which used stick welder??

[madokie]

i need to buy a stick welder, f home 220V single phase,i know the lincoln 225 ac or ac/dc, would be the best but i need to save money and the lincoln' s are not usually found around here used.the equivalant miller is a thunderbolt LX 225 ,and the hobart is a stickmate LX 235, any experience with ether one??i have heard that miller is just as good as lincoln, what about hobart??both the hobart & miller have fan in there AC models but lincoln doesnt. you have to up grade to the AC/DC lincoln to get the fan.on these 3 welders mostly have 20% duty cycle at higher amp levels 150 or so.do they have over heat sensor & shut off welder or do you have to use a watch and shut it off your self after a certain time??

[mark61]

For the home shop any of these will be alright.

To go past the duty rating takes some serious welding! That rating is for a 10 minute time span. Burn a rod then the time it takes to change a new rod give the machine time to cool off a bit. Personally I prefer the dc. Easier to weld old, dirty and not so pristine metal than with the ac.

Hobart is Miller's economy machine. Both get you the same warrenty when new. They are all good.

mark61

[andy_b]

my old Lincoln machine has a fan, and it is the plain AC version. judging by the look of the place i bought it from, i don't think the guys would have spent the cash for any upgrades. :) that doesn't help if you can't find used Lincolns in your area, but if you do find one, just turn it on and you'll know in a second if it has a fan or not.

andy b.

[scatter cat]

Any of the brand welders you listed above should be fine.I doubt just having a 20% duty cycle will matter anyway.Most hobby welding is done with1/8 or smaller rods and100amps or less. andy ball of the different welders I have ever seen have a cooling fan in them.Just after a few years the bearings get gummed up and they quit working. Some people don't know or are to lazy to take the cover off and clean them.:rolleyes: I have had to clean mine twice in the crackerbox lincoln I have its also old enough to have a copper wound transformer:D

[radkins]

Hobart is Miller's economy machine.mark61


A very common belief that has almost reached urban legend status but it is simply not true, Hobart is NO ONE'S economy machine!


This rumor about Miller owning Hobart stems from the fact that ITW is the parent company of both Hobart and Miller but they are still separate companies and are aimed at different markets. Sometimes the story is that Hobart owns Miller but of course that is not true either and to tell someone that buying a Hobart is taking second best and just another company's economy machine is just not a fair statement since Hobart quality is excellent and is second to no one. ITW owns a lot of different companies most of which do not even pertain to welding.

You mention the warranty, but when you go to the warranty site it lists the warranty as being handled by HOBART/Miller electric, not the other way around. That would be kind of odd for Miller to put the Hobart name first if they did indeed own Hobart, don't you think?

www.hobartwelders.com/pdf/warranty.pdf


Hobart/Miller electric MFG company Appleton Wis.

[Ohio Mike]

Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart are all good quality and you can't go wrong with one of their stick machines.

Both Hobart and Miller are owned by ITW and share technology and mfg facilities. Now as far as current stick machine products go the Hobart Stickmate is the exact same machine as the Miller Thunderbolt. If I recall correctly Miller had a couple larger models that Hobart didn't offer. Hobart's service it A+ which is why when I wanted a wire machine I purchased a Hobart Handler 210.

I don't stick weld but do your best to get a AC/DC machine, they're much more capable.

[MTNGUN]

I've got the Hobart AC/DC stickmate and like it.

I exceed the duty cycle for hours at a time. I've even run it turned all the way up to 160 amps DC for 5/32" 7018, again for hours at a time. Nothing bad seemed to happen.

I don't like the AC on the Hobart, though. Maybe it's not working right, but the AC mode doesn't seem to deliver the indicated amps, and its hard to keep the arc lit. And I'm not anti-AC, either, it just doesn't seem to be the Hobart's strong point.

I've used the Lincoln tombstones on jobsites, and it is my impression that it is more challenging to strike an arc on the Lincoln than on the Hobart. I definitely prefer the Hobart over the Lincoln tombstone.

In my neighborhood, the low end AC buzzboxes show up on Craig's List regularly, for not a lot of money. However, I recommend holding out for a DC machine. And if you are patient, you may run across a used Lincoln Dialarc or similar industrial quality welder for no more than what a new buzz box costs. Just make sure it will run on single phase power.

[macona]

No, Hobart is a less expensive version of Millers machine. I have worked on them. Same part numbers internally. I order the parts from Miller. Except cheaper overall construction.

There are a couple exceptions. The Miller Econotig and the Hobart Tigmate are the same crappy machine. Only difference is the paint. The stick machines are also identical.

The difference between the two companies is most apparent in the Mig machines. Tapped transformers and plastic wire feed assemblies are standard versus infinite voltage and a cast aluminum feeder on the Miller.

Heck, when you call tech support you get the same guys.

Miller is to Hobart as Chrysler was to Plymouth.

As for the OP and of the machine will be fine but be sure to get a DC machine.

-Jerry


A very common belief that has almost reached urban legend status but it is simply not true, Hobart is NO ONE'S economy machine!


This rumor about Miller owning Hobart stems from the fact that ITW is the parent company of both Hobart and Miller but they are still separate companies and are aimed at different markets. Sometimes the story is that Hobart owns Miller but of course that is not true either and to tell someone that buying a Hobart is taking second best and just another company's economy machine is just not a fair statement since Hobart quality is excellent and is second to no one. ITW owns a lot of different companies most of which do not even pertain to welding.

You mention the warranty, but when you go to the warranty site it lists the warranty as being handled by HOBART/Miller electric, not the other way around. That would be kind of odd for Miller to put the Hobart name first if they did indeed own Hobart, don't you think?

www.hobartwelders.com/pdf/warranty.pdf


Hobart/Miller electric MFG company Appleton Wis.

[radkins]

Lincoln, Miller, and Hobart are all good quality and you can't go wrong with one of their stick machines.

Both Hobart and Miller are owned by ITW and share technology and mfg facilities.

Lincoln, Miller or Hobart and you can't go wrong-for a fact! Any of these machines are top notch, Lincoln is and always has been my choice but then that is because they served me so well for the last 35 years.

Miller and Hobart do indeed share some of the same technology on the smaller machines but they are still fierce competitors and Hobart is in no way just an "economy" version of Miller. Hobart has it's own R&D department and is a world leader in welding consumables, most of Hobart's facilities are in Ohio while Miller's is in Wisconsin.



Miller had a couple larger models that Hobart didn't offer.


I remember reading there was a clause in the sales deal that prohibits Hobart for a number of years from building machines over 250 AMPs, it is a competition thing between the two companies mandated by ITW. This is because Miller is aimed at the heavy industrial sector while Hobart is focused on the small shop and farm market, this works out well for both of them in this highly competitive and saturated market.


Some years ago I saw a gasoline powered welder that was identical to my Lincoln Ranger 8 except that it was painted entirely black, it was new and still had tags tied to it but I could not read the name brand on it because of some boxes that were in the way. Does anybody know the brand name on this thing? I could see enough of the name to know that it was not a Lincoln, in name anyway.

[radkins]

No, Hobart is a less expensive version of Millers machine. I have worked on them. Same part numbers internally. I order the parts from Miller. Except cheaper overall construction.

There are a couple exceptions. The Miller Econotig and the Hobart Tigmate are the same crappy machine. Only difference is the paint. The stick machines are also identical.

The difference between the two companies is most apparent in the Mig machines. Tapped transformers and plastic wire feed assemblies are standard versus infinite voltage and a cast aluminum feeder on the Miller.

Heck, when you call tech support you get the same guys.

Miller is to Hobart as Chrysler was to Plymouth.

As for the OP and of the machine will be fine but be sure to get a DC machine.

-Jerry



They are owned by the same parent company and share a warranty service provided by ITW but Miller does not OWN Hobart no more than Pontiac owns Chevrolet and Hobart is not a stripped down Miller. As I pointed out the warranty is handled by HOBART/Miller electric of Appleton Wisconsin, kind of strange that it would not be Miller/Hobart if Miller did indeed own Hobart!


Just for laughs and giggles go to Hobart's forum "Weld Talk" and tell them that Miller owns Hobart. Those guys will talk about any kind of welder but they mostly like Hobart and Miller and even though it's a Hobart site it seems most like Miller better than Hobart. This non-sense about Miller owning Hobart comes up all the time but when it does it is debunked straight from the "Horse's mouth".

[Too_Many_Tools]

Does it matter if a machine has a copper versus an aluminum transformer?

[Ohio Mike]

I remember reading there was a clause in the sales deal that prohibits Hobart for a number of years from building machines over 250 AMPs, it is a competition thing between the two companies mandated by ITW. This is because Miller is aimed at the heavy industrial sector while Hobart is focused on the small shop and farm market, this works out well for both of them in this highly competitive and saturated market.


Hobart used to be heavy into the industrial market but not any more. The concession that ITW made on purchase was to pull Hohbart out of the heavy end of the market to make the government happy as combined the two would have owned to much market share.

I think much of the Hobart/Miller confusion comes from the fact that many of Hobarts own documents show the Miller part numbers for things like consumables (tips etc). The wire (aka MIG) welders are very different in design but even my Handler 210 uses a Miller supplied gun. It even says Miller right on it. ;)

[radkins]

I think you are right about the name/ownership confusion and things like guns, tips etc are generally "off the shelf" items as are some internals such as switches, relays etc. ITW also owns Bernard MIG guns which are used on a lot of the larger machines, they can also even be found on Lincolns, so it would not make economic sense to build different parts like that for different machines.

I knew there was something about the 250 AMP limit imposed on Hobart but I had not heard about it being to satisfy the Government, that does indeed make more sense about why they would do it. Bottom line is both companies share some common "off the shelf" parts and are owned by the same parent company but neither owns the other nor is one just a stripped down "econo" version of the other, they are two different companies aimed at two different markets and both are very good quality machines. When someone is looking at a Hobart there is no reason to think they are having to settle for second best.

[boslab]

buy a new one, i picked up a US made [i didnt beleive either] thermal arc inverter for about £240, sounds a lot but i've tried to kill it with 3.25 stainless [303/316] rutile, [vodex/murex/eirlicin/iron powder/ hardfacing rods] and it wont give in, i have a 250 amp oil cooled and itl knock spots off it, easy start with a stable arc and will do lift arc tig too.
Treat yourself, get a good quality inverter and save lugging a bloody monster air cooled round.

[macona]

They are owned by the same parent company and share a warranty service provided by ITW but Miller does not OWN Hobart no more than Pontiac owns Chevrolet and Hobart is not a stripped down Miller. As I pointed out the warranty is handled by HOBART/Miller electric of Appleton Wisconsin, kind of strange that it would not be Miller/Hobart if Miller did indeed own Hobart!


Just for laughs and giggles go to Hobart's forum "Weld Talk" and tell them that Miller owns Hobart. Those guys will talk about any kind of welder but they mostly like Hobart and Miller and even though it's a Hobart site it seems most like Miller better than Hobart. This non-sense about Miller owning Hobart comes up all the time but when it does it is debunked straight from the "Horse's mouth".

Never said Miller owned Hobart. ITW owns both like you said. Just like Chrysler Corp owns the names Chrysler, Dodge, and Plymouth. Just like There was the Chrysler Town and Country, the Dodge Caravan, and the Plymouth Voyager they we all the same basic vehicle with different feature packages.

Except for a couple low end machines like the Handler 125 which are Hobart only the machines are just Miller machines without some features. Like I said before, Miller 140 Infinite Variable Voltage, AutoSet, and All aluminum wire feed, Handler 140, Tapped Transformer and mostly plastic wire feed. If thats not a stripped down version of the same machine I dont know what is.

Other than that they are identical except for the paint and stickers. Even the serial number format is the same.

Like I said, internal part numbers are the same, sometimes with miller stickers. When I had access to the Miller intranet the site covered both Miller and Hobart.

All of Hobarts larger, older, machines are now supported by Thermal Arc. Thermal Arc continued to make the Hobart industrial machines under their name but painted purple.

A couple of Hypertherms small plasmas were actually millers in disguise. The 350, 380, and Miller still makes the 190c for them.

FWIW, I am a miller certified tech.

[radkins]

Miller 140 Infinite Variable Voltage, AutoSet, and All aluminum wire feed, Handler 140, Tapped Transformer and mostly plastic wire feed. If thats not a stripped down version of the same machine I dont know what is.
FWIW, I am a miller certified tech.



As I said before Hobart and Miller are aimed at two different markets and there is nothing stripped down about the Hobart, for example the internals where it really counts is what most people think is "stripped down" on the Hobart but is it?

Handler 175 - COPPER transformer primary winding, COPPER transformer secondary winding, COPPER choke winding

Handler 180 - COPPER transformer primary winding, COPPER transformer secondary winding, COPPER choke winding

Handler 187 - COPPER transformer primary winding, COPPER transformer secondary winding, copper choke winding

Handler 140 - copper transformer primary winding, aluminum transformer secondary winding, aluminum choke winding

Millermatic 210 - ALUMINUM transformer primary winding, COPPER transformer secondary winding, ALUMINUM choke winding


Only on the low end 140 Hobart are the Aluminum windings used but the MM uses it on the 210. Internals vary on both machines from model to model with some definitely sharing design and parts but the usual blanket statement that Hobarts are just Miller economy machines infer that they are lesser quality when that is not true and that is the point I am trying to make.


I am not saying you are wrong about anything I am just pointing out that the "Urban Legend" that Miller owns Hobart is simply not true and that Hobart is not an inferior quality machine.

[mark61]

Who cares anymore! Time for EVERYONE to turn off the computer and GO BURN WELDING RODS!

mark61