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Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 04:29 PM
See this I was fascinated at the way health care is being denied to millions of Americans for greedy shareholders.Now you were warned it was off topic twice so read on please without complaint that its off topic:D
:DAlistair


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

Evan
07-12-2009, 04:48 PM
Stirring the pot again are you?

dp
07-12-2009, 04:56 PM
See this I was fascinated at the way health care is being denied to millions of Americans for greedy shareholders.Now you were warned it was off topic twice so read on please without complaint that its off topic:D
:DAlistair


http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/watch2.html

It may not be known overseas that Bill Moyers has been a democrat party operative for years and so does not see solutions from a centrist perspective. While shooting the messenger is never acceptable, it is frequently difficult to see where Moyers is the message carrier or the message writer, or both. This is in part caused by his having a consistent message over the years and access to the message delivery mechanism known as public television.

By introduction:



After receiving his journalism degree in 1956, he spent a year at the University of Edinburgh in Scotland on a Rotary International fellowship. In 1957 he entered the Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary, earning a divinity degree and becoming an ordained minister in 1959. He briefly accepted a lectureship in Christian ethics at Baylor University. "I thought it was a call to the ministry," Moyers later told one interviewer, "but actually it was a wrong number."

Senator Lyndon Johnson invited Moyers to work on his 1960 presidential campaign. When Johnson eventually was named to be John F. Kennedy's vice presidential running mate, Moyers became LBJ's executive assistant.

After Kennedy was elected President, Moyers in 1961 became associate director of public affairs, and then deputy director, of JFK's new Peace Corps. After Kennedy's assassination in November 1963, Moyers rushed to Lyndon Johnson's side and became the new President's special assistant.

In LBJ's White House, Moyers supervised the task forces that shaped the legislation of the vast welfare expansion known as the Great Society. Moyers also orchestrated the 1964 political campaign of calculated defamation against Republican Senator Barry Goldwater of Arizona. Moyers personally green-lighted the notorious "daisy ad" that featured a little girl plucking daisy petals as a countdown leads to her vaporization in a nuclear blast, presumably what would happen if Goldwater were elected.

In 1965 Moyers was promoted to the position of President Johnson's Press Secretary. In 1967, however, Moyers and Johnson had a personal falling out and they never spoke to one another again.

Thereafter Moyers was named publisher of the suburban New York newspaper Newsday. Moving the publication farther to the political left, he turned it into a literary salon that invited writers such as Saul Bellow to be its correspondents. Moyers left in 1970 when Newsday was acquired by the then-conservative Los Angeles Times.

You have to judge the importance and affect of his history in his contemporary work using your own life experience. I'm just the messenger :)

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 04:57 PM
Well whatever you think Evan your never wrong but it's an interesting debate sorry you didn't know that go back to google they'll be missing you your away from it by about two minutes aren't you and at least I#m not trying to take advantage of anyone elses divorce misery by trying to get his lifetimes collections of tools on the cheap:D:DAlistair

Jim Shaper
07-12-2009, 05:12 PM
Health care could be affordable if we'd just get the trial lawyers out of it.

I know a ob/gyn who pays significantly more for his insurance than he makes in his practice. Being one of the delivery specialists for a hospital (he delivers something like 2000 kids a year) is probably why he makes so little money - god help you if a kid doesn't squirt out properly. It's a wonder anyone agrees to do it anymore... "Go deliver your own baby so you can't sue me for doing it wrong."

Ever notice how many politicians are lawyers? Get them out of washington, and we working folk might stand a chance.

bama's belief that the successful people somehow have an obligation to the non-working poor is obscene.

dp
07-12-2009, 05:14 PM
The patient needs to return to the role of customer. When that was lost, all was lost.

I also think George should pull the switch on this one as it's been beat to death before.

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 05:19 PM
I did say it was off topic twice anyway George if this is not as interesting as some of the other stuff of topic printed here then by all means pull it I won't be offended it does seem strange how some people get annoyed by such a democratically debated subject either agree with whet the guys says or not don't bury your head in the sand and pretend that this is not a subject fit for debate.It seems to me millions of people being thrown off the register for health insurance because the insurance companies investors aren't making enough profit was a fair and democratic point to discuss .Alistair

wierdscience
07-12-2009, 05:20 PM
If our politicians come up with a plan I for one will only go along with it on one condition-

They must be forced to use the same system they have designed for me.

But they won't,the bastards will force an expensive rationed system on us while they enjoy they're gold plated system.

I do wonder what will happen to the Dems once they're largest voting block ends up under rationed care:rolleyes: Chairman O will end up collecting his retirement 4 years early:)

Jim Shaper
07-12-2009, 05:29 PM
At least his retirement is rationed. None of this lifetime benefits and SS protection crap like they used to have.

I'd like him to return his pay too - he's spent far more than anyone he ever complained about in his campaign. BO: "Change - you won't have any of that left after I'm done with ya."

dp
07-12-2009, 05:32 PM
Alistair - I would much rather go off topic with you about turning blackwood for my practice chanter mouthpiece. I've never made one or turned blackwood, or ever made a chanter, but I think it would be very interesting.

The US health care system is greatly misrepresented, difficult to understand, and is what it is because we as a nation have not conscripted ourselves to provide universal health care by law. The good news is the streets of America are not littered with the bodies of those who have no access to health care because those without health care are not all that common. That changes when considering catastrophic health problems, but that is true everywhere.

And more importantly, it has nothing at all to do with HSM. I'd be happy to open a BBS site to discuss health care problems endlessly if there's enough interest. I've often wondered how such a site would go if it had no central topic. In such a site everything would be topical. My guess is it would quickly turn to sex and porn.

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 05:44 PM
DP you could be correct maybe it is too late to change certainly we will not see in America a uk type of system but this guy staggered me by the fact that many many millions of Americans have no access to health care sorry but I find that so sad in this age.And do I understand it all hell no hence this debate to see if I can learn what is going on not to lecture to anyone I am simply bemused,that More decent Americans don't do something about this type of shoddy practice sorry.Surely something has to be done.?.Alistair

speedy
07-12-2009, 05:45 PM
You have got to admire a man who is willing to stand up and speak a truth-- especially when he has retired;) I can understand that.
Private health insurance. I figure that if you're in the game of selling said cover then you want your client base to be as healthy and wealthy as possible. Why would you want the poor and sick on your books? It is a game for profit afterall, not a community welfare programme.
I mean welfare as- to be caring for.
We used to have a public health system that worked well---until private insurance made inroads here.

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 05:49 PM
D P maybe thats why a private system might not be best.I suppose some people think that lazy non working mainly Black people will get benefits at their expense , but the system is showing that anyone is liable to be cut off without healthcare.Now that's also wrong so why not make changes to the system to make sure most ordinary middle class Americans don't suffer like this beacuse of corporate greed and if you need help with a chanter ask me:D Alistair

Jim Shaper
07-12-2009, 06:08 PM
Why do you feel the need to racially bias your determination of who will be mooching the system?

There's probably far more poor white trash by volume than blacks, hispanics, or any other ethnicity. In fact, I welcome the Mexicans who come here to work, because every freaking one of them I've met wants to work for a better life than they had in Mexico. Get them on the books, teach them English (at their expense) and put them in the tax base.

If only we could also deport the lazy Americans - we could populate the nation with productive citizens and then maybe the working people wouldn't feel so pinched.

tattoomike68
07-12-2009, 06:10 PM
Don't let anyone bull$hit you, we already have free health care for the lame and lazy plus for Illegal immigrants.

Its the working poor who get screwed, even then they can get coverage for thier kids if they dont make too much.

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2009, 06:18 PM
Jim I was told this was the case by several Americans a few years ago.They were of the opinion that the ones who were not registered for welfare were mainly black people who have never worked in their lives and were pissed about the idea they should pay for them.But as this guy said it's now affecting 60 million Americans across the board.Not being prejudiced this was told to me that it was how the people felt in general.Something is wrong with the greed of the insurance companies and it's clearly getting worse.Alistair

speedy
07-12-2009, 06:24 PM
Don't let anyone bull$hit you, we already have free health care for the lame and lazy plus for Illegal immigrants.

Its the working poor who get screwed, even then they can get coverage for thier kids if they dont make too much.

We also have the same or similar here.

Freshly arrived bludgers who know how to work the system who have never contributed to our system and likely never will.
But that is the price for having signed up as a member of the sod useless interferring UN.

However, for the most part, taxpaying Kiwis also have a chance at using it when required. If our ailment will allow us to wait long enough for the refugees to be cared for first.

Teenage_Machinist
07-12-2009, 06:25 PM
Stand up, all victims of oppression,
For the tyrants fear your might!
Don't cling so hard to your possessions,
For you have nothing if you have no rights!
Let racist ignorance be ended,
For respect makes the empires fall!
Freedom is merely privilege extended,
Unless enjoyed by one and all.
So come brothers and sisters,
For the struggle carries on.
The Internationale,
Unites the world in song.
So comrades, come rally,
For this is the time and place!
The international ideal,
Unites the human race.



Screw... This... Thread!

The lazy class... does not exist.
If they do, a well-crafted system will stop them, and without forcing them to work. I'll have no more of the "acceptable" Right and Left.

Rustybolt
07-12-2009, 06:26 PM
D P maybe thats why a private system might not be best.I suppose some people think that lazy non working mainly Black people will get benefits at their expense , but the system is showing that anyone is liable to be cut off without healthcare.Now that's also wrong so why not make changes to the system to make sure most ordinary middle class Americans don't suffer like this beacuse of corporate greed and if you need help with a chanter ask me:D Alistair


Alistair. When thre figures are corrected for illegal aliens, people that choose not to spend the money, and people who are covered by other means, the figures are much lower.
No one is denied medical care here. All you have to do is walk into an emergency room and you will be taken care of. That is one of the reasons that insurance here is so expensive. The people who are paying are paying for those that dont. In california alone it's something like 50 million dollars a month. Another reason is that lawyers have found medicine to be a cash cow.
Finally. I don't think any government is qualified to make medical decisions that concern me or my family.

A.K. Boomer
07-12-2009, 06:31 PM
Alistair ---- we look at the word healthcare very differently - actually the biggest blessing in my life by far has been not being able to afford it - it forced me to figure out why everybodys sick and how to take better care of myself -- I never would have found it if I was some poor slob who could afford to be into the mainstream system, didnt think for himself and instead was reliant on the absolute hillbillies that are still sewing people up with their archaic hand tools and shop rags inside...
Real healthcare is taking care of ones health ------ not the patchwork BS get a part removed crap thats done after youv found out that youv already screwed the pooch.

Things are bad enough already with people being mindless idiots in the way they take care of themselves ---- now make it all "free" (and I use the term loosely) and they will become even more of a mindless twitt -------- No need to worry about ones health -- eat that third bag of pork rinds - the gubbermint will take care of my pathetic whimpering little existence.... Wrong message - and not even close to an answer.

speedy
07-12-2009, 06:31 PM
TM.
Yes we thought that we were an egalitarian society once...and for the most part we were.
Then we looked and listened to American advisers in the 80's.
After the Muldoon dynasty had done their job on our nation I think that by then we were beholding to the IMF:(


Real healthcare is taking care of ones health
I absolutely agree
Our food. Now there is a subject that requires close scrutiny.

dp
07-12-2009, 06:32 PM
DP you could be correct maybe it is too late to change certainly we will not see in America a uk type of system but this guy staggered me by the fact that many many millions of Americans have no access to health care sorry but I find that so sad in this age.And do I understand it all hell no hence this debate to see if I can learn what is going on not to lecture to anyone I am simply bemused,that More decent Americans don't do something about this type of shoddy practice sorry.Surely something has to be done.?.Alistair

Do your self a favor and search out some of those who have no access to health care. It helps to bring it down to real people rather than "millions". If there are millions, and if they truly have no access to health care, they should be easy to find.

When I was just entering the workforce in 1964 I needed to accept that I did not have the cash to cover all my health needs - I was 18/19, had a new baby and a wife, was bringing in $75/week, I had no health insurance, and we all had very good health care for non-catastrophic needs. My baby was well cared for, got all the shots, emergency room care the few times needed, and it cost me less than a week's pay. My next born (boy) was hit by a car at age 5. 3 days in the hospital, quite a miracle, really, no serious injuries - I paid nothing. My nephew, age 4, was hit by a car and was in intensive care for weeks, then on life support for 15 years at no cost to my sister. He never regained consciousness and passed away prior to turning 20. He was under continuous care all those years at no cost save to the community at large.

I don't have any more recent personal examples, but I'm impressed with what I've experienced particularly in view of the fact that "millions" are denied health care. I wonder if it is a phrasing problem where in fact these millions don't have health insurance as was my case. I do see that a lot, and it would imply there is no health care, but that is far from true.

The other odd thing about the term "health insurance" used in this context (for those who cannot afford it) is that it isn't insurance at all, but a gift of health care coverage from those who can afford it to those who cannot. And it's true that it even includes those who will not, but children should not suffer because of bad parenting. That isn't insurance - that is a lottery you always win.

It really needs research to better understand how we actually do care for those in our communities that cannot afford insurance coverage. Here is another example of how it's done: http://EddieKieger.com/ - it's a site I run and a success story I'm proud to be a part of.

JoeFin
07-12-2009, 07:26 PM
You got to be a “Right-Wing Maroon” not to see the gross excess cost involved in the current Healthcare system

The current tort system is but just 1 of them

20% unreimbursed Hospital cost. That means all of us that have Health Insurance chip in 20% for the dead beats that don’t, (that would include illegal aliens). BTW: a little 85 year old Grandmother on SSI would be lumped into the mix – so don’t say let them die in the lobby.

16% Administration cost. Compared to Medicaid which has a 1.5% administration cost it makes 1 wonder just how much does it cost to have people setting around denying claims to policy holders.

20-30% Profit Margin. So how many 17 year old girls should they let die to increase their profits – because that is what they do.

As I see it the money is already in the system. We just need legislation to see who gets what.

And if you think Healthcare isn't highly profitable then you need to look at "Healthcare Funds" on the NYSE

dp
07-12-2009, 07:35 PM
You got to be a “Right-Wing Maroon” not to see the gross excess cost involved in the current Healthcare system

The "Stupid Light" is lit.


20-30% Profit Margin. So how many 17 year old girls should they let die to increase their profits – because that is what they do.

My last word, since the stupid light is now lit. How many would die if the profit margin were zero?

Back on topic: I worked in the shop, today. Pictures on the way...

Dawai
07-12-2009, 07:38 PM
PHHFFFFTTTTT

That was a pickled egg fart...

David...

JoeFin
07-12-2009, 07:44 PM
The "Stupid Light" is lit.



My last word, since the stupid light is now lit. How many would die if the profit margin were zero?

Back on topic: I worked in the shop, today. Pictures on the way...

In your case Dp I'll have to revise my term to "Right-Wing Moron"


Family sues insurer who denied teen transplant
17-year-old girl died hours after Cigna finally agreed to pay for new liver

GLENDALE, Calif. - The family of a 17-year-old girl who died hours after her health insurer reversed a decision and said it would pay for a liver transplant plans to sue the company, their attorney said Friday.

Nataline Sarkisyan died Thursday at about 6 p.m. at the University of California, Los Angeles Medical Center. She had been in a vegetative state for weeks, said her mother, Hilda.

Attorney Mark Geragos said he plans to ask the district attorney to press murder or manslaughter charges against Cigna HealthCare in the case. The insurer “maliciously killed her” because it did not want to bear the expense of her transplant and aftercare, Geragos said.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22357873/

I heard a representative from CIGNA on a televised interview attempting to claim how good their insurance was by stating "90% of the people who need these type of procedures are processed with out delay"

Oh Geez what about the other 10% of rate payers. They arbirarily deny thier claim to increase their profit margin - What if your little girl is 1 of those 10%

speedy
07-12-2009, 07:46 PM
PHHFFFFTTTTT That was a pickled egg fart... David...

What, no flapping after noises?? You must be in fine physical shape:D

Mad Scientist
07-12-2009, 08:11 PM
Went analyzing our health system it is apparent the first and foremost goal of it is to make money. In the pursuit of that goal if it is able to actually help some people well that is just a fringe benefit. To understand how this system came to be you need to understand its history.

Originally doctors were not licensed or regulated, all that was required for you to be a doctor was that you called yourself one. Some of these early doctors tried to help their patient as best they could; others just took advantage of the patients. To provide better care research and teaching schools were set up. These schools developed new medicines and techniques and taught new doctors how to use them. This seemed like a good plan.

But for a doctor to retain his “license” he was required to only use the procedures that he was taught and dispense only the approved medicines. He was not allowed to try any new ideas on this own. As a result all medicinal care/money is funneled into the system. To further consolidate the flow of money into the system laws were passed prohibiting anyone who is not a licensed doctor from practicing medicine. Alternative remedies are ridiculed if not outright banned. If taken to the extreme a person can be accused of practicing medicine without a license if they gave water to someone dying of thirst.

But do not fear whatever your problem maybe big medicine has a pill for it.


http://www.cafeoflifepikespeak.com/Videos/Licensed%20To%20Pill.swf

vinito
07-12-2009, 09:35 PM
US health care would be a sick joke if it was funny at all.
For those of you who think how it's going is OK, take your head out of the damn sand. I'll give you the first overlook since if you think it's OK, you obviously have a decent insurance policy through your job (probably union) and wouldn't have much reason to see how bad it's crumbled down around you.

The true fact is that the only real focus of the whole industry is to make obscene income. Call it profit, income, frivolous lawsuit, whatever. It all comes from the same source, and that source is anyone outside the industry. You know... the people. The fact that any patient is treated within the system is only because they have to keep up just enough resemblance to what they tell you they are doing to perpetuate the myth, and thus the income.

No actual change will ever happen in this system either. Sure, they will shuffle the money around on the table a little and say they did something. But there is just too much money in the wrong hands and they fully intend to keep it that way. Sad fact is they will keep it that way too.

I've been told that they can't take your house or car away fro owing medical bills, but I don't believe that could be true. If I find that that is true, I am considering dropping my crappy "insurance". It covers nothing anyway. I wouldn't mind paying a health insurance premium if I got anything for my money, but the way they have it set up these days is that they take my money, then make me pay the first $2K for any medical expenses I have. That means anything folks. By the way, "co-pays" do NOT apply to that $2K deductible, so actually it probably comes to $2500. So basically they want quite a bit of money, then they want me to pay for my medical care anyway. I'm sure if I did make a claim, they would deny it anyways, or at least a big part of it, just as a matter of standard M.O. So if they can't take away everything I've worked for all my life with just three or four days in the hospital (and that would do it) then I would be much better off opting out of the grid.
Let me clarify: I am "on the books" as being insured, and I have the standard kind of policy that probably 80% of the other American workers have. But actually I am uninsured. Worse really, because not only do I have to pay for anything I need for my own health, but I get to hand them $3600/yr for what they call a "health insurance premium". BS! If I had the $3600/yr in my own account, then I could afford almost anything my body threw at me. By the way, I do not do much preventive measures like I would if I had actual insurance, so if that mole on my arm turns to cancer in 3 years, then wouldn't it be much more expensive for the insurance company then? Oh, yea I forgot - I'm sure they have that figured out so they won't have to pay then.

The health industry is sickening to look at. So much greed and lack of aptitude. It was starting to go downhill much faster about 10 years ago. Now it's a total cesspool which wants, and is trying to mandate by the way, all of us to pay in. They use fear just like the George W. administration was so good at to get their way. There are never consequences for their robbery, so why would they change anything? There's no incentive. Obama is smarter than W, but he's just a different flavor of the same machine, as are nearly all of them. I have absolutely no faith in any of them to do right by the people. Oh, I believe they will pass some health care "reform", but if you think you will be better off, then dream on. Anything they do or don't will gurantee that you and I pay more and get less. To make health care right would require that the status quo is burned to the ground and start it up again from scratch, and that just ain't going to happen. It's all a ponzi scheme folks. Make it complex and it's harder to see the core reality, but it's definitely nothing more than a colossal scam. Wake up.

I'm pretty sure that the only way for me to improve my standard of living is to try to move to one of the many countries who surpassed ours several years ago. Pretty sad. When I was young I never thought I'd need to emigrate from the US to improve my lot in life. Honestly it might not actually improve anything, but I am sure that the sucking of my personal paltry wealth will slow a bit. At this point I'd rather watch the wreck happen from outside.

For those of you who, I'm certain reply with some kind of flippant remark because you are blind and disagree, then I won't wish you well in your future health because you deserve what you get for burying your head. For everyone else, good luck. I can't help but see a lot of bad happening in the next decade or two (health industry is just the tip) and you will need all the luck you can get. Don't let them steal what you've got, because you're going to need that too.

Vince

p.s. One thin you'll never hear the talking heads mutter about is the difference between the "cost of health care" (which they are good at regurgitating now) and what you are "charged for health care". What you are charged is usually and roughly 30 to 50 times what it would actually cost to administer if you were charged by them for what they do similarly to what you could charge them for what you do. For a doctor to charge $300 to look at your unnecessary x-ray for less than 5 minutes to tell you you're fine is, at least, not fair (to be more honest, it's robbery too). I don't care what malpractice insurance costs, nobody on the planet is worth $3600 per hour, and when I say that I AM talking about the guy who is about to do surgery on my brain, and I mean that. NOBODY is worth that kind of money. Don't try to tell me that my tune will change when I'm on the table waiting for brain surgery, because you don't know me and I will tell you that NOBODY is worth that kind of money. If you think he's worth it, then YOU pay it.

and now, back to my lurking corner...

Rustybolt
07-13-2009, 07:00 PM
vinito. yeah, but wait till its free.

boslab
07-13-2009, 08:10 PM
Over the great pond the UK used to have a bloody brilliant health system, however our government think its a good idea to try to emulate yours, its not working, only a minority can get the quality of healthcare that was available to all, your right our teeth are bloody awful, why? all our State trained dentists were allowed to opt out of the NHS and become private patient only dentists, ive just been given a price for some fixed dentures, $43000 !
and my tax trained the B*****D, After allowing him into the country as an asylum seeker,.....Hooray for capitalist pretending to be Socialists. i want to emigrate but too old, how about Cuba, at least its sunny and the healthcare is supposed to be OK?
mark [ yes with terribly British teeth, i have some, most of the welsh have none!]
mark

Dawai
07-13-2009, 08:15 PM
Affordable dentures, Chattanooga Tn. Mine were if I remember correctly $600, I had 12 teeth pulled at once, all in the wrong places. This was for top and bottom plates, colored to spec, fitted perfectly, then.. All done within a week.

A man in Britain if that is true have a nice American vacation and go back with choppers.. come back for a refitting once and still be ahead.

gnm109
07-13-2009, 08:22 PM
Well whatever you think Evan your never wrong but it's an interesting debate sorry you didn't know that go back to google they'll be missing you your away from it by about two minutes aren't you and at least I#m not trying to take advantage of anyone elses divorce misery by trying to get his lifetimes collections of tools on the cheap:D:DAlistair


Moyers is a true left-wing idealogue. I wouldn't believe a word he says.

Yankee1
07-13-2009, 10:01 PM
I understand "La Raza" has said that illegals will be included in the new health plan. Wonder who pays for that? I don't believe they are talking about that in the press.
Yankee1

Rustybolt
07-13-2009, 10:07 PM
Bobslab.
I know a lot of people who made the trip to the U.S. the hard way. Don't ever get sick in Cuba unless you have a lot of money. The healthcare for the average revolutionary is little better than an butcher shop.

boslab
07-14-2009, 02:45 AM
Bobslab.
I know a lot of people who made the trip to the U.S. the hard way. Don't ever get sick in Cuba unless you have a lot of money. The healthcare for the average revolutionary is little better than an butcher shop.

I hear you, i think a dental vacation is on the cards, or I could even buy a 5 axis CNC and carve them out of a nice lump of machinable ceramic cheaper,.. not wishing to hijack the thread, there was a period of time not so long ago when the rest of the world looked at the US health system with awe,...the publicity afforded by advocates of health insurance painted a rosry picture of a kind of utopia far in excess of what you could expect in a poorer country.
that was when other countries like the UK started to try to emulate it, it looked like the system would allow the government to opt out of the health provider role and leave it to the insurance companys, with government supevision.
However the puplicity failed to illustrate the point that the poorer portion of the population would suffer, literally, and die too all for the want of insurance.
we now have the same set of problems, a two tier system, the affluent with insurance get nice new shiny hospitals with the best overpriced consultants.
the rest get public hospitals who are stretched to capacity so naturally the level of treatment is bare minimum, diagnostic procedeure is limited to the ability of a doctor walking past your bed and having a quick look at your chart, no scans or xrays they cost too much unless absolutly vital.
all driven by profit, oh well.
regards from third world used to be Great but now definatly below average Britain
mark

aostling
07-14-2009, 05:46 AM
After the Muldoon dynasty had done their job on our nation I think that by then we were beholding to the IMF:(


I was in a really foul mood the day after Piggy was elected. But remember, it was David Lange who dismembered the NZ egalitarian state.

OldRedFord
07-14-2009, 07:29 AM
I hear you, i think a dental vacation is on the cards, or I could even buy a 5 axis CNC and carve them out of a nice lump of machinable ceramic cheaper,.. not wishing to hijack the thread, there was a period of time not so long ago when the rest of the world looked at the US health system with awe,...the publicity afforded by advocates of health insurance painted a rosry picture of a kind of utopia far in excess of what you could expect in a poorer country.
that was when other countries like the UK started to try to emulate it, it looked like the system would allow the government to opt out of the health provider role and leave it to the insurance companys, with government supevision.
However the puplicity failed to illustrate the point that the poorer portion of the population would suffer, literally, and die too all for the want of insurance.
we now have the same set of problems, a two tier system, the affluent with insurance get nice new shiny hospitals with the best overpriced consultants.
the rest get public hospitals who are stretched to capacity so naturally the level of treatment is bare minimum, diagnostic procedeure is limited to the ability of a doctor walking past your bed and having a quick look at your chart, no scans or xrays they cost too much unless absolutly vital.
all driven by profit, oh well.
regards from third world used to be Great but now definatly below average Britain
mark

From your post it makes it sound like nationalized health care is a nice, cozy answer. :rolleyes:

chief
07-14-2009, 07:59 AM
Everyone seems to forget that up until the mid 70's we didn't have these health care cost problems, a little due diligence can pin point exactly when health costs ran wild. You need look no further than Ted Kennedy, same goes the dramatic increase in illegal aliens, once again Ted Kennedy.
THINK!! There is a reason Reid , Pelosi and Waxman don't want to give you time to read their bills. For those of you who sign things without reading them please email me, your documents are ready.

speedy
07-14-2009, 08:00 AM
I was in a really foul mood the day after Piggy was elected. But remember, it was David Lange who dismembered the NZ egalitarian state.
Yes Allan. It was David, Richard and his b*stard mate Roger amongst others. But Muldoon set the stage.
Roger is still here doing his best for the current regime of privateers. So there will be more carve up of our national assets for the benefit of the private sector shareholders.
Our health system is not a patch on what it was before ...

Dawai
07-14-2009, 11:28 AM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs125.snc1/5380_1081422797963_1298124187_30190209_2620658_n.j pg
Bedbugs anyone?

andy_b
07-14-2009, 11:48 AM
i figure we all die, some just die sooner and with less teeth.

andy b.

speedy
07-14-2009, 08:40 PM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs125.snc1/5380_1081422797963_1298124187_30190209_2620658_n.j pg
Bedbugs anyone?

That is an ugly critter.
Do you get one of those with every beer???

Dawai
07-14-2009, 08:58 PM
Speedy.
That's a pace salsa jar he is in, not a beer bottle, much larger. He has one pincher on his head, other on his back.. both meet when he raises his head.. the one that got my dog was a sideways pincher.

He is about three inches long.. goes from one side of the jar to the other.

Eastern Hercules Beetle, Dynastes tityus, which is the largest beetle in this part of the country.

Hercules beetle grubs feed on decaying plant material, especially logs, stumps, dead leaves, and rotten fruit. Part of the scarab family.

Health care? why not kick a government in the teeth while it is down???

fixxit
07-15-2009, 02:59 AM
I read a lot of fear here being expressed about "Government Run Healthcare."

I don't know of any seniors refusing to sign up for Medicare.
I don't hear many complaints from seniors about Medicare.

In fact I have many friends who can't wait until they reach 65 to sign up for Medicare.
Medicare is "Government run Healthcare" and it works.

Perhaps what we need is the option to buy in to a medicare type health plan, that gives the bloated insurance industry some competition.

Fixxit

Rustybolt
07-15-2009, 08:17 AM
I read a lot of fear here being expressed about "Government Run Healthcare."

I don't know of any seniors refusing to sign up for Medicare.
I don't hear many complaints from seniors about Medicare.

In fact I have many friends who can't wait until they reach 65 to sign up for Medicare.
Medicare is "Government run Healthcare" and it works.

Perhaps what we need is the option to buy in to a medicare type health plan, that gives the bloated insurance industry some competition.

Fixxit



Can't we all just get the plan that the U.S. Congress, The President, and SCOTUS has? The corollary would be; are they going to have to use the single payer system as well? After all, if it's good enough for the taxpayer it's good enough for our political betters. Right?

Dawai
07-15-2009, 09:09 AM
The whole deal is just another form to take away the lower "working incomes" and distribute it along the "non working classes". Ie: more taxes.

"State taxes?" Income taxes, "rights to exist in property you do not own" but are granted Privileges deeded by the state, how else could the country "borrow" money without collateral? your car? also granted "title" and owned by the state. You pay taxes on it each year to possess it and drive it upon the highway. Even farm vehicles not driven on highways are supposed to be taxed. It never ends.

Most states deny Allodial deed upon the land. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allodial_title This was a god given right to "stand upon the land" and possess it without interference from state or individuals upon your rights given by god. This land could not be borrowed money upon by the country.

Health care? same deal, who will pay for it? not the people who implement it into law, and it is coming. More money to steal by our elected officials. Why else would a "local inspector" want a job that pays $24,000 a year? for all the side income that comes from it.

YOU brits, well you are subjects of the queen, you, everything you own is actually "OWNED" by the crown.. it has happened to America in the last one hundred years and continues to spiral downward likewise. Someday you will tire of it and take sharpened sticks down to the parliment and attempt to overthrow the corruption. That did not work too well in Tinnamen square (china) against tanks?

As we, in our fattened state of poverty will also. There are plenty of ways to enslave a people, credit abuse and taxation is a good one. As has happened here in the last hundred years.. Free housing for all, free medical benifits for all.. Hurrah.. NOW, you expect the "working class" to pay for it?? Hurrah for Communism.

Tear all the foreclosed homes down for firewood. Or just light them up right there. Poor choices are rewarded.. Father a dozen kids, the state pays more for that poor choice. Let your 15 yr old child get shot by a policeman for "walking to the liquor store with a handgun and getting into a shootout"? Soon to be awarded huge sums of money..
http://www.wdef.com/news/chattanooga_mother_speaks_after_15_yr_old_killed_i n_police_shooting/07/2009

Bunch of wimps. What ever happened to rewarding productivity? Who are these people who are trying to enslave us all?

I have the right to vote, I just wonder if my vote counts? no paper records. Who is in control, no individual..

Probably it should be only "land owners" have the right to choose the country's directions. THE useless and non-productive should starve or become more productive.

I have several minority friends who have gotten 3 months behind on house payments because the "government" promised to bail them out.. they don't want to miss out on free money. If they are paid up, guess what? Who knows? perhaps they are right and I am wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI
I'd like to know where this woman is?? they chased down the plumber later.. he has notoriety. Where is Peggy Josephs childrens father? Does she really have to worry about putting gas in her car? Mortages?

Perhaps working for a living is over rated. Free housing, free healthcare.. It sure has worked out for OCTOMOM.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMlVFVKZK2o&feature=related Looking for Peggy Joseph? I found a rebuttal. By a black man saying she spoke out of turn.

dp
07-15-2009, 12:45 PM
Here's your new healthcare flow chart:

http://gopleader.gov/UploadedFiles/House-Democrats-Health-Plan.pdf

And remember when bi-partisanship was so very important? That's gone, too. Hopefully the dems will take the time to read this one:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a4.kYDWV9erc

I hope science is working on a cure for national health care...

andy_b
07-15-2009, 01:50 PM
for some reason the solution to this "health care crisis" always seems to draw me back to a song by the Dead Kennedys.

andy b.

boslab
07-19-2009, 03:18 AM
Another even more bizzare twist, i was in the process of having a uk healthcare rant when i was dutifully informed by my GP that the US has an even worse situation developing, folks without medical insurance are useing animal antibiotics as they cant afford anything else, eg fish antibiotics, canine antibiotics, also canine painkillers [strong ones like Tramadol], is there any substance in these claims?
mark

A.K. Boomer
07-19-2009, 09:35 AM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs125.snc1/5380_1081422797963_1298124187_30190209_2620658_n.j pg
Bedbugs anyone?



I never knew those grew in that color with the dalmation spots,,, Nature is amazing --- When bugs grow to that size mother N. knows that they are going to kick up allot of debris just in trying to get around at normal bug speeds - so she made them evolve that type of RV fringe on the back of them to keep dust and dung out of the eye's and noses of other bugs that are maybe following to close,
While at first this sounds like the bug might just be being courteous to others I can assure you that's not how evolution works --- If I had to guess at it I believe the devise came to be so as not to piss any other bugs off - esp. the red ant as if you piss off one red ant then you piss them all off and its counterproductive to survival.
I feel it important to let everyone know that this is just a guess and im not an evolutionary expert of any kind.

lazlo
07-19-2009, 10:07 AM
I read a lot of fear here being expressed about "Government Run Healthcare."

I don't know of any seniors refusing to sign up for Medicare.
I don't hear many complaints from seniors about Medicare.

Fox was showing a group of concerned citizens protesting Socialized Healthcare. Amusingly, the lead protester was a veteran, as proudly proclaimed on his shirt and hat.
The Veteran's Administration, of course, is Government Run Healthcare, and pure Socialized Healthcare in the strictest sense.

So the issue, as Fixxit points out, is not Government Run Healthcare or Socialized Healthcare -- we have 10's of millions of people on Medicare and VA Healthcare. The issue is that people don't want to pay for someone else to be covered.

I have a grumpy guy at work who complains bitterly about having to pay county taxes for the school system, because he doesn't have children.

andy_b
07-19-2009, 10:28 AM
Another even more bizzare twist, i was in the process of having a uk healthcare rant when i was dutifully informed by my GP that the US has an even worse situation developing, folks without medical insurance are useing animal antibiotics as they cant afford anything else, eg fish antibiotics, canine antibiotics, also canine painkillers [strong ones like Tramadol], is there any substance in these claims?
mark

yes, and they are eating canned dog food and cat food as well. heck, some even make soup out of old shoe leather. :rolleyes:

where the heck do these things come from? any medicine my dog needs is as expensive as the same medicine for me. hopefully your GP doesn't get his medical info from the same source as his urban legends.

andy b.

lazlo
07-19-2009, 10:34 AM
any medicine my dog needs is as expensive as the same medicine for me.

You're kidding, right? Veterinary tetracycline is $10 for a bottle of 100 250mg tabs. A human prescription, thanks to our corporate profit driven system, is $50 to $100:

http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Cycline-Tetracycline-250-Caps/dp/B0002YF9U0

andy_b
07-19-2009, 10:42 AM
I read a lot of fear here being expressed about "Government Run Healthcare."

I don't know of any seniors refusing to sign up for Medicare.
I don't hear many complaints from seniors about Medicare.

In fact I have many friends who can't wait until they reach 65 to sign up for Medicare.
Medicare is "Government run Healthcare" and it works.

Perhaps what we need is the option to buy in to a medicare type health plan, that gives the bloated insurance industry some competition.

Fixxit

all of my older relatives are on Medicare. they seem to like it, but they DO NOT like the latest plans being floated around Congress at present. they also complain constantly about benefits being cut back more each year. i think their fear is that once the govt fully assumes control for everyone that benefits will REALLY be cut because even they realize there is no way the govt can afford to provide coverage for the entire population.

in reality it doesn't matter what type of plan the govt comes up with. there will always be people with money to go outside the system and get whatever procedures they want, and there will always be people who receive the minimum the system has to offer. the people who receive the minimum will always complain that they don't get what someone else gets. until someone in the govt has the balls to tell the people at the bottom "too bad, if you want more it is up to you to better yourself", things will never change.

andy b.

andy_b
07-19-2009, 10:47 AM
You're kidding, right? Veterinary tetracycline is $10 for a bottle of 100 250mg tabs. A human prescription, thanks to our corporate profit driven system, is $50 to $100:

http://www.amazon.com/Fish-Cycline-Tetracycline-250-Caps/dp/B0002YF9U0


you can order human medicine from overseas for the same discounts. if you're going to buy your meds online, you can shop for cheap human meds the same as cheap animal meds. i'm not saying i would do it, i'm just saying there are ways to do it. i prefer to have my family (including pets) receive their medical advice and medicine from an actual human.

andy b.

bfburk
07-19-2009, 10:53 AM
:) I use the VA for my healthcare and I think it is great! My mother and all her sisters are on Medicare and they think it is great! Government run healthcare works fine as far as I am concerned.

You will find people complaining about any insurance program. I hear complaints on TV and the internet about people in Canada who wait in long lines for elective surgery and who go to the USA and pay for the surgery. If you are getting a tummy tuck or nose job, I can't blame the government of Canada for rationing that kind of surgery. I don't think taxpayers should be paying for that kind of surgery. I also don't think insurance companies should cover men getting free Viagra here in the USA.

When you see individual health costs in the USA around $500 per month and Family costs around $13000 per year you realize something has to be done.

lazlo
07-19-2009, 10:53 AM
you can order human medicine from overseas for the same discounts.

That's precisely my point. You can buy name-brand medicine in Canada, Mexico, or Europe for way less than in the 'States, because of corporate profiteering.

By the way, we'll never have universal healthcare in the US: the Pharmaceutical and Health Insurance Corporations spend nearly half a Billion each year in Congressional donations, and are second only to Oil and Gas in the sheer number of lobbyists they employ (something like 2.5 healthcare lobbyists for each congressman).

boslab
07-19-2009, 12:02 PM
I think what he was getting at was that without insurance folks are activly self medicating, hoping that a course of antibiotics will do the trick without seein a medical type, i suppose they would be right MOST of the time, when i looked it up i found hundreds of posts wanting to know of the correct dosage to take, nearly all stated insurance was the root cause and that animal medication was cheaper eg erythromycin at $9 from the aquarium shop, $50/100 on a script, truthfully in place of nothing else i cant say i blame them but it is sad,
mark

Rustybolt
07-19-2009, 12:55 PM
That's precisely my point. You can buy name-brand medicine in Canada, Mexico, or Europe for way less than in the 'States, because of corporate profiteering.


Yeah maybe we should be more like Mexico.

3 or 4 years ago Pfizer took a hit on 900 million dollars in drug trials THEY decided were too risky to produce. Risky as in side effects. No they cannot write down that kind of R&D. they ate the whole thing. Something that Canada and Mexico didn't have to do.
When you say "evil corporate profiteering" I think you actually mean evil trial lawyers manipulating the system for their own profit. If corporate profits are so evil why is tobacco even being grown in this country?

lazlo
07-19-2009, 01:46 PM
When you say "evil corporate profiteering" I think you actually mean evil trial lawyers manipulating the system for their own profit. If corporate profits are so evil why is tobacco even being grown in this country?

I didn't say "evil" corporate profits. Trial lawyers have little to do with it: the reason we have the most expensive health care in the world (we pay around 3 - 5 times the equivalent health care cost of any industrialized nation) is because a trillion dollar healthcare market has embedded itself here, and we (workers and employers alike) have to pay Cigna, United Health Care, Aetna et al's corporate profits for being nothing more than middlemen. In other words, they don't provide any useful service other than billing and accounting, yet they account for the vast majority of the health care cost.

So, for example, Novartis -- a Swiss Company, is the world's largest pharmaceutical company, and out-spends Pfizer on research, yet the cost of their pharmaceuticals in Switzerland is 2 - 3x lower than the same drugs sold in the States. Yet their revenues are higher than Pfizer's.

PeteM
07-19-2009, 03:51 PM
This is a long answer (sorry) -- but we've got to fix half a dozen things to get healthcare right in this country. This isn't a liberal or conservative issue, it's one of our national crises.

We pay almost twice as much capita on healthcare as the next big spender, but our outcomes (infant mortality, longevity, etc.) are in around 30th place. Here in the US, we're shown the Ferrari and told how wonderful it is. We're paying Ferrari prices, But the nation is riding around in Yugos.

I'm pretty much dead center politically, voting both sides depending on the candidate. I'd have to say that the Moyers piece Alistair started with is a simply terrific bit of journalism. Watch it, even if you're sure the world is flat. A couple folks said, in effect, they won't even listen to or trust what Moyers' guests say (prominently an ex insurance exec) because they've been told he's a lefty. In this case, that's foolish.

Medical inflation is 2.5% more each year. The costs will bankrupt us. The health consequences will debilitate us. This is the big "entitlement" issue to fix.

Folks like Michael Moore blame the insurance companies all of this. As Moyers' sources tell it, the truth is that private insurance companies piss away "only" about 27% of of our health care dollars.

An insurance company is a sort of glorified money changer, with three functions. 1) collect money. 2) pay medical bills. 3) make sure you're paying for real patient care, not crooks. Lots of enterprises perform similar functions -- the IRS takes and disburses money and chases crooks. A charity collects donations and disburses the money to worthy causes. An efficient organization charges about 3% off the top for this money changing function; and it's about what Medicare charges.

In contrast, insurance companies take 20% off the top and are always looking for more. The Bill Moyers piece is especially illuminating in this respect. The current system also forces doctors, hospitals, and patients through billing hoops. Complex submissions, denials, re-submittals -- that probably waste another 10-15% of health care dollars. So we spend maybe 30% of health care dollars to do a 3% job of collecting insurance and paying bills. Wanna guess where that extra 27% or so is going?

Insurance company execs will tell you they are "innovating" and that you don't want some bureaucrat socializing your payments and rationing your care. Here's the truth: an insurance executive never innovated a cure for anything. Their innovations are aimed at increasing the percentage they keep.

As for rationing, get over it. It has to happen under any system. Look at your insurance policy, there's already probably a $1 million lifetime cap. If you get $500,000 sick your insurance company will often fight to delay or deny the claim. So, here in the States we have a choice. We can have some Wall St. executive ration our care and take 20% off the top. Their motivation is to take more if they can. Or we can have some government bureaucrat ration our care and take 3% off the top. Their motivation is to bumble through the day. Neither situation is ideal, but it's clear who's going to do the better job of screwing medical consumers.

We also probably want a ban on health care companies contributing to political campaigns. The corruption on both sides of the aisle is staggering -- and it's now playing out in the health care "debate."

In my mind, having a government option to collect premiums and pay bills is a must have. Single payer could be even more efficient, though harder politically. Insurance companies are right to fear their 20% off the top won't look so good then.

In the best of worlds a few new innovaters will emerge, who get the transaction costs down to 2% or so (e.g. like credit card processing, which must also fight fraud) and then add extra value and fraud protections so they can charge maybe 5% off the top and keep 1% -- still a huge number in a trillions of millions of dollars healthcare industry.

I think PayPal is a pretty lousy anti-customer company. But, then compare them to insurance companies. Paypal manages to collect money from people they don't know, pay it to other people, handle disputes, deal with fraud, and provide value added services like automating almost all the rest of a transaction (notifications, shipping, follow up). They charge a few percent and make a profit doing this with even tiny transactions (compared to the mega dollar flows of medicine). You might argue that PayPal sucks, but many insurance companies suck just as much -- and charge 10 times as much for essentially the same services. Imagine what a really good company could do in the medical payments space.

We should also streamline and somewhat standardize billing so that doctors and other providers have only one set of procedures to follow rather than different hoops to jump through for different bill payers. If you want to write to your congressman, tell him you want a government option in direct competition with private insurance companies.

Getting medical records right can also offer savings IF we get the privacy issues right.

Next we add half the lawyers suing doctors to the unemployment lines. Their impact in terms of higher insurance premiums for doctors and having doctors prescribe unnecessary tests may add maybe another 5% to health care costs. Some sort of reform really should be simple.

A larger target, perhaps as large as the billions given to insurance companies, is the inefficiency of the health care itself. I had an experience several years ago of visiting an emergency room (pulled a string, attached to a nail thirty feet away, nail enters back of hand). Basically they did everything in triplicate, but never quite right. It's the opposite of manufacturing where you try to do things just once, and get them 99.999% right on the first try.

Since then I've looked at every doctor encounter from a quality and productivity standpoint -- and am convinced there's 20% savings easily to be had. Right now, we don't even have incentives in place to spur operational excellence. In particular, patients need to be able to assess the quality of their care more easily and directly.

It's also amazing to me that no one from either party is addressing the issue of personal responsibility in any meaningful way. IMO, if a disease or accident strikes through bad luck, that person deserves a full share of whatever care our society can afford and beyond that what they personally can afford. But when someone rides a motorcylcle without a helmet, or gains 200 pounds through sheer inertia, smokes two packs of cigarettes a day, or considers meth a recreational drug, then it isn't so clear we should foot the bills for their brain drains, diabetes meds, lung transplant, etc.

The issues of health care for illegals, deadbeats, and prisoners, and the like also fit in here somewhere.

The basic claim is that government-run medical care is already going to freeloaders, while hard-working citizens will get socialized and rationed care with some evil bureaucrat denying them their share. It's a little confusing why bureaucrats would want to do this, since most illegals and prisoners have no money or votes to buy the affections of bureaucrats. Still, there have been well publicized instances of idiocy.

The illegals question can and should be solved outside the medical question. Once we figure out who we want as citizens and who we don't, the problem with unfunded emergency room care should go away.

The deadbeats and prisoners deal is may be equal in complexity to healthcare. Just why is it that such a huge percentage of our population is sucking value from the country rather than adding to it? In any case, health care for prisoners whether miserable or improved is probably only a 1% factor in the bigger picture. Personally, it's hard for me to believe that prisoners are routinely getting the best medical care. But, hey, if it's an option and I need a heart bypass, maybe I can just shoot someone in the face or steal billions from someone's savings as my last resort?

Finally, there's also the issue of healthcare innovation. A male born in 1900 had a life expectancy of 45 years. For a boy born today it's more like 75 (and heading down for the first time in a century, due to diabesity). Those extra 30 years of life span came more from clean water, draining swamps, sanitary sewers, safer jobs, better diets, and refrigerated rather than spoiled food than pure medicine. Even today there are many forms of healthcare innovation, not necessarily all of them from pills in a bottle.

Pharmaceutical execs like to talk about how they need to be free to innovate. But as with the insurance companies, that's just part of the story. First, the typical pharmaceutical company now spends more on advertising and stimulating demand (as if we needed to stimulate demand for a cure for cancer) than on R&D. The average brilliant medical researcher is happy as a clam with a new lab, the admiration of colleagues, and maybe $250K a year in salary. The average pharmaceutical executive, on the other hand, wants $250 million to a billion or so for hiring that researcher and ad agency. Don't even get me started about such issues as not negotiating prices to be as good as, say, Canada. It's another case where the fundamental motivations and outcomes are cockeyed.

Imagine how much stronger this country would be if we spent less on health care, but were the world's healthiest and most vigorous people. If you want to make progress on that, now's the time to hold both Democratic and Republican politicians to account.

wierdscience
07-19-2009, 04:40 PM
Yes we do need to hold Republicans and Democrats accountable.

However more importantly we need to address this one problem at a time and make changes where needed over a period of time.

The worst thing we can do is sign off on this idiotic plan being forced down our throats.

We first need to tackle two problems first.Medical tort against hospitals,doctors and drug companies,end the litigation lottery.We have become a nation of people who expect a happy outcome no matter what and we also expect all drugs to have zero side effects.We must once again be willing to accept some risk.

Next illegal aliens and dead beats.We constantly hear ourselves being compared to the rest of the industrialized nation.Problem is we aren't like them and never will be.Not in culture,not in demographics and not in thinking.No system anywhere can survive if 12million non-payers are dumped into it.

Insurance reform would be next,allow people to buy outside they're state and only the coverage they need.

See what those changes do before knee jerking into the abyss.Somehow we managed to get along fine in this country for most of our history.We need to look at what has changed since then and correct it.

And I still say I will not participate in any system unless the Congress and the President are forced to use the same one.

Rustybolt
07-19-2009, 06:45 PM
I didn't say "evil" corporate profits. Trial lawyers have little to do with it: the reason we have the most expensive health care in the world (we pay around 3 - 5 times the equivalent health care cost of any industrialized nation) is because a trillion dollar healthcare market has embedded itself here, and we (workers and employers alike) have to pay Cigna, United Health Care, Aetna et al's corporate profits for being nothing more than middlemen. In other words, they don't provide any useful service other than billing and accounting, yet they account for the vast majority of the health care cost.

So, for example, Novartis -- a Swiss Company, is the world's largest pharmaceutical company, and out-spends Pfizer on research, yet the cost of their pharmaceuticals in Switzerland is 2 - 3x lower than the same drugs sold in the States. Yet their revenues are higher than Pfizer's.




We also pay for the research and experimentation that the rest of the industrialized world either can't or refuses to do.
Yes it's expensive-thanks to trial lawyers- but I can trael to 4 hospitals and nemerous clinics within a tem minutes drive and not have to wait for care.

PeteM
07-19-2009, 07:58 PM
Weirdscience -- we'd probably agree on the list of things to fix, but not the priority.

I'd put insurance reform first -- it's costing us 15-20% of health care dollars.

Tort reform costs a couple percent in terms of actual judgements, but maybe as much as 5-10% in CYA health care. I think there's a good bill, yet to be written, that simultaneously makes frivolous lawsuits less lucrative AND moves us toward fuller disclosure of doctor and hospital outcomes. We keep better statistics on baseball players then we do medical practitioners. So, one bill gives doctors something they deserve (less stupid lawsuits) and gives the public something it deserves (the information needed to be an informed consumer).

Illegals are likely not even a 5% of costs problem. First, less than that % of the population is illegal. Second, they are less likely to consume health care. But more to the point, this issue belongs outside of the medical discussion. Once we figure out who we want in this country -- and who we don't -- the problem goes away. The place to fix this (and other issues, like educational entitlement) is in immigration policy.

"Deadbeats" is a harder problem. I do believe we should be held accountable for our lifestyles and behaviors and there are ways to see that our best and costliest medical care goes to value-adding citizens rather than, say, chronically criminal meth addicts. We manage to do that fairly well in some cases, say kidney transplants. We haven't figured it out yet for the system as a whole.

I do like the idea that any insurance program for citizens should be good enough for our elected officials.

Teenage_Machinist
07-19-2009, 08:11 PM
bama is smarter than W, but he's just a different flavor of the same machine, as are nearly all of them. I have absolutely no faith in any of them to do right by the people. Oh, I believe they will pass some health care "reform", but if you think you will be better off, then dream on. Anything they do or don't will gurantee that you and I pay more and get less. To make health care right would require that the status quo is burned to the ground and start it up again from scratch, and that just ain't going to happen. It's all a ponzi scheme folks. Make it complex and it's harder to see the core reality, but it's definitely nothing more than a colossal scam. Wake up.

You can see through it, but are you brave enough to solve it? Perhaps I am not. Obama, in addition to being smarter, is less directly evil, but he is still a bollard on the road to the Era of Infinite Light.

Do not be decieved by fear of entitlement, indeed, under the Internationale Council no person illegally within the bounds of an administrative region shall suffer, but the cause of their intrusion shall be made null. Yet they will be removed and be punished for their intrusion.

I see no reason for rationing; when scientific agriculture (in a more natural form than todays) and efficient production methods are applied, all things-medical care, food, shelter, and goods will be in easy excess, and the extra labor applied to the thousands of great projects that will drive Humanity into the stars. Nor should your worry that the system may be usurped by those who are lazy; jobs will be found for them, and their life shall become a state of horrid simplicity if they do not pay.

This is the blazing perfection of a well-engineered system. People will not be forced to work or assigned to jobs like draft animals, but they will not be able to soak. People with an excess of children, for example, might receive day care and people who are unemployed will receive education benefits, and job search priority. The Labor Shortage will be carefully maintained.


I't won't be the war that right-wingers predict they will win with their automatic weapons, nor the election of a new candidate. When the time is right, instead, we will pull the carpet from beneath the feet of the conventionalists as it was nearly a century ago. Then, without bloodshed or insurrection, the Donkey and Elephant will pass to the world governed by the winged angel of international social community.


Those who see the receivers of wellfare as consisting of cheats and fools, cannot imagine that the system could be engineered to be cheat and fool resistant.

Those who reject the social contract and prefer to play by the (nonexistent) rules of "rugged individualism" and supposed natural justice can pursue the solitary and wretched life that awaits them in the backwaters of the world. There, the vanguards of the International Council will ensure that their children have a right to choose the benefits-and the labor- of the social world.

"become more productive or die???"
For that, you will be left out of the Society. You yourself may become unproductive one day. We will reward productivity- incomes vary by one order of magnitude based on productivity, with education for increased productivity available.

Long Live the Republic, the Community, and Humanity!

huntinguy
07-19-2009, 09:13 PM
A friend of the family lost a mother to the European health care system. She wasn’t sick enough to treat (beginning stages of cancer) so they (the doctors) sent her home. Then when she went back she was too sick to treat so they gave her hospice care until she died: Great system.

My son got sick (stomach flu) a few months back and passed out. He was taken to the hospital and checked out; one of the tests they ran was an MRI. When he passed out he hit the floor hard enough to cause bleeding in the brain. Had he been in the European system I would have lost my son. As it was because the hospitals’ are afraid of being sued so they run more tests than the European hospitals (Btw, the doctors in the European system do not have a choice in the treatment, it is prescribed by legislation.) The doctor that treated my son had just come back from an exchange program with teaching hospitals. That is how I know what the difference in treatment is.

As for law suits, yes there are tones (like the European spelling?) here as compared to Europe. I have seen the cost of insurance drive doctors out of private practice (one of our doctors gave up after insurance premiums’ reached $250,000). In Europe malpractice suits are almost un-heard of.

Is it the insurance companies? No they need to stay in business after being sued for every thing, (if a baby is bruised or the parents think it is bruised at birth the doctor has to defend him/her self against a law suit, and yes it does happen).

Is it the lawyers that want to make a quick buck? Didn’t John Edwards become a millionaire from just one law suit? That was millions that came out of the healthcare/medical insurance system.

The real culprit of our medical dilemma is us. Everyone that sues or dodges out on a bill or lets it happen.

Single payer system, what one thing does the government do well and not charges an arm and leg for? Will it still stop the law suits? Or will it just take my son from me.

I will stick with what we have now and work for tort reform!

PeteM
07-19-2009, 10:32 PM
. . . because the hospitals’ are afraid of being sued so they run more tests than the European hospitals . . .

I will stick with what we have now and work for tort reform!
Medical care is a pretty emotional issue for all of us, especially when we've seen our kids at risk. In this case, I'm trying to understand your idea of how we go from #30 or so in the world in health care outcomes to the best.

First, it's good that we have all the lawyers suing the hospitals, because that meant your son got an MRI?

Then, the main thing to fix is tort reform?

Tort reform is needed, but it's a smaller issue compared to the profiteering of middlemen and the screwed up incentives and productivity throughout the system.

In an ideal system, MRI's would be so cheap (more like a half hour's worth of CNC machining time) a father wouldn't hesitate to pay for them. The capital equipment cost and skills required are about the same, but our system manages to make an hour of MRI time 20x or so the cost.

wierdscience
07-19-2009, 11:18 PM
Weirdscience -- we'd probably agree on the list of things to fix, but not the priority.

I'd put insurance reform first -- it's costing us 15-20% of health care dollars.

Tort reform costs a couple percent in terms of actual judgements, but maybe as much as 5-10% in CYA health care. I think there's a good bill, yet to be written, that simultaneously makes frivolous lawsuits less lucrative AND moves us toward fuller disclosure of doctor and hospital outcomes. We keep better statistics on baseball players then we do medical practitioners. So, one bill gives doctors something they deserve (less stupid lawsuits) and gives the public something it deserves (the information needed to be an informed consumer).

Illegals are likely not even a 5% of costs problem. First, less than that % of the population is illegal. Second, they are less likely to consume health care. But more to the point, this issue belongs outside of the medical discussion. Once we figure out who we want in this country -- and who we don't -- the problem goes away. The place to fix this (and other issues, like educational entitlement) is in immigration policy.

"Deadbeats" is a harder problem. I do believe we should be held accountable for our lifestyles and behaviors and there are ways to see that our best and costliest medical care goes to value-adding citizens rather than, say, chronically criminal meth addicts. We manage to do that fairly well in some cases, say kidney transplants. We haven't figured it out yet for the system as a whole.

I do like the idea that any insurance program for citizens should be good enough for our elected officials.

The first two problems I mentioned are directly related to the cost of health care.My cousin is a doctor,has been for years,never a single claim on his malpractice insurance and it's nearly $60,000/year now,hospitals pay even more.It's also gotten to the point now where nurses are being sued.The Tort lottery must be closed.Loser pays law would eliminate a lot of it,many insurance companies simply pay out settlements rather than fight a case in court.If they had a mechanism to recoup they're legal expenditures they might be more inclined to fight.IIRC there is a similar system to Loser pays in Canada.

My brother is an ER supervising nurse in a town of 65,000.In that town there are quite a few industries that use illegal labor.He says 40% of the people they see are illegal.Everything from a head cold to a gunshot comes in.They offer cancer treatment and cardiac surgery,all of it FOC to walk ins.It's free for them because his hospital receives federal funds and falls under the Hill-Burton act.It costs his hospital millions a month and this is just one of 4,000 facilities nation wide that provide services under Hill-Burton.Those federal funds pay for capital improvements,new equipment etc,but not the day to day facility costs.Some of those are picked up by The states medicaid system and the rest are charged off to paying customers.

The problem got so bad here and the feds refused to do anything about our medical system was running a $95m/year deficit which violates the state constitution.The state senate recently passed and the governor signed into law a fine of $10,000 per employee for any business found hiring illegals.Finally the numbers are coming down even in the criminal system.I have nothing against anyone coming here to make a better life for themselves,just don't do it at my expense.It's an insult to those who immigrate here legally to let all these folks just land here willy-nilly and use the country for an ATM machine.

Oh and we do need insurance portability and shopability.When I went looking for a policy last year I had a very difficult time finding what I wanted.I more or less was given a choice of what was availible in my state.I finally found what I wanted,but it would have been cheaper if I was one state over.