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Bmyers
07-17-2009, 09:51 AM
Why is it when a buyer inquires about an item for sale 9 times out of 10 the seller has to state that their item is American made and not cheap import junk. Some how justifying whatever quality they are pushing as better because it was made and worn out in the USA.
I would think quality and reputation would be all a seller needs to hawk their product. Bashing the competition whatever the quality is playground mentality.
rant off.

rockrat
07-17-2009, 10:14 AM
worn out in the USA

This seems to be everywhere but with the economy I think that I'm seeing it more. Those that have money are shopping right now looking for deals. Those needing money what you to think what they have is the best and dont want to deal.

I looked at a clamping device at a yard sale the other day. It was a Henric type quick clamp. The seller had way too much money on it. So I talked to him a little and made a reasonable offer based on the fact that it was missing parts and useless as it was. He didnt take it and then lectured me about the fact it was made in the USA and was the best ever and I should feel bad for making the offer. I countered by telling him that while I didnt disagree with what he was saying, his comments were only valid when the item was new. Now, rusty and missing many parts, I felt that it was only worth my offer.

He was furious. Cant imagine why the guy had a yard sale if he cant have a conversation. But, I drove by after the sale and found the item in the trash at the curb. And yes, I grabbed it and a few more things.

I thought that I might feel bad so I considered leaving him a 5 spot in the mailbox. Then I came to my senses.

rock~

gnm109
07-17-2009, 10:23 AM
I live in a rural area where my friend operates a second-hand shop. It is a useful arrangement since he often calls me when he gets in an interesting tool.

He told me yesterday that he notices that with the failing economy, people are bringing in fewer used items to sell and when they do bring something in or if he sees something at a yard sale, prices are higher and people don't want to haggle as in the past.

I guess if you don't see a future where you can buy more "stuff" then maybe you don't want to sell the "stuff" you have so cheaply. I'm not sure what's going on.

When I go to a yard salw or a swap meet, if I can't make a deal on something, I just walk away and let the proud owner keep his "stuff".


.

goose
07-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Cheap import junk is cheap import junk, now way getting around it. Good import junk is another thing entirely. I think you end up getting what you pay for in the end, and time after time I hear indiviuals justify (new) cheap import junk with rationals like "you can expect to do a little fine tuning and replace some fasteners with good ones, otherwise it's a bargain"
Used and worn out, that I'll agree with for sure, but begs the question how do you compare a used and well worn Kurt vise with an import Kurt vise clone?


Gary

rotate
07-17-2009, 10:30 AM
Rock, I think you were dealing with a delusional and ignorant person.

As for the made in American slogan, I don't think it means anything 90% of the time. Just bought a John Deer riding lawnmower and I bought it not because it was made in the USA, but because it was the best value. More often than not, I don't trust the label "made in xxxxx". I see canned pineapple that read "product of Canada" on the label. :rolleyes:

Tinkerer
07-17-2009, 10:51 AM
Well like the old adage goes "My things are good stuff... your stuff is just crap... but your crap can become my stuff... if the price is right."

You must be looking at Vintage Crap as we.. The US have not made much of anything in the last 25 of so years. Yep I put a reasonable offer on a large item that needed a ton of work... seller/holder/keeper would not budge and came back with all you lowballers are the same lookin to get somthin' fer nothin'. I said nope just looking at it in the cold light of day and it's only worth X to me and then I have to fix it up to boot.

rockrat... He would not take your money but will pay to have it hauled away in the trash... priceless. :rolleyes:

loose nut
07-17-2009, 11:27 AM
Cheap import junk is cheap import junk, now way getting around it. Good import junk is another thing entirely. I think you end up getting what you pay for in the end, and time after time I hear indiviuals justify (new) cheap import junk with rationals like "you can expect to do a little fine tuning and replace some fasteners with good ones, otherwise it's a bargain"
Used and worn out, that I'll agree with for sure, but begs the question how do you compare a used and well worn Kurt vise with an import Kurt vise clone?


Gary


You said it yourself, is it a good quality import Kurt clone or a piece of crap. A quality import may be better then a old worn out item but crap is crap new or old.

Scishopguy
07-17-2009, 12:22 PM
Why is it when a buyer inquires about an item for sale 9 times out of 10 the seller has to state that their item is American made and not cheap import junk. Some how justifying whatever quality they are pushing as better because it was made and worn out in the USA.
I would think quality and reputation would be all a seller needs to hawk their product. Bashing the competition whatever the quality is playground mentality.
rant off.

The decline is politeness is what I have labeled as "advertisers libb." Some time about the late 80's advertisers started putting little jabs into their commercials about their competitors products being inferior. As time moved along the little subtle jabs became loud and obnoxious attacks on everything related to their competitors, including their logos, way they dressed, and their poor comb overs. It is just the way politics is now, it is not about issues any more but cheap insults and finger pointing. Even the fast food guys are "duking it out" on TV as to who should eat what. Unfortunately, society seems to have slid down the slipery slope of playground antics. :(

PTSideshow
07-17-2009, 12:26 PM
Well get over IT! And get use to it. With the cap and trade, and the free trade and everything else that is happening in the world.
Manufacturing base will never return to the US/Canada unions.

When I see flat bed semi's parked 5 in a row with newer longing robot arms outside the local scarp yard. and he is ever expanding is domain in the 1/2 mile strip of land between streets he is located on. And all the other newer/clean High tech equipment. Being chopped up in his yard.

It will never even get close, to the good old days.
:rolleyes:

PTSideshow
07-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Rude is the new polite, from the everybody has a "tude" on TV, movies,music,the internet and of course the street!
I had to remove a new member from another forum, because she couldn't understand that we didn't practice her form of communication, cussing everybody out,using text spell, calling people names and making fun of stuff.

What she couldn't understand is why nobody would answer her questions. And when I did, she told me that I was stupid because she didn't give a rat's @$$ for insurance, safety or the inspectors. For a sculpture that had flames shooting out all over it turned out it was for a Burning man type gathering. And when somebody said something about it getting rowdy at those.
She said that the forum was religious intolerant! I had not known burning man had reached the level of a religion. What it seems is the younger are more into this "Tude" thing and it seems to be getting worse the younger they get.

ckelloug
07-17-2009, 01:33 PM
Since it's a rant, I'll chime in. The rather lousy attitudes we are seeing in public aren't so much a function of age but circumstance. I know I'm one of the youngest ones here and I know I don't behave discourteously intentionally unlike some folks I have seen. The key point I see is that you can be rude to others if and only if you have either nothing invested in a relationship or only money invested in the relationship.

Since most of what we use on a daily basis is made and sold by faceless corporations, it seems a culture of rudeness is developing to maximize efficiencies in procuring life's essentials. It seems acceptable on the surface because companies have reduced their statures to multi-national vending machines without a humanistic component.

People don't stop to think that individual people have to invent the tools that those who cannot produce tools must use. The myopic ones fail to see that dealing with someone with the capacity to create tools beyond what he/she was handed is a different type of transaction than interacting with a vending machine which doesn't have feelings and might drop some free product if kicked hard enough.

I doubt that the same number of people were rude to the local blacksmith a hundred years ago because rude people with no redeeming qualities would soon lack farm implements and horseshoes.

In conclusion, I think that chronically rude people lack the work ethic to be worth helping and the sense to tell the difference between help given out of human kindness and consulting for which a fee is customarily charged.

--Cameron

beanbag
07-17-2009, 03:01 PM
I have recently started buying my own tool bits with my own money, and I find it to be a good rule of thumb to buy things that are made in USA or Europe. I still try to find good bargains, and I haven't yet gotten any duds.

Bmyers
07-17-2009, 03:52 PM
I a good rule of thumb to buy things that are made in USA or Europe.
I dont disagree, my grip is; I was looking at some used tooling from vendors who sell HSM type stuff. I was told by both that what they were selling was made in USA so it has to be better than the import junk. I happen to have compared the USA tooling to the import junk (sold by a reputable online seller) and in this case the import meets or exceeds the original hard to find stuff. And what the USA guys were selling was tooling of questionable condition.
I even had one vendor tell me to trust him because he had been an engineer in a past life. Implying those who weren't are less honest ? Good thing I am one too :rolleyes:
I think the whole thing is a cop out from the sellers

PSD KEN
07-17-2009, 10:21 PM
Old timers are always mentioning the younger generation going to hell. (I'm only 70!)

Per Cicero: "Oh Tempora, Oh mores!"
(oh these times, these customs)

wierdscience
07-17-2009, 10:39 PM
"Why is it when a buyer inquires about an item for sale 9 times out of 10 the seller has to state that their item is American made and not cheap import junk."

Same reason that 100% of the time the junk they are pedaling isn't under power.

lazlo
07-17-2009, 11:24 PM
I was looking at some used tooling from vendors who sell HSM type stuff. I was told by both that what they were selling was made in USA so it has to be better than the import junk. I happen to have compared the USA tooling to the import junk (sold by a reputable online seller) and in this case the import meets or exceeds the original hard to find stuff.

Could you tell us which tool you're talking about? I don't think I've ever seen a Chinese or Indian tool that was remotely the same quality as the American, British/European, or Japanese tool it was copied from. The Kurt and Sheffield vise clones are perfect examples.

A.K. Boomer
07-17-2009, 11:36 PM
But, I drove by after the sale and found the item in the trash at the curb. And yes, I grabbed it and a few more things.

I thought that I might feel bad so I considered leaving him a 5 spot in the mailbox. Then I came to my senses.

rock~


That's one of the best success story's iv heard in a long time, Yes I would have left him something - but only if it wasnt too far of a trip to the house and back to pick up one of my L'il girls presents that they squeek out in the yard every few days, kinda like a diamond, basically carbon under lots of pressure and heat for awhile -- they never really shine though - and Maggie's a little irregular so you can't always count on em being uniform and all.

J Tiers
07-18-2009, 01:00 AM
The decline is politeness is what I have labeled as "advertisers libb." Some time about the late 80's advertisers started putting little jabs into their commercials about their competitors products being inferior. As time moved along the little subtle jabs became loud and obnoxious attacks on everything related to their competitors, including their logos, way they dressed, and their poor comb overs. It is just the way politics is now, it is not about issues any more but cheap insults and finger pointing. Even the fast food guys are "duking it out" on TV as to who should eat what. Unfortunately, society seems to have slid down the slipery slope of playground antics. :(

Ah, fugettaboutit...... it was worse years ago.... anything went, and complete lies were told routinely. Back from 1850 (or before) thru maybe 1930's.....

Advertising has been the domain of the 'almost lie" or worse, for so long that it is essentially the 2nd oldest profession. And that only because it needed the oldest one in order to have material to work with.

Scishopguy
07-18-2009, 02:21 PM
I never thought of it that way before but thinking back to my first car, bought from a dealer, it was lies and more lies to make the sale. :D



Ah, fugettaboutit...... it was worse years ago.... anything went, and complete lies were told routinely. Back from 1850 (or before) thru maybe 1930's.....

Advertising has been the domain of the 'almost lie" or worse, for so long that it is essentially the 2nd oldest profession. And that only because it needed the oldest one in order to have material to work with.

andy_b
07-18-2009, 03:33 PM
Just bought a John Deer riding lawnmower and I bought it not because it was made in the USA, but because it was the best value.

you got it cheap because it was a John Deer, not a John Deere. i bet it was yellow and green and not green and yellow. :)

andy b.
(couldn't resist, i have a lot of Deere stuff in the barn)

38_Cal
07-18-2009, 06:50 PM
Lies, more lies and salesmanship...that was my Navy Recruiter back in '68! <VBG> Ah, well...

David
Montezuma, IA

kendall
07-18-2009, 09:04 PM
He was furious. Cant imagine why the guy had a yard sale if he cant have a conversation. But, I drove by after the sale and found the item in the trash at the curb. And yes, I grabbed it and a few more things.

I thought that I might feel bad so I considered leaving him a 5 spot in the mailbox. Then I came to my senses.

rock~

Been there a few times, make an offer, have it turned down, (sometimes rudely) then see it on the curb later. Never could understand the logic, Coming down is bad, but throwing it out is OK???

A guy up north had an old ford I was interested in for parts, it hadn't moved in 5 years or more, Talked to him a few times, and offered him $300 at the max, But everytime I talked to him he HAD to have $700 or more, way more than I was willing to pay.
A few months later my buddy, who owns a junkyard and knows I'm always interested in 60s and 70s fords, calls and said he had to go pick up a car like I wanted, and if I wanted it all he needed was what he gave for it, so I rode along.
Same house, same car, Steve got it for $45.

Ken.

J Tiers
07-19-2009, 09:07 AM
I would think quality and reputation would be all a seller needs to hawk their product. Bashing the competition whatever the quality is playground mentality.
rant off.

I agree with the main point, but this is bullcrap.

It has to be fair and possible to do a comparison..... If a seller can't do a straight one-to-one comparison of his stuff to a competitor's without being told he is a "playground bully" for 'bashing the competition", then there is a real problem.

" Why should I buy yours and not brand "X"?"

" if you compare them, you will see that ours has features a,b,c,d,e,and f. Brand "X" has only a partial version of feature "b", and totally lacks the others. Here is why those things are important........"

Under your theory, the conversation would basically be:


" Why should I buy yours and not brand "X"?"

"uh, I'm not allowed to discuss that".

kendall
07-19-2009, 10:30 AM
I believe the bashing statement was in regards to actual bashing, not a feature comparison as in your example.

A feature comparison is a good thing to do, and a good salesman should be aware of the competitions features.

Ken.

J Tiers
07-19-2009, 12:15 PM
I believe the bashing statement was in regards to actual bashing, not a feature comparison as in your example.

A feature comparison is a good thing to do, and a good salesman should be aware of the competitions features.

Ken.

Obviously it's good......

But the definition becomes very blurred....... ANY statement that tends to lower the value of the competitor or his product in the eye of the customer is often considered "negative advertising" or "bashing".

Obviously saying the competitor's product lacks certain features lowers it's value in the customer's eyes, at least if they need those features.

And it hurts the feelings of the competitor, another strike against you among the "PC" crowd........

Just look at US political ads.

ANY actual comparison, will normally be viewed as 'going negative"...... and, predictably, will be "bashed" in turn.

texas_po_boy
07-19-2009, 12:36 PM
Yes it seems that every yard sale here lately the owners are kinda rude and there price is written in stone. Either there price or curb side trash later. And USA tools are priceless.

J Tiers
07-19-2009, 01:57 PM
I have seen a small amount of that.

But it is generally the clueless doing it. Them and the guys who know what they paid 30 years ago, and want half of that minimum, because "it's still perfectly good, like-new condition".

The clueless usually have substantial price tags on unidentifiable lumps of steel as well as tools etc, because "grandpa told us all this stuff was worth real money".....

it isn't all like that, I get 'good deals" also.

Now, a "good deal" to me is not necessarily what you think. Some would say a good deal is when you are able to pay far less than retail for the item, and so you save money.

I say a "good deal" is when you are able to pay far less than retail for the item, and so you get an item which you would never pay full pop for anyway, and so wouldn't otherwise get. I could afford to buy a nice shiny new lathe, etc, but I prefer to get older iron and fix it up. For some reason, that makes it worth more to me.

I guess I have somewhat of a "work for what you have" mentality. I wouldn't feel the same about a new item, unless I have a specific need. I HAVE bought some items new, for which I had a need, and I'm fine with that.

But for what is, objectively, a "frill item" of sorts, I just don't like buying new. And I DO like refurbishing, it to me is part of the hobby, and is intermixed with other unrelated repairs, and making new parts for old engines, etc, all together as part of the overall list of hobbies I have, now up to about 10 total, a number of which suffer from some neglect.

Alistair Hosie
07-19-2009, 02:57 PM
After being in the USA many times and having a US navy base here in Dunoon for around thirty years were i made many American friends .I can honestly say I am always impressed with the high quality of American goods the reason you guys have such fine stuff made for you is because you don't take the kind of crap we take lying down.End of story.Not so long ago we were correctly known as rip of Britain as we were charged way over the odds for imported stuff some good some bad but for example Levi jeans we paid here commonly over two hundred dollars a pair at one time and thirty plus percent more for our European and imported cars and home built cars then the rest of Europe. I cannot see the Americans lying down and taking that crap thankfully recently things have begun to change for the better as new laws came in the sellers had an odd phrase saying we charge in the UK what the market will allow in other words so long as there were no laws against it the charged us for it.One large supermarket bought Levi jeans from USA direct and sold them to us at a fair price but they had to stop Levi didn't like it so you guys have it better than us try buying you gasoline here and you'll see.end of rant:D:D Alistair

airsmith282
07-19-2009, 04:50 PM
Cheap import junk is cheap import junk, now way getting around it. Good import junk is another thing entirely. I think you end up getting what you pay for in the end, and time after time I hear indiviuals justify (new) cheap import junk with rationals like "you can expect to do a little fine tuning and replace some fasteners with good ones, otherwise it's a bargain"
Used and worn out, that I'll agree with for sure, but begs the question how do you compare a used and well worn Kurt vise with an import Kurt vise clone?


Gary

Cheap import junk is cheap import junk, so bash the chinese but not the American or canadain or swiss and so on ,, pretty bias there ya think..

look every company has there good stuff and there junk , in most cases you do get what you pay for.. the untold story is you would really be surprised how much of that USA and other country stuff is auctually made in china and tiawain and such places and then staped with made in USA on it..but no instead people bash stuff they know nothing about,, and why dont they know anything could it be ignorece or lack of education or even the lack of many other things..

you take most older guys they all set in there ways on how to do things and are not open to new ideas or opnions. well same goes for pretty much anything..
someone once told me you cant do it. it cant be done, what a shock when i did it,,

i dont care where something is made or by who..if it works and does the job as needed who the hell cares,, but you go and be a cheapo then expect you have to put things right on the machine before you use it and stop complaining..

oh this has no cover to protect the lead screw lets mod it ok so mod it who cares, i didnt mod mine and never once a problem, do i care if it looks better no i care that the thing works and makes the parts i need it to the way i need it to. so what if i cant take 1/8 of an inch per pass.. its dangerous anyhow on HSM,, i also want something thats persision and at the same time keep the metal as cool as possible with out using flood coolent all the time..

if you got USA made lathe 10x18 for exapmple then put itup to a chinese busy bee 10x18 they both maybe the ****s or they both maybe the best or the chinese one might blow the doors off the USA one or the USA one might be better , just cause its Made in the USA dont make it better or made in swiss or made in germany ,.. they all make good stuff and crap stuff get use to it already..

sorry had to rant but iam getting a bit tired my self as iam sure many others hearing people bash chinese stuff and thinking the USA stuff is the best when thats nothing but BS..

and just cause something cost more then another dont make it better either..

Mcgyver
07-19-2009, 05:50 PM
I looked at a clamping device at a yard sale the other day. It was a Henric type quick clamp. The seller had way too much money on it. So I talked to him a little and made a reasonable offer based on the fact that it was missing parts and useless as it was. He didnt take it and then lectured me about the fact it was made in the USA and was the best ever and I should feel bad for making the offer. I countered by telling him that while I didnt disagree with what he was saying, his comments were only valid when the item was new. Now, rusty and missing many parts, I felt that it was only worth my offer.
~


at least you got it!.

There's an estate sale DSG lathe near me where the son hired this yoyo to sell it via ebay/kijiji etc. Its been sitting in a trailer not running (with a newer lathe in the shop, so no idea what was wrong with it causing it to be replaced), looks beat up, idgit used grease instead oil all over so gawd knows how messed it.....anyway, I'm formally offer him 2500 and provide comparables and a copy of the manual that he asked me for. So OK, he's a right to his ignorant opinion of value, but the prick agent didn't even call me back on my offer, or thank me for the manual...oh yeah, he's asking 6+k ! :eek: :mad: probably 1800 would have been more realistic

anyway, I have to find a way to be happy despite all the morons one encounters.....perhaps knowing there are so many out means that it cant that hard for the rest of us to get a head? :)