PDA

View Full Version : My new tool gloat.. TC Grinder



.RC.
07-20-2009, 09:43 PM
Got myself a Macson #2 TC grinder...I have been looking for awhile and was considering a new TC grinder for ~$5000 when this came up on ebay for a lot lot less..

I am quite happy with my purchase...Sure it has done a bit of work but for my use it should be quite good... While a Cincinnati #2 manual came with the machine a couple of days ago I picked up one of these http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360164209191 on ebay as well...my tool grinding skills are limited so these instructions should help..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macsongrinder002.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macsongrinder003.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macsongrinder004.jpg

doctor demo
07-20-2009, 09:51 PM
Nice, kinda resembles a Cinci
And wrinkle finish paint to boot.

Steve

rockrat
07-20-2009, 10:03 PM
And you got some attachments too. Very nice.

rock~

oldtiffie
07-21-2009, 01:27 AM
Ringer,

congratulations.

You are one very lucky bugger!!!

You have done extra-ordinarily well.

"Macson" was made in OZ by "MacPherson" in Kensington Victoria where I lived in the early '40s. I spent a lot of time "looking" both at the factory and the Show Rooms.

I later realised just how good that stuff was when I started using them at Trade School and in the shop when I was an Apprentice. I have used both that T&C grinder as well as the Cincinnati that it seems to have been modeled off and presumably made under licence.

It is not only an excellent T&C grinder but a pretty good (universal?) cylindrical and surface grinder as well.

I will be very surprised if there is not a very good grinder hidden under there. I will be surprised too if a clean-up is not good enough to get it going well. The accessories you have will make it "fly" and what you don't have or need you can make or modify something to suit.

It even got better with the CD you bought as "Mary Poppins" is John Stevenson's wife.

I have a copy of it.

I think I can find my way around a T&C grinder and I can tell you that that CD is about as good as you are going to get in one package anywhere.

You have opened your shop up to a whole new world - and I think you will enjoy it.

luthor
07-21-2009, 08:09 AM
Nice one Ringer, I have the same machine. You will probably need to make an extension for the spindle because you are very limited in reach with those stub arbors.

Mcgyver
07-21-2009, 08:30 AM
looks very well accessorized, now all you need is an air bearing! :D

more guys should add T&C grinders to their shops. I found one of the biggest pains as a hsm was the cost of cutters. you'd either did without or use one well past its prime which is tough on the machines and workmanship....nice addition Ringer

John Stevenson
07-21-2009, 09:01 AM
One thing a tool and cutter grinder is good for is taking time up making 1,000's of attachments for grinding cutters :rolleyes:

Everyone says when buying a lathe or mill allow as much again for tooling.

With a tool and cutter grinder allow 8 times more time than was expended buying, collecting and installing it.

Then when you do a job take a photo and label and store it because next time you do the same job you can't remember how and non of the attachments seem to apply and you have to make another design even though the first method, if you can remember what it was, worked. :D

.

Ken_Shea
07-21-2009, 09:10 AM
With the exception of the paint it looks to be in great shape.
Like a decent surface grinder, I would also like to have a TC grinder but decent shaped ones are difficult to find at a price that makes it easy to just spend the money.
Would love to see one being set up and used.

Good find.

PS, sure hope it did not have to come down the stairs in the back ground !

Ken

oldtiffie
07-21-2009, 09:47 AM
Nice one Ringer, I have the same machine. You will probably need to make an extension for the spindle because you are very limited in reach with those stub arbors.

You are quite right Luthor.

There is/was an extention spindle/s for the standard 1 1/4" (31.75mm) bore of the grinding wheels used in the Tool Room.

The extension has to be very well made and a very good fit onto the spindle end. Don't make it any longer than you really need. Balance is everything. A wheel-guard is bolted to the "T-slot" in the head of the riser (just above the spindle). It is important that it be used as a safety device and to keep the grindings local to the grinder and not floating all over the shop.


looks very well accessorized, now all you need is an air bearing!

more guys should add T&C grinders to their shops. I found one of the biggest pains as a hsm was the cost of cutters. you'd either did without or use one well past its prime which is tough on the machines and workmanship....nice addition Ringer

Mcgyver, while what you say is the ideal its not essential - and I supect that you have a good long memory, particularly that thread about "air-bearings" and that you are $hit-stirring again <grin>. Let's not go back there again!!!

But seriously, the "sensitive head/s" that Ringer has will do the job as once you have the co-ordination right those grinder tables move so well that an air-spindle in not required. I can make my "Spindexer" do nearly as well as my real air-spindle.

I take your point about sharp cutters as I see a lot lot of milling here but very little sharpening of cutters and any that is done is only on the ends and not on the (spiral) flutes. So either no one blunts a cutter or has an endless supply of new ones or are using blunt and buggered-up cutters.

I don't even consider sharpening the flutes of an end-milling cutter under 1/2" - or 3/8" at a pinch.

If Ringer has a horizontal mill, that T&C grinder is going to be like the answer to a maiden's prayer for him!!!

Its not always the finish on grinders that is so important, but that hard (very hard) materials that can be machined on a grinder but not on a lathe or a mill suddenly become very "do-able".

I will be very interested to see how well Ringer's grinder performs on the first cuts he does.

One of the very big things I like about a T&C grinder is that with a good work-head you can (re?) sharpen any indexable TC insert so that it is near perfectly concentric with the tool-holder taper that mates with the milling machine taper. I hear a lot about those inserts - which are fine - but every-one seems to assume that they are indexed accurately to the adaptor taper - they probably are not. And a T&C grinder will easily re-sharpen them.

Further - with this tool-holder of yours - with the vise fitted to the top of it - you can grind any lathe cutting tool very precisely and very easily, although Ringer has the most of it:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/mockofunivestalswivel1.jpg

The grinding head of that grinder of Ringer's is an awkward arrangment for cylindrical grinding (external) and not much use for internal grinding.

Here's my solution for my universal grinder (run-out is 0.01mm ~ 0.0004") which I bought for internal grinding but will make a very good external/tool-post grinder for the mill or lathe - and is the best "small-space" die-grinder I've seen - excellent German quality and tons of speed and "grunt". There will be other options about and given that Ringer is a dab hand at "finding stuff" I'm sure he will do it:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_grinder1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_Grinder14.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_Grinder7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Med_Speed_Spindles/Bosch_HS_Grinder6.jpg

lazlo
07-21-2009, 10:26 AM
Great score! Are the spindle bearings in good shape? On a T&C Grinder you can usually tell by turning the spindle by hand and seeing how smooth it is.

You really scored on the accessories -- you have what looks like a Cincinnati No. 1 workhead, and the motor, drawbar and pulley to motorize it. Two sets of cylindrical grinding centers, a 3-axis lathe tool sharpening fixture, an internal grinding attachment, and what looks like an upside-down radial grinding fixture without it's base.

oldtiffie
07-21-2009, 11:17 AM
Ringer,

this is a list of the accessories for my grinders. Have a look at them and it should help you sort out the accessories that you have:
http://www.chitseng.com/product5.htm

.RC.
07-22-2009, 07:45 AM
Thanks for the kind words everyone...It is probably in not as good as order as you think....The saddle has been "rescraped" in but running a dial indicator across the table (y axis) revealed it moves 0.5mm higher from one side then the other as you move the saddle across..This can be rectified by some shimming of the hardened steel table ways (I will get a picture to clarify why I think this is possible. Perhaps Forrest could see whether it is feasible to do), but if I was to worry about it I would do a complete machine survey...Personally I do not think it will make a difference for my use for the time being... Incidentally the scraping job the previous owner did does look quite neat, but as I have learnt, scraping something flat is incredibly easy...Scraping something and keeping it in alignment with another plane is very hard...

The accessories I got are the work head with electric motor drive...Universal vice.. A form relieved cutter sharpening tool...Internal grinding attachment...Two sets of centres...Wheel dresser holder..Spindle extensions and a number of other arbours...Wheel guards..A 5 to 4 MT reducer sleeve for the workhead...A couple of tooth rests and some other odds and ends..

I got it powered up this evening and it runs well...Just wondering, is there any way to lock the spindle so I can tighten up the grinding wheel and also unscrew the short spindle extension to install a longer one??

I still think I got a reasonable deal @ $1200 + freight...Freight did add to the price BUT freight is something I have to pay regardless of what I buy because of where I live machines like this are quite rare to come across, in fact here is the only locally available TC grinder for sale that I know of...@ $9900.. http://www.engineering-tools.com.au/category1177_1.htm It is a nice one though...

oldtiffie
07-22-2009, 08:04 AM
Ringer.

I suspect that if you grind the face of a magnetic chuck on the grinder it will improve things quite a bit as it will be referenced to your "X" and "Y" ways.

You can simulate that by putting anything steel on the table and taking cuts on it and then re-indicating it. It should improve it quite a bit.

As the "Macson" is probably a "Cincinnati" built under licence a Cinci manual may give you the answer.

I don't recall what the method was to remove/install the spindle extension but it must have been pretty simple as I might have remembered it if it weren't.

If the spindle is not reversible it may be that the opposite ends of the spindle have left and right hand threads - as on a pedestal grinder.

I say that because my surface grinder is not reversible and has a left-hand thread to mount the wheel arbor, where-as my surface and universal grinders are reversible and are not screwed on. The surface grinder has a flange and screw mounting and the universal has a taper and screw.

I will try and find "Mary Poppins" CD tomorrow and see if it includes "Cincinnati" - I would hope that it will.

Have you had a look inside the head that the spindle is mounted in for a clue?

Can you post some pics of the spindle head and spindle?

.RC.
07-22-2009, 08:35 AM
I understand what you mean tiffie..it would not matter if the table was on a 45 degree angle, if the machine can grind it in reference to itself it makes it flat, provided the ways are flat.. This is what makes grinders so accurate, the ability to grind their own table..

I will get some pictures tomorrow....I have to do the BAS for the tax man tomorrow so will welcome some relief half way through doing it..

.RC.
07-22-2009, 07:24 PM
Some more pictures...I hope they are not too big for dial up users

In the base

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder002.jpg

The wheel head

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder004.jpg

The V-way...There is no detectable wear groove here

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder005.jpg

.RC.
07-22-2009, 07:27 PM
Spindle extensions

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder007.jpg


Internal grinding attachment

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder008.jpg

Not sure what this is (no not the vice but the thing in the vice)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder009.jpg

I believe this is a form cutter grinding attachment (for gear cutters and the like)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder011.jpg

.RC.
07-22-2009, 07:29 PM
The hardened steel ways that the steel balls run on..These show no groove either..The table is exceptionally easy to move for something that weighs 150lb's

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder014.jpg

general view with the bellow seal removed and the head on the highest setting

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder015.jpg

nother general view

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/OzRinger/macson%20TC%20grinder/macsongrinder012.jpg