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wierdscience
07-15-2009, 09:36 PM
Recently acquired an older Elox electron drill (tap burner).Tried online for a manual,no joy.

Hoping somebody here might have a manual or has used one.

The controls are pretty straight forward,but what do I use for coolant?Opinions from folks I know have ranged from water-sol coolant to anti-freeze.

Looks to be a handy machine,even if just used for burning out taps.

lazlo
07-15-2009, 09:39 PM
I'm not familiar with the machine Darin, but that's just a simple EDM sinker, right? You can get Hangsterfer's Crystal Brite EDM fluid from MSC for pretty cheap: $80 for a 5 gallon pail.

38_Cal
07-15-2009, 09:40 PM
Can't help you on either a manual or information, but you know that now you have it, you'll never break another tap in it's size range again!

David
Montezuma, IA

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 09:53 PM
Can't help you on either a manual or information, but you know that now you have it, you'll never break another tap in it's size range again!

David
Montezuma, IA

Well the purpose for buying it was to aid people who break taps off in expensive things frequently in exchange for money:)

The other purpose was to help out some HSM buddies when they have a mother-f-----! moment.:D

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 09:55 PM
I'm not familiar with the machine Darin, but that's just a simple EDM sinker, right? You can get Hangsterfer's Crystal Brite EDM fluid from MSC for pretty cheap: $80 for a 5 gallon pail.

I was thinking about that,but it holds 40 gallons:eek:

lazlo
07-15-2009, 10:09 PM
Holy Cow! If you're really looking for a dielectric fluid, then you might try simple tapwater. Robert Langois mentions antifreeze/water in a 3:7 ratio (the antifreeze for a wetting agent) for his home-brew sinker EDM. His final article said that he was using a witch's brew of antifreeze, soluable oil, and water in a 5:5:90 ratio -- the soluable oil to keep the water from decomposing from electrolysis.

J Tiers
07-15-2009, 10:12 PM
IIRC, the various articles in HSM and other info sources have suggested such diverse materials as distilled water and kerosene.

As long as all the sparking is under the surface, there should be no problems from a liquid which is to some extent flammable, if there is a heat-sensitive drop-on cover similar to a parts washer. Don't commercial EDM units use an oil/solvent type fluid?

jimmstruk
07-15-2009, 10:13 PM
Weird, This thing holds 40 gal of coolant??? Must be a tad larger than I would have guessed. How about a picture? JIM

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 10:26 PM
IIRC, the various articles in HSM and other info sources have suggested such diverse materials as distilled water and kerosene.

As long as all the sparking is under the surface, there should be no problems from a liquid which is to some extent flammable, if there is a heat-sensitive drop-on cover similar to a parts washer. Don't commercial EDM units use an oil/solvent type fluid?

Solvents and kero are out.This machine has a 3x4' T-slot table with a radial,tilting and nodding arm to support the work head.The part sits on the table and has a ground attached,the pump supplies fluid through the center of the electrodes(thin brass tubing) and basically just flushes the burn in open air.

I'm also figuring on a exhuast fan/hood.

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Weird, This thing holds 40 gal of coolant??? Must be a tad larger than I would have guessed. How about a picture? JIM

There abouts,it has two tanks actually,one about 15 and one about 25 that might be an add on or could be factory.It may not need the extra,but then again on a long burn with something water based the losses might be high.

No pics yet,camera batts are dead.

Got one heck of a power supply,old school too.

lazlo
07-15-2009, 10:31 PM
Don't commercial EDM units use an oil/solvent type fluid?

Seems like most EDM fluids are highly refined hydrocarbons with a high flash point and extremely low viscosity. You probably don't care the low viscosity for a tap burner...

But even so, 40 gallons of mineral spirits or kerosene (other popular poor man's EDM fluids) is going to cost you an arm an a leg, and probably a big storage problem as well.


There abouts,it has two tanks actually,one about 15 and one about 25 that might be an add on or could be factory.It may not need the extra,but then again on a long burn with something water based the losses might be high.

On a sinker, you have the part submerged in the dielectric, but on a tap burner, aren't you just dribbling the fluid onto the tap? Or does this unit have a big tub that you immerse the workpiece?

J Tiers
07-15-2009, 10:37 PM
Seems like most EDM fluids are highly refined hydrocarbons with a high flash point and extremely low viscosity. You probably don't care the low viscosity for a tap burner...

But even so, 40 gallons of mineral spirits or kerosene (other popular poor man's EDM fluids) is going to cost you an arm an a leg, and probably a big storage problem as well.


Well, if it were me, I'd likely plunk some blocks in the tank to take up volume ...... and kerosene is a far cry from $16 per gallon per the special EDM fluid.

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 10:39 PM
On a sinker, you have the part submerged in the dielectric, but on a tap burner, aren't you just dribbling the fluid onto the tap? Or does this unit have a big tub that you immerse the workpiece?

This one has a 1/3hp cent. pump and the fluid supply is concentric within the ram.Fluid feeds through the center of the ram,through the electrode and then runs down onto the table which returns it to the tank ala B-port mill.

It's basically the HSM sinker/burner on steroids.

That old Excello EDM machine is closer to a modern EDM in that it had a gasketed tub that surrounded the part and works submerged.

lazlo
07-15-2009, 10:42 PM
This one has a 1/3hp cent. pump and the fluid supply is concentric within the ram.Fluid feeds through the center of the ram,through the electrode and then runs down onto the table which returns it to the tank ala B-port mill.

It's basically the HSM sinker/burner on steroids.

Not to belabor the obvious, but doesn't 40 gallons seem like overkill? You might try filling the reservoir with tap water, and seeing how long (how much fluid) it takes to burn a "typical" tap. I'd be really surprised if it takes 40 gallons of dielectric to burn through a tap! :)

wierdscience
07-15-2009, 10:48 PM
Not to belabor the obvious, but doesn't 40 gallons seem like overkill? You might try filling the reservoir with tap water, and seeing how long (how much fluid) it takes to burn a "typical" tap. I'd be really surprised if it takes 40 gallons of dielectric to burn through a tap! :)

I am open to that concept,but it's also rated at 7/8" capacity and has 14" of stroke.Could be it needs it,could be they just didn't want to refill it often.

I do plan to start with 5 gallons of whatever,but I also suspect that heat could be a factor.I know it doesn't take a whole lot to get the coolant in a B-port warmed up good.I'm thinking electric arc might be a more efficent water heater than an endmill.

Flying-Phantom
07-15-2009, 11:31 PM
We used just water (tap water) if you donít mind a pun. I donít know if the machine I used was the same as the one you have. Anyway mount the part so it is stable. Select an electrode to burn the center of the tap out so the flutes fall out when you are done. Align the burner head so it is in line with the tap and centered on the tap. Set the electrode about 1/16 of an inch above the tap. We wrapped a shop towel around the electrode to contain the spray. Start the water then the current and finally the vibration. Turn on the feed and adjust it by ear so the electrode burns smoothly. If you ground out shut the machine down, back up slightly and start the burn process again. If you lose the towel (shield) youíll make a mess and get wet in the process. Good luck and I hope this helps you.

George Bulliss
07-16-2009, 07:31 AM
The tap burners (or hole poppers) I have seen have all used water for the dielectric. Iím not sure if you need to use de-ionized water but I think it would help the burn. On the one I used, we pulled water from the wire EDM, which had a system to filter and de-ionize tap water.

As far as I know, sinker machines all use oil for the dielectric and yes, the stuff is expensive. We used a synthetic, which was much better for your skin, that ran somewhere around 6 or 7 hundred dollars per 55 gal. drum.

The 40 gal. tank on your machine is about as small as you are likely to see on an EDM. You donít want any disruptions in the flow while burning. Any disruption will slow down or stop the burn and, with oil, will create some pretty flames. As you mention, there will be considerable evaporation when using water. Also, there is a lot of heat transferred to the dielectric and the large volume of the tank may help to address this without going to the expense of adding a chiller.

George

wierdscience
07-16-2009, 07:57 AM
George and Flying,thanks for the tips,that saves me some experimentation.

I think I'm gonna try water with some soluable oil for rust prevention first and see what it does,might even spring for deionized water.

Herm Williams
07-16-2009, 11:12 AM
I use electro-arc, 16 oz to 10 gallons of water. the two tanks are used for a settling tank, then the over flow goes to the supply tank. The "electro-arc" web site has a lot of information on the theory. The only time I use water in mine is during the removal of a bolt/tap easy out from an item too large to get on the table. Eectrodes, copper or brass tubes, thick wall. I will look for my book but I don't remember seeing it for years.
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