard and plywood sheathing. In NJ, pellet guns are banned and believe it or not, slingshots must be registered.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521419,00.html?test=latestnews

Not a sad state of affairs at all to me, it is sometimes necessary to kill pest, when it is, they deserve to die quickly and humainly, this example is just sorry indifference and she deserves punished, wish I was in the judges seat, same goes with hunting, you can't believe the sick stories I have heard on the wounding animals and thinking nothing of it, actually almost bragging that they at least hit it. Animals do not have evil intent, humans on the other hand do, which is worse is not of debate to me.

Ken

Mcgyver
05-23-2009, 11:22 PM
before everyone gets in a lather, it wasn't that they killed the squirrel, it was how. I grew up on a farm and killing animals large or small doesn't bother me an iota, but I've a problem with people who intentionally or neglectfully cause them to suffer

andy_b
05-23-2009, 11:34 PM
while i have no problem with reducing the squirrel population (a 50% reduction would be fine by me), this guy probably should have made occasional checks of his traps. of course, we used to get tree rats, i mean squirrels, in our attic. we had another problem and when the guy came to fix the one issue, he also sealed up the rafters to keep the squirrels out. a year or so later i was running some plumbing and decided to add more insulation to the walls and when we opened the one section there was a nice mummified squirrel in the rafters. i'm guessing i'd be facing several counts for killing the squirrel by heat, dehydration, and starvation. i'm not happy the stupid thing died like that, but maybe they should stay out of my attic.

when i take something out, i go for a clean kill. the last thing i want is some poor animal suffering. well, except for stinkbugs. i hate those things.

andy b.

Arcane
05-24-2009, 12:43 AM
http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/ap/news/nation_world/45555192.html

I wonder who will ultimately receive a harsher sentence, the owner of the New Jersey pest control company or the three corrections officers who were put on paid leave while the state investigates the inmate's heat-related death. Pretty said state of affairs....

dp
05-24-2009, 01:03 AM
There were no lasting consequences. The experience the squirrel had is long forgotten and matters not one whit. Now if the squirrel had lived through the experience and could tell and re-tell the story to the grandkids for decades to come then yes, it would be a horrific tale.

That didn't happen - it's dead. There will be no stories - no family of squirrels wringing hands over the senseless madness of it. No snipping out stories of unbearable grief from the NYT. In fact, as soon as you quit humanizing the experience the less significant the whole idiot affair becomes.

When a kestrel pulls a squirrel from a tree and begins pulling away it's fur there is no discourse, no time for appeal. The squirrel is skinned alive and it's entrails yanked aside to allow direct access to the liver which is pulled away while the heart is still beating. Then the heart is consumed.

Can we have a sense of proportion here.

Teenage_Machinist
05-24-2009, 01:28 AM
Squirrels? SSSHHHEEAAASSSHHHH! :eek:
Guns? Oh gods, not this again. People do not really divide into "criminal" and "lawr-abahdin'"

Obama? Not the messaih. More like, Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Still, he is not exactly screwing America intentionally.

Communists? Try living in a communist country that the West has not succeeded in wrecking, and you

1: might not hate it soooo much

2: Would laugh at people who call moderate-liberals and progressives "commies". Here, Norway, and Soviet Russia are like your house, the airport, and Timbucktu.

FAIL. Unfortunatly the West has a perfect track record wrecking communist countries, except for the ones that wreck themselves. Therefore, we do not really know. I cannot imagine how these ideas have become so cursed that they are an insult in themselves. Israelite collective community?

Still, unless this was real cruelty to animals, that is BIZARRE SENTENCE. Laws tend to be axiomatic, people often knee-jerk. Also, misanimic.



Also, "left" is what people do when they stop thinking about what they have been told and what benefits them, and start thinking about what helps society and each-other?

Don't you all have coolant wars to talk about?

chief
05-24-2009, 03:21 AM
Teenage machinist, you are a very midguided young man. I doubt you have ever been to a communist country. You have much to learn.

Norman Atkinson
05-24-2009, 04:26 AM
Of course, Chief, is so right but he may have missed the other problem of Fascism.

But on a light hearted comment in this world of moonbeams, the Brits are actually culling the American Grey squirrel which is killing our native Red one.

A local cafe/restaurant has these delicacies on offer-----with the obvious caution in this nanny state-----------------------

'May contain nuts'

Norm

gnm109
05-24-2009, 08:01 AM
Welcome to the communist state of New Jershey where only the criminals have guns. Please throw all your money out the car window as soon as possible!

mark61

They are nuts over there. Everyone makes fun of California but they let us take care of pests out here.

New Jersey, huh? The Mexicans have a saying about places like that. They say: "A mi ni un Pintura!" (I don't even want a picture of it!)

I also understand that New Jersey has the highest taxes next to maybe Sweden or Denmark. I doubt if I'll be visiting there anytime soon. :(



.

nheng
05-24-2009, 08:12 AM
Please don't get me wrong. If any little varmint needs to be taken out, it should be done with as little pain and suffering as possible.

The NJ response was the point here as it was totally out of proportion to the mistake (and certainly not criminal). Let the squirrel RIP without any media attention, fines or jail time!

And don't forget that animal control officers (in some/most? locales) are armed and have the same authority as law enforcement. What's next, a Waco or Ruby Ridge style attack to extricate Fluffy because he/she hasn't been bathed in a month? You laugh but it's possible under Einstein's observation.

Carld
05-24-2009, 11:02 AM
The problem is the animal rights people are the ones in control of all or most the agencies that deal with animals. Most of them are extremeists and would protect animals over humans. There is no rational behaviour or reasoning with animal rights people.

The problem is that radical activists for any thing are the ones that are the mover and shakers of government. The average person won't get involved with government untill it affects them so that puts the radicals in the face of the politicians with no voice of reason to compair them to.

The animal rights people already destroy labratories and other places where they see or think they see the abuse of animals.

I do think if you set a trap you should inspect the trap at least every day and in some states/commonwealths it is a law so she may be in violation of that law. Her license may have a daily inspection requirement too.

Evan
05-24-2009, 11:28 AM
The wife is getting her licence to buy firearms including handguns (no, they aren't banned) and is practicing up at the range. She is really good at hunting squirrels so we don't have too many problems with them other than they really drive the Beardog crazy when they throw fir cones on her.

The law here allows you to kill an animal that is destroying your property regardless of season or type of animal (Wildlife Act 28-2). That doesn't include the bipedal type though. I have been trying to draw a bead on a very large Pileated Woodpecker that has done major damage to the cedar siding on our house. Trouble is I can't get far enough away and still be parallel to the back wall so I don't poke holes in it. The millisecond he sees a shadow or any sign of movement he is gone. He is even more suspicious than the crows.

To attract the attention of the authorities here takes horse abuse. It's kind of like the old west, you do NOT abuse your horses. That will turn everyone against you in a hurry. In this valley just about everyone has either owned horses, boarded horses or currently does one or the other or both. There are probably as many horses as people in the valley at times.

jkilroy
05-24-2009, 11:31 AM
Squirrels taste good, really good, best brown gravy ever to grace a mound of steaming rice! If you haven't tried Squirrel, I suggest you purchase a banned pellet gun and pluck a few out of the back yard, a .22 is very suitable but try for head shots, don't want to mess up the meat.

Teenage_Machinist
05-24-2009, 01:12 PM
Cheif's comment fits his profile. I suspect that he might be a paid poster, because his posts rarely add anything but vitriol, and do not appear in nonbelligerent threads very often. These people do exist, and unlike BillH, dp, and some other rather extreme conservatives and flamers Cheif seems to be focused very closely on politics rather than machining. His posts also are rather succinct, and go far beyond normal inflammatory. EDIT: in fact, I just checked, and it is a minority of his posts that do not include a swipe at liberals, Obama, enviromentalists, or other punching bags of the Rabble and Riches Party. He also introduces politics into threads that had no political topic previously.

As far as "misguided", this came from reading Plato's Republic and other stuff. Plus, I would rather be on the side that thinks poor people have a right to exist. Don't look at the shadows cast by those who control the world.

Communism is not as good an idea as European socialism, where people have their freedom but they also have some social community, not just "me" as seems to be popular here regarding guns, crime, taxes, and poverty.

I SAID that most-all communist countries got wrecked either from inside (like Russia) The outside (like Cuba) or both (like most others). Russia was really poor, then totalitarian, now really poor again due to the STOOPID cold war. Wonder would have happend here if FDR had been deposed in that Fascist coup that failed?

Plato said that someone who had climbed out of his allegorical cave into the clear light of sun would pity his fellow prisoners kept away from knowledge. There are thousands of ideas to have, and this is one. But you will miss the benefits of all of them if you do not look behind the veil of "democrat, republican, or independent, please?"

saltmine
05-24-2009, 01:15 PM
I read about a UFO that landed in New Jersey. The aliens got out, walked around, taking samples and photographs. Then they left. When they got back to their mothership, they reported to their superiors that there was no evidence of intelligent life on earth.

Teenage_Machinist
05-24-2009, 01:45 PM
lol! On Planet Zygar, the concept of money is considered rather strange. All Zygrans who are willing work, and those who do not work are expected to provide food for themselves, or else they are reviewed by the local council for adoption under another Zygran family. They are astounded at the presence of what they called "rich beggars" on earth, and believed the "stack markut" to be some sort of sick joke- a way of trading around absolutely nothing.



Ever read The Persian Letters by Baron de Montesquieu? Some of it is quite funny, and Persians are a lot closer to home...

Applies today. High school society is some kind of dumb joke for Third-Worlders to laugh at.

tony ennis
05-24-2009, 01:50 PM
TM. Glass house.

Anyway,



Communists? Try living in a communist country that the West has not succeeded in wrecking,...

Sorry, they all wreck themselves because they are philosophically, fundamentally flawed.



1: might not hate it soooo much


There are communist and socialists countries all over the world. No one flocks to them. Why do you think that is?



FAIL. Unfortunatly the West has a perfect track record wrecking communist countries, except for the ones that wreck themselves.


Well, they will all wreck themselves eventually. But helping them wreck themselves is doing a kindness to the citizenry.



Therefore, we do not really know. I cannot imagine how these ideas have become so cursed that they are an insult in themselves.
Probably because of the inevitable oppression and disregard of human rights in all communist and socialist countries.


Israelite collective community?
What do Jews have to do with this?



Communism is not as good an idea as European socialism,...[quote]

Communism is a terrible idea, not "not as good." Communism and socialism largest products are oppression and human rights violations.

[quote]where people have their freedom

Less and less as time goes on. You can't even have a lockblade in Britain now. In fact, a chef can be arrested if he takes his knives home using an indirect path. Nice, huh? There is much we take for granted here that is simply impossible in other places.



but they also have some social community, not just "me" as seems to be popular here regarding guns, crime, taxes, and poverty.


Let me explain this to you as simply as I can. These great benefits you tout about 'European socialism' are obtained through coercion. That means the 'social community' is being forced on the population by people with guns. There is no 'opt out.' Now, isn't that a little ironic? Furthermore, the generous European social programs are unsustainable. There is simply no supply/demand to force prices downward. That's broken.

But if this sounds good to you, you should emigrate as soon as you're 18. What you'll notice is that there are more open seats going that way that coming this way. Why do you think that is?

...But be that as it may, the US is heading towards stagnation too. Every year there are thousands of more laws, each of which is designed to limit what we can do. More and more money is being taken from people who plan, participate, and produce only to be given to those who reject all those things. Regulation is driving jobs out of the US, and they are unlikely to return.

Paradise can be had in the US and it is easy to get: Don't reward sloth. But politicians can't get elected if they say that, can they?

Democracies tend to last about 200 years. Then the populace realizes they can vote themselves wealth from the treasury and things come apart. We're on the downward slope, hang on!

jkilroy
05-24-2009, 02:15 PM
TM, I suggest you read Milton Friedman, better yet watch this short take

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

Problem with Plato's republic is that it will never work because, as Friedman points out, the perfect beings that can live outside of, and totally ignore, "directed self interest" don't exists. Capitolism and trade are the only things that have ever brought the poor up out of the ditch, as an example I offer China. It sure isn't communism that has there economy growing at 9% yearly!

I expect that I have wasted some time of my life that I will never get back, and that 20 years from now, possibly, it might be worth undertaking this debate with you.

Norman Atkinson
05-24-2009, 02:16 PM
TM- please learn to spell in English------
it's the 'I' before the 'E' except after 'C'.

It makes you such an ignorant little twerp who has failed to master the rudiments of English and then has to quote Plato. Frankly, I think that you would be pushing it to understand 'Pluto'( no apologies but I was taking the Mickey)

Chief is one of those people who is probably bitter but it comes with the personal difficulties which all fighting men have to try to come to terms.
'Fighting Men' are the people whose personal sacrifice has given you the ability to sound off about subjects which they have only tried to read.

Without Chief, you would be under the thumb of something which you would not be able to indulge in spreading your rubbish.

ex-Corporal Atkinson N.

The RAF 31 (Goldstar) Squadron Association

dp
05-24-2009, 02:38 PM
Cheif's comment fits his profile. I suspect that he might be a paid poster, because his posts rarely add anything but vitriol, and do not appear in nonbelligerent threads very often. These people do exist, and unlike BillH, dp, and some other rather extreme conservatives

Just one point of order - I'm not an extreme conservative. I'm an average conservative. Extreme anything is an unhealthy position. If you understand the bell curve process then I am to the right of center for the general population. If you examine the bell curve for all those to the right of center I am in the center. I expect that you are similarly situated on the left side of things.

Before you toss out colorful descriptions be sure you understand what it is you are coloring.

Teenage_Machinist
05-24-2009, 02:40 PM
CHECK THE ****ING CIA WORLD FACTBOOK! THOSE "***** commie socialist countries" have POSITIVE net migration rates. More people are entering than leaving.


Wrecking countries is not good. Russia and Cuba have horrible poverty.

Also, those European socialsts pretty good human rights.

An Isreali Kibbutz is a collective community in Isreal. And they work...

"Sharing is Caring" And what do parents do when kids do not share?

"Your brother's keeper", also your brother is YOUR keeper.

You could say that ALL countries wreck themselves.

I find it disturbing that your "Freedom" consists mainly of the possesion of deadly weapons. In Britain, trashing habeas corpus is not exactly rampant.

Reguation is driving jobs out of the US, tariffs can solve it. If we stop letting people get a free ride on them, China and Mexico will be able to solve their own problems. Want to get black lung?

Frankly, I think the US is getting messed up, but in the OPPOSITE DIRECTION. The US is one of the craziest conservative countries, and is widely despised (which decreased after Obama. :mad: ).

THe "rabble and riches" effect has always intrigued me. Conservatives are often the less educated who are easily manipulated, and the super-rich who gain from deregulation and being allowed to manipulate people. Liberals tend to be either the really poor, who can tell that they need social programs, and the well educated middle-upper middle class ("Dangerous Intellectuals" like myself).

THat may be why the coasts of the US are more liberal- they are full of cities and places based more on trade than on labor. The middle class is easily prevented from thinking with iPods and other fool's riches, and that is, I think, what happens here.

This is like that thread I started where the Europeans said their health care is imperfect but reasonably good and the Americans argued about socialism!


If there were an excess of jobs in the US, I would feel differently about welfare. However, a huge number of americans live in a state of poverty caused by illegal employment (the reason that immigration is worth doing illegaly), extremely low minimum wages (You cannot actually live in civilization on those levels with a family) and outsourcing of huge numbers of jobs caused by the War on Taxes (those other countries have tariffs!).
There is not enough of a "Lazy Class" to enter into discussion, it's a myth. What we have is the Idle Class: CEOs who gain, with no actual labor, enough money that these people have much more money that the total of the lower classes. These people exercise huge political power to lobby for laws that make it easyer for them to make wealth flow toward them.

THe "Greed is Good" philosophy should end and be replaced with, "When the earth gives forth it's fruits, none shall stave, nor hoard"

Consider the ancient matriarchies, who would surely look at this nation and say, "Oh brave new world"

Edit: That much over TWO LETTERS? Oh, gods, this place is SOOOO WEIRD!

Teenage_Machinist
05-24-2009, 02:59 PM
My conscience is now appeased. One ticket to Oslo, please. ... Go back where my race evolved, try for a college in Canada? Unlikely to meet the immigration requirements, these places are NOT begging for immigrants, for all your saying.


I wish was coming to my age 2500 years ago. I would have a chance of meeting these philosophers, and people would take me seriously at least four years earlier than they do today.

It's all imperfect, yet imperfection serves us when perfection does not.

I can name only one war in the last century that was in any way needed to preserve the freedom of the United states, and I know enough to thank it's fighters.

Evan
05-24-2009, 03:19 PM
The fall of the Soviet Union was primarily due to just one cause:

Vodka

Gorbachev said "If we can't stop drinking it will be the end of the USSR", and he was right.

http://www.theglobalist.com/StoryId.aspx?StoryId=3038

dp
05-24-2009, 03:50 PM
It can be argued that what drove them to drink was the oppressive nature of unnatural blend of socialism and meritocracy. That is socialism with a self-perpetuating elitist core.

TM is suffering from an inability to differentiate types of governments from types of economies and is interspersing them in his rant. It wouldn't hurt anyone interested to google "why _______ fails" and "why ______ succeeds", replacing the gaps with such terms as socialism, feudalism, democracy, capitalism, plutocracy, etc. And in 15 years, do it again to see how one has changed with time in respect to these subjects.

TM: It is a central conservative value to long strongly for the way things were. To do so with great energy and angst is to approach the boundary of what is considered extreme. Better is to consider the era you crave and recall it had a very dark side. It was unpleasant in most places to be young, to be female, or to be a commoner, pauper, or atheist. And if you were not of the majority in terms of race it was quite a miserable world.

I have no longing for a return to that time.

Evan
05-24-2009, 04:38 PM
It can be argued that what drove them to drink was the oppressive nature of unnatural blend of socialism and meritocracy. That is socialism with a self-perpetuating elitist core.


Yes it can, and the essay at the link I posted makes that argument when Gorbachev clamped down on public drinking and drunkenness by restricting supplies of booze.



Instead of just boozing up with each other, Russians now shared their misery about life in miserable, detoxed circumstances. ...

Vodka rationing exposed the true misery of everyday Soviet life — without any alcoholic shock absorber



The problem is that the system crumbled from within, not just because of an inherent flaw in the system but because it drove the nation to drug use which greatly exacerbated any flaws that may have existed.

Sound slightly familiar?

Norman Atkinson
05-24-2009, 05:19 PM
Ah well! well, it's like this- I Corporal Norman Atkinson went with the Park Vein lot from Oslo. Riiser Larsen , Corporal, Colonel and explorer extrordinaire as well as sealer and Boss of the Norwegian Mountain Rescue. of the Red Cross. His second was the man who survived Dachau Concentration and pee'd in the rocket mechanisms as well as looking after the unfortunates of the Nazi hatred.
That is the story TM- MEN and men that would go out yet again for their fellow men in the harsh conditions of the Arctic Winter.


You see I was there, I was out on the mountains with these men and women.
Years earlier, our little aircraft were ready to go through hell. My little ambulance aircraft was always on standby day and night. I was a boy- but I had men to look after- there was a need. The time came and I was tried again, there is a series of mountain rescue teams all over the United Kingdom ready to go out- whatever the risk, whatever the time- for the needs of those less fortunate.

I'm old now- too old to pull a stretcher, but I went back- there was a need.

You'll never be the man that these people are - you haven't the guts.

No, I am not a hero or anything like that. Many months ago, I said that you had no place here. There are some greater men than me here on this forum.



YOU ARE NOT ONE

chief
05-24-2009, 08:19 PM
Teenage Machinist,
I was trying to get you to expand your mind somewhat but that appears to be difficult if not impossible. Please come back tell us about how great communsim is after you have lived in China or in a repressive regime like Saudi Arabia ( I have) or after you get a job and have to support a family (I have) or seen what evil people do first hand in a "peoples war of liberation"
or spent your summer vaction in Lebanon picking up pieces of marines, )I have.)
You know nothing about America yet that running it in the ground is "cool".
Stick to attempting to run a lathe until you grow up.
Paid poster? I have been here a bit longer than you my misguided adolescent friend.
BTW, You need to find out the definition od political terms before you bandy them about.

Your Old Dog
05-24-2009, 08:30 PM
Cheif's comment fits his profile. I suspect that he might be a paid poster, because his posts rarely add anything but vitriol, and do not appear in nonbelligerent threads very often. These people do exist, and unlike BillH, dp, and some other rather extreme conservatives and flamers Cheif seems to be focused very closely on politics rather than machining. His posts also are rather succinct, and go far beyond normal inflammatory. EDIT: in fact, I just checked, and it is a minority of his posts that do not include a swipe at liberals, Obama, enviromentalists, or other punching bags of the Rabble and Riches Party. He also introduces politics into threads that had no political topic previously.


I couldn't disagree with you more. I have always found Chief's comments spot on as they say. What you and a lot other younger minds of mush have to get used to is that those of us who lean to the right are fed up with liberals being able to say whatever they want unchallenged. You're being challenged. So are your teachers who only teach you what's wrong with this country and none of the good. History starts with Bill Clinton and how great he was.

nheng
05-24-2009, 08:49 PM
TM's view of political systems and governments other than ours is not that uncommon. It's one of the reasons that college campuses are an easy mark (TM, no offense intended) for politicians promising a new utopia. I have this just about every evening at our dinner table. I have offered paid travel and even limited housing costs so that France (most often mentioned), Sweden (maybe I could go for some aspects of that ;) ) and other Euro-style socialist systems with "better health care than us" can be experienced first hand. No takers so far.

I think having a fresh view of the world is one of the greatest things about youth but unfortunately, it also makes the youth of this world an easy mark for those full of hot air and/or themselves.

TM seems like a smart young man although we may not agree with his socio-political views. As a smart young man, he will figure out how the world works, separate the good guys from the bad guys and develop a sense of who is full of hot air and who delivers and acts on a consistent message.

At this point in time, we still lead the world in the spillage of blood for the benefit of others ... frequently a thankless mission. On this eve of Memorial Day, we need to think about the 99.999..% of the fine young men and women in our military and the high standards that they uphold. Forget the crap images that our useless media plays over and over again for the sake of ratings or to otherwise inflict damage on world opinion of this country. Watch how quickly they will eat their "own" when the tide changes.

Den

mochinist
05-24-2009, 08:49 PM
I couldn't disagree with you more. I have always found Chief's comments spot on as they say. What you and a lot other younger minds of mush have to get used to is that those of us who lean to the right are fed up with liberals being able to say whatever they want unchallenged. You're being challenged. So are your teachers who only teach you what's wrong with this country and none of the good. History starts with Bill Clinton and how great he was.What liberals have been saying whatever they wanted and are not being challenged?

dp
05-24-2009, 08:55 PM
The problem is that the system crumbled from within, not just because of an inherent flaw in the system but because it drove the nation to drug use which greatly exacerbated any flaws that may have existed.


What sustains non-democratic socialism (and many forms of imposed government) is the power of gunpowder. Take that away and socialism crumbles quickly. When King Kamehameha unified the islands of Hawaii it was not the power of his ideas but the power of English cannons that turned the trick.

Your Old Dog
05-24-2009, 09:11 PM
What liberals have been saying whatever they wanted and are not being challenged?

Fantastic question! Guess you got me. I got a question for you. Who hasn't?

mochinist
05-24-2009, 09:15 PM
Who hasn't?I don't know, but I wasn't making any claims one way or the other.


For the record I wouldn't consider myself a liberal:cool:



go machine something and let this crappy thread die

Evan
05-24-2009, 09:23 PM
The alcohol problem was especially severe. An any point in time a sizable percentage of the population was either drunk of very hung over and unproductive. Even in the 90s this was still the case. My son was in Vladivostok in '96 on a military exercise and on shore leave he was surprised to find Vodka vending machines scattered about in public places and even right on the sidewalks. A 250 ml can of vodka (made in Holland) cost about 1/2 rouble or 25 cents back then.

I think that since then the pressure of competitive business has played a big part in reducing alcohol consumption. It helps when your employer insists if you want to stay employed.

There were many things wrong with the system in the USSR. Not the least was that the government was communist in name only. I can't recall any government that is or was nominally communist that actually lived up to the ideals of Marxism as originally outline by Marx. Possible exceptions are various small religious communes but they operate on a very primitive level.

dp
05-24-2009, 09:26 PM
The alcohol problem was especially severe. An any point in time a sizable percentage of the population was either drunk of very hung over and unproductive. Even in the 90s this was still the case. My son was in Vladivostok in '96 on a military exercise and on shore leave he was surprised to find Vodka vending machines scattered about in public places and even right on the sidewalks. A 250 ml can of vodka (made in Holland) cost about 1/2 rouble or 25 cents back then.

Sounds like the Aerospatial factory I was in in Toulouse, France. Vast selection of wines at the extraordinary company cafeteria, and beer vending machines on the floor of the final assembly hangars. Quite amazing to see.

gnm109
05-24-2009, 09:32 PM
Ah well! well, it's like this- I Corporal Norman Atkinson went with the Park Vein lot from Oslo. Riiser Larsen , Corporal, Colonel and explorer extrordinaire as well as sealer and Boss of the Norwegian Mountain Rescue. of the Red Cross. His second was the man who survived Dachau Concentration and pee'd in the rocket mechanisms as well as looking after the unfortunates of the Nazi hatred.
That is the story TM- MEN and men that would go out yet again for their fellow men in the harsh conditions of the Arctic Winter.


You see I was there, I was out on the mountains with these men and women.
Years earlier, our little aircraft were ready to go through hell. My little ambulance aircraft was always on standby day and night. I was a boy- but I had men to look after- there was a need. The time came and I was tried again, there is a series of mountain rescue teams all over the United Kingdom ready to go out- whatever the risk, whatever the time- for the needs of those less fortunate.

I'm old now- too old to pull a stretcher, but I went back- there was a need.

You'll never be the man that these people are - you haven't the guts.

No, I am not a hero or anything like that. Many months ago, I said that you had no place here. There are some greater men than me here on this forum.



YOU ARE NOT ONE


Amen Brother. Thank you for your service!

tattoomike68
05-24-2009, 09:38 PM
Im American and dont give a crap what anyone thinks. I burn what I want, shoot what I want and kill anything on my place I want.


When my dog got in a fight with a coon it died ASAP.

He got shot in the head for being in my gargage.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/snoopdog6502/coon11.jpg

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/snoopdog6502/deadcoon1.jpg

Evan
05-24-2009, 11:54 PM
My wife has a trap line. I wonder what they would say about it?

http://metalshopborealis.ca/pics/mouse2.jpg

Teenage_Machinist
05-25-2009, 01:26 AM
...

Actually, this is pretty undebateble that the big media TOTALLY leans right. Debatable how far, but the way liberal is used as a swear word...

It's liberals that get criticized, almost everything in the US is at least somewhat right-ish and the right in the US is not like it is in Europe


"I dare do all that become a man. Who dares do more is none". Out heroding herod...

Being the Roman Empire is quite different from saving lives. One or two neccesary wars, most of the others including particualrly recent ones mainly just to benefit US income and power.

"Guts" are acquired, to some extent. That is what happens with military training- Turns men into savages. Lord of the Flies. And I'm Simon.

There are much better things than this country. Such as the Future, and the Whole World.

trap
05-25-2009, 04:36 AM
TM
This is Memorial Day and you dare speak such garbage.
you spend too much time in the house.
Go meet this world first hand.

Norman Atkinson
05-25-2009, 05:15 AM
Trap,
TM is hiding behind a mother's skirt.

Chief- we know, is a disabled ex-serviceman.

He may be a grumpy old bugger, but he and I have good reason.

Another disabled but lucky survivor.

'They grow not old, as we that are left
Age shall not weary them nor the years condemn
At the going down of the Sun and in the morning
We will remember.'

'When you go home, tell them of us and say
For your tomorrow, we gave our today'

Evan
05-25-2009, 06:20 AM
Teenage Machinist,

Don't lose your idealism too soon. Never mind the scolding of these Grumpy Old Men. You will always find those that disagree with you regardless of the stand you take. I may not agree with your position but I admire your conviction. There are no perfect systems of government and none of the systems that exist actually live up to the ideals they claim to stand for.

Rustybolt
05-25-2009, 08:25 AM
I keep a pellet gun for groundhogs. They are very destructive and hard to kill. If I leave the carcas in the old railroad right of way the other critters will clean it up for me.


Evan.Marxism as proposed by marx is another utopian religion. It requires a suspension of human nature in order to work. That is why it has never been sucessful without a lot of bodies left lying around. Freemarkets are always sucessful. They rely on human nature to work. Economics isn't about money. It's about what people do with money.


Fascism is the dark side of socialism. During the twenties and thirties the left in both the US and Britain lauded Musollini.


My wifes ex mother in law was from Cuba. One of the kind of people the revolution was supposed to help. She got out as fast as she could and by working two jobs well into her 50s she managed to 'buy' her family out of bondage. Mother,(father stayed) two aunts, their children, two sisters, and a brother. $10,000-50,000 each. Viva la Revolution!


OK I'm done. God bless everyone of you that has served. And god bless everyone of them who never came home.

Ken_Shea
05-25-2009, 09:15 AM
Im American and dont give a crap what anyone thinks. I burn what I want, shoot what I want and kill anything on my place I want.




Well.... there is not much "American" in bragging about shooting a caged animal, let alone take pictures of it and I'm dang sure it would be a good bet that your dog attacked the coon, what the hell did you expect the coon to do.

Maybe if you put up no trespassing signs for the coons, warning that violators would be shot, but then if you enjoy it........

kvom
05-25-2009, 09:53 AM
"The problem with socialism that eventually you run out of other people's money" -- Margaret Thatcher

JCHannum
05-25-2009, 09:54 AM
The problem with TaM's opinions is that they are not his, but are what have been drilled into his skull by the liberal education we are all paying for him to receive.

Evan
05-25-2009, 09:59 AM
Fascism is the dark side of socialism

It's also the dark side of capitalism. The difference is that with unregulated capitalism the facists are the bosses instead of the politicos. They can kill you just as dead as a malevolent government through dangerous work conditions, lack of safety equipment, exposure to deadly chemicals and the like.

Either system requires checks and balances. It's how those are implemented along with the active participation of the general population that makes either system work or fail.

gnm109
05-25-2009, 10:22 AM
I personally think this sort of talk belongs in a group session somewhere, perhaps after a long day in a sheltered workshop assembling shopping carts.

TM: You use too many quotes for me. I have a degree in English literature and a Juris Doctor degree and I don't bother my friends and acquaintances with this sort of nonsense.

Here's a quote for you. "Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise; and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding." Holy Bible, King James Version, Proverbs 17:28.

Today is a day to reflect on the many fine servicemen and women who have given their lives and limbs for freedom. I also consider the ones still serving and our friends in Canada, UK, Australia and elsewhere who have been by our side in the many challenges on our shared freedom. God Bless them all.

lazlo
05-25-2009, 10:27 AM
I'm not an extreme conservative. I'm an average conservative. If you understand the bell curve process then I am to the right of center for the general population.

You need to remember that about a third of American voters are Democrats, a third are Republicans, and the remaining third are independents. The independents vote based on the current set of issues facing the country and quality of the candidate, and not the party affiliation.

By the way Chief: Obama got 53% of the popular vote, and McCain 46%.

In any event, you're a bunch of grown men bashing a high school kid -- let's get back to machining...

Rustybolt
05-25-2009, 10:35 AM
Evan. The beauty of free markets is that an unsafe workplace too soon runs out of people to work there. Labor isn't a zero sum game either. It is a commity just like everything else. The problem wih regulation is that everyone wants to things regulated to their advantage. Freemarkets create jobs. They also create choices. As a Classic Liberal I want people to have as many choices as they possibly can in every area of life. Socialism/Progressivism don't supply choices.

dp
05-25-2009, 10:55 AM
Teenage Machinist,

Don't lose your idealism too soon. Never mind the scolding of these Grumpy Old Men. You will always find those that disagree with you regardless of the stand you take. I may not agree with your position but I admire your conviction. There are no perfect systems of government and none of the systems that exist actually live up to the ideals they claim to stand for.

This is exactly right. I would only add that he is far too young and empty of world experiences to be so quickly judgmental which only shows he has some ways to go to be a mature conversationalist. And that in no way makes him unique on this bbs. What makes him somewhat unique and worth the rewardless effort of passive mentoring is another consequence of his youth and inexperience. He is not so set in his ways that he cannot discover what he does not yet know. That is a fact of biology - his mind will grow and change daily and it is unavoidable that he will filter things differently as time passes. That cannot be said for many who engage in these conversations.

lazlo
05-25-2009, 10:56 AM
The beauty of free markets is that an unsafe workplace too soon runs out of people to work there. As a Classic Liberal I want people to have as many choices as they possibly can in every area of life. Socialism/Progressivism don't supply choices.

I think you need to spend some time reading a couple of history books. :) Unbridled capitalism leads to an exploitation of the masses, as demonstrated by the abysmal working conditions and child labor in the English and American Industrial Revolutions. In fact, it was the Industrial Revolution that led Karl Marx to write the Communist Manifesto -- Marx argued that capitalism was just another form of feudalism, where the rich ruled the masses by economic leverage, rather than historical blood lines. Think about that next time you look at your 401K statement.

Without regulation, we wouldn't have seat belts or air bags, scrubbers on smoke stacks, or safety equipment on machinery, and Credit Default swaps would be legal. Oh, wait... ;)

Ironically, history has gone full circle, and the communist governments in China and Vietnam are now repeating the same mistakes, exploiting peasant and child labor on 100 year old machines with no safety guards...

dp
05-25-2009, 11:16 AM
Lazlo - regulation is fine - no right thinking person would consider deregulation to be the elimination of regulation - only useless regulation.

The problem with regulation is the regulators and that is a problem because they do not remember always the reason for regulation and who should benefit by regulation. The use of radio frequencies and transmission is heavily regulated, for example, and it is difficult to imagine radio being at all useful without strident regulation. But it has not always been well regulated. It is the same with business, product safety, health care, you name it. At some point the regulators blow it either by getting in bed with the regulators or by regulating in a manner that benefits edge cases or only the regulator.

The coastal protection act in California in the 1970's comes to mind. A company I worked for opened an office in San Diego. The building was one mile from the nearest coastline and at an elevation of over 400'. No way it could be considered a threat or have impact on the shoreline. Yet we were told by the CPA nannies that our storefront sign was too large and we had to reduce it in size by half.

Regulations that are coercive are particularly offensive to me. I've not ridden a bicycle since the helmet law went in to effect for adults. My bike is a Schwinn Beach Cruiser and rarely gets above a jogging speed. I don't want to wear a helmet while riding it as it takes from the pleasure of riding. There are thousands of examples of absurd regulation that serve only to put a regulator's name in the legal history of the land, or to pander to a local interest group, etc. When I think of deregulation from a conservative perspective those laws are what I think of.

lazlo
05-25-2009, 12:02 PM
Lazlo - regulation is fine - no right thinking person would consider deregulation to be the elimination of regulation - only useless regulation.

Oh, heck yes Dennis. The problem is, regulation is in the eye of the beholder :)

Personally, I think we have way too much regulation in some areas, and way too little in others. I don't profess to know the right balance, but I'm pretty sure the politicians don't either, especially since their election campaigns are financed by the big corporations.

We've become the Oligarchy that Marx warned about. I think a correctly functioning Democracy would nicely balance Capitalism and a Free Market economy, but we've allowed Capitalism to become a major part of our political system.

The first thing we do, is kill all the lobbyists...

dp
05-25-2009, 12:12 PM
The first thing we do, is kill all the lobbyists...

I'd start with congressional staff - the unelected lawwriters who are career lifers in government and who are accountable to nobody. Not kill them, of course, but get rid of them. Nobody should be in the lawmaking loop as long as they are and without accountability. Then I'd get rid of anyone who's been elected twice. It's turned out to be good regionally to keep these hacks around but bad nationally.

And there needs to be a law prohibiting the US or state governments from having a seat on the board or to be a shareholder in any corporation. Seems like the RICO laws would have covered it, or anti-trust. The problem being the largest customer in the US is the US. If they have a vested interest in a particular business, or worse, an industry such as banking, they can wreak havoc on the competition as a means of remotely managing what the competition does to align themselves with government wishes. That is evil.

Weston Bye
05-25-2009, 12:38 PM
TM,


As far as "misguided", this came from reading Plato's Republic and other stuff.

Plato had the luxury and leisure to develop and document his philosophy because he wasn’t encumbered with getting a living. That was provided by the labor, to some degree, of slaves. If not Plato’s personal slaves, then indirectly through the society that depended on slave labor to flourish – democracy and republic notwithstanding.


Plus, I would rather be on the side that thinks poor people have a right to exist.
Indeed, then prepare to live a life of servitude: In a society where subsistence can be had without effort and toil brings but small reward, more and more will opt for easy subsistence, rather than poorly rewarded toil.
You have demonstrated an aptitude to be a productive member of society; you can make things. You appear to spend your time in useful contemplation, education and action, rather than idleness, leisure and recreation. The ignorant, stupid and lazy in society will need you: not only do they have a “right to exist” as you say, but the liberal notion of “equality of outcomes” demands that they are entitled to live as well as you do. You will be able to create and produce where others cannot, and be expected - perhaps compelled - to.


THe "Greed is Good" philosophy should end and be replaced with, "When the earth gives forth it's fruits, none shall stave, nor hoard"
The earth does not universally “give forth its fruits”. Where it does, populations and societies grow, eventually exceeding the carrying capacity of the natural largess. Even before that point is reached, someone must gather and harvest to meet the needs of the aged and infirm. The lazy see this and will then contrive to subsist without even the minimal labor of gathering.


What capitalism accomplishes through greed and self-interest, socialism can only accomplish through compulsion and confiscation. Capitalism has shown to be a sometimes unfair upward spiral, socialism has shown to be a most times unfair downward spiral.

lazlo
05-25-2009, 12:53 PM
What capitalism accomplishes through greed and self-interest, socialism can only accomplish through compulsion and confiscation. Capitalism has shown to be a sometimes unfair upward spiral, socialism has shown to be a most times unfair downward spiral.

You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Socialism is an economic concept which proposes to manage the economy through collective social control.

The government takeover of AIG, Bear-Stearns, Merril Lynch et al is classic socialism -- the failure of AIG and the Wall Street investment banks would have devastated the country, so Bush and Paulson were forced to nationalize the companies.

Communism, by contrast, is an economic and political system that manages the economy and society through collective property ownership, where control over the distribution of property is centralized in a one-party political system.

Weston Bye
05-25-2009, 02:06 PM
You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Socialism is an economic concept which proposes to manage the economy through collective social control.

The government takeover of AIG, Bear-Stearns, Merril Lynch et al is classic socialism -- the failure of AIG and the Wall Street investment banks would have devastated the country, so Bush and Paulson were forced to nationalize the companies.

Communism, by contrast, is an economic and political system that manages the economy and society through collective property ownership, where control over the distribution of property is centralized in a one-party political system.

Socialism is merely communism with a pretty face. As practiced by the current "liberal" philosophy, it becomes nothing more than "looting" of established wealth and wealth-producing mechanisms; "soaking the rich".
When those resources have been consumed, any income-producing activity is fair game, and the merely productive are taxed to support the unproductive. When not enough of "other people's money" is available to support the rest, benefits are cut across the board. Laws are passed preventing the productive from purchasing additional benefits. There comes a point when producers arrive at "why bother" and quit producing. The downward spiral continues.

dp
05-25-2009, 02:21 PM
There comes a point when producers arrive at "why bother" and quit producing. The downward spiral continues.

It's actually gone beyond that now that the US government is an active partner in banking and industry. And given the unlimited credit the US has it can outride business cycles that will hurt privately owned businesses. And as those businesses fail the government can snap up the assets. Who needs capitalists? In fact, capitalists have no hope to succeed in this environment since their competition also makes the rules.

The nice thing about a democracy is that this overthrow of the US economy happened without firing a shot. We are an example for the world.

http://media.townhall.com/Townhall/Car/b/aria09040920090409021221.jpg

lazlo
05-25-2009, 02:43 PM
You're confusing socialism with capitalism. Socialism is an economic concept which proposes to manage the economy through collective social control.
Socialism is merely communism with a pretty face.

That's Rush's definition. The textbook definition of socialism is vastly different from communism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Socialism refers to any one of various economic theories of economic organization advocating state or cooperative ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods, and a society characterized by equal opportunities for all individuals with a more egalitarian method of compensation.

Socialists mainly share the belief that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital, creates an unequal society, and does not provide equal opportunities for everyone in society. Therefore socialists advocate the creation of a society in which wealth and power are distributed more evenly based on the amount of work expended in production.

Rustybolt
05-25-2009, 03:17 PM
lazlo said,
"I think you need to spend some time reading a couple of history books. Unbridled <strike>capitalism<\strike> socialism leads to an exploitation of the masses,"

Fixed that.

Free markets have proven sucessful everywhere they're tried. Socialism/progressivism has failed miserably everywhere it has been tried.

Funny thing about child labor laws, why weren't they advocated for family farms as well?



My grandmother was born in this country, but didn't learn how to speak english until she was in the 1st grade. that was how insular Chicago neighborhoods were around the turn of the last century 1910-15 I think. She graduated from eighth grade and went to work at Wriggleys packaging chewing gum. She worked until she and a friend had enough to start their own dry goods store. She was 18.

Evan
05-25-2009, 03:26 PM
Communism incorporates socialism. Socialism does not imply communism although the two may coexist. Socialism can also coexist with capitalism as well a monarchism as is the case in the Scandinavian countries.

I have found that most people that argue stridently against the "Red Menace" have little to zero idea what communism is really about. Communism works quite well for small groups of people that are like minded, usually because of a religious conviction. There are communes in nearly every country of the world and many are very successful. It's when the concept is extended to large numbers of people that it breaks down. It simply will not work if there are any significant numbers of people that refuse to contribute to the communal endeavour.

That brings about compulsory tactics to extract compliance from the segment that won't cooperate. The moment that happens communism is dead and is replaced by something else, frequently a totalitarian oligarchy. Although such a system can be benevolent to a degree the requirement to insure cooperation of all the population often results in a despotic regime.

Weston Bye
05-25-2009, 04:01 PM
... It simply will not work if there are any significant numbers of people that refuse to contribute to the communal endeavour.

That brings about compulsory tactics to extract compliance from the segment that won't cooperate. The moment that happens communism is dead and is replaced by something else, frequently a totalitarian oligarchy. Although such a system can be benevolent to a degree the requirement to insure cooperation of all the population often results in a despotic regime.

Well said Evan, but socialism is also a step down that slippery slope.

Let me shift my terms somewhat. The Free Market (rather than capitalism)does not compel me to participate. It may be in my best intrest to participate, even under terms that I don't like, but there is no compulsion. I am simply ignored.
Social control demands my participation, "for the greater good" where there may be no benefit to me.

Under the free market system I have a choice about who treats me badly, and maybe a chance to succeed. Under Social Control, choices are more limited, and faceless bureaucracies are more difficult to deal with.

Teenage_Machinist
05-25-2009, 04:26 PM
I feel like the Weird Sisters in Macbeth! Except, instead of causing a pair of bloody coups, I seem to have caused..

Sound and fury, signifying something

LOL! Rational Dialogue Saves the Day!

Once people got past the shadow show of Red and BLue in the cave...
This is what I meant by questioning stuff.


A note on how I learned about this: My education was NOT liberal, unless that was a pun on "liberal arts." But my history teacher teaches things without demonizing or exhalting them, and while liberal, my parents are not nearly as liberal as I am. WIth the exception of one rather weird talk about Obama that offended me, I have not perceived ANY politics in school.

Evan and Lazlo are some of the wisest people here.

rantbot
05-25-2009, 04:43 PM
...Actually, this is pretty undebateble that the big media TOTALLY leans right. Debatable how far, but the way liberal is used as a swear word...

You are extraordinarily confused.

Your contention is easily disproved because it can be tested. You should perform such a test.

dewat
05-25-2009, 04:44 PM
ism,
a distinctive doctrine, theory, system, or practice,

In other words it is a belief system and one only needs belief for that which is not true, that which is true can be directly experienced.

All ism's are products of the ego, nothing honest can come from the ego, the ego is only useful for being right and making other people wrong.

Now let's repeat the non-conformists' oath:

I promise to be different!
I promise to be unique!
I promise not to repeat things other people say!

.

PeteM
05-25-2009, 04:47 PM
Anyone who thinks a simple label (e.g. liberal, conservative, socialist, communist) captures reality is in denial of reality IMO.

The squirrel case at the top of this thread is an instance. Most everyone, including me, thinks it's a case of government lunacy. But it's certainly not clear that any vast "liberal/socialist/community conspiracy" is behind any of it. Just the local SPCA chief. .

The guy who started all this Chief Buddy Amato (Chief of the Monmouth County SPCA) looks to be more of a publicity hound than anything else. An ex sports star and long time Black Belt and head of a martial arts academy -- it's hard to say that anything more than what's going on inside his own head is responsible. Most folks in his home county think he's over the top on this one as well -- maybe he'll get recalled.

Teenage_Machinist
05-25-2009, 04:48 PM
Your post and your signature work well together... :D

Time to hover through the swarf and smoky air.

rantbot
05-25-2009, 04:49 PM
This woman has 4 charges against her for killing a squirrel.The story is a bit superficial, but it looks to me like the charges are for torturing a squirrel to death. There's no implication there that she was charged with simply killing a squirrel. The lesson seems to be that if you're going to kill a squirrel, do it right.

lazlo
05-25-2009, 05:08 PM
I have found that most people that argue stridently against the "Red Menace" have little to zero idea what communism is really about.

Well said Evan. As we've seen in this thread, the average voter doesn't know what socialism is either.

Socialism is the economic principle of distribution of wealth according to deeds -- according to the quality and quantity of work performed.

Communism is the political theory and practice of a state controlled economy, where wealth is distributed according to need (as determined by the state).

The critical difference, like Evan alluded, is that Socialism designed as moderation of unrestricted capitalism by consensus (the popular vote), where Communism advocates an overthrow of the "capitalist dictatorship" by the working class. Socialism encourages the individual to aspire to greatness in personal pursuit, Communism eradicates it (witness the Chinese Cultural Revolution).

One thing that socialism and communism do have in common is that they both attempt to restrain unfettered Capitalism. The US is a prime example of what happens when Capitalism runs amok. The US has, by far, the widest disparity of wealth of all the industrialized nations, with the exception of Switzerland, and the gap continues to widen:

http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/power/wealth.html

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Incomedistribution.gif

lazlo
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
...Actually, this is pretty undebateble that the big media TOTALLY leans right. Debatable how far, but the way liberal is used as a swear word...
You are extraordinarily confused.

I think he means that Fox is undeniably right-leaning, which is not surprising since it was founded by Republican political strategist Roger Ailes, and Fox's board of directors is the Who's Who of the GOP. On the other hand CNN is undeniably Left-leaning, so as a conservative independent, I tend to watch both and average the two opinions. I figure between Bill O'Reily and Bill Mahr, I'm getting Fair and Even reporting :D

As an aside, I think the Fox News entry on Wikipedia has set the record for the most disputed and most wided edited entry in Wikipedia's history. I notice that they've split the page in two, there's a second entry now entitled "Fox News Controversy" which described a IP audit that indicates a whole bunch of Wiki edits were coming directly from computers inside Fox News :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fox_News_Channel_controversies

Wikipedia edits

In August 2007 a new utility, Wikipedia Scanner, revealed that Wikipedia articles relating to Fox News had been edited from IP addresses owned by Fox News,[63] though it was not possible to determine exactly who the editors were. The tool showed that self-referential edits from IP ranges owned by corporations and news agencies were not uncommon.[64] Fox edits received attention in the blogosphere and on some online news sites. Wikipedia articles edited from Fox computers from 2005 through 2007 included Al Franken, Keith Olbermann, Chris Wallace and Brit Hume.

Rustybolt
05-25-2009, 05:19 PM
No utopian society, including a purely communist one has lasted very long without taking advantage of the freemarket outside. Freemarkets work because they react to the way people actually behave rather than the way we wish they would behave.
Scratch a modern liberal and you'll find a facist busybody. No thanks.

dp
05-25-2009, 05:44 PM
I think he means that Fox is undeniably right-leaning, which is not surprising since it was founded by Republican political strategist Roger Ailes, and Fox's board of directors is the Who's Who of the GOP. On the other hand CNN is undeniably Left-leaning, so as a conservative independent, I tend to watch both and average the two opinions. I figure between Bill O'Reily and Bill Mahr, I'm getting Fair and Even reporting :D

If you think you are getting news from either of those people then you are confused about what is news and what is editorial. Just to help everyone understand the news stations: The news is what a low-paid news reader provides. What the O'Reeally/Mahr et al provide is commentary. The news readers on both CNN and Fox are reading headlines and the day's events. When I need commentary or analysis I do it. As such I don't watch Fox or CNN, and I don't listen to radio talk shows. They can't tell me what to think so why bother?

So I get my news from aggregaters and from a variety of news sources from around the world, and I try to read the news going east to west, following the news day. I spend about 2-3 hours a day at this, longer if there is a hotspot topic of interest. After following the news, bookmarking stories of interest I try to find alternate perspectives on what is presented. For headlines this is easy to do at newsmax, Politico, RealClearPolitics, and for humor, BaracksTeleprompter. Then I get on to EuroWeeklyNews and ScandanivianNow, and AlJezeera and read the editorials to see what they think of the world situation from their perspective. There's not a news site in all of England worth a visit.

The news for me includes a number of science sites including NASA, APOD, New Scientist (a sadly leftist page), Popular Science, Science Daily, Arctic Sea Ice News (which has nothing but really good news these days), and SolarCycle24.

So unless I get it from you I have no idea what Limbaugh, O'Reeally, Mahr, Stewart etc. have to say and don't care :)

Evan
05-25-2009, 07:18 PM
In my experience if you ask a liberal the news media lean to the right. If you ask a conservative the media lean to the left.

dp
05-25-2009, 07:25 PM
In my experience if you ask a liberal the news media lean to the right. If you ask a conservative the media lean to the left.


When you say "news" do you mean the reporting or the editorial page? "News" should be right down the middle but of course it is not, and every poll taken shows the reporters themselves are left leaning by a good margin and they're not particularly shy about that. And they are also attempting to redefine what is widely accepted as the middle so that they don't look so left-leaning.

Editorialists and talking heads are free from objectivity and any pretense of fairness.

Ken_Shea
05-25-2009, 09:59 PM
Can we get get off this political/social crap and get back to the squirrel :D

sansbury
05-25-2009, 10:01 PM
It's also the dark side of capitalism. The difference is that with unregulated capitalism the facists are the bosses instead of the politicos. They can kill you just as dead as a malevolent government through dangerous work conditions, lack of safety equipment, exposure to deadly chemicals and the like.

If you look historically at fascism you will see that, like communism, it is all about the power of the state. Look at Spain under Franco or Italy under Mussolini. Fascism allows private property, accumulation of wealth, etc., but only so long as it serves the ends of the state. China today is probably a perfect example of a modern fascist state, as is Russia.

In both countries large numbers of people keep their heads down about politics and enjoy economic freedoms on par with what we have in the West. There are even millionaires and billionaires. But even with them there is no question who is boss. Get on the wrong side of the Party or Vladimir Putin and your factory will be taken from you and if lucky you'll be allowed to sweep up cigarette butts in the local park.

Evan
05-25-2009, 10:21 PM
I mean the perception of the reporting. Few people are satisfied that the reporting they see and hear accurately reflects their own view.

When I was young I used to listen to the news as reported on Voice of America vs Radio Moscow. During the Cold War the discrepancies were glaring and were about as common on either side. Interestingly to me, perhaps the most neutral of all the reporters I have heard was one on Radio Moscow. I can't remember his name but he spoke with perfect english, absolutely free of any accent. He was sometimes critical of the Soviet regime which was very surprising to hear on Radio Moscow at the time. It seemed that he was free to say what he wished and that he must have written his own scripts.

His name will come to me, he was educated in the US as the son of an ambassador is what I recall.

sansbury
05-25-2009, 10:58 PM
Socialism is the economic principle of distribution of wealth according to deeds -- according to the quality and quantity of work performed.

The problem with such a system is that it places great power in the hands of those who judge the "quality" of work performed.


The US has, by far, the widest disparity of wealth of all the industrialized nations, with the exception of Switzerland, and the gap continues to widen:


If we use the OECD countries as a point of comparison, it is immediately evident that the US is larger and more diverse than all of them, sometimes dramatically so. The UK is 85% white British and another 5% white European. That puts it on par with St. Cloud, Minnesota, which I would be willing to bet has a bit less of an income gap than NYC, Dallas, or Chicago.

As for Sweden, where many of St. Cloud's residents originated, it boasts a total population of 9 million, of whom 87% consider themselves Lutherans. 87 percent! Pick a random small town in northern New Hampshire or Vermont and I bet you a sawbuck there are at least 3 or 4 different churches within 5 miles, and I wouldn't be surprised to see twice that number.

Is it really any surprise that a place so large and diverse would have more variation than a smaller and more homogeneous country?

Ken_Shea
05-25-2009, 11:44 PM
The problem with such a system is that it places great power in the hands of those who judge the "quality" of work performed.

That is not always and/or necessarily a bad thing, quality control here in the states, often and much to our chagrin, ends up in the hands of the consumer, in Italy for example, the Government requires a certain level of quality, of which, I am sure there is wide spread corruption. Nothing, perfect, anywhere here on earth.
Ken

Norman Atkinson
05-26-2009, 02:51 AM
Sansbury writes with apparently great authority on Spain and the days of Franco.

As a Spanish 'Don' for the last 32 years, might I ask him what his personal knowledge is on the subject both with Franco and after with Don Carlos?

Again, I've been to China and have a lot of friends who are Chinese.
What personal knowledge do the writers bring?

Again, I was part of 'Operation Plain Fare' as the Berlin Airlift was correctly known. I have been in Tito's 'Yugoslavia and in Easter Europe.

( I do get round) What is everyone's personal knowledge on the subjects?

Let's have the REAL men, eh? The ones with that have actually been.

Norman

Evan
05-26-2009, 05:37 AM
Are you saying that a "classical education" isn't enough? I doubt that there is anyone here, including yourself, that has contemporary experience with the Greek philosophers, for instance.

The fact that someone hasn't actually lived under any particular set of circumstances doesn't make them incapable of judging the merits or lack of same of a particular scenario, form of government, time in history or series of events and the possible impacts on those who were there.

Even being there is no gaurantee of having a clearer understanding of events and conditions. Our experiences are coloured by our understanding or lack of it and by our particular station at the time of the experience. No two people will have the precise same experience and many will have widely diverging views of the same apparent circumstances.

The saying that "Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it" speaks to the value of passing on knowledge of what has gone before as much of history isn't worth repeating.

Norman Atkinson
05-26-2009, 06:29 AM
Evan,
There are times when I despair! The last time that you and I crossed swords, you were the expert on the National Health Service in the UK-- but had never been part- or even remotely medically qualified. You could probably managed a 'Band Aid' if you had Googled it earlier.

I was sitting not only a Registered member of a Trust but had a wife who was a Fellow of the Royal College of Surgeons, a daughter likewise and and a son in law who is a consultant cardiologist. I could go on but you have reached the equally wonderous state about commenting about military service, about Fascism but you have only read about it whereas I actually bought property in Spain under Franco. Again, I was involved to an extent where I watched my mates die under Communist infiltration into the UK.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm not the cissie because the bugger that did it never made it back to Mother Russia. I saw to that.

Now, I would suggest that you get out and see what first hand experience really means. Come back when you have something first hand to offer.

Slightly pi55ed off, and with every justification. Do something-- even if it is wrong!

Norman

Evan
05-26-2009, 06:57 AM
you were the expert on the National Health Service in the UK--

And, it turned out that I was correct about the events, which you were loathe to admit but hinted at in one of your last posts on that subject.


Now, I would suggest that you get out and see what first hand experience really means.

I have had experience that you likely don't even know exists Norman. I have also traveled considerably more than most. I have seen the very dark side of human nature, on which I will not elaborate, as well as the best there is to be found.

You project the image of someone living in an ivory tower, complete with the assumption that you enjoy a higher station and because of that your words are worth more than others. Yet you continually repeat the same old tired proclamations that you, and only you know "how it was to be there" with a great deal of smoke and fury but very little illumination.

Get off your high horse and join the rest of us Norman.

Norman Atkinson
05-26-2009, 07:48 AM
Wasting my time! I could be throwing snowballs at the moon