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S_J_H
07-12-2009, 01:45 AM
I will be machining a sliding vane supercharger for my new (to me) 78 kz650.
I'm not new to supercharging engines FYI.
I'm doing this because I can, and want to have something very different.

internals of a sliding vane blower- http://vwjudsonregister.tripod.com/IMAGES/rotor-and-vanes.jpg

What I am not sure of is how to determine the size of the sliding vane blower/compressor?

I was looking at old pics of the Judson and Shorrocks for ideas. I know vane types have been used on some dragbikes for years- http://www.thefang.co.uk/superchargers.htm .

Maybe looking for around 15lbs/min flow or a possible 150hp max capacity from the blower( not looking to push the engine that far though).
The blower does not have to last forever and I need to keep material cost down.
I'm thinking of just using 6061 for the body (100$) as a big hunk of 7075 will be around 500$:eek:
The rotor - also 6061 as well to keep it light. Decent bearings and a cog belt drive. I'll build it with adjustable port outlets for tuning. Not sure of what to use for the vane material? phenolic maybe delrin? Has to be strong but not wear the aluminum cylinder to fast. The vanes will be lubed.

Anybody have any ideas, thoughts ?

Steve

dp
07-12-2009, 03:50 AM
I always thought this guy was on to something:
http://www.frank.germano.com/theturbine.htm

I think one problem of the Tesla concept in practice is the final product is a better gyro than air pump, but I still like the idea of it.

Forrest Addy
07-12-2009, 04:39 AM
Sure, more powerful engines make bigger marks on what ever is struck by the bike. I also saves on coffins. If your bike is powerful enough what they can find of your remains will fit in a match box.

Here's a stat. A motorcycle rider's chances of road related hospitalization is 100% in about 7 years. Not everyone will need a hospital. Some people wll need it a couple of times.

Supercharge your bike but I sure hope you beat the odds. A few of my buddies didn't over the years. Maybe that's why I'm so negative.

Peter.
07-12-2009, 05:21 AM
As I'm sure you know Steve the KZ650 was the base for the GPZ750turbo, so you should be able to fit the complete DFI sub-loom off the turbo bike for fuelling with a bit of fiddling.

As for sizing, for turbocharger flow I work on a 140% target power for sizing. I don't know if this would be good for a supercharger because it's direct drive means you'll be increasing parasitic losses by always pumping too much air, and increasing inlet temps un-necessarily too. On the other hand if you shoot for target BHP you might fall short.

Are you particularily keen on making a sliding-vane charger? Have you thought about a centrifugal charger, made from half of a conventional turbocharger, in the fashion of the Rotrex or Procharger devices?

Charles Ping
07-12-2009, 05:22 AM
I will be machining a sliding vane supercharger for my new (to me) 78 kz650.
I'm not new to supercharging engines FYI.
I'm doing this because I can, and want to have something very different.

internals of a sliding vane blower- http://vwjudsonregister.tripod.com/IMAGES/rotor-and-vanes.jpg

What I am not sure of is how to determine the size of the sliding vane blower/compressor?

I was looking at old pics of the Judson and Shorrocks for ideas. I know vane types have been used on some dragbikes for years- http://www.thefang.co.uk/superchargers.htm .

Maybe looking for around 15lbs/min flow or a possible 150hp max capacity from the blower( not looking to push the engine that far though).
The blower does not have to last forever and I need to keep material cost down.
I'm thinking of just using 6061 for the body (100$) as a big hunk of 7075 will be around 500$:eek:
The rotor - also 6061 as well to keep it light. Decent bearings and a cog belt drive. I'll build it with adjustable port outlets for tuning. Not sure of what to use for the vane material? phenolic maybe delrin? Has to be strong but not wear the aluminum cylinder to fast. The vanes will be lubed.

Anybody have any ideas, thoughts ?

Steve

Judson's tend to use a version of Tufnol called Carp. Delrin has been tried but I recalll swells.

A poke around the VW tuning world should give you help

Charles

Doc Nickel
07-12-2009, 06:07 AM
Have you thought about a centrifugal charger, made from half of a conventional turbocharger, in the fashion of the Rotrex or Procharger devices?

-Centripetals small enough for a motorcycle engine tend to be very "peaky", producing little boost until it comes on all at once.

PD (positive displacement) superchargers have the same difficulty, but to a lesser extent.

In response to the OP, in the late eighties or early nineties, a tech writer for one of the early ATV magazines (probably 3&4 Wheel Action or Dirt Wheels) built or otherwise aquired a vane type supercharger very much like the one pictured. The article implied he built it, but didn't show any of the actual build.

Anyway, as I recall, he used micarta/phenolic sheets for vanes. Supposedly they wear well, and if they disintegrate, they do little damage to the motor on their way through.

I can't say about sizing, but I'll note that of the swept volume per rotation proves to be too small, you can "fine tune" by varying the pulley size. Racers do this with the big Roots blowers, which is why you can run a 6-71 on both a small displacement small block and a large displacement big block.

Doc.

Doc Nickel
07-12-2009, 06:42 AM
Found it. Dirt Wheels magazine, June 1989. A writer apparently only known as "Mr. Dialed-In" and said to live in Oregon, made a fairly simple vane-type supercharger that produced up to about 10 pounds of boost.

The article is written... let's just say colloquially, and gives little by way of technical detail. He does note, though, that the drive pulley is an off-the-shelf hardware store item, making it simple to swap sizes for more or less boost.

He also notes that the first version has little plenum- it makes plenty of boost, but the boosted engine makes little power. He eventually adds considerable additional plenum volume, which helps considerably.

I could scan the article, if you want, but as I said, there's very little technical detail, and no maths at all.

Doc.

Peter.
07-12-2009, 06:51 AM
-Centripetals small enough for a motorcycle engine tend to be very "peaky", producing little boost until it comes on all at once.

Doc.

I wouldn't say that's true nowadays Doc. Here is a dyno sheet of Sean Mills' latest Procharger-equipped kit compared to an earlier Rotrex-fitted one. As you can see the power curve is near as damnitt a straight line, in fact it's straighter than a stock bike's power delivery:

http://www.bigccracing.com/userfiles/image/Procharger%20v%20Rotrex.bmp

boslab
07-12-2009, 06:55 AM
it seems like a good idea, most of mine do at first, there is a club for bikes with superchargers turbo-superchargers and additional NO2/ solid fuel rockets and LOX;
http://www.darwinawards.com/
please be carefull, there is a Ti shortage and there may not be enough left over after fixing you up!
regards
mark [ naturally aspirated ,unleaded and alive ]

gnm109
07-12-2009, 07:05 AM
Sure, more powerful engines make bigger marks on what ever is struck by the bike. I also saves on coffins. If your bike is powerful enough what they can find of your remains will fit in a match box.

Here's a stat. A motorcycle rider's chances of road related hospitalization is 100% in about 7 years. Not everyone will need a hospital. Some people wll need it a couple of times.

Supercharge your bike but I sure hope you beat the odds. A few of my buddies didn't over the years. Maybe that's why I'm so negative.


Negative on bikes are ye? I agree, they're dangerous. Been riding them for many years and still have one. I just like them. I also agree that they're not for everyone. That's why I never talk about riding much since most people are frightened of them and it makes them uncomfortable.
As far as killing people though, airplanes do a much better job. If your pilot has a bad day or If some fool forgets to lube the stabilizer trim screw or leaves an O-ring on the bench when rebuilding a hydraulic actuator valve, you could wipe out maybe 300 people all at one shot. Now that's efficiency.

I think it's odd how people cringe when thinking about the danger of a motorcycle on the ground at road speed but will think nothing of flying at 30,000 feet at 500 mph in an airplane. I can't understand that. I'd call it a mental disconnect.

Back on topic, superchargers sound like fun to me. It's a good exercise in machine work in any case.

Peter.
07-12-2009, 07:12 AM
How about leaning over a 15hp lathe with exposed spinning parts, easy-to-engage levers and red-hot-razor-sharp metal swarf chips flying all around you.

Sounds perfectly safe to me - I think I'll take my chance with my bike :)

jkilroy
07-12-2009, 09:57 AM
Oh come on, saying air travel is more dangerous than a bike is crazy. Something like 70 fatalities per 100,000 bikes on the road per year thats BAD!

A.K. Boomer
07-12-2009, 10:37 AM
I will be machining a sliding vane supercharger for my new (to me) 78 kz650.
I'm not new to supercharging engines FYI.
I'm doing this because I can, and want to have something very different.

internals of a sliding vane blower- http://vwjudsonregister.tripod.com/IMAGES/rotor-and-vanes.jpg

What I am not sure of is how to determine the size of the sliding vane blower/compressor?

I was looking at old pics of the Judson and Shorrocks for ideas. I know vane types have been used on some dragbikes for years- http://www.thefang.co.uk/superchargers.htm .

Maybe looking for around 15lbs/min flow or a possible 150hp max capacity from the blower( not looking to push the engine that far though).
The blower does not have to last forever and I need to keep material cost down.
I'm thinking of just using 6061 for the body (100$) as a big hunk of 7075 will be around 500$:eek:
The rotor - also 6061 as well to keep it light. Decent bearings and a cog belt drive. I'll build it with adjustable port outlets for tuning. Not sure of what to use for the vane material? phenolic maybe delrin? Has to be strong but not wear the aluminum cylinder to fast. The vanes will be lubed.

Anybody have any ideas, thoughts ?

Steve


I would not run your slide vanes on aluminum, Look for some kind of Cast iron sleeve that you can press in and thats a good start, as far as the vanes themselves I would mimmick what they use in air tools or other vane type compressors - lots of them use that kinda fiber board or whatever it is --- I think plain delrin would have a meltdown or break but they do make delrin AF which is a teflon delrin -- maybe higher temp and definitely reduced friction to the point of not having to lubricate, they also make a ceramic type delrin -- your guess is as good as mine there.
What a crazy project, let us know what you come up with, should be no problem to bench test it --------------- I have an idea for you if your uncertain about the sizing, just go for massive overkill and build it with a built in eccentric in the center mount ------ the more radical the eccentric moves away from center and over to the designated side the more flow and pressure,
Hey, I think I just came up with an idea of a free running unit that causes minimal drag where boast is not needed so efficiency can be kept yet when power is needed it can be rotated into position for instant (no turbo lag) power, Fuqe yeah - put some bearings on the eccentric and a vacuum/pressure control unit.:D

Richard-TX
07-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Here's a stat. A motorcycle rider's chances of road related hospitalization is 100% in about 7 years. Not everyone will need a hospital. Some people wll need it a couple of times.



That is a bogus stat.

lazlo
07-12-2009, 12:05 PM
Steve, this is a really great idea for a project! Keep us posted! :)

saltmine
07-12-2009, 12:34 PM
I donno guys....It looks like a "smog pump " to me....
Back in the '60's my brother and I cobbled one up to fit a 305 Honda Scrambler. Don't know how much it boosted the power, or any dyno results, but it ran pretty hard. The biggest problem was getting a stub shaft through the side cover so we could drive the pump and keep the oil inside the case.
We used "off the shelf" hardware store V-belt pulleys. The ducting was radiator hose and we ended up using a single carburator off of a 450 Honda.
I think a lot of the boost was being consumed driving the pump, though.
Ya gotta remember, we were a couple of dumb kids.
The smog pump was liberated off of a wrecked '66 Oldsmobile.
The housing was cast aluminum, with an iron liner, carbon impregnated fiberglass vanes, and a steel rotor...it actually looked a lot like the photo S_J_H posted, without the manifold. Far as I know, you can still walk into just about any auto parts store and still buy 'em.

S_J_H
07-12-2009, 02:06 PM
I don't want to turn this into a bikes are dangerous thread. I was riding motocross at 13 and had my first street bike accident at 18. Still have 3 pins in my ankle from that crash and I'm now 48. I have been to a funeral for a friend from bike accident.
I know the risks.

A supercharged kz650 might only put out power compared to a mild sport 600 of today. The lowend torque should be quite a bit stronger though. I'm not building some monster. It'll still be very mild to what you can just go and buy at any bike shop.

Some good idea's here! Thanks!

I have a vortech (centrifugal) on a ls1 TA sitting in my garage. I run the blower at max redline speeds. I built a separate throttle for the blower inlet. The gas pedal operates both blower and engine throttle body simultaneously.
This keeps inlet temps down at cruise and eliminates the need for a bypass valve. Running about 12psi and 70lbs/min. Using a water/methanol system I built. I machined a boost controlled needle valve, so flow is proportional to boost. Fun little engine.

I would rather go with a positive displacement blower for the excellent throttle response down low.
Of all the blower designs the sliding vane seems to be the easiest to make.
This is a project bike, I have it down to bare frame right now. If you have to ask why?.......well you know the rest.

How cool is this- a supercharged Indian-
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/misc/DSC_0038.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/misc/DSC_0064.jpg
Here is his build thread-
http://www.landracing.com/forum/index.php/topic,5849.0.html

Steve

S_J_H
08-20-2009, 10:59 PM
well after much thought I decided to forget my idea's of machining a supercharger and instead I will go the turbo route.
There will be plenty of metal machining and fabrication for this project to keep me busy over the winter.

I bought this turbo off of e-bay. It's a GT15 of unknown make. It's probably Chinese made. I am quite impressed by the castings and machining. It's a floating plain bearing type. Oil fed/cooled. Very clean and well oiled.
Nice little turbo.
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/turboandpaintupdate017.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/turboandpaintupdate015.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/turboandpaintupdate016.jpg
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/turboandpaintupdate018.jpg

Black_Moons
08-20-2009, 11:06 PM
You only live once, and then you die. Enjoy life to the best of your abilitys, just allways calculate risk vs enjoyment. If you enjoy it that much, maybe its worth only living 7 more years, What where you gonna do with the rest of your time anyway? sit around molding in some old fokes home unable to remeber what you did 5 mins ago?

On a more posative and less ethical note, that blower design is awsome, its a lot like my lame little flexable vane water pump (bought, not built) except likey doesnt burn out when run dry lol.

TGTool
08-20-2009, 11:20 PM
I suppose all turbos have a certain family resemblance, but it also looks like the pair of IHI (Japanese) turbos I've worked with. Also oil fed plain bearings.

That was an interesting concept to me of using essentially a free-turning sleeve to divide the surface speed between shaft and housing.

darryl
08-20-2009, 11:43 PM
I'm reminded of the little turbo honda put on one of their bikes called the Sorcerer, if my memory serves correctly. It was scarcely an inch in diameter and ran at 100, 000 rpm or more. I'd have to check the facts on this- it was a long time ago.

I always thought it would be a good idea to put a gate on the inlet side of any sort of air pump like this. That way you could have the thing fully sped up and only kick in boost as needed by operating the valve. Is this done at all these days?

As far as material for vanes, all I've seen is the phenolic type stuff With the advent of slipperier than teflon materials, maybe there could be a product using rulon or fluon that would make up for the inadequecies of ordinary materials.

Every time I spray top kote on my saw table I think of what other applications it would have in the shop. Wherever parts have to slide against each other, a slippery film could be used. Just postulating here- what if you used aluminum for the vanes, anodized them, then sprayed on a slippery coating- I'm thinking the anodizing would leave the open pores like it does, which is what lets the various dyes 'soak in', so maybe that would give bite for a coating as well. Just some thoughts- I know Steve you've settled on a different type blower for your project, but I'm thinking that by now, in this modern age, we should have some pretty good coatings to assist with things like sliding vanes.

dp
08-21-2009, 12:59 AM
I think it's odd how people cringe when thinking about the danger of a motorcycle on the ground at road speed but will think nothing of flying at 30,000 feet at 500 mph in an airplane. I can't understand that. I'd call it a mental disconnect.

As Laverne De Fazio once said, nobody ever fell 30,000 feet out of a Buick.

darryl
08-21-2009, 01:40 AM
Saw a young couple sitting in a cafe today. She looked really pretty and clean, he looked like he was in love with her. Nice. I had to check her out a couple times 'cause she was a bit of a stunner. Whatever :)

Anyway, there we are outside finishing up our drinks, sitting by our motorcycles, and they come out. At this point we see that they have the suzuki katana that's sitting nearby. So they get on it, exit the parking lot, then he guns it and they roar off in the burst of acceleration which that bike is capable of. Within about 200 ft they're doing 247 mph, and she has barely managed to not slide off the back of the seat. Both are clad in short sleeve shirts and shorts, her wearing sandals.

Sad to think that we, after 30 years of motorcycling, are going to outlive her (and the jerk). There's a pair for the statistics.

Sorry Steve, I really didn't mean to add to the dumping on motorcycling in your thread. Sure there's a danger in the sport, but surely also the risk is mitigated by the use of common sense. Good luck with your project.

Evan
08-21-2009, 01:49 AM
Something like 70 fatalities per 100,000 bikes on the road per year thats BAD!


Using the same methodology the rate for commercial jet aircraft for 2008 is 2788 fatalities per 100,000 commercial jet aircraft. Statistics are so much fun.:rolleyes:

Peter.
08-21-2009, 02:05 AM
I'm reminded of the little turbo honda put on one of their bikes called the Sorcerer, if my memory serves correctly. It was scarcely an inch in diameter and ran at 100, 000 rpm or more. I'd have to check the facts on this- it was a long time ago.

That was the CX500turbo. There used to be one on display in the Science Museum in London.



I always thought it would be a good idea to put a gate on the inlet side of any sort of air pump like this. That way you could have the thing fully sped up and only kick in boost as needed by operating the valve. Is this done at all these days?


Common on superchargers with their positive-connection drive, but taking the load off a turbocharger which is still being driven by exhaust-gas heat energy will over-speed the rotating assembly and destroy the compressor wheel.

tdmidget
08-21-2009, 02:06 AM
Well Evan This is a totally bogus statistic. Fatalities per vehicle means nothing. The average bike travels probably 10 miles /day, max. The average airliner travels at least 10 times that.

EVguru
08-21-2009, 09:13 AM
You might want to look at the work that Franco Lambertini did at Moto Morini back in the early 80's. They built a prototype turbocharged version of their 500 V-twin and ran some 110,000km in testing.

http://www.motomoriniclub.nl/turbo.html

You can find the patent (in Italian) online if you look hard enough.

S_J_H
08-21-2009, 10:00 AM
I always thought it would be a good idea to put a gate on the inlet side of any sort of air pump like this.
On my supercharged Chevy ls1 motor I did exactly that. This is a Mass air sensor controlled efi engine. The MAF sensors proper operation is extremely critical to smooth running with this type of EFI.
The standard method of dealing with supercharger surge is to use a bypass valve that dumps the pressure/flow back into the superchargers inlet at high vacuum/closed throttle conditions. This keeps the already measured air in the loop and the engine happy. But it also heats the air charge bigtime.
I fabricated a second throttle body that works in conjunction with the engines main throttle body located at the supercharger inlet and both operated by the gas pedal. I also relocated the MAF sensor to the supercharger output side to make this work. This second throttle body eliminated the need for a bypass valve completely and has worked flawless for the last 8 years.
But anyhow, Turbos are totally different animals than belted superchargers.
All the JAP bike makers made a turbo bike at one time back in the 80's. The Kawi GPZ750 might have been the best. Honda made a cx650 after the cx500. The CX650 roll-on times were faster than any size bike of that period.

darryl,
hey I might still try and make a mini sized sliding vane pump just for a project and see how well it works. A small one would not be terribly hard to machine just to test out a few things.
EVguru, excellent link! Very good reading!


Here is the flow map for this turbo. Note that generally 1lb/min of airflow is needed for every 10hp. I'm looking for around 120-140hp. Stock the bike with better exhaust is around 70hp. 14.7 psi boost or better termed a pressure ratio of 2, in theory will double the power. Not in reality because of loss's.
So looking at the map for this turbo, it is sized very good for this engines desired output as it will be operating smack dab in it's most efficient range at peak power . Turbo rpm of around 150,000 :eek: :D .
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/1978%20kz650/gt15flowmap.jpg
I also have some nice engine modeling software to help presort things out-
http://performancetrends.com/Engine_Analyzer_Pro_v3.3.htm

Steve

TGTool
08-21-2009, 11:55 AM
I always thought it would be a good idea to put a gate on the inlet side of any sort of air pump like this. That way you could have the thing fully sped up and only kick in boost as needed by operating the valve. Is this done at all these days?


Yes, you can put a valve there operated by a spike in manifold vacuum when the throttle is suddenly closed during shifts. This blow-off valve dumps pressure to keep the turbos up to speed (unhampered by back pressure) so when the throttle is opened again you don't have to get them back up to speed for boost.

Thruthefence
08-21-2009, 12:18 PM
Aircraft use a similiar pump for an instrument air source, driving the navigation gyros.

The "dry type" use vanes of a carbon impregnated material, and they will wear down & fail. If you get 600 hr out of them, you are ahead of the curve. And in this application, you are only looking at 2.5- 3.0 psig. A few years ago, someone came out with a "dry" aluminum vane pump for aircraft, guaranteed for life, as I recall, but I don't think it was successful.

When I was in high school, a kid had an AH Sprite, with a Judson on it, as I recall, it had a total loss oiler, serviced with marvel mystery oil. Regarding the Smog pump supercharger, I vaguely remember a magazine write up on a similiar setup. I think its a neat project you're doing, keep us posted.

BobWarfield
08-21-2009, 05:13 PM
Yes, you can put a valve there operated by a spike in manifold vacuum when the throttle is suddenly closed during shifts. This blow-off valve dumps pressure to keep the turbos up to speed (unhampered by back pressure) so when the throttle is opened again you don't have to get them back up to speed for boost.

Those dump valves are real common. My Audi TT has one as does my Porsche. Might be one easily adapted from the junk yard.

With all that said, turbos never have the throttle response of the supercharger unless you tune heck out of them which is hard to do with homebuilt one-offs. I've had a bunch of turbo cars whose throttle response has ranged from amazing to you-can-fall-asleep-waiting-and-be-awakened-by-the-hand-of-God-pushing-your-backside-when-it-hits. The latter alternates between frustrating (the waiting), fun (the hit), and scary as heck (the lack of fine throttle control in a turn).

I'd consider pulling that turbo you got off eBay apart and converting it to be a centrifigul. The impellor on the air side doesn't care how it's driven and will work great. No need for dump valves, wastegates, or the complex plumbing.

I know you'd machine a gorgeous housing to replace the hot side and it would turn out real darned slick.

Cheers,

BW

S_J_H
08-21-2009, 05:56 PM
Bob, did you see the impeller speeds needed for this turbo to move the air?
It would take a heck of a drive system to spin it that fast:eek: :eek: . Basically that's why belt driven centrifugal impellers tend to be larger than turbos. So they don't need astronomical rpm's to move the large amount of air.

Nah, I want to try the turbo first. I have been involved with forced induction on cars for 25+ years. Belt driven centrifugals are fun but a turbo is mighty hard to beat.
Steve

topct
08-21-2009, 05:59 PM
A modern fuel injection system from a 600 or 750 sized engine would be my choice.

All by itself.