Falcon67
07-08-2009, 05:23 PM
Especially long for a first post. A “this is my thinking because I don’t know any better yet, slap me into reality” type post. I'm a rank amateur in the machine hobby. But not too old to learn new tricks and not much afraid of anything. I own a 9x20 that I've been using to turn decent metal into scraps and making small things with. I don't have a machining background, but I have spent a lot of time in a past working life in QA/QC working directly with a capable machine shop. I wish I had taken more advantage of that opportunity when it was around - lots of good folks in that shop that would have shared knowledge gladly. I currently do networking, internet and wireless support at a 4 year university. I also own a HF micro mill that I've used for a couple of things, but mostly discovered that its way too small for anything I might really do around here. The plastic gears in it are a decent safety feature I think. I have used the mill to finish a mount for a 5” 4 jaw chuck that runs on the lathe, so I think the spark is there. I blew a transmission last year and was able to machine a new spacer plate for the high clutch pack that saved me bucks. I also make and sell fittings to let people use AN feed lines on Ford C4 automatics. I like to tinker and I like having stuff around that lets me solve problems, including the ones of my own making. Not production – just stuff. I build my own engines, transmissions, rears, etc for the race cars and like to be as independent as I can. I recently added an HF 4x6 bandsaw that beats the heck out of a hack saw. It cuts a little off the beam, but I’m still working on it. My wife remembers her dad had a machine (probably a ShopSmith) and he made a lot of candle sticks on it. So when I bought the lathe, she wanted to know if I was going to make some candle sticks. I scored 10’ of 1 ½” aluminum bar stock at the scrap yard, so I think I just might make her a set. :D I can tinker pretty good with wood – not cabinet work, but big stuff. I have a nice 20 x 24 shop that I built by hand with a hammer and a 9.2V B&D drill. I’m about to re-do our kitchen. Old houses require skills and I can match mess for mess with the best contractors, for sure.
I’d like to get better with metal. So I have this desire for a decent mill. Been doing a lot of research and reading, here and elsewhere. And spending too much time in the “reading room” with a Grizzly catalog. I really should be doing some real work. I’d also like to upsize to a 12 x 36 but the resident candle stick maker is working well for what I need. If I’d have known I’d have that much fun with it, I’d have gone for the bigger one. I scored the 9x20 for $500 on sale with a coupon so there’s no buyer’s remorse there.
First I got the hots for the HF 33686 and it’s sisters. Big table, not a wimpy machine, sure it has issues but I can work around or with those. Time is on my side. I could go get one quick if the local store stocked it, just waiting on the 20% coupon. The Griz looks nicer, and they have one with a handy X table feed that makes for a nice machine.
But for just a few hundred dollars more…
The G0484 square column caught my eye. That’s a big ‘un. Good looking machine, good price. Looks like one of the “RF45” mills. Not hardly enough space left in the shop for my own feet but I could park it next to a window so the table could slide outside on long X cuts. Square column, less Z axis issues, 18” under the spindle. Speeds seem a hair quick for tapping and too slow for aluminum but it’s a nice piece.
But if I stretched the budget (like there is one) to the very limit…
That G3616 is sweet. A real knee mill, higher speeds, footprint not too huge. Decent table, carries a lot of weigh. A little short on X travel and 15” under the spindle might make for creative setups at one time or another. .
So – what’s a boy to do. Either unit will do all the small stuff I can see doing around here, including flycutting pistons, bracket work, whatever. At the very top end of desires would be to do some work on cylinder heads. Surfacing, guide work, milling/tapping for studs and guideplates mainly. Maybe seat work, but I have access to a pro head guy and sometimes you are just money, time and performance ahead to buy expertise. Anybody can buy stones and mandrels. Doing at least some head work here would save $400~600 per pair easy. The typical head I use is cast iron, runs about 20 x 5.5 x 4 and weighs around 55 lbs. There is also the potential need to mill intake faces, but I’m not sure I can afford a mill with enough free space to do that. It is an operation that has not yet been needed around here. There are always brackets, spacers, gauge mounts, and general stuff. Something always comes up. Being able to make “it” is pretty dog-gone satisfying. But at my age I’ve also learned that half a loaf is better than none and maybe you just can’t afford to go everywhere you’d like. We don't like to go into hock very deep and we do use a credit card but pay it off every month. To get something decent, there will be some financing but it'll need to be kept short. And there's that space problem - already maintaining two race cars with a 20x24 shop that's has a big compressor, storage, lathe, big tool box, engine crane, several benches, drill press, chop saw, bandsaw, 10 ton press, MIG welder, etc, etc. Space is a premium. I have a nice oxy torch kit I bought on sale, but no room to park a big pair of tanks right now. If I manage a mill in the next year or so, something is going end up in the dog pen LOL.
When I think about the mills:
G0484
Plus - has the table size and travel, lower cost for a decent set of features, 18" under the spindle, lower initial cost leaves room sooner for things like VFD, DRO and other groovy acronyms.
Minus - is the table really thick enough to handle the load. Will it be able to hold .002 across 20” to surface a head – if it has the flexibility to do that at all. Speed set seems just a hair too fast for tapping and way slow for aluminum milling. I can always hand tap with the mill guiding.
Fixes? - three phase + VFD, assuming the internal gearing could handle higher speeds. Fix for a table issue seems like it would be "buy a bigger machine"
G3616
Plus - real knee mill, more mass, still affordable but at the limit, thick table (2 ½”) rated to 220lbs, wider speed selection, everything swivels, slides and turns so you can get it all out of tram in a hurry. Big swing, flexible.
Minus - 15" under spindle or less could be a problem with a head already 4” thick. Better speeds for aluminum but maybe not slow enough for machine tapping, short X travel (15")
Fixes – found pics of one apart on the web, could easily make riser for head if really needed to clear tooling. Speeds - again with the VFD + 3 phase or build an add on pulley system as seen in an older post here. Table - buy the G3617 table and X screw or try running in two directions, extending and swinging the head unit to cover a bit more ground – no cost if accuracy can be maintained.
And with either machine, if I can’t do all I’d like I can still do much, much more than I can now. Neither has a quill feed but I’m sure I can live with that. I’d rather have/make a DRO. Updates to the G0484 still don't run the price up too much. Updates to the G3616 cost more and would have to be put off, probably for the length of any note at least. I'm out of rich relatives - wait, there never were any. I'm not that interested in rebuilding an old machine tool – time is a premium along with space and there are none around here except big old oil field stuff thats been left outside since the bust in the 80s. And decent rebuildable units in the Dallas area are going to run $4500 and up anyway – outside the budget. I race with a guy that has been in the machine shop business for a long time and I will touch base with him. They just haven't been out at the track lately. I know the wish list screams “G9901” but that’s too far out unless that lotto ticket scores. I’d have to knock out a wall. Yes, I have looked at the IH mill but with table feed and shipping I’d spend over G3616 money. Griz shipping is cheaper than the trailer run to Springfield by $120 or so.
So any input would be appreciated. My “gut” says G3616. But is the low top speed on the G0484 (1512 RPM) a serious limit for working with aluminum? Can a hobby guy work around that? I would not like to drop $400 on a VFD setup on a G0484 only to have the thing eat its own gears at a higher speed. Does the desire to do larger work take it out of consideration altogether? Is the G3616 a decent machine or is it too compromised in small ways that might become big issues later on. I think only an experienced operator can help me think through potential issues – I just don’t know enough right now. Thanks for your time, consideration and expertise. Hopefully I can contribute something to the forum in return.
I’d like to get better with metal. So I have this desire for a decent mill. Been doing a lot of research and reading, here and elsewhere. And spending too much time in the “reading room” with a Grizzly catalog. I really should be doing some real work. I’d also like to upsize to a 12 x 36 but the resident candle stick maker is working well for what I need. If I’d have known I’d have that much fun with it, I’d have gone for the bigger one. I scored the 9x20 for $500 on sale with a coupon so there’s no buyer’s remorse there.
First I got the hots for the HF 33686 and it’s sisters. Big table, not a wimpy machine, sure it has issues but I can work around or with those. Time is on my side. I could go get one quick if the local store stocked it, just waiting on the 20% coupon. The Griz looks nicer, and they have one with a handy X table feed that makes for a nice machine.
But for just a few hundred dollars more…
The G0484 square column caught my eye. That’s a big ‘un. Good looking machine, good price. Looks like one of the “RF45” mills. Not hardly enough space left in the shop for my own feet but I could park it next to a window so the table could slide outside on long X cuts. Square column, less Z axis issues, 18” under the spindle. Speeds seem a hair quick for tapping and too slow for aluminum but it’s a nice piece.
But if I stretched the budget (like there is one) to the very limit…
That G3616 is sweet. A real knee mill, higher speeds, footprint not too huge. Decent table, carries a lot of weigh. A little short on X travel and 15” under the spindle might make for creative setups at one time or another. .
So – what’s a boy to do. Either unit will do all the small stuff I can see doing around here, including flycutting pistons, bracket work, whatever. At the very top end of desires would be to do some work on cylinder heads. Surfacing, guide work, milling/tapping for studs and guideplates mainly. Maybe seat work, but I have access to a pro head guy and sometimes you are just money, time and performance ahead to buy expertise. Anybody can buy stones and mandrels. Doing at least some head work here would save $400~600 per pair easy. The typical head I use is cast iron, runs about 20 x 5.5 x 4 and weighs around 55 lbs. There is also the potential need to mill intake faces, but I’m not sure I can afford a mill with enough free space to do that. It is an operation that has not yet been needed around here. There are always brackets, spacers, gauge mounts, and general stuff. Something always comes up. Being able to make “it” is pretty dog-gone satisfying. But at my age I’ve also learned that half a loaf is better than none and maybe you just can’t afford to go everywhere you’d like. We don't like to go into hock very deep and we do use a credit card but pay it off every month. To get something decent, there will be some financing but it'll need to be kept short. And there's that space problem - already maintaining two race cars with a 20x24 shop that's has a big compressor, storage, lathe, big tool box, engine crane, several benches, drill press, chop saw, bandsaw, 10 ton press, MIG welder, etc, etc. Space is a premium. I have a nice oxy torch kit I bought on sale, but no room to park a big pair of tanks right now. If I manage a mill in the next year or so, something is going end up in the dog pen LOL.
When I think about the mills:
G0484
Plus - has the table size and travel, lower cost for a decent set of features, 18" under the spindle, lower initial cost leaves room sooner for things like VFD, DRO and other groovy acronyms.
Minus - is the table really thick enough to handle the load. Will it be able to hold .002 across 20” to surface a head – if it has the flexibility to do that at all. Speed set seems just a hair too fast for tapping and way slow for aluminum milling. I can always hand tap with the mill guiding.
Fixes? - three phase + VFD, assuming the internal gearing could handle higher speeds. Fix for a table issue seems like it would be "buy a bigger machine"
G3616
Plus - real knee mill, more mass, still affordable but at the limit, thick table (2 ½”) rated to 220lbs, wider speed selection, everything swivels, slides and turns so you can get it all out of tram in a hurry. Big swing, flexible.
Minus - 15" under spindle or less could be a problem with a head already 4” thick. Better speeds for aluminum but maybe not slow enough for machine tapping, short X travel (15")
Fixes – found pics of one apart on the web, could easily make riser for head if really needed to clear tooling. Speeds - again with the VFD + 3 phase or build an add on pulley system as seen in an older post here. Table - buy the G3617 table and X screw or try running in two directions, extending and swinging the head unit to cover a bit more ground – no cost if accuracy can be maintained.
And with either machine, if I can’t do all I’d like I can still do much, much more than I can now. Neither has a quill feed but I’m sure I can live with that. I’d rather have/make a DRO. Updates to the G0484 still don't run the price up too much. Updates to the G3616 cost more and would have to be put off, probably for the length of any note at least. I'm out of rich relatives - wait, there never were any. I'm not that interested in rebuilding an old machine tool – time is a premium along with space and there are none around here except big old oil field stuff thats been left outside since the bust in the 80s. And decent rebuildable units in the Dallas area are going to run $4500 and up anyway – outside the budget. I race with a guy that has been in the machine shop business for a long time and I will touch base with him. They just haven't been out at the track lately. I know the wish list screams “G9901” but that’s too far out unless that lotto ticket scores. I’d have to knock out a wall. Yes, I have looked at the IH mill but with table feed and shipping I’d spend over G3616 money. Griz shipping is cheaper than the trailer run to Springfield by $120 or so.
So any input would be appreciated. My “gut” says G3616. But is the low top speed on the G0484 (1512 RPM) a serious limit for working with aluminum? Can a hobby guy work around that? I would not like to drop $400 on a VFD setup on a G0484 only to have the thing eat its own gears at a higher speed. Does the desire to do larger work take it out of consideration altogether? Is the G3616 a decent machine or is it too compromised in small ways that might become big issues later on. I think only an experienced operator can help me think through potential issues – I just don’t know enough right now. Thanks for your time, consideration and expertise. Hopefully I can contribute something to the forum in return.