Underfloor Safes

[boslab]

Would anyone have any information on building a safe, underfloor preferably, in particular haw to make a lid/lock and watersealing. thanks
regards
mark

[oldtiffie]

Don't forget to make it as fire-resistant as you can. If the (presumed) house is burned down - particularly if it is built into a suspended timber floor or a timber wall - having dried ash is not a help at all.

We keep all our papers and other small stuff in a sealed envelope in our bank which stores it in the bank vault at a quite reasonable rent/fee. If we wanted anything larger, we'd hire a safe-deposit box in the bank vault.

A fairly good fire-resistant and very strong "safe" security box can be bought at many good hard-ware stores at quite reasonable prices.

All the safe storage - fire-arm/ammunition safes included - are not worth much if an intruder bails you up. Having the contents "off-site" is a much better security option.

[PTSideshow]

It would only be an exercise in frustration, of losing what ever is in it after a fire/flood etc. The locking device would be a pia, unless you were going to use padlocks and hasps.
I'm all for building your self, but this is one time a used with the correct fire rating,water rating.
Nothing you could build would equal even a cheap safe.
unless you are looking for a very intensive,high learning curve project.

There is a reason most locksmiths, don't do safes. They require constant study and work to keep up with all the different types.

The lids, are drop in step types, with the throw bars to lock. Or a type of screw in with throw type locking bars.
They turn up on Craig's list, and then take the lid in to change the combo.:D

[tyrone shewlaces]

It would only be an exercise in frustration...

...Nothing you could build would equal even a cheap safe...

...and then take the lid in to change the combo.:D

I don't mean to offend or insult, so please don't take it that way. But I wouldn't agree with these points, though there are always conditions.

Seems like most folks here, including me, are into the DIY thing and will often make something rather than buying it even if from a practical or financial perspective it doesn't "make sense" to do so. It's worth exploring anyways I think if nothing more than a seat-of-the-pants engineering exercise.

First, you need to determine the parameters. Some safes that you buy aren't all that fire resistant anyways but they still call them a safe. Other safes are inches thick and yet they still are rated to take up to a certain temperature before the contents begin to get damaged. What temps do you want it to take? Most house fires are extinguished before they are completely engulfed, so may still experience expensive damage but not rise above a temperature that will damage things inside even a simple steel box, especially if it's away from the actual fire. Then there are other fires that do toast everything (I've seen cinder that looked like it melted from the high temperature in a fire). Weigh the chances of that kind of severe fire against the preciousness of the contents and decide if you still like the convenience of an in-home safe.

Still a go? Then the fun begins.
Personally, I like to keep things simple, so if it were me I'd make a hollow-walled simple "box-within-a-box" design with a hinged door (also hollow) and heat resistant insulation inside the voids. I'd build it so the lid simply laps over the opening kind of like those steel cellar doors you can buy to keep dirt and water out of the thing. Of course if the floor around it burns out, then that changes the water shedding ability, so weigh that in too. You could seal the door with that high-temp rope they use to seal stove and fireplace doors, etc.

You could fill the walls with some kind of fire-resistant material which would help a lot if a fire did happen. Still not absolutely safe against a fire, but neither are most of the small safes for sale either. Fill it with some asbestos peeled from an old house! Just kidding. For some fire resistance, you could use:
Ceramic fiber - brand names include kaowool and durablanket.
"Rock wool" used for fireplace inserts and door seals.
Depending on what chisels & saws you have handy, firebrick will work. The insulating firebrick is much easier to work to shape - like hard styrofoam.
You can get tubs of fireplace morter-thin with water to make a paste and plaster it into voids.
Making something like this would be decent. Probably as good as a cheap safe anyways.

As for the lock, I feel that a simple latch kind of lock would be fine for a small floor safe. You are mostly just keeping honest people honest, and even if you had a break-in, a thief will usually just grab what isn't nailed down because 1) they are in a hurry and 2) time spent messing with a safe that could contain nothing but air and family pictures is a waste. So don't use a simple file cabinet lock (those can be easily picked in less than 30 seconds usually), but if you got a better full-size key or barrel lock, you'll foil a thief unless they have unrushed access to your house.

As for "changing the combo" on an old, used safe, that depends. If the door is shut, you're probably screwed. If you bought a safe that has an open door, you're probably absolutely in good shape. As long as you can get to the inside, it's usually a very simple matter of removing a few screws and a cover or two to access the tumbler mechanism. Once inside there, a little poking around and studying will reveal the magic. And it's pretty easy to figure out how it works, determine the combination, and change it if you think that's necessary. I'd say it's even fun. You can test locking and unlocking the door without closing it, so DO NOT close it unless and until you're certain you have it figured out.

Of course if your contents are very precious, then it is tough to beat a bank vault, which takes less than a half hour to access (probably including the drive) and usually pretty darn cheap. The main rationalization for a home safe is heavy on easy access and less on safety & security.

[fishfrnzy]

I think its doable. Depending on your size, if you go with round pipe you can get up to 12" I belive threaded pipe nipples and caps to do the waterproof part.
Fireproofing can be outside te secure part with refacrory insulation or refactory type grout. For the lock mechananism, HF sells cap digital safes that you can canabalize the guts from. Recess the door inside the threaded pipe. I would stay away from gaskets except maybe the single use metal crushing types te use for high pressure pipe fittings.

[PTSideshow]

Here is some information for you to use or think about.

Paper: 218°-246°C (424-474°F) Ignition Temperature of Paper

Class 350

The safe sustains an internal atmosphere of less than 350 °F (177 °C) and 85% humidity. This is the most basic of U.L. tests and specifically tests for the storage of paper. The ignition point of paper is 450 °F (232 °C), so this safe is sufficient for storage of paper. Cases can be purchased that will meet Class 125, if they are placed inside a Class 350 safe. These class ratings are used in conjunction with hour ratings such as: ½, 1, 2, 3, or 4.

Since you didn't state what you want to keep in it. The above is the minimum, the class 125 boxes are for computer media storage. They are tested with non paper media but some claim they will hold paper well enough! I wouldn't bet the deed to the farm :)

Models are typically available between half-hour and four-hour durations. The longer they can with stand direct exposure to the fire, the more they cost.

An in-floor safe installed in a concrete floor is very resistant to fire. However, not all floor safes are watertight and will often fill with water from fire hoses, therefore everything stored inside should be placed in either double zip lock bags, dry bags, or sealed plastic containers.

All rated safes in the US are UL tested.


I feel that a simple latch kind of lock would be fine for a small floor safe.
Problem most lock parts in these locks are not made for fires,being on the thin and skimpy side will melt into a blob.


If the door is shut, you're probably screwed.
Why would anybody buy a closed safe or even one where the seller can't open it with the combination. I don't know any safe guy's that would buy one."Unless they were dirt cheap or to play with it"


it's usually a very simple matter of removing a few screws and a cover or two to access the tumbler mechanism

Unless you need a change or pass key to change the combo. And
Poking around can set off the auto lockers( tamper or picking deterrent built into the better locks.)Which if the door is closed you can no longer open it.

UL-768 certifies the combination lock against tampering. UL-140 certifies a re-locking mechanism that will permanently lock the safe bolts, in case an electronic lock fails or a UL-768 rated lock is compromised.
Which requires specialized knowledge to open.


You can get tubs of fireplace morter-thin with water to make a paste and plaster it into voids.
Making something like this would be decent. Probably as good as a cheap safe anyways.
Problem is unless you bake the material to dry it out completely like in a furnace,forge or crucible. You can develop steam pockets at a later time when it is exposed to fire/heat.

My opinion is that shop time can be better used with less expense, than reinventing the wheel with no improvements. At twice the cost:D

Life long lock enthusiast, 34 years small format interchangeable core locks, bonded master locksmith, but not a safeman

[boslab]

thank you all,
Ididnt intend to a lot in it, some cash, bank cards and the like, anything really valuable lives in the bank, my house is an old 1930 10" thick brick affair and the floors are 1' thick concrete so a TBM will be required to drop it into the floor, i still think i'll have a go as i have a heap of 8" pipe and some 8" round bar as well as some hardox400 plate offcuts [curtesy digger bucket repair], cannibalism sounds like fun [frowned upon pp willy wonka], i can get some refractory bits and bobs from the bin in work, to be honest sounds about my level [ eysight not good enough to split thous anymore ].
once again, thanks, any other suggestions welcome
mark

[johnnyd]

Safe's installed in a poured concrete slab are prone to moisture problems.
The afore mentioned advise about using plastic bags is good info...but to go 1 step further,I would also advise the use of a good dessicant. Both inside the bag/container & inside the vault area as well.
In Florida & other areas where it is common to pour a "slab on grade", the local moisture can cause the locking mechanisms to rust/corrode & requiring the services of a locksmith to drill out & replace the mechanisms.:(

[Alistair Hosie]

The most clever safe arrangement for home use I saw was, a guy welded an under floor safe to a water filled radiator system was all the radiators had water in then this one was dry and he had dummy pipes plastic water pipes going through the floor you just thought it was part of the heating system the radiator was on a hinge so it could be pulled out to use when finished it was shoved back against the wall and the pipes were once again shoved through two holes in the floor no one would ever have suspected there was a safe there in the first place .I also bought an old hospital building from a friend of mine who was a jeweler he had a french Swiss safe door seven foot tall by three and a half foot wide by about two and a half foot deep with walls inside which were three foot reinforced concrete . He paid over eighty thousand pounds the door alone and that was over twenty years ago I converted and used the building as a supermarket. Alistair

[Swarf&Sparks]

If you're after a safe for valuables, just a suggestion:

buy a cheap one and put it where it's not too hard to find.
Put a few documents and some cheap "valuables" in it.

Buy, build or modify a "real" safe. Hide it well and tell NO-ONE about it.

[claudev]

I know little about actual safe (noun used in the context of this topic) construction but I have considerable experience with insulated industrial process equipment.

It is my understanding that aircraft black boxes are protected against heat by using water saturated insulation (probably silica gel or something similar). The water has to boil off completely before the temperature inside of the box can exceed approximately 212F/100C. Perhaps this principle could also be used with a homemade safe to make it fire resistant.

I can envision a double walled unit with water (or other volatile agent) saturated insulation between the walls. Of course this necessitates pressure vented and corrosion resistant construction. None of this should constitute a major problem for a machinist, home shop type or professional.

[Boucher]

A welded steel pipe unit installed in a concrete floor underneath carpet and pad in a closet is hard to find. Good gunsafes address a lot of the issues raised here. Old safes from businesses closing are pretty cheap. It is hard to cover all the bases from easy access for the wifes jewlery to fire protection if you are in an area with slow response time. After a friend bought a new gun safe he realized he had a cutting torch setting in the garage. He started locking the cutting head in the safe when he left. To me the agrivation of protecting property is mostly not worth the effort. My house was burgalarized and several guns stolen from the den. There were several target rifles setting in the range house with the door open. They never bothered to go look inside. Threads such as this are probably what inhibits people from posting their location. I have quite a bit of large steel pipe avaliable if you want to build your own.

[Alistair Hosie]

As a gesture of good will . I would be willing albeit reluctantly although I feel it is my Christian duty to at least offer, to watch over (only long term) any valuables especially cash for those here who have worries about it getting stolen.Large cash sums can be collected at any Scottish airport by yours truly and I will then contact the senders over the next fifty years or so to return it. Minus any of course largish out of pocket expenses I may deem necessary.What a decent guy I am eh Sir John.Alistair:D beat that for kindness to my fellow man Oh dear I feel a wee tear coming on.OHHHH lohd it's haaaaard to be huuuuuumbeeeeeeeel when you get better lookin each daaaaaaay

[oldtiffie]

I realise that the title of the thread is "Underfloor Safes", but any substantial safe is a good deal deeper than the thickness of the average concrete slab floor in most houses. That being so, the safe will project through and past the under-side of the slab into a potentially wet or damp base or foundation. So keeping the safe dry or well water-proofed will be a requirement.

So far the intruder has been regarded as a "quick in-and-out" merchant. Maybe not. If he stands his ground, is armed and bails you and/or your family up and demands the keys and/or combination - or better yet for you to open them for him - you have a real problem.

Do you realise how fire-resistant and how hard to burn past the "char" stage closely-packed thick paper etc. in a filing cabinet is? Have you ever tried to burn a stack of closely-squeezed phone-books or business ledgers or files? If not, you may be quite surprised as to how difficult it is and how little damage there is other than at the edges.

Can you really be sure that your kids - particularly if "little" - won't get caught up in a typical "bragging rights" match? And how do or can you control that?

I can see the need and use for "in-house" safe-keeping, but I can see some of the risks that are attached.

If a safe has a lock - where is the spare? And who else knows where it is?

If it is a combination safe, do you know a Locksmith who can open it?

If it cannot be opened, will the contents stands the heat or force if it needs to be opened the "hard" way?

If you are incapacitated, who else can open it? And if no-one knows where the key is or what the combination is - how do you tell them?

What if someone else does get to the safe but fails to open it but renders the safe unopenable in the process? What if the damage done to the house is considerably more than the contents of the safe?

Why does the safe have to be in the house?

[madman]

Dont try to reinvent rethink it. Go out in youre Yard somewhere sort of secluded. Dig a Hole at 4 in the Morning . Put youre valuables in a bunch a plastic zip lock bags ect if guns pvxc pipe sealed and fill with motor oil. wrap stock seperate in a couple large bags tape shut. Cover with dirt. there you are fireproof and only you know where its at.

[Alistair Hosie]

In the uk people who dig holes and bury things in the wee hours are usually serial killers burying the evidence,see Fred west he did alot of 4 am gardening :DAlistair

[oldtiffie]

The "wee hours" may be more to do with cold weather and incontinence with "dribble dicks".

[JRouche]

Would anyone have any information on building a safe, underfloor preferably, in particular haw to make a lid/lock and watersealing. thanks
regards
mark

Outstanding!! I also was thinking about doing an in ground safe. I have a concrete floored house covered with carpet. So I envisioned a pipe, heck, it could even be ABS or PVC. Say 8 or 9 inches in diameter with a bottom. Maybe 3 or 5 feet deep. Make a round plate for the bottom connected to a rod to pull up the stash if its really deep. But 3 feet was what I was thinking of.

And making a top plate out of some 2" thick steel to mount the door to. Recessing the plate below the slab and pouring concrete over that with just the round section for the lift out door to clear.

And if fire issues were a concern I could have the plate even lower, so I could fit a light but insulating piece of ceramic oven liner over the entire deal, door and all. And top it off with a nice hinged flat door so the carpet going back over it would sit flush. Or if it was in a part of my house where I have some 20" tiles I could zip one out and fab up a deal so one was on a hinge for easier access, instead of flipping up the carpet.

Really, the ideas are endless. As for fire issues, the top section is all you need to worry about if its a bellow ground safe.

What stalled me?? The costs of the round doors. They arent cheap. even used. So I kinda scrapped that insurance policy. Just like many insurance policies. They get put on the back burner till its too late.

And I already have a few safes. Gun n rifle safe. Small paper fire safe and an old 1900 money safe that I bought to recondition cause it is cool.

But as far as safes go they all have intended purposes. My gun safe works off of shear bulk. But its not good in a fire. My fire safe is good in a fire, but a big guy can walk off with it. So that one is hidden as well as I can. I should put it in the gun safe. But all the eggs in one basket theory stops me there.

I love safes. All good safes should not be seen though. Even my big safe is hidden from view, not displayed out in the open like it seems they want you to do with all the nice paint work.

And I also like making my own stuff. So I like the idea of you wanting to make your own. Good for you. You arent the only one K. :) Im still looking for an affordable door :) JR

[J Tiers]

You guys are making this fire safe thing way too complicated..... go ahead and build the safe. No matter what you bui;ld it with it is child's play to make it fireproof.

You should realise a couple facts....

A good safe usually isn't very fire resistant. And they are expensive.

A fire safe usually only would stop the Bro-in-law, any self respecting "pete man" would have it open in less than no time.

So think outside the box... or in this case, INSIDE the box......

Put the fire safe INSIDE the safe you build........ by doing that, with some air space, you likely are increasing the fire rating, since it can only be heated indirectly, not by actual impingement of flame....

I leave it to your ingenuity to figure out suitable locking etc...... and after the outer safe is opened, there is still the fire safe, which we presume you will make it hard to pull out, so it is much more secure than it would be by itself.

[boslab]

i think i'm going to have to give all my money, lathes, milliers, attractive sheep, ugly concubines and some Welsh wiskey/Plaid [cumru]/bagpipes to Alistair, will airlift all the money first to make the wiskey more attractive, he will look after it [the inks still wet]
mark

[Swarf&Sparks]

Hmm, secure lid, ok.
Start with 316SS collar. There are even some here who whinge about machining it.

Collect yourself some old ball bearings (just the balls, or break up the races as well).
Organize your lock (S&G lever lock, frinstance).
Fill lid with concrete using bearing balls as aggregate.

No fancy relockers, but damn near drillproof.
Will keep out freelance socialists, and if the pros want to get in, they will.

edit to add
http://www.sargentandgreenleaf.com/

They still do some high class lever locks, I believe.
Usual disclaimer applies.

[ehughes]

Hello, Built a safe in the floor of basement of a house many years ago. About 2' dia x 4' tall steel shell with lazy susan for guns. Fabbed up a ring out of dom tube for the drop in safe door which i think was made by Sargent & added an o-ring to the combination dial stem to waterproof it and also one that the safe door sat on. The whole thing was encased in concrete. It was a lot of work & i about dropped the thing taking in down the basement steps. Somewhere have more details if interested. Regards, Earl

[wtrueman]

I have the money ready! I've got about 3 million pounds already in the safe that I just received from the Nigerian diplomat. Come over and we can transfer the monies together!!! Wayne.