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MickeyD
06-19-2009, 12:43 AM
I was contacted today about making some replacement meat grinder plates that are no longer stocked by the manufacturer. These are the plates with all of the holes that determine how fine meat is ground up. Normally they are made out of hardened steel but the customer thought about making them out of stainless to prevent rusting and look more high tech in their catalog. I have not had much luck machining any wear resistant stainless (only ones who make any money on the job are the tooling vendors) so I am leaning towards something like A2 and having it heat treated. Does anyone have any better idea (especially one that would keep the heat treater out of the game) for material? Any chance of something like 1144 or ETD150 holding up?

A nice cnc lathe with live toys would make this pretty simple, but what I have is a vmc, manual lathe, cold saw, surface grinder, and a nice water cooled diamond hone.

doctor demo
06-19-2009, 12:52 AM
What do You think of making them out of mild steel plate and having them hard chromed?

Steve

Evan
06-19-2009, 03:10 AM
Hard chrome is probably a health hazard. Hard chrome consists of a fine network of microcracks that penetrate to the original substrate. That network of cracks holds oil and produces a self lubricating surface.

It would also probably produce a self contaminating surface if the cracks were loaded with food and a few e. coli.

It doesn't have to be stainless steel to be rust resistant. A lot of high chrome alloys hardly rust at all and are easy enough to machine in the annealed condition. For the application in question the heat treatment doesn't need to be very sophisticated. Heat to red and dunk in oil will do just fine. Use edible oil such as palm oil and the traces will preserve the product and be non-toxic. If you need to draw the temper any ordinary kitchen oven can do a bunch at one time and produce nice color as well. That would probably sell as well as SS, maybe better to the "grind your own meat" crowd.

Carm
06-19-2009, 05:23 AM
Hard chrome isn't a bad idea. One should assume the raw meat is already contaminated.
A key issue with the plates is a sharp juncture between hole and plate, burr free. Plating may tend to soften that arris.

GKman
06-19-2009, 06:48 AM
I've seen some perforated stainless jobs around the laser cutting table at the local fab shop. That's my idea of tooling to cut stainless.

JCHannum
06-19-2009, 07:11 AM
It would be a good idea to check either with the FDA or NSF for approved materials. Sanitation is a major consideration when selecting materials that will be in direct contact with food. Stainless and maybe some high chrome alloys should be OK, but hard chrome is probably not due to potential for flaking, rust and bacteriological contamination.

If the plates are to be sold for use in commercial establishments, the material will need to be on the approved list and proper documentation will be required to substantiate its makeup.

Boucher
06-19-2009, 08:12 AM
These things have been around and working for a long time and are not that expensive. This is probably not a nitch that would be that rewarding to fill? For personal use, I enjoy reinventing the wheel so to speak. Lawyers and the product Liability sure put a damper on the commercial version of that concept.

MickeyD
06-19-2009, 09:52 AM
These guys are a service shop/parts supplier for food service machinery, and with some consolidation in the industry these commonly lost pieces have good but older grinders sidelined. They have been buying used plates on ebay, but that is a crap shoot. Presently they are going through about a hundred plate sets a year (both current production and discontinued parts) so it could be a nice little niche. Hard chrome is out because of cost, and other available sizes are listed as hardened tool steel, so that looks like the industry standard.

dp
06-19-2009, 10:14 AM
Makes me cringe to see people run meat through any process and then toss it on a wood butcher block for final prep. And then later use that same (rinsed, of course) butcher block to chop carrots/celery/onions/lettuce... bleh!

Many of the cast iron grinder bodies are porous and need to be treated to proper cleansing between uses. Same with the rotary cutters and disks. Any good restaurant should have the capability to deal with the problem, and any home with a modern dish washer can do a good job in the dry cycle. Hand-washed equipment is another story. All pots and pans here get put on the stove top after washing and heated until they're smoking.

As for the cutter disks, on mine the only wear is the edges of the holes which I dress from time to time. I also dress the blade, of course. It may be the type I use but the rotating blade is not in contact with the perf disk during grinding. "Dry" turning will cause metal on metal contact, but I don't do that. All my grinders are hand-crank, though. Electrics may create a different situation. I also use a dab of olive oil during grinding.

Evan
06-19-2009, 10:29 AM
If you are going to use tool steel try seeing if you can find O6 tool steel. It's used for punches and dies but has one main feature that sets it apart from other tool steels. It has the highest machinability rating of any tool steel. I have used it and it is a pleasure to work with. Superb finish is easy and it machines well dry as it has an excess of free carbon. Not enough to be dirty like cast iron but enough to make it self lubricating both when machining and in use.

A.K. Boomer
06-19-2009, 11:24 AM
Hard chrome isn't a bad idea. One should assume the raw meat is already contaminated.
A key issue with the plates is a sharp juncture between hole and plate, burr free. Plating may tend to soften that arris.


I think its a terrible idea, flexing, age, poor adhesion --- one piece falls off and its a little razor blade ready to slice someones throat or intestines...

wierdscience
06-19-2009, 11:43 AM
A lot of the old grinder plates where chilled cast iron.Gotta remember we're cutting meat,not Inconell;)

Me,I would do the A-2,no need for a heat treater,just a stack of firebricks and a temp stick will do.

Evan
06-19-2009, 12:02 PM
A lot of the old grinder plates where chilled cast iron.Gotta remember we're cutting meat,not Inconell



Chilled cast iron will cut inconel. It can be as high a RC65. :eek:

I cut quite a bit of it using those cast iron dumbell plates making my latest lathe. I can think of about a 1000 different materials I would rather use...

lazlo
06-19-2009, 01:37 PM
It would be a good idea to check either with the FDA or NSF for approved materials. Sanitation is a major consideration when selecting materials that will be in direct contact with food.

Like Jim says, anything you make/machine/weld that's going to come into contact with food is subject to FDA material and inspection guidelines that would make an OSHA inspector blush.

philbur
06-19-2009, 02:31 PM
Presumably worn plates can be resharpened several times by a quick skim with a surface grinder.

Phil

derekm
06-19-2009, 04:07 PM
Makes me cringe to see people run meat through any process and then toss it on a wood butcher block for final prep. And then later use that same (rinsed, of course) butcher block to chop carrots/celery/onions/lettuce... bleh!

....

Well you might cringe but its been found that wood has natural bactericides in it... so if they use the old time approach of using a wire brush to clean the wood and periodical expose new wood it is infact safer than plastic.

Wood is better than plastic and sawdust on the floor is good? (asorbent and anti baacterial) who would have known it???

Evan
06-19-2009, 04:10 PM
That only holds true if you have the right kind of wood. Oak for instance contains tannin which will kill bacteria but now they have rated it as a carcinogen...:rolleyes:

philbur
06-19-2009, 04:20 PM
I've seen similar reports where testing had shown that wood chopping blocks handled correctly where more germ free than plastic.

Phil


Well you might cringe but its been found that wood has natural bactericides in it... so if they use the old time approach of using a wire brush to clean the wood and periodical expose new wood it is infact safer than plastic.

Wood is better than plastic and sawdust on the floor is good? (asorbent and anti baacterial) who would have known it???

Peter N
06-19-2009, 05:27 PM
You can use a 416 stainless for nice easy machining, or a 420 which machines almost as easily but can be subsequently hardened.

DON'T chrome it, very bad idea.

Peter

doctor demo
06-19-2009, 08:10 PM
Hard chrome is probably a health hazard. Hard chrome consists of a fine network of microcracks that penetrate to the original substrate. That network of cracks holds oil and produces a self lubricating surface.

It would also probably produce a self contaminating surface if the cracks were loaded with food and a few e. coli.

.

The members on this HSM site are great.To all of You that shot down My hard chrome idea, THANK YOU....I don't know where My head was when I suggested that. I know better than that 99% of the time, I guess last night was the 1% time.:o

Steve













t

oldtiffie
06-19-2009, 08:10 PM
That might be chroming in the US and UK and you think that it might be dangerous.

This is chroming here in OZ:


What is chroming (inhaling dangerous substances or volatile substance misuse)?

Chroming or the ingesting of a dangerous substance is not an offence of itself.

Police may search you if it appears you have, are or are about to inhale a potentially harmful substance.

Police can ask you to explain why you have the potentially harmful thing and if you do not give them a reasonable explanation they can take it from you and will not give it back.

Police have powers to detain you until you can be taken to a safe place (such as a hospital or your home) where you can receive the treatment and care necessary to help you recover from the effects of chroming.

There must be someone at the safe place who will agree to provide care for you.

The police may not release you to a place of safety if your behaviour poses a risk of harm to other people.

You may leave a place of safety unless you are kept there under an order like at a hospital under a mental health order.

It is an offence for a person to sell you a harmful substance such as paint or glue or methylated spirits if the seller believes you intend to ingest or inhale it.

from:
http://www.legalaid.qld.gov.au/Legal+Information/Young+people/Your+body+and+health/Drugs+and+chroming.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhalant

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=chroming&meta=&aq=0&oq=chromin

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=chroming&meta=&aq=0&oq=chromin

And which end of the meat-grinder (= "mincer" here in OZ) do I sniff at?

If I stick my dick into it will that make the meat grinder into an organ grinder? And what about the monkey??

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=organ+grinder+monkey&meta=&aq=0&oq=organ+grinder

I need to know so that I can get that bloody monkey off my back.

I'm all chromed out!!

The mind boggles just thinking about it?

.RC.
06-19-2009, 10:10 PM
Are commercial ones made out of stainless steel??? If not there must be a damn good reason why they aren't...

MickeyD
06-19-2009, 10:19 PM
The samples that I was given are all hardened non-stainless steel, and the commercially available ones (the ones that are the wrong size) are advertised as tool steel. From what I was told, rust is not a problem, they just get lost/thrown out when they have them apart for cleaning, so they are considered consumable.

oldtiffie
06-20-2009, 12:14 AM
Micky.

I think you might be right with the hardened and non-chromed cutting discs for the mincer.

When I was a Facilities Officer in a large Defence establishment, some of my work involved major Kitchen (Galley) upgrades and refurbishment which included all the cooking equipment. Some kitchens were very big, others were relatively small. It included mincers (meat grinders in the US). They ranged from the large and medium (US-made) "Hobart" to the UK/locally-made "Kenwood Chef" models.

In all cases the discs and the cutters were NOT chromed but were "hardened" ("tool-steel"??). They had to meet the most stringent of mandatory standards.

All of those machines are used in commercial kitchens from Hotels, Restaurants, cafés etc.

The "Kenwood" "Chef" is and has been used in small commercial kitchens and domestic use since forever - same applies to some extent to "Sunbeam" "Mix-Masters". They can be bought for use many hardware/"Home-goods" stores here for all of those uses.

My wife who has had several "Mix-Masters" has a fully-optioned "Chef" - which she swears by.

Here are some pics of the "Chef" and the "business end" of the grinder/mincer - not a bit of chrome in sight - or needed. I have only had to put the cutter head and discs under the surface grinder once. Spares are readily available just as these are:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Kenwood1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Kenwood2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Kenwood3.jpg

.RC.
06-20-2009, 02:46 AM
The samples that I was given are all hardened non-stainless steel, and the commercially available ones (the ones that are the wrong size) are advertised as tool steel. From what I was told, rust is not a problem, they just get lost/thrown out when they have them apart for cleaning, so they are considered consumable.

Si given they are not made out of stainless (where there must be a damned good reason since nearly all food handling equipment is mandated to be either stainless or plastic) I would make them out of oil hardening tool steel and surface grind them after hardening..

wbleeker
06-20-2009, 03:22 AM
I am not to sure about your US made Hobart Machinery, don't want to upset anyone either, but I have in my pieshop an SE500 HOBART mixer made in England ! Old wiki might be wrong methinks!
Will

oldtiffie
06-20-2009, 03:52 AM
Thanks Will - just for once I "winged" it - and didn't use "wiki" (which will probably be right) and fell flat on my ar$e - again. As long as it wasn't made in "Tassie" (for the non-OZ members Tasmania aka "Tassie" is our southern-most State and Hobart is its capital city).

Just as a matter of interest - I can't remember - what are the dough-hooks and the rest of the accessories made of and coated with? We used to send our mixing bowls and some of the accessories "out" to specialist contractors to be repaired/reconditioned.

Some here who worry a lot about "cleanliness, chrome etc." should see the "workings" of a potato/vegetable peeler!!!

wbleeker
06-20-2009, 04:49 AM
Tiffie I have seen (and had) doughhooks that were either steel and tinned or just plain aluminium, which is the current preferred metal of choice, most mixing bowls these days are stainless, earlier ones were tinned steel. There are still a few blokes getting around who re-tin these on site and charge an absoloute fortune for doing this.
Will

oldtiffie
06-20-2009, 06:44 AM
Thanks Will - appreciated.

Its no wonder our accounting people questioned the cost and just what the plating was - as well as who and how many of us were getting "kick-backs"!!!