PDA

View Full Version : Black Iron pipe airlines



ligito
06-07-2009, 03:20 PM
I am getting ready to install black iron pipe air lines in my garage shop.
Home Depot has it already threaded.
I have about 61 feet inside the shop. I also have to run hose outside to air up tires and occasionally use air tools outside.


TP Tools suggests 1/2 in, up to 75 ft.
Should I use 1/2 in, or 3/4?

Do I need to include the outside hose in the equation?

Davidhcnc
06-07-2009, 04:04 PM
The demand of your tool (s) is what dictates the pipe size, the length of pipe will have an effect but not much at that length.

...Galvanised pipe would be more suitable for your air system.

millwrong
06-07-2009, 04:06 PM
How deep are your pockets? 3/4" allows for future air CFM increase. It will take longer to pressurize the system, however the compressor will cycle less often. It will also cool the air allowing moisture traps to do their thing. If you're short on cash, then 1/2" is the cats PJ's.:D

Orrin
06-07-2009, 04:32 PM
I also recommend 3/4" black iron pipe in order to allow for future expansion. That's what I used. Now, I wish I had gone larger because I get a significant pressure drop out at the end of the line.

I've been told that galvanized should not be used because the zinc will release flakes and "hairs" that could cause trouble in pneumatic equipment.

I've never had any trouble from rust in my lines. When I blow out the condensate in the lines I get a little reddish color; but, the moisture also seems to capture the rust and prevent it from causing any problems.

Regards,

Orrin

PTSideshow
06-07-2009, 04:45 PM
Put a good water/moisture trap on the outlet of your compressor, and use the 3/4" black iron, as the flakes and other things from inside the galvanized pipe. If you have a couple drain line pet cocks on the runs and blow it down when you start it up or if it isn't used daily open them up and leave them open between uses. Had 150 feet of black iron pipe in the tunnel to the boiler room from the fanroom where the air compressors were. drains on both ends and never had any trouble.
:D

winchman
06-07-2009, 04:52 PM
Have you used any pre-cut pipe from the box stores lately? The last pieces I bought had threads that were at an angle to the pipe axis, wouldn't seal no matter how tight I got them, or both. If you have liberal tolerances for alignment and love pipe dope, you'll probably be OK.

Roger

uncle pete
06-07-2009, 05:08 PM
Sorry but when I saw the title I was expecting a new airline business that was in operation, Maybe flights to the tarsands in Alberta?

Sorry for the dry humor, Use 3/4 on top of the above reasons it gives you a larger air reservoir of air plus larger pipe then more cooling surface, More money but overall a better system.

Pete

ligito
06-07-2009, 05:19 PM
Thanks, I figured it would be better to go with 3/4.
I currently have that white stuff, for my airlines and want to replace it.
I have dump valves at each air chuck (I only have 3 chucks) and will have another one adjacent to the compressor, maybe even exiting outside.

Quetico Bob
06-07-2009, 05:42 PM
1/2 inch is more than adequate unless you plan on using a sandblaster @ 100psi with a 1/8 tip and the cfm to go with it and of course the huge amperage to drive it. Most of the iron pipe installs Ive seen have been black. Agree, install a moisture separator, post compressor pre line assembly.

Cheers, Bob

lazlo
06-07-2009, 06:06 PM
A good friend and I built our airlines together on a long weekend several years ago. He used 3/4" black pipe, and I used 3/4" copper (this was back before copper cost more than titanium). As far as the installation goes, the black pipe was a pain to get air tight (so the compressor wasn't cycling): we used tape, but pipe dope might have been easier. You also get completely covered in that black sh!t (paint or tar or whatever it is). The copper pipe we had to solder, of course, so I think the net total work (black or copper pipe) was about the same.

We're over at each other's shops all the time and honestly, after the install, neither of us can tell any difference in performance between the two, including the amount of moisture at the outlets.

We followed this Sharpe diagram almost exactly, except I was really short on lateral space, so I had to coil 50 feet of copper pipe to fit on the garage wall above the compressor (the "Still" as some people here have called it) and I left out the u-shaped drip-loops at the air drop tees, since I don't have space for a dead leg. Sharpe recommends a minimum of 3/4":

http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe.nsf/images/pipe-layout-1.gif/$File/pipe-layout-1.gif

A much bigger diagram in .PDF is here:

http://www.sharpe1.com/sharpe/sharpe.nsf/Files/YTCJYTCK/$File/pipe-layout.pdf?OpenElement

.RC.
06-07-2009, 07:05 PM
Why not use high pressure polythene pipe??

ligito
06-07-2009, 07:19 PM
So, which of the 2 from Sharpe, the one with the riser drip, or without--they show both diagrams?

Is this a better method than the one from TP Tools?

http://www.tptools.com/StaticText/airline-piping-diagram.pdf

I just bought a manual pipe threader for $7 at an estate sale--a #10A Craftsman-was that a waste of spare change?

lazlo
06-07-2009, 07:57 PM
So, which of the 2 from Sharpe, the one with the riser drip, or without--they show both diagrams?

I didn't build the drip loops -- its pointless if you don't have a dead leg, and I didn't have the wall space for it.

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 08:09 PM
I did 1" primary black pipe with no drain grade other than the natural drop of the building. Due to height issues with my bridge crane, I didn't do the vertical risers off the primary either (I wanted to, but space wasn't there for it). The system has been in use for about a year and a half now, and I have very little water in any of the 6 drops. I use it all the time, but I only run around with the purge bucket every 6 mo's now because I rarely have anything come out. I've got a high flow (125cfm) coalescing filter on the other side of the tank shut off valve before being fed to the pipes. I do get a lot of moisture in the tank (80gal), so there's not much left once it leaves.

The reason for the 1" primary is that I have 100cfm at the farthest end of the system without it being in a loop (something you might consider depending how much air you think you'll use). I wanted that volume available in the event I wanted to blast something in the driveway - which is an 80' run from the pump to the front garage wall. The price difference for going up another size isn't all that much. All my drops are 1/2".

Check pipe pricing at the steel yard for 24'er's before you spend money on the box store stuff. Sadly, lowes had better quality chinese pipe than any of the yards did here (all rusty). I made them price match HD with every purchase and it worked out. With the current state of fittings supply - pipe dope is your best friend. 90% chance you won't be able to find US made fittings even if your pipe comes from us. :mad:

ligito
06-07-2009, 09:18 PM
I have a 10 ft run from my compressor to the next T that runs across the shop ceiling to the opposite side, for a drop my air lift, then continuing toward the door for another drop.

So you're saying that I don't really need risers?
I can just drop straight down from the T?

I don't understand how a loop is used, or placed, after the compressor.
I do have room on my wall, if I need to hang some form of loop but don't know what it should look like.

madman
06-07-2009, 09:27 PM
I recently did a Black pipe Plumbing Job. Over 250 feet of 1.250 diameter black pipe 4 retractable hose reels and a nitrogen generator. Now i also plumbed in a coller unit BUT the compressor runs way less when the cooler unit is disconected. I have bypass valve system for that. I think the bigger dia the better. If you riun a bunch of air hose having 3.4 or even for the money 1 inch is way better. Then even at the end of a 100 foot hose you have all the pressure you will need. Example rodac inpact gun out to the Garage driveway?

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 09:33 PM
The risers are there to force the air to go up and over an obstacle which keeps the moisture which is lost in the main from flowing down into the drop leg. Put a trap on the bottom of your drop before the ball valve and the water should remain condensed and stuck to the walls as your air makes another 90 into the outbound line.

I don't have any problems with water at the tools.

Here's a shot of my lines in the process of being installed:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/FishyJim/DSC00551.jpg

Just regular superstrut in 1-5/8" thickness on the ceiling, and 5/8" for the walls.

ligito
06-07-2009, 09:40 PM
I recently did a Black pipe Plumbing Job. Over 250 feet of 1.250 diameter black pipe 4 retractable hose reels and a nitrogen generator. Now i also plumbed in a coller unit BUT the compressor runs way less when the cooler unit is disconected. I have bypass valve system for that. I think the bigger dia the better. If you riun a bunch of air hose having 3.4 or even for the money 1 inch is way better. Then even at the end of a 100 foot hose you have all the pressure you will need. Example rodac inpact gun out to the Garage driveway?

Aren't you dating yourself with that Rodac?
I had one 20 years ago, didn't know they were still around.

ligito
06-07-2009, 09:42 PM
Where is the trap in your picture?



The risers are there to force the air to go up and over an obstacle which keeps the moisture which is lost in the main from flowing down into the drop leg. Put a trap on the bottom of your drop before the ball valve and the water should remain condensed and stuck to the walls as your air makes another 90 into the outbound line.

I don't have any problems with water at the tools.

Here's a shot of my lines in the process of being installed:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/FishyJim/DSC00551.jpg

Just regular superstrut in 1-5/8" thickness on the ceiling, and 5/8" for the walls.

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 09:47 PM
The section of nipple below the t where the quick connect is, above where the ball valve is. It's what's clamped to the wall.

How many gallons of condensate do you think you'll collect down there? ;)

ligito
06-07-2009, 10:10 PM
The section of nipple below the t where the quick connect is, above where the ball valve is. It's what's clamped to the wall.

How many gallons of condensate do you think you'll collect down there? ;)

I asked because you mentioned using a trap, but I didn't see one.

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 10:23 PM
No worries. :)

lazlo
06-07-2009, 10:31 PM
Where is the trap in your picture?

Jim doesn't have the drip loops either. I built mine the same way. I wish I would have soldered the waste-trap ball valve coming off at an angle -- if you've been using the airline for awhile, there's a ton of water in the T's, and when you open the in-line ball valves, as shown in Jim's picture, it soaks the drywall.

If you build the drip loops, you won't have nearly as much water in the waste trap valves on each of the main legs -- it will collect in the dead leg.

Charlied
06-07-2009, 10:39 PM
Hi fellows;
I'm no expert, and make no claims other than my own experience. If money is a factor, or not, I've got one for you. 1in PVC: I have had a 96ft run with 10 drops in use for over 12 years and not one problem. The stuff is rated at 600psi, and easy to install. Hell in NC it's used for gas pipe.
Charlied:)

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 10:43 PM
That's what a milk jug is for. :cool: Why would you blast anything with rusty water?

I already said I didn't do the loops because there wasn't enough room with the bridge crane. Here's that same wall after the crane is up:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y242/FishyJim/DSC00850.jpg

This isn't how I have my shop laid out either, it was just a staging configuration for moving another machine across the floor.

wtrueman
06-07-2009, 11:20 PM
For what its worth, I also have a relatively small shop, 1200 sq. ft. I plumbed 1/2 flexible hose (600 psi) from the compressor to where I connected to 1/2 ss pipe. My compressor is outside the building, hung over one of my sliding doors; it is accessible from the inside and fully covered from our "light" rain showers. I check the tank drain weekly from inside and again through a flexible hose. Monthly, I check the compressor oil level and kinda wish I could find one of those old glass oil level indicators so I did not have to climb up to the compressor room. Anyway, the ss pipe connects up to the old cast iron condensor and drain and then connects to 1/2 copper pipe which runs down one side of the shop and also over the top to a center drop which I probably use more than the rest I've got. I've also got a 100 ft hose that goes anywhere else on the property that I've need so far. This is a shop I have been planning for a goodly amount of years and am close to retiring to it. So I am not bragging but have a good amount of time in thinking about what I want. BTW, the ss pipes and ss ball cocks I was able to pick up used from the pulp mill dump before they closed. The copper came at the odd times when fitting, etc, were cheap. I've got three drains other than the compressor. These are the standard copper water pipe valves that I have used. Wayne

Jim Shaper
06-07-2009, 11:40 PM
When I get around to it, I'll be eliminating the 80 gal tank and going to 4 100# lp tanks put above the ceiling of my paint/utility room. When I do that, I'll probably move the pump head and motor up there as well, but I'll install a low oil switch in it before I do.

The tank drain, and the main feeder drain both go via rubber hose out a port in the block to the outside. I drain my tank once a day when in use. That's how I know where the water ends up, because it does collect in the reservoir.

saltmine
06-08-2009, 12:38 AM
We had the whole shop plumbed with black iron pipe at the County vehicle maintenance shop I used to work at. The "Good 'ol Boys" were trying to save money. In the fifteen years I worked there, it was a constant battle with moisture and rust flakes. Rust is iron oxide, which is a pretty nasty abrasive.
Air tools were constantly failing along with tire machines, grinders, and car lifts. I gotta believe the County's motto was "trip over a gold bar to pick up a penny" Fortunately, I have high quality air tools, and they are equipped with inlet screens and I used to oil them frequently. I still had to stop about once a week and clean the inlet screens due to rust flakes clogging the air inlets on most of the air tools I used most.
If you can keep the moisture out of black iron pipes, good. But From experience, I know that's almost completely impossible. (We're in the desert, here, and the humidity seldom exceeds 18%)
If it were my shop, and I had the money, I'd look into the epoxy coated aluminum pipe systems with plastic couplers.
I hate black iron pipes...

wtrueman
06-08-2009, 01:17 AM
Hi Jim: Put those IP (Propane?) tanks up side down and put T's on the outlets. Put drain valves at the bottom of the upside down tanks and you will not have problems for a long time, Wayne.

Evan
06-08-2009, 02:39 AM
(We're in the desert, here, and the humidity seldom exceeds 18%)


That is probably the cause of the problem, not enough water in the lines. Water doesn't cause rust, oxygen does. Water just enables the reaction. If you put iron under water it doesn't rust. If you blow slightly moist air over it it will rust, dry out and then the rust flakes off.

Timo
06-08-2009, 07:39 AM
1in PVC: use for over 12 years and not one problem.
I know this is probably a rhetorical statement but it seems most people are against using PVC for airlines, but it seems there are a few that do us it successfully. Is it possible that the newer PVC is better than the older stuff?

Evan
06-08-2009, 09:12 AM
No, it's still illegal to use for compressed air.

Evan
06-08-2009, 09:32 AM
From a manufacturer of PVC pipe:

http://ixian.ca/pics6/pvc.jpg

JCHannum
06-08-2009, 09:51 AM
PVC is dangerous when used in compressed air lines. Some have had success with smaller, under 1", systems, but it is a potential bomb.

A poorly designed and installed system will have problems regardless of materials used. Black iron is a perfectly good material for compressed air and has been used for decades all over the world. Properly installed and maintained, it will provide clean air. Any system should have appropriate moisture removal and filter/regulator sets at critical application points, such as where air tools are to be used.

If I were to install a system in my shop, I would use copper pipe and sweat solder the joints. The presently available pipe and fittings are usually of such poor quality that installation of a leak free system using them is almost impossible.

Jim Shaper
06-08-2009, 09:51 AM
Hi Jim: Put those IP (Propane?) tanks up side down and put T's on the outlets. Put drain valves at the bottom of the upside down tanks and you will not have problems for a long time, Wayne.

LP not IP. Yep - propane.

Not enough room to put them vertical, and I don't want freezing issues if I mounted them outside (I also don't really want to look at them out there either). I'll be mounting them at a slight angle and welding in drain's at the lowest point.

dwentz
06-08-2009, 10:45 AM
If you have ever seen PVC that was used for 125 PSI air come apart, you would discontinue its use ASAP. I had a buddy that used PVC for air, It failed, and looked like a bomb went off in his shop. Plastic shrapnel took out two windows, went clean threw a drywall wall, and was imbedded in the side of his roll around tool box. I have to say that I could not believe the damage. The system was 4 years old, before it blew. No indication of why it failed. A section of the pipe just disappeared. He was lucky that he was in the other room of the shop when it failed. The compressor was not running, and nothing that he could think of had hit the pipe or anything.

I took mine all out after the incident and replaced it with hard coper.

Dale

jkilroy
06-08-2009, 11:01 AM
I used 1/2" DOT approved Nylon air brake line, uses push connect fittings, love it. I can add a drop in two minutes. Got a 500ft roll so there aren't a bunch of joints to cover the length of the shop (65ft) , go at it in one pull.

bborr01
06-08-2009, 11:29 AM
The factory that I spent my career in had miles of compressed air lines and I never saw our pipefitters use anything but black pipe. The used filters and regulators at all drops, thousands of them.

ligito
06-08-2009, 11:31 AM
I have PVC, that's why I'm changing, I've been enlightened but not lightened.:rolleyes:

Can someone post a picture of the condensor, or still, or whatever you use to get collect the moisture?
And what sources do you use for water traps?

Is it better to buy unthreaded pipe and rent a pipe threader, or is there too much learning curve?

lazlo
06-08-2009, 11:48 AM
Can someone post a picture of the condensor, or still, or whatever you use to get collect the moisture?

I didn't do anything clever, I just followed Sharpe/Devilbiss' airline plumbing recommendations:


3/4" pipe for up to 20 CFM
Slope the pipe back to the compressor 4" per 50 ft
First air drop should be at least 25 feet from the compressor

http://www.autorefinishdevilbiss.com/docs/misc/hosefits.pdf
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/airline.gif

The only thing that really matters is that you have enough pipe run before the first leg to give the air time to cool off and condense the water out. Copper will cool the air down faster (in theory), but black pipe has a lot more mass so it's probably a wash.

My "shop" is tucked into 1/2 of my 2-car garage, so I didn't have the wall space for 25 feet before the first air drop. So I folded-up the 25 feet like an accordion.

If you look at the left elbow junction on the bottom of each section. There's a 90 degree bronze fitting with a purge valve on each one. The condenser coil is upside down on the first picture on the left -- you can see the purge valves there.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0136small.jpghttp://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0137-1small.jpg

JCHannum
06-08-2009, 11:49 AM
Here are some filter/regulator/lubricator units. They are available at most places that handle machine tools, even HF I think. The lubricator is needed if using an air tool, it should not be used for paint guns, tire inflation and general blow down applications.

http://fluids.ingersollrand.com/frls/index.aspx

Threading is up to you, it is simple enough to learn, but the fittings are still problematical.

ligito
06-08-2009, 11:57 AM
I can do the first run outside on my bench and pressure test before mounting on the wall.
Would I be better off to use the pre-threaded pipe and lots of pipe dope, or should I use Teflon tape.

lazlo
06-08-2009, 12:23 PM
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/dot.gif

As far as the installation goes, the black pipe was a pain to get air tight (so the compressor wasn't cycling): we used tape, but pipe dope might have been easier.

madman
06-08-2009, 12:52 PM
I have been using the PINK Pipe tape. Way thicker than the white stuff. Also after wrapping the Thread with tape i also use Pipe dope.

radkins
06-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Put a good water/moisture trap on the outlet of your compressor,


That is absolutely the WORST location for a water trap!! The air coming from the tank is still hot and the moisture will be in vapor form so most of it will simply pass through the separator and condense in the lines. ALWAYS locate the water trap as far downstream from the compressor as possible in order to give the air piping as much chance to cool the air as it can before it enters the trap thus allowing far more of the moisture to be removed.


This is also another reason NOT to use PVC (in addition to the very real dangers of injury) or any other type of plastic line. Plastic is a very poor choice to radiate the heat from the air in the lines and on short piping systems it may not lose much heat at all which will keep the moisture in vapor form and make it nearly impossible to remove.

tattoomike68
06-08-2009, 04:01 PM
A shop I worked at had the grey pvc pipe for thier whole system in a shop with 40 screw machines. One early morning a heater caught a bench and parts washer on fire and every inch of the plastic pipe was garbage from the heat alone.

It took two men 2 and a half weeks just to get the air system working again with STEEL PIPE!

ligito
06-08-2009, 05:05 PM
I bought the 3/4 black iron pipe today.
Does anyone have a picture of the correct way to connect a water collector/condensor (still type)?

If Lazlo's is correct, a picture of the connection to the compressor.

My first air drop is only 11 ft from the compressor but I do have a Tee, where it crosses to the other side of the shop at 10 ft.
I bought enough pipe to make it in an H shape, with one end of the H looping around, since someone said a loop helps to lessen the moisture buildup.

aboard_epsilon
06-08-2009, 05:23 PM
i put mine on the outside of the workshop ..

runs on the outside of the wall ..

means ..more room inside

the water will condense better due to it being colder out there ..most of the time
this only applies in Britain though .
seems to be working well.
all the best.markj

ligito
06-08-2009, 05:43 PM
This is a crude drawing of my layout. Where should I put some unions?
Can someone mark this up with the union locations?

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii319/ligito/Airlines.jpghttp://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii319/ligito/Airlines.jpghttp://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii319/ligito/

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii319/ligito/Airlines.jpg

ligito
06-08-2009, 05:48 PM
Do you mean that you put your condensor on the outside?



i put mine on the outside of the workshop ..

runs on the outside of the wall ..

means ..more room inside

the water will condense better due to it being colder out there ..most of the time
this only applies in Britain though .
seems to be working well.
all the best.markj

aboard_epsilon
06-08-2009, 06:07 PM
nope. the whole length outside acts as the condenser ..

the pipe goes strait out the wall from the comp ..then strait up 7 feet vertically

from then on its on a slope (2 inches in 25 feet) ..and the water runs down into the down pipe that carries on past the regulator separator outlet....the regulator separator outlet only catches a thimble full a days intermittent use.

most seems to collect in the comp... (running down from the outside riser ..about 1/4 a pint in a days intermittent use

weather it be right or wrong ..it works ..ive never seen water droplets on my paint jobs ..and never see water droplets in the exhaust of my air tools.


all the best.markj

Jim Shaper
06-08-2009, 06:42 PM
My IR has solid copper pipe from the pump to the reservoir. Then the outlet from the reservoir has the water separator just past the ball valve before passing through 300psi rubber hose into the solid lines.

Milton quick connects aren't 100% air tight (neither are the rotation joints on hose reels), so rather than letting the tank bleed down, I cut off the exit at night.

.RC.
06-08-2009, 06:48 PM
PVC is dangerous when used in compressed air lines. Some have had success with smaller, under 1", systems, but it is a potential bomb.



That is why you use poly pipe...Don't you blokes have poly pipe in the US???

http://www.polypipe.com.au/

ligito
06-08-2009, 07:02 PM
That is why you use poly pipe...Don't you blokes have poly pipe in the US???

http://www.polypipe.com.au/

We use metal pipe, that way we survive longer and weigh less for the pall bearers.
It's all a matter of consideration for others.:rolleyes:

.RC.
06-08-2009, 07:08 PM
We use metal pipe, that way we survive longer and weigh less for the pall bearers.
It's all a matter of consideration for others.:rolleyes:

polypipe is not PVC

polypipe = polythene

PVC pipe = Poly Vinyl Chloride

high pressure polypipe is rated to so something like 150psi..

Jim Shaper
06-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Poly pipe is used here in sprinkler systems (100' coils for 25 bucks). I'd rather cut off my thumb before I plumbed a permanant installation with it.

JCHannum
06-08-2009, 07:48 PM
That link is for PE irrigation and rural water pipe, about 60psi rating. It is available here, but it is inadequate for most compressed air systems. There are suitable plastics for air systems, but PVC is not one of them.

One of the downsides to many plastics for air systems is that they are not rigid, and unless adequately supported, sag between supports resulting in low spots and water collecting. By the time proper supports are provided, the economic and installation advantages of plastic become minimal.

Jim Shaper
06-08-2009, 11:35 PM
I noticed you posted over on miller looking for further info on where to put the unions. I used a union anywhere that didn't have a T or an elbow.

Essentially, it boiled down to not wanting to have to unscrew a drop leg to add or change something anywhere in the system. When you get to running the pipe, 10' is a good stretch and weight to be hefting (at 1" anyway). Making sections any longer than that is asking for a big pain in the butt down the road. Having too many unions just costs you a little more in hardware up front.

You also asked about how to suspend the pipe from the trusses: What I did was use the standard two piece clamps that hold the pipe to the strut. They were about $1.50 a pop at the time. That ends up cheaper than a nut plate, allthread, bracket, and associated hardware for the bracket to suspend them; but it does tie you into being in direct contact with the superstrut. You can still induce a grade by shimming the superstrut where it's attached to the trusses with plywood or pretty much anything. You don't need much grade for drainage either, just an inch or so in a single span will do it. Hell, shower's are only 1/8" per foot.

I anchored my lines every 4'. That's far more than really necessary, but it did work out well with the number of joints as no joint is unsupported for more than 3' or so.

Just trying to give you some more insight into the "why's" of how I did it.

ligito
06-09-2009, 10:08 AM
Thank you.

PTSideshow
06-09-2009, 10:49 AM
Here is the info for poly pipe in the states

Polyethylene Flexible Pipe NSF and Non-NSF Listed
This pipe is strong, with long life expectancy. It is excellent for water systems, drainage, and many other applications. Not UV resistant. Rated pressure at 73.4F
You will notice that it is rated at a given temp and that it is not UV stabilized or resistant. Means buried or out of the reach of sunlight. the rated pressure is water pressure at the given temp.


Polypropylene Pipe and Fittings
This pipe is for industrial applications involving corrosive media. Polypropylene may be used at temperatures to 150 deg F, in continuous pressure service, and at temperatures to 180 deg F, with gravity flow conditions. Polypropylene is the lightest of all thermoplastics. It has good resistance to strong acids except highly active oxidizers, such as nitric acid. It also has excellent resistance to weak and strong alkalis and to most organic solvents, non-conductor of electricity. Not recommended for pressure above 20 psi applications.

This is rigid and Not recommended for pressure above 20 psi applications


PVC Value Pipe
Service temp. 33 -140F. Not for use with compressed air or gases. Resists chemical attack by most acids, alkalies, salts, fungi and bacterial action. Non-toxic, odorless and tasteless. Resistant to cracking so it is machinable. PSI is based on water at 73F. Schedule 40 is for socket fittings only; threading is not a recommended practice. Schedule 80 pipe can be threaded. Painting is not required for indoor non-exposed installations. For outdoor installation where the piping may be exposed to significant sunlight, we recommend painting; two coats of a white or light-colored, water-base, outdoor latex paint provides added protection. Not U.V. stabilized.

PSI is based on water at 73F. Do not expose to significant sunlight, Not U.V. stabilized.


PVC Pipe
This is schedule 40 and schedule 80 pvc pipe. Schedule 40 is available in gray and white, and is for socket fittings only. It is NSF listed, but can't be threaded. Schedule 80 is available in gray and is for socket or threaded fittings. It can be threaded and is NSF listed. Both have a wide variety of uses in the chemical field and resistance, also in industrial plants, just to name a couple. For UV resistance of PVC pipe and fittings, paint with a white water based latex paint. Under chemical, the service temp is 33-140 F. Pipe is not recommended for use with compressed air or gases. PVC material is Type 1 according to the American Society for Testing Material D-1784. For industrial plants, the PSI is based on water at 73 F. Derate 50% at 110 F and 78% at 140 F. Pipe is round and smooth on the inside and out, resistant to cracking, and made from premium virgin Goodrich gray PVC resin. Is superior to regular commercial grade used for regular plumbing. Round and smooth inside and out. Resistant to cracking. This pipe is manufactured by harvel plastics and is superior in quality to commercial grades of PVC pipe used for regular plumbing. Sch. 40 socket fitting ASTM D-2466; Sch. 80 socket fitting ASTM D-2467; Sch 80 threaded fittings ASTM D-2464. Pipe- ASTM D-1785. PSI is based on water at 73F. Derate 50% at 110F and 78% at 140F. Schedule 40 is for socket fittings only; threading is not a recommended practice. Schedule 80 pipe can be threaded. NSF listed. Schedule 40 white pipe is dual marked as DWV pipe.

All the above are from the US Plastics web site http://www.usplastic.com/

IF you notice among everything else is this:
For industrial plants, the PSI is based on water at 73 F. Derate 50% at 110 F and 78% at 140 F.

And this:Pipe is not recommended for use with compressed air or gases.
And why would anybody follow the recommendations from a trade and testing group.

And yes you can use it and get away with it till it goes pop! :eek: You or your kids or grand kids or a customer may get hurt.

In the Circus there is a saying about people/public that keep wild animals as part of the family.
Its not if they are going to get bit/killed, but when they will You can follow the news stories of the public that have problems with animals. I had a friend that was killed by a big cat that he had raised from a cub. He was in a hurry and forgot a cardinal rule of big cat training.
They don't like new and change He forgot that when he didn't break in the new costume enough and wear it enough, so the new wore off.
It cost him his life in a blink of the eye and one paw swipe.
And to all the stories of the trainers and their happy baby animals that are part of the families. Its called PR journalistic license or B.S.

So yes you could use it, but why with the problems that can result from it:D

Evan
06-09-2009, 10:56 AM
I was walking along in the ditch I am digging and all my dogs could see is my head. From their angle behind the fence there isn't a ditch, just a ridge of loose dirt and a disembodied head moving along the ground. This put them in a complete state of confusion and they wouldn't stop barking at me until I climbed out of the ground so they could see that it wasn't some ants or something carrying off my head.

ligito
06-09-2009, 01:48 PM
I was walking along in the ditch I am digging and all my dogs could see is my head. From their angle behind the fence there isn't a ditch, just a ridge of loose dirt and a disembodied head moving along the ground. This put them in a complete state of confusion and they wouldn't stop barking at me until I climbed out of the ground so they could see that it wasn't some ants or something carrying off my head.

Gotta keep your head, Evan.

derekm
06-09-2009, 06:04 PM
That link is for PE irrigation and rural water pipe, about 60psi rating. It is available here, but it is inadequate for most compressed air systems. There are suitable plastics for air systems, but PVC is not one of them.

One of the downsides to many plastics for air systems is that they are not rigid, and unless adequately supported, sag between supports resulting in low spots and water collecting. By the time proper supports are provided, the economic and installation advantages of plastic become minimal.

I went for PEX inside rigid PVC electric conduit with corrugated pvc bends... still way cheaper than copper and it is very easy to fix and get a good looking, no sag, safe job.

John Stevenson
06-09-2009, 06:11 PM
The UK version of Polypipe is used on North sea oil rigs.

These have to be one of the most safety concious work sites in the world, main piping is done in 4" poly with 2" headers off them and run at 220 psi

I fully agree in not using PVC but why not use a material that is designed for what it is.

Are you sure Capricorn One wasn't for real ?

JCHannum
06-09-2009, 06:27 PM
I don't think anyone is saying not to use a plastic that is intended for compressed air. There are several to choose from and they are quite adequate. Most of my experience is with industrial installations where the cost of the labor to install is a major part of the expense. If you have to pay the cost to run conduit to support the poly lines and then install the lines, the total cost of the job will probably approach or exceed that of sweat copper piping. Once completed, you are faced with the problem of getting at the internal line if additions are needed.

An alternate to cunduit is to use light angle for support. It is not much more expensive, and the tubing is accessable in the event modifications or additions are required.

Home shop installations utilizing essentially free labor have a very different set of parameters and economies.

Quetico Bob
06-09-2009, 06:32 PM
I was wondering why it was every time I went out to cut the property grass this year I was swarmed by black flys. Is it just this area or does it seem worse everywhere?

By the way, ligito has picked up his black pipe and pretty sure he is looking for install help.:)

Cheers, Bob

Duffy
06-09-2009, 06:57 PM
I finally had to throw in two cents. Nobody has mentioned PP, (polypropylene,) pipe. I know it is used for natural gas distribution systems. also, for a cooler, has anyone considered getting an A coil from a junked airconditioner? I would think that a two or three ton coil would work a treat,even without a fan, and it cant be worth very much as scrap, since it is composite cu/al. It would certainly take the pressure. duffy

Evan
06-09-2009, 07:58 PM
Run the cooler coil in a water bath and use the water bath to pre heat your hot water. Save $$$$ at both ends. A water bath will make the cooler ten times more effective, at least.

Quetico Bob
06-09-2009, 08:17 PM
One step further, cone shaped restrictors evenly space throughout the coil and were talking some btus providing the air flow deliverable over 3/4 ID is utilized most of the time.

Cheers, Bob

lakeside53
06-10-2009, 11:52 AM
We do have "plastic" air pipe in the USA - it's a form of ABS. I went to a local auction where the machine shop had thousands of feet installed... Beautifully stuff, rigid, strong... but it will never take off here.. it costs as much a copper and is metric. Installation labor is of course a fraction of the cost of iron pipe, but...

I have a few boxes of parts/valves... now I just need a cheap supply of pipe. Sure wish I'd bid on the pile of garbage that had the pipes!

http://www.durapipe.co.uk/Product/Detail.asp?BID=11

ligito
06-10-2009, 01:19 PM
DeVilbiss says to slope pipes up from the compressor, Sharpe says to slope them down, away from the compressor. Which is preferable?

Evan
06-10-2009, 01:31 PM
I wonder what they do on the Space Station? :D

JCHannum
06-10-2009, 01:32 PM
Either will work. In large systems with long runs, slope the pipe in both directions with the high point in the center of the system. The important thing is to provide a means for condensate removal at the low points wherever they occur.

ligito
06-10-2009, 02:35 PM
I wonder what they do on the Space Station? :D

Slope them to outer space?

lazlo
06-10-2009, 03:28 PM
I wonder what they do on the Space Station? :D

Using an air tool in Zero G would be amusing ;) "Hey Hank -- hand me that air gun..."

ligito
06-11-2009, 10:04 AM
Perhaps they use vacuum tools, rather than air tools.

chadmc5c
06-11-2009, 11:40 AM
I recently did my compressed air system with 3/4 black iron. I have an 80 gal 5 hp compressor under the roof of my lean to outside the shop wall. Connects with a 3/4 braided stainless to the shop (to eliminate vibration noise) and once inside the sho[p goes through a 20 gallon tank (in one end and out the other) to help cool and condense moisture. After that through a refrigerated air drier. At each end point I have a T with a 6 inch nipple on the bottom to collect any condensate that makes it past all the other stuff. I usually get a mist out of those never a hard stream of water. Some of my friends said I was foolish to waste the money on black iron when pvc works just as well they think. We'll see who's foolish after someone has a fire and the pvc lets go and turns the whole shop into a raging blow torch.
Chad

ligito
06-12-2009, 12:47 PM
I am going to look at a compressor again, today.
I want a 5 HP Ingersoll Rand, either single stage, or 2 stage, I haven't let my credit card make up its mind yet.
I haven't used over 125 lbs (for sandblasting) in over 20 years because I didn't have it, I'm not sure if I will need more than the Max 135 of the single stage.

The 2 stage is about double the price of the single stage.

Jim Shaper
06-12-2009, 01:05 PM
Keep an eye on auctions. Any of the good brands (older iron) IR, Quincy, Champion in an industrial format are probably going to out live you.

I bought a 19cfm 2 stage IR T30 (set up for 5hp) for $300 at auction where all it needed was a check valve in the tank ($11 off the shelf at graingers). Get this - they replaced the pressure switch, reed valves, gaskets (whole head kit from what I could tell), and it still leaked down when it wasn't pumping (duh!) then kept a crappy import jobber when they moved (why it was auctioned off) for want of a 15 minute repair.

I opened up the heads (the gaskets cost me $60) to look at the bores and they were spotless! These things are made for far more action than a single man can give them unless you are running it wide open 24/7 and even still they're designed to take it. As long as some knucklehead didn't let it leak it's oil, you've got nothing to fear in buying a quality used pump head.

The new china stuff on the other hand - are you a betting man? Is that $1500 money you want to wager?

ligito
06-12-2009, 01:14 PM
I am 68.:D

I'm looking at either SS5L5, or 2340L5 IR, in single phase.

radkins
06-12-2009, 01:52 PM
I am going to look at a compressor again, today.
I want a 5 HP Ingersoll Rand, either single stage, or 2 stage, I haven't let my credit card make up its mind yet.



I would suggest staying away from the IR single stage for two reasons, first it is developing a reputation for burning out that cheap motor it is equipped with (I know of two of them personally and two more on another forum I visit) and also that ridiculous CFM rating! That thing is rated at well over 18 CFM@90 PSI for a 5 HP single stage which is PURE BS! For a true 5 HP single stage piston compressor even 14 CFM (+/-) is asking a lot so don't base your decision on that ridiculously inflated CFM rating, also that IR single stage compressor is a China import in spite of the Ingersoll name.


A MUCH better choice in my opinion is one of the American built Quincy compressors of an equivalent size since Quincy has gotten their price competitive lately. They come with an American made heavy cast iron pump and a heavy duty Baldor motor.

Boucher
06-12-2009, 03:10 PM
Radkins is right.
I bought a 5HP IR single stage from Tractor Supply. I would not do it again. No serious problems but that sinking feeling in the gut when you have to reset the thermal overload. I am going to install a fan to help with the overall cooling. The noise just doesn't sound right. This is not in the same league as the older IR compressors. It really struggles to get to cutoff. In hindsight I wish that I had bought a better compressor.

ligito
06-12-2009, 08:32 PM
How about the 2 stage?
Model 2340L5