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Boucher
06-30-2009, 11:10 AM
I have a 8" Yuasa Mill Vise mounted on a rotating base on my Bridgeport. The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature. I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?

Fasttrack
06-30-2009, 11:23 AM
I use a rotating base every now and then. They can be quite handy when you need them. I also find they are easier to square up since there is just one pivot.

Tramming the mill is an important "skill" to develop. It will go out of tram naturally as a result of heavy cuts. Bridgeports (or clones) are very easy to tram. Just take your time and be patient. I was told to always start with the X axis first, but I don't know that it really matters.

knedvecki
06-30-2009, 12:12 PM
I like to use an Indicol to tram my head and usually do about a 12 inch diameter sweep of the table with about .005 inch preload on my last word. Here is a listing on an Indicol which allows you to indicate a hole in with out removing the tool / cutter, (also available from Enco) .
http://www.penntoolco.com/catalog/products/products.cfm?categoryID=583

Mcgyver
06-30-2009, 12:19 PM
this subject comes up from time to time, most it seems including me view the rotating base as a detriment, potential source of error and cuts into daylight....but if it serves you, peace.

agree with FT on tramming the mill, its something you do all the time, not just after moving the head (which is another feature i almost never use)

btw, if you do move the head, make sure you have a spotter. Those worm gears shouldn't take all the weight and there have been injuries and at least one death from heads falling esp on bigger mills

lazlo
06-30-2009, 01:02 PM
this subject comes up from time to time, most it seems including me view the rotating base as a detriment, potential source of error and cuts into daylight....but if it serves you, peace.

FWIW: I have rotating bases for all my mill vises, and I've never used them. On the Millrite, it was because of the daylight issue. Now, with my Excello, I have plenty of space under the quill, but I'd still rather have the precision of a rotab if I'm cutting an angle.

Fasttrack
06-30-2009, 02:07 PM
Hmm ... good thoughts on the swivel base. I've only used them in shops that didn't have rotary tables. Now that I own that 2D (rotary head mill) I bought a Parlec vise without a swivel base. I figured it wouldn't be neccessary with the rotary head feature. If you have a rotab, you probably don't need the swivel base. Nothing pisses me off more than taking a heavy hogging cut and watching the vise slip away from perpindicularity. Not that I can really blame the vise ... I don't think these vises were intended to do what I was doing with them.

Jim Shaper
06-30-2009, 02:56 PM
Tramming your head should be a routine you get into. At least check it periodically!

Having just finished my first year's machinist program (it was necessary to get to the advanced courses), I saw many newbies struggling to tram the head. They'd take hours. It's just not that difficult once you "get it" (the procedure, that is). :)

MickeyD
06-30-2009, 03:38 PM
I have one on a little 4" vise that I use on average once a year, normally on something where accuracy is not that important like holes in a mounting bracket or making an adjustment slot. None of my 6" vises have them and I have never needed one. My take is that if it comes free with a vise, take it. If not, I would not spend good money for one unless a project demanded it.

philbur
06-30-2009, 03:42 PM
Fit the rotating base when you need it. Leave it on the shelf the rest of the time, simple.

Phil:)


I have a 8" Yuasa Mill Vise mounted on a rotating base on my Bridgeport. The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature. I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?

BadDog
06-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Fit the rotating base when you need it. Leave it on the shelf the rest of the time, simple.

Phil:)
I did that for a while, kept the base mounted for a while... Really didn't seem to be enough difference to notice, so I've lately just left it in place.

Must just be me, but lately I seem to find myself semi-frequently doing non-critical (often just aesthetic) cuts on an angle. Saturday night I needed to extend the slots on a bracket for my motorcycle by approximately 0.100 (fitting a new seat). But they were at some random angle to the otherwise square bracket. Loosen the vise, kick it around and eye-ball the angle, drop a 1/4" EM into the slot and crank, swing back and dial the vise square, done...

Jim Shaper
06-30-2009, 04:47 PM
I did that for a while, kept the base mounted for a while... Really didn't seem to be enough difference to notice, so I've lately just left it in place.

Must just be me, but lately I seem to find myself semi-frequently doing non-critical (often just aesthetic) cuts on an angle. Saturday night I needed to extend the slots on a bracket for my motorcycle by approximately 0.100 (fitting a new seat). But they were at some random angle to the otherwise square bracket. Loosen the vise, kick it around and eye-ball the angle, drop a 1/4" EM into the slot and crank, swing back and dial the vise square, done...

You realize you could've plunge cut the needed increase in length via interpolating your position off the end of the slot, right? ;) Since .100 is well under the .125 center line of that .250 end mill.

BadDog
06-30-2009, 06:47 PM
Shhh, don't tell anyone... :D

Actually, the initial plan was to use a smaller EM as the slot was metric and smaller than 0.250 wide. That would have been touch off on side, crank out, back, over, repeat. But I then decided to just do the 1/4" rather than risk my only remaining "good" 3/16 EM on a bracket that couldn't really be fully stabilized (Z bracket had to be clamped on bottom, milled on top, ~14ga material). And yes, I did plunge it with a 1/4 EM, but alignment by eye was easy over the slot, then crank out to where I wanted (shouldn't really have said "drop in slot and crank for this *specific* job, was more a general comment). Resetting square with the rotary base took about 1 minute or less. Just quick-n-dirty...

Jim Shaper
06-30-2009, 07:20 PM
Not moving it at all would've saved you 5 mins. :D


I hear ya about the original intentions though. I've done more than my share of "this'll only take a second" and 20 mins later you're still working on it.:o

BadDog
06-30-2009, 07:34 PM
Yeah yeah, hindsight is a wonderful thing. :o

x39
06-30-2009, 07:59 PM
Fit the rotating base when you need it. Leave it on the shelf the rest of the time, simple.
Works for me too. Added benefits are the vise is lighter to move around, and increased clearance under the spindle.

oldtiffie
07-01-2009, 09:56 AM
I have a 8" Yuasa Mill Vise mounted on a rotating base on my Bridgeport. The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature. I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?

Byron,

This is by way of a "bump" (to the front) where I will see it.

I have been following this thread and will respond to it later as I haven't had the time to repond earlier.

I am not sure that your questions were answered as well as they might have been in parts. Or perhaps they need to be explored a little more.

There are a few matters and assumptions that I'd like to address as well.

I hope to be back at it in the next 48 hours.

bborr01
07-01-2009, 11:08 AM
I'm surprised nobody has brought up the biggest reason that most machinists don't leave the swivel on their vise. Rigidity. If you are hogging out steel with lets say a 3/4 inch ruff n cut (corncob cutter) or otherwise putting a heavy load on the mill, having a swivel under the vise raises the vise from the table and costs you rigidity. Many shops have their swivels on a rack somewhere collecting dust. I recently bought a second hand Bridgeport that came with a Kurt vise. No swivel. I asked the owner of the defunct shop if he had the swivel for the vise and he told me "we threw them out in the scrap bin yesterday and they hauled it away this morning. Nobody used them anyway".

As far as re-tramming regularly, unless you have a wreck the head should not move unless you move it. No need to constantly re-check the tram. If the head is moving under normal machining conditions, you probably don't have the clamping bolts tight enough on the head. At least on a Bridgeport or clone. I cant say on the small import mills.
Brian

oldtiffie
07-02-2009, 01:53 AM
Originally Posted by Boucher
I have a 8" Yuasa Mill Vise mounted on a rotating base on my Bridgeport. The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature. I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?


Byron,

This is by way of a "bump" (to the front) where I will see it.

I have been following this thread and will respond to it later as I haven't had the time to respond earlier.

I am not sure that your questions were answered as well as they might have been in parts. Or perhaps they need to be explored a little more.

There are a few matters and assumptions that I'd like to address as well.

I hope to be back at it in the next 48 hours.

Byron,

this is going to take a while, so I will spread my response over several posts as time permits and answer your two questions separately:
- first this one:


I have a .............. vise mounted on a rotating base ........... The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature.

and then this one:

I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?

The first thing that comes to mind about the vise - with or without the rotating base - is that despite the literal and figurative "hammering" that it/they get is the apparent belief that they are and remain accurate under all conditions and rarely if ever get checked to see if they are in fact accurate.

The bases of both the vice itself as well as the rotating base must be flat to a very high order. The top faces of both the vise body (aka "fixed jaw") and the rotating base must each be not only very flat but very accurately parallel to the respective bases.

Both the top/work face of the vice fixed jaw as well as the top of the rotating base are assumed to be and should be very parallel to the table of the mill itself so that the accuracy of the "tram" to the mill table is replicated on both the top of the fixed base as well as the top face of the fixed jaw (part of the body of the vise).

I wonder too just how square the clamping face of the fixed jaw is to being perpendicular to the mill table. A lot make a lot of comment about "true-ing" the fixed jaw to the "X" traverse but I rarely hear anyone mention the verticality of the fixed jaw.

There is no real practical way to completely eliminate moving jaw "lift" although some very creative ways have been used to minimise it to quite low orders of magnitude.

There are some pretty big forces applied to and by a vice under "normal" circumstances - let alone when it is "assisted" with a "cheater" and a "big effin' hammer" (aka BFH).

All too often too much force is applied to a vice to the extent that expecting any real accuracy is a bit unrealistic.

All too often too, "stops" are not fixed the mill table and applied to the vice and the job as these stops, if applied correctly, will apply considerable longitudinal thrust resistance (parallel to the face of the jaws as well as at right angles to the side face/s of the vice fixed jaw and the vise body - and the work-piece. These together should enable considerable reduction in the force applied to close the vise jaws "to stop the job moving in the vise" as well as the clamping force required to clamp the vise (via the table t-nuts) to the mill table.

There is nothing mandatory about having to only use the tabs/slots normally provided at the ends and sides of the vise body (unless it is bolted to the vise rotating base) or the two normally provided tabs/slots provided in the rotating base to ultimately clamp the vice to the mill table.

As there is so much apparent concern about "rigidity" (or the loss of some of it if the vise is used on a rotating base), then as/if the job needs to be held in a vise instead of being clamped directly to the mill table, then it seems that adding a rotary table - onto which a vise may need to fixed to clamp the job - to the mix will be less rigid than clamping the job to the rotary table.

If the expense, inconvenience and lack of rigidity can be reduced by clamping the vise directly to the mill table - so much better all round.

I think that can be achieved in many cases.

In my next post I will address the forces at work in/on a vice as well as how to easily set an angle just as accurately as a rotary table without the need for a rotary table.

oldtiffie
07-04-2009, 06:33 AM
Oops - posted too early - later.

oldtiffie
07-04-2009, 07:17 AM
Byron,

this is going to take a while, so I will spread my response over several posts as time permits and answer your two questions separately:


- first - in this post - this one:



I have a .............. vise mounted on a rotating base ........... The base was used to get the vise to the right height to work on gun stocks. I have never used it. How often do you guys use this feature.

and in a later post - this one:



I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?



...................................
..................................

In my next post I will address the forces at work in/on a vice as well as how to easily set an angle just as accurately as a rotary table without the need for a rotary table.

OK - so here we go as promised:


Next - setting the angles on a vise without a rotary table:
Here are my "Vertex" angle blocks that are accurate to 0.0001" over 3" and are so flat that they can be wrung together like "slip (aka "Joe") blocks. They go down to 1/4 of a degree.



There are some quite good ones at CDCOtools.com (USA) - item 35116 (down to 1 degree) - for US$22 - which is a good buy - particularly if it saves you buying or using a rotary table.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/measuring/Angleplates1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/measuring/Angleplates2.jpg

and here they are being used - with my digital bevel guage to set and angle of 25/65 degrees

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/measuring/Angleplates3.jpg

The set-up is pretty well self explanatory as I can set the angle required at an accuracy of 0.1 degree (10 minutes) which is the same as most vernier and digital protractors.

tan 0.1 = 0.0017 which is +/- 0.0017" per inch.

The angle blocks with and accuracy equal to or better than 0.0001" per 1" (yet better than "1 tenth" per inch) are accurate to +/- 20 arc seconds which is as accurate as most rotary tables.

Here is a sketch that shows the settings for intermediate values of angles that are or can be set with a test dial indicator (TDI) for values less than and up to 1 degree. It is essential that the axis of the TDI be at right angles to the face of th angle block as we are using it as a measuring device here and not as a comparator.

I have also included a sketch of the forces that apply to a machine vice - which - to put it mildly - are "considerable" if too much force is applied to the handle on the lead-screw. A lot of this stress - and resultant strain - can be reduced by using work stops on the mill table ans applied to both the vise and the work in the vise.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Sketches/Vicestrainandangles1.jpg

Whether or not you use the vise rotary base or not is a matter for you to decide.

So - some very high degrees of angular accuracy can be achieved with or without a vice rotary base or a rotary table.

If you really do want your vice to be and remain a precision tool - treat it like one - and NOT like a bloody big "G" clamp.

I hope that this has been of interest and use.

I will address this question and matters relating to it in a later post or posts.



I have also been reluctant to Tilt the head on my mill. I have several projects that are going to require these moves. Do you have any Tips on resetting or Tramming the Head?

x39
07-04-2009, 10:38 AM
A lot make a lot of comment about "true-ing" the fixed jaw to the "X" traverse but I rarely hear anyone mention the verticality of the fixed jaw
Good point. I have an old Bridgeport brand vise that I had to shim the fixed jaw on to achieve verticality. Not a problem I've encountered often, but overlooking it can lead to spoiled parts.

BadDog
07-04-2009, 04:07 PM
Nice post Tiffie (and I love your drawings). I've got that same set of angle blocks and like them well.

I've used them just placed on top of my Kurt clone braced against the back of the jaw. Easier to set and dial, and those surfaces are remarkably accurate (parallel, perpindicular), though if it "really" mattered (almost never does for my stuff), I would place it inside against the fixed jaw. In fact, I usually don't even need to dial them, but rather I just need "about 15*" or something, and I eye-ball the traversal of a pointy wiggler.

oldtiffie
07-05-2009, 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by oldtiffie
A lot make a lot of comment about "true-ing" the fixed jaw to the "X" traverse but I rarely hear anyone mention the verticality of the fixed jaw


Good point. I have an old Bridgeport brand vise that I had to shim the fixed jaw on to achieve verticality. Not a problem I've encountered often, but overlooking it can lead to spoiled parts.


Nice post Tiffie (and I love your drawings). I've got that same set of angle blocks and like them well.

I've used them just placed on top of my Kurt clone braced against the back of the jaw. Easier to set and dial, and those surfaces are remarkably accurate (parallel, perpindicular), though if it "really" mattered (almost never does for my stuff), I would place it inside against the fixed jaw. In fact, I usually don't even need to dial them, but rather I just need "about 15*" or something, and I eye-ball the traversal of a pointy wiggler.

Thanks fellas.

I will address the matter of squaring the fixed jaw etc. as part of my next series of posts on this thread as regards "tramming" and fly-cutting vs. "end-milling" for flat surfaces.

It might not seem to be connected - but it is.

More later.

dp
07-05-2009, 01:26 AM
Slight aside, but I've wondered about this before regarding measuring tools such as the angles in Tiffie's photo. Nobody seems to make them in 1,2,4,8,16,32,64... increments (powers of 2 as in computers). It requires just a few to generate any angle. Just curious and enjoying the thread.

oldtiffie
07-08-2009, 09:58 AM
This is just "bump" to keep it where I will see it.

I haven't forgotten it as I intend to continue it as advised previously - but it may take a few days yet.

Ken_Shea
07-08-2009, 10:16 AM
OT,
You go to a lot of effort to not just say but also explain, in most all your post.

Thanks
Ken

oldtiffie
07-08-2009, 12:20 PM
Thanks Ken.

I usually want to know the "why" behind the "what" as I don't like it when I'm told either "because I say so" or the person who says it gets too upset if I pursue the matter within reason.

Its incumbent upon me to practice what I preach in that regard - again within reason.

If I am going to think it out before I reply, its not a real problem to type it as I saw it.

I really do want to know - with reasons - why I get something wrong - and to acknowledge that advice. I have no problems at all with admitting and/or apologising when I am wrong either.

If I can do someone some good in the process, that's a real bonus - and very satisfying.

Mcgyver
07-08-2009, 12:21 PM
Good point. I have an old Bridgeport brand vise that I had to shim the fixed jaw on to achieve verticality. Not a problem I've encountered often, but overlooking it can lead to spoiled parts.

....that's vise rebuilding time....:)

Fasttrack
07-08-2009, 12:30 PM
X39-
Enco had a nice 6" Parlec vise on sale for $380 - still big bucks, but it's a heck of a nice vise. Made in USA with a 10 year warranty and specs that were tighter than the comparably priced Kurt that I looked at. I'm very happy with it - it makes those bridgeport vises look like a bench vise.

Maybe you can wish for a new vise for Christmas, instead of having to shim that worn out BP vise ... ;) :)

Sometime I will post a thread in response to OT, showing my way of setting a precise angle without using angle blocks or a rotary table. It does require, however, a K&T 2D mill ... :D

oldtiffie
07-08-2009, 01:43 PM
.................................................
...............................................

Sometime I will post a thread in response to OT, showing my way of setting a precise angle without using angle blocks or a rotary table. It does require, however, a K&T 2D mill ... :D

I seriously hope you do FT as I seem to recall a previous post of yours about that mill. It was incredible.

I had more "Well I'll be buggered" moments in those posts than I've had in most others.

I really, really am looking forward to that post - and I mean it - in the best possible way.

After seeing your posts, I reckon I could imagine a lot - but not all - of what it can do.

Many thanks.

Fasttrack
07-08-2009, 02:22 PM
After seeing your posts, I reckon I could imagine a lot - but not all - of what it can do.



I've read through the manual and played with some of the features and I still don't think I can imagine all of what it can do :D Unfortunately, I am doing research (working on the ATLAS detector reconstruction algorithms) right now and am about 7 hours away from my machines :( It will be a little while before I can really get to making chips again. I plan on using the mill to make my clapper box, and I think that will make for a good post.

lazlo
07-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Sometime I will post a thread in response to OT, showing my way of setting a precise angle without using angle blocks or a rotary table. It does require, however, a K&T 2D mill ... :D

Uhhh, what's the point of a rotary table if you have a rotary head mill? It's like a giant cherrying head, isn't it? Can't you set stops on the rotary head at precise locations?

Fasttrack
07-08-2009, 05:22 PM
Uhhh, what's the point of a rotary table if you have a rotary head mill? It's like a giant cherrying head, isn't it? Can't you set stops on the rotary head at precise locations?

Exactly. I said I was going to show my method which DOES NOT require a rotary table, nor does it require a set of angle blocks. It DOES require a K&T 2D, though ;)

BadDog
07-08-2009, 07:16 PM
Just currious, but what are the radius limits of the 2D?

Fasttrack
07-08-2009, 07:20 PM
Radius out to 4" - actually you can push it to just a little over 4". 4" is where the major graduations stop and then you've got about another .1" or so before it stops.

So it's great for most of things I'm likely to do, but it doesn't replace those monster 20" rotabs :D