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Pherdie
07-03-2009, 01:35 AM
Has anyone dealt with the EBay vendor 'carbide_diamond_tooling' for the purchase of CBN wheels? If so, your vendor experience and product evaluation would be appreciated.

Any other recommendations of sources of 4" CBN wheels? How about grit sizing for re-grinding HSS (lathe tools, reamers, taps, etc.) tooling??

Fred

oldtiffie
07-03-2009, 03:59 AM
http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Data/Search/results.asp?I_Keywords=cbn&S_search=All&S_Mode=All&Search=Go

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Data/Element/Node/ProductLine/product_Line_edit.asp?ele_ch_id=L00000000000000039 59

Evan is pretty well "into" CBN wheels as well.

thistle
07-03-2009, 07:46 AM
cannot say anything good about the first,

but Evans wife sold me a couple of wheels, good price great service.

Swarf&Sparks
07-03-2009, 12:33 PM
Why CBN for HSS? :confused:

99% of my lathe tooling is HSS and all I use is a Norton white wheel.
Can't remember the number and I aint goin out to look, it's too damn cold!

The white wheel cuts fast, clean and cool, with a beautiful finish on the tool. A quick tidy up with a diamond hone (the type you get in fishing/camping stores) and you're all set.

A lot of my work is 316SS and other "obstinate" alloys.
No prob with a sharp HSS tool and flood suds.

Evan
07-03-2009, 01:00 PM
The primary use for CBN wheels if to sharpen HSS to an accurate profile or dimension. The wheel doesn't wear very quickly and will maintain the desired dimensions when grinding to a specific shape and size. This especially applies to fixtured and CNC grinding of tooling.
BTW, my wife is not at work today. She will be back on Tuesday.

Swarf&Sparks
07-03-2009, 01:03 PM
Sure Evan, I can understand jig grinders for CNC qualified tooling to ISOxxxx, just can't see the point for HSM or small shop use, even if it is CNC.

Thomas Staubo
07-03-2009, 01:31 PM
I have two general questions:

1. When comparing AlOx, CBN and diamond grinding wheels; does CBN and diamond remove material faster and/or cooler than AlOx? (on e.g. HSS tools)

2. Are the pink and pale blue grinding wheels also AlOx? And are they any special compared to the white ones?


.

Bill Pace
07-03-2009, 02:36 PM
Ive got a diamond and a CBN in 5" cups from CDCO and I am just amazed at the difference it has made in the upkeep of my cutting tools.

My primary reason for the CBN at the time of purchase was getting around the mountains of that horrible grit that seems to be jet propelled off the AO wheels, - and not having to dress the wheel. Since I have been using it not only have I practically eliminated the dust/grit problem, but have been amazed with the use of it in the overall dressing of the tool, just much simpler, quicker,- youve always got that crisp sharp edge to work with.

When making up a new profile on a HSS lathe bit, I'll do the rough-out of the shape on the belt sander or the 4" hand grinder and then do the finishing shape on the CBN.

Diamonds the same way with the difference between a green wheel and it ... just another whole way to dress carbide.

Evan
07-03-2009, 03:01 PM
The color of most wheels is a matter of decoration and identification within a particular manufacturers line of products. It has nothing to do with the actual intended use of an aluminum oxide wheel. AlOx is colorless so to make a pink or blue or whatever colour wheel dye is added when the wheels are pressed and baked. There are no industry wide standards for what a particular colour signifies. Each manufacturer uses a different system and many manufacturers also sell their products under off brand names that can't br traced back to the real name brand. It gives them a way to sell below spec product.

Thomas Staubo
07-03-2009, 03:09 PM
The color of most wheels is a matter of decoration and identification within a particular manufacturers line of products. It has nothing to do with the actual intended use of an aluminum oxide wheel.

OK, thanks.

I suspected that really.


.

Pherdie
07-03-2009, 05:05 PM
Bill Pace: My primary reason for the CBN at the time of purchase was getting around the mountains of that horrible grit that seems to be jet propelled off the AO wheels, - and not having to dress the wheel. Since I have been using it not only have I practically eliminated the dust/grit problem, but have been amazed with the use of it in the overall dressing of the tool, just much simpler, quicker,- youve always got that crisp sharp edge to work with.

After six months of construction and spending hundred of dollars in materials to build a tool and cutter grinding system, the last thing I want to do is immediately eat it up with grit. The purpose of the project was to be able to get repeatable, high accuracy results. Descriptions of CBN virtues, posted to this forum, appears to fit the bill with regard to both concerns.

lane
07-03-2009, 07:05 PM
CBN just beats the heck out of any thing else. Cost a lot. but after you use it you want go back. And not near the mess. Best thing since white bread .

clutch
07-03-2009, 07:36 PM
Question, can you use CBN dry? Just wondering, I have some used CBN wheels from work that were tossed when outside our specs for diameter. We normally use them to grind with coolant in a cnc grinder.

Clutch

Bill Pace
07-03-2009, 07:36 PM
After six months of construction and spending hundred of dollars in materials to build a tool and cutter grinding system, the last thing I want to do is immediately eat it up with grit.

Whoa! have you been hiding this T&CG project??:eek: Or did I miss it? You know this bunch is kinda fanatical about all grinders -with emphasis on the T&CG's.

Got pics??

thistle
07-03-2009, 08:58 PM
I use them dry.
CBN just gobbles up HSS

Evan
07-03-2009, 09:58 PM
I use them dry as well. You must be careful not to overheat the grit. A standard CBN wheel uses a high temperature plastic compound as the binder. It's good to about 500 degrees F. That is why CBN wheels have a relatively thin layer of grit on an aluminum core, it keeps the temperature down. If you use them dry you need to take lighter cuts and allow time to cool.

To dress a CBN wheel use a chunk of a broken aluminum oxide wheel or an AlO dressing brick. The dressing action melts the binder at the surface and removes the CBN grit. This will restore a CBN wheel that has been used to grind carbide and has become glazed.

lazlo
07-03-2009, 10:11 PM
2. Are the pink and pale blue grinding wheels also AlOx? And are they any special compared to the white ones?

The Norton Blue Wheels are the 5SG series: "Seeded Gel" -- ceramic alumina. The abrasive grains are much harder than conventional aluminum oxide.

Several folks here have posted about them, and they're very popular in the high-end woodworking community for sharpening planer blades, scrapers, lathe tools and such. I've been using them on my surface grinder -- they last at least 3 times as long on HSS as an AO wheel. They're about twice as expensive as an AO wheel too:

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Media/Documents/S0000000000000001035/SG%20Premium%20Performance%20Ctd%20Abr%207586.pdf

Evan
07-03-2009, 11:04 PM
There are also wheels made with cubic zirconia. I have some flap disks for my angle grinders that are advertised as dual purpose, grinding and polishing. They cut with an unusual sort of zingggg sound. They will remove mild steel so fast you really have to be careful until you get used to the action.

Pherdie
07-03-2009, 11:44 PM
Lazlo wrote:
The Norton Blue Wheels are the 5SG series: "Seeded Gel" -- ceramic alumina. The abrasive grains are much harder than conventional aluminum oxide.

I use this series, 40 grit, 2 X 72 belts on my shop built grinder with a 3 (real) hp motor. They are impressive! A quick corner radius on some 3/4" steel?? No problem. Remove a couple of inches of 1/4" steel??? Just takes a few seconds. A real 'metal muncher'......

The longevity of the belts is equally impressive. Just keep the fingers well away from that nasty belt. :eek:

Bill Pace wrote:
Whoa! have you been hiding this T&CG project?? Or did I miss it? You know this bunch is kinda fanatical about all grinders -with emphasis on the T&CG's. Got pics??

No pics yet as I have a few finishing touches to complete (like putting a CBN wheel on it!). I'll post something soon, Bill. Nothing amazing, just my longtime ambition.

Fred

oldtiffie
07-04-2009, 01:21 AM
The Norton Blue Wheels are the 5SG series: "Seeded Gel" -- ceramic alumina. The abrasive grains are much harder than conventional aluminum oxide.

Several folks here have posted about them, and they're very popular in the high-end woodworking community for sharpening planer blades, scrapers, lathe tools and such. I've been using them on my surface grinder -- they last at least 3 times as long on HSS as an AO wheel. They're about twice as expensive as an AO wheel too:

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Media/Documents/S0000000000000001035/SG%20Premium%20Performance%20Ctd%20Abr%207586.pdf

You are pretty right Lazlo.

Those "blue" wheels are sometimes called "hard" wheels - and they cut very well. They are - as you say - somewhere between aluminium-oxide and cubic boron. I still use AO as well as silicon-carbide (on occasion) but normally diamond for TC cutters.

Here is a selection of part of my wheel collection:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Abrasives3.jpg

If I need to "touch up" or hone TC or HSS I use these diamond laps:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Abrasives1.jpg

But being as old-fashioned as I am, I make and sharpen most of my lathe and fly-cutter tools/bits on the front/curved face of an emery wheel on my pedestal grinder - or the front curves face of my belt-sander:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Belt_sander/Belt_sander1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Belt_sander/Belt_sander2.jpg

As said, I grind most of my tools on the "curve" of the wheel (with only occasional use of the sides/flats).

I prefer a "hollow-ground" faces - similar to wood-workers tools (plane blades and chisels etc.) as I find it much better hone the face by resting the "ends of the curves" on my honing stones as it is faster and much easier and more accurate. I actually prefer to sharpen as a wood-worker does. I use a standard fine-coarse oil-stone (in a wooden enclosure) on the bench of in a vise as I can hone very efficiently with the tool instead of the hone in my hand.

If sharpening on my T&C or surface grinder, I rarely use the curved face to grind - as I would if I were surface grinding - as I "side wheel" preferably with a cup or saucer wheel, but occasionally with a "normal "disc" wheel. I set the face of the wheel off about 5 degrees from the axis of the grinder table so as to both have minimal wheel contact area with the tool as well as giving me my required "hollow grind".

If hand-grinding on an emery wheel, I have the cutting edge of the tool "up" with the wheel going "down" and if using the belt or disc sander I have the tool inverted so that the sander "exits" (instead of "enters") at the cutting edge.

I actually prefer the wheel on the sander as I can change belts in a minute from my wide selection of new/worn course/fine belt selection, plus the belt runs cooler on the tool.

If I am starting from scratch to make a tool, I will just put my portable "Triton" "Super Jaws" ( 1 ton of grip if needed) vice out in the gravel yard (day-light) or under the car-port (night or bad weather) and use a good 5" "Metabo" (German) industrial angle grinder (and gloves and a bucket of water!!!) to "rough out".
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Triton/Weld_earth6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Triton/Weld_earth13.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Triton/Weld_earth8.jpg

So my T&C grinder doesn't get as much use as some others might use it.

I can grind "flat" quite easily and use angles guages for angles - "fish" for screw-threading and a protractor or bevel guage for angles.

So really, tool and cutter grinding wheels get a lot less use here that else-where - but those grinders (T&C and surface) come in mighty handy when needed.

My TC tools are sharpened on the T&C or surface grinders - both of which use 1 1/4" (31.75mm) bore "Tool-Room" grinder wheels which I don't use on my pedestal grinder. I do however quite often "free-hand" (tool in hand and not in vise etc.) on those grinders for TC and HSS at times - ie I use them as pedestal grinders.

There were no "tool" surface or T&C grinders in shops where I was trained (they were in the Tool-Room) as manual tool-grinding (including screw-cutting and other "form" tools) at a pedestal grinder was a required skill - as was sharpening drills on a pedestal grinder.

I still use, maintain and treasure those skills.