More questions on MIG, TIG, and Stick

[hwingo]

I am still shopping for a welder. At one time I considered the Miller Passport *because* I want to weld thin steel and aluminum. I still desire to use MIG but I also desire to have the ability to "stick weld". When I finally called our local dealer and prepared to purchase the PassPort, I learned that this unit was only MIG; it was not possible to stick weld with this unit.

I also learned that I could only weld for a very short period of time (perhaps only 5 minute) because of duty cycle.

Is it impossible to have a small welding machine that could be used (with proper attachments) to MIG, TIG, and Stick weld? Apparently they make units that will accommodate TIG or Stick but from what I gather, they do not make a unit that could accommodate MIG or Stick.

Any thoughts on this. BTY, as stated in a previous post in this welding section, I have VERY LIMITED knowledge and limited experience in welding.

Harold

[Bguns]

Not impossible just expensive.. Constant current vs constant voltage... So 2 almost completly different power supplies. The plumbing would be complicated for shielding gases and coolant for torch...

Different gases used for different processes/metals, so even if you had an all in one, you would still need 2 or 3 cylinders...

My own machine is a Lincoln Squarewave 175 Pro It goes down to 6 amps and I have the Pulser option...Does AC DC Stick and TIG.

If you want to weld Aluminum you need at least 1 amp per .001 of metal thickness, so mines not a heavy duty aluminum welder... at over 130 amps or so of heavy TIG welding, you are going to want a watercooled TIG Torch with cooler...

Duty cycle on an American machine should not be much of a problem. You spend a lot of time not welding, during a typical 1 off non production job...


I have a seperate cheapy MIG with Gas option... Fluxless wire in a small MIG is not what you want... When you get to 300 amps and rough erecting work fluxless rules...

[andy_b]

Harold,

if your main purpose is thin steel and aluminum with occasional heavier stick welding, i'd go for one of the better stick/TIG machines and forgo the MIG option. many years ago i was in your shoes. not much welding experience (well, i still don't have much welding experience :) ), but i wanted to weld plain steel and maybe aluminum. i figured the aluminum would be a rare occurrence, so one project i had i just had a local welding shop do it for a few dollars. i ended up purchasing a small 110V stick welder. what a mistake, since it is almost impossible for a newbie to learn to actual weld with one of those things.

i had that little unit for a few years, tried to use it a few times, got frustrated, and ended up buying a Lincoln 110V MIG unit. as has been pointed out, a MIG welder will make beautiful welds, even for a newbie. of course the welds may only penetrate 0.001". it took me a while to learn about penetration and become pretty good with that machine (i am not a professional welder who welds all day). i mainly use the flux-core wire and most of my projects were between 1/16" and 1/2" thick steel, so the small unit worked fine.

i then had a few ideas for some projects with thicker steel, as well as some small brazing and aluminum projects. about two years ago i went to look for one of the stick/TIG machines and after thinking about it for a while, realized the aluminum welding would still be limited, and i could try brazing with propane, so i ended up getting a used Lincoln 220V buzzbox stick welder for very cheap. you can actually weld with one of them, as compared to the crappy 110V stick welder that only goes to 90A (end i think that is being overly optimistic). i can lay down some pretty decent welds with the 220V stick welder now. i even butt-joined two pieces of I-beam for a log splitter and so far it has held up to the 25 tons of force with no signs of failure. :)

so, i still wanted to do some brazing. forget propane or MAPP gas unless all you want to do is join two pieces of 1/4" rod only one time in your life. it was an exercise in futility almost as bad as trying to use the 110V stick welder. i also had several occasions this summer where a real OA torch would have come in very handy to heat stuck parts and bend some metal. plus i had a project i had been contemplating for a few years that involved cutting some heavy steel plate. i realized the aluminum welding would still be very limited, and there was no reason i couldn't try it with the OA torch anyway if it really came down to it. and that is how last week i ended up with the used OA torch setup that brought about my "OA newbie needs help" post.

so, the purpose of this long-winded reply, decide what you really want to do with a MIG/TIG/stick/OA setup and what projects you would do first. back when i bought the small 110V stick welder i had no idea i would ever want to do brazing or cut 2" steel plate, so that wasn't a priority. i still would like to weld aluminum, but my use of a TIG setup would be limited almost exclusively to aluminum since i rarely have any thin gauge steel projects i want to weld. at some point i may purchase a TIG unit, but for now i don't really need it.

i would say i have less than $1200 invested in all of my machines (i still have the 110V stick unit, the new MIG unit, the used 220V buzzbox and the used OA setup). a decent stick/TIG machine will probably set you back more than that once you get the machine and gas tanks. right now i can probably do anything except weld aluminum, and like i said, i would experiment with using the OA torch for that if i really wanted to since i have seen some BEAUTIFUL aluminum welds done with a torch.

decide what you REALLY want to do, and purchase the machine(s) that will do what you want. besides, even if you purchased one of every machine to do all types of welding and cutting, it would take you ten years to figure out how to use them all with any proficiency. there's no reason you can't purchase one machine, learn to use it, and at a later time purchase the next machine and learn to use that and so on.

oh, and on the duty cycle thing, on occasion i have caused my little MIG unit to go into thermal shutdown. it takes about 15 minutes of steady welding on the highest amperage setting, and then it shuts down for about 5 minutes. in normal use it never shuts down because you aren't welding 100% of the time. i have come nowhere close to causing the 220V stick welder to shut down, even going through a bunch of rods on the 230A setting. i really doubt you would ever shut a machine down welding sheet metal or aluminum. your hands and eyes would get tired before the machine does.

andy b.

[hwingo]

Good Morning Guys,

This pretty much answers my questions as well as addressing a few thoughts/concerns/issues which I did not mention.

bguns: I really need to *make time* and visit with you. We are only a few miles apart and I could probably be at your place in 20-30 minutes at the very most. Would like to talk about radios, smithing/machine shop, and even welding. I have basically adopted the Knik River area as my hunting & fishing grounds. I spent Moose season between Jim's Creek and Friday creek but had no luck. Saw several moose but none met legal harvest criteria. That's really a remarkable area for photography and enjoying the out-of-doors.

Andy:
You addressed several issues which I had not mentioned, however, over the past 5-6 months, I had just about come to the same conclusion ...... "Nothing will do ALL and somewhere along the time-line there will be a need for several welding units.

Without "re-plowing" ground that I previously "plowed" in a previous post on this forum, one poster on this welding forum really provided me with some very good information and in fact suggested that I consider the Miller PassPort. Without going into a lengthly discussion, I had previously stated that I once owned a Miller TIG/Stick welder .... and it was a very nice machine. The issue was, I was (still am) poorly trained/skilled at TIG welding. I could never weld aluminum with the TIG torch. My attempts were horrible at best. However, to a certain extent I can stick weld.

I have seen individuals, having limited knowledge and experience commensurate to my experience, effortlessly weld with a MIG with seemingly good results. So that's the reason I thought I would go the MIG route. Stated differently, it seems to be more idiot proof when welding steel or aluminum and less technique sensitive. :o

I really doubt that I would ever be welding steel that remotely approaches 1/2" thickness. However, I can envision welding 1/4" thick plates of aluminum or tacking 1" or even 2" diameter round aluminum to 1/4" aluminum plates. And I suppose tacking 1" or 2" solid round aluminum to 1/4" aluminum plates will likely be a problem for the Miller PassPort. Nevertheless, I would like to have that ability. I have no idea if the PassPort can be used in that manner.

My other desire is to weld/tack together thin pieces of metal, e.g., car body repair. There is little doubt that the PassPort could easily handle such a job.

The last substantial criteria is to have a light weight unit that is VERY portable and takes up little storage space. The Miller PassPort definitely fits that criteria. It weighs about 35-40 pounds and will run off 110V or 220V and can be used in countries having 50 Hertz rather than 60 Hertz (which we use) "juice". It's about the size of a small suitcase so it could be tucked into a "cubby hole" with little problem.

Wish you guys would take a look at the specs on the PassPort and tell me if you think the unit is capable of welding aluminum parts as described above.

Thanks,

Harold

[Bguns]

Forget the Passport..It is an inverter but...

That tiny internal tank will drive you nuts , if you are not doing remote back of the tailgate repair work, on a single broken fence gate hinge... It is a light portable rig... putting a full size tank on it, just makes it a bulky portable rig.
I prefer my welders to not have plastic cases, usually plenty of hot things around to melt them on....

You need/want an Inverter power supply based welder... You can kinda stick weld :)

Voltage/freq flexible comes standard... lighter weight and smaller size. Miller has some, Lincoln many.

A Lincoln Invertec V205 is about what you want.. 33 lbs... Auto switches for power 110/220 50/60 hz http://www.weldingmart.com/Qstore/p002553.htm

Miller has a highly rated welder but not cheap..
http://www.millerwelds.com/products/tig/dynasty_200_series/

It is easier to just get a separate MIG welder.(Like a passport but cheaper). They are fairly light and small in the class that you need. For aluminum MIG, a spool gun is almost a must.. here is a 220 volt model...
http://www.mylincolnelectric.com/Catalog/equipmentdatasheet.aspx?p=42422

I have no experiance with small miller welders, only 400 Amp models...

Lots of stick time on small to medium lincolns. Stick TIG MIG...

You are limited in power in a residence by only having single phase, so anything over 250 Amps, is going to require special wiring, maybe a electrical service upgrade etc...

Welding aluminum is not effortless with even the best machine... Alloy, contamination, and surface prep all can make or break a weld. Some alloys just don't weld...

If you think you can weld a 2 in solid alu round on a plate, and make it hold with less than a Pro quality Mig or TIG, it's not going to happen.... That passport is rated at 1/4 in Sheet alu and 2 in solid round is just not going to happen..... if you need any kind of strength...

Even if you could make it stick, you will have a 1/2 deep or better depression in plate from distortion

Thinwall 2 in round to plate sure tho...

If you are bad at TIG, only 2 things help... Get a OA rig and practice with that... which will get you puddle control and filler metal skills.. Very multi capable also....

The other thing is practice (a welding course at local collage would help)

MIG requires less skill, but you can make some pretty welds that won't hold a thing... For load critical work, I still run to 7018 Stick rod...

I don't yet have any time welding Alu with MIG, from what I have seen, it looks suitable for welding fishing boats together with speed, but nowhere near as nice looking as a TIG...

MIG is nice for thin sheetmetal due to speed.... TIG is slow............

[andy_b]

Harold,

a few points. even with all of the welding junk i have, the biggest setup is the OA stuff because of the two gas tanks. i could stack the 110V stick, 110V MIG and Lincoln buzzbox all on top of each other (or on shelves) and it would fit in a 2'x2' space in the corner.

on wirefeed welding aluminum. when i worked in the engineering and maintenance department for a large bakery i had a chance to use a spool gun for aluminum. it is FAR from idiot-proof. like i said, anyone can lay down a bead with a MIG gun on steel, but aluminum is an entirely different game. also, the flash from aluminum is much more intense than steel. i have only gotten welding flash burns one time in my life (and i frequently use the MIG welder with shorts and sneakers) and that was welding aluminum with the spool gun. i seem to pick up the various welding methods fairly quickly, but i think it would take me at least 50 hours to be able to make halfway decent welds in aluminum. you say you tried to TIG aluminum once. i bet you did just as well with TIG as you would with a wirefeed welder on aluminum. that is one of the reasons i have shied away from aluminum for now. i think it would be a big pain and i'd generate a lot of scrap before making useful welds.

now if you want to do beautiful welds, try a MIG on stainless. when i got to do stainless it was always a joy because no matter what i did the welds came out smooth and clean. :) too bad stainless is as expensive as it is.

andy b.

[hwingo]

Well, heck. I am no closer to a decision as to what welder to purchase than I was 8 months ago. I *think* I realize that a TIG/Stick is likely a better choice over the long-haul but the initial convenience of a TIG/Stick seems to be far less and over-shadowed by a MIG in several arenas. At least it would appear that way from someone ignorant of facts like myself. For example:
1. the tiny MIG has practically no weight and can be easily moved or shipped from one location to another
2. the tiny MIG, having no appreciable size, can be easily stored where storage space is a premium around the shop or home.
3. the MIG gun can be "poked" into far reaching tight spaces (unless the hand spool gets in the way) with only one hand, e.g., into the undercarriage of a car, whereas the TIG cannot reach into far reaching spaces and requires two hands (one to hold the filler rod and the other to hold the torch, and possibly a foot to activate high frequency).

Drawing on my limited experience of owning a Miller TIG/Stick welder (which was not solid state and could not be moved because of size and weight), and after my initial attempts at TIG welding (which ended in total failure because I didn't know what I was doing), the TIG component proved costly and worthless.:o Such was especially defeating when I would see young kids get a summer job at a muffler shops and MIG weld muffler components in seemingly effortless fashion. It simply appeared to me that use of a MIG was far easier and more forgiving.

I welcome your views and encourage any play as a "devil's advocate" because you guys have more experience than I.

Harold

[gnm109]

All of the above information is excellent.

Just to reaffirn: If you want portability, you need an inverter machine for TIG/Stick and a smaller MIG. You will still need two machines to do all three processes because of the constant current/constant voltage dichotomy.

If you have a portable intverter TIG/Stick, unless you drag your cooler with you, you are going to be using an air-cooled torch. They are OK but not ideal for heavier work, say 1/4" stock. They do get rather hot.

I tried a small 110 VAC Lincoln that I borrowed from a friend and convinced myself that I needed a 220 VAC unit. I now have a Lincoln 175 Plus that does nice MIg welds up to 1/4" on steel. I also have a Miller Syncowave 200 for the other things. I seldom Stick weld, but if I need to, I can. I'm not the least interested in portability, however.

So, for portability, you are looking at the inverter machines. They are very nice, indeed but, as I'm sure you know, they are quite a bit more expensive.

[andy_b]

1. the tiny MIG has practically no weight and can be easily moved or shipped from one location to another
2. the tiny MIG, having no appreciable size, can be easily stored where storage space is a premium around the shop or home.
3. the MIG gun can be "poked" into far reaching tight spaces (unless the hand spool gets in the way) with only one hand, e.g., into the undercarriage of a car, whereas the TIG cannot reach into far reaching spaces and requires two hands (one to hold the filler rod and the other to hold the torch, and possibly a foot to activate high frequency).

Harold

it sounds to me like you want a MIG unit. :)
on point #3, yes, that is certainly an advantage of a MIG unit. you can't just poke the gun in there though as most guns are curved and you need to have the nozzle at the proper orientation to the work. i think on some the shield on the nozzle may be conductive so if it is leaning on the metal you are welding it could cause problems.

one point to consider. if you are going to MIG weld aluminum, you MUST use a shielding gas. this means you will need to also store/ship/carry that gas tank around with you. now you can get a small tank (maybe 3' tall and 4-5" diameter), but the tank and refills will cost almost as much as a larger tank.

like i said, decide what you REALLY want to weld first, and buy that setup. i doubt you will initially be poking around inside automotive frame rails (especially not on any car newer than about 1980 since most no longer have frame rails :) ), but if you really need something small and portable, then that type of machine is what you should look at first. whether it be a MIG or TIG unit.

andy b.

[Carm]

"3. the MIG gun can be "poked" into far reaching tight spaces (unless the hand spool gets in the way) with only one hand, e.g., into the undercarriage of a car, whereas the TIG cannot reach into far reaching spaces and requires two hands (one to hold the filler rod and the other to hold the torch, and possibly a foot to activate high frequency)."

You can't beat stick rod for access to tight spots, though technique becomes important. That technique will get you through light gauge sheet metal as well, including rusted sheet metal, something MIGs just don't do well, no matter how you squeeze the trigger.
Want to weld aluminum, stainless, brass? Change the rod. You won't weld aluminum with the rig you're considering and even with the right rig you'll have to change spools & probably liners and gases.
MIGs are great for a steady diet of clean mild steel or alooneyum but versatility isn't a hallmark.

[wmgeorge]

Well, heck. I am no closer to a decision as to what welder to purchase than I was 8 months ago. I *think* I realize that a TIG/Stick is likely a better choice over the long-haul but the initial convenience of a TIG/Stick seems to be far less and over-shadowed by a MIG in several arenas. At least it would appear that way from someone ignorant of facts like myself. For example:
1. the tiny MIG has practically no weight and can be easily moved or shipped from one location to another
2. the tiny MIG, having no appreciable size, can be easily stored where storage space is a premium around the shop or home.
3. the MIG gun can be "poked" into far reaching tight spaces (unless the hand spool gets in the way) with only one hand, e.g., into the undercarriage of a car, whereas the TIG cannot reach into far reaching spaces and requires two hands (one to hold the filler rod and the other to hold the torch, and possibly a foot to activate high frequency).

Drawing on my limited experience of owning a Miller TIG/Stick welder (which was not solid state and could not be moved because of size and weight), and after my initial attempts at TIG welding (which ended in total failure because I didn't know what I was doing), the TIG component proved costly and worthless.:o Such was especially defeating when I would see young kids get a summer job at a muffler shops and MIG weld muffler components in seemingly effortless fashion. It simply appeared to me that use of a MIG was far easier and more forgiving.

I welcome your views and encourage any play as a "devil's advocate" because you guys have more experience than I.

Harold

MIG is easier to use by far and you can get a nice little portable (without gas) one like the Hobart 140 or the Miller 150 either one works great on 120 volts if you don't need to weld anything over say 1/4 inch. Add gas and it makes a nice shop welder. I also have the Maxstar 150 Stick/TIG invertor, (14 lbs) best stick welder you will ever use and works great on everything but TIGing aluminum as it is DC only. The Maxstar is 120/240 volt. If you want to learn TIG take a night class at your local community College like I did.

[hwingo]

Guys,

Please forgive me for my sporadic responses. There has been much going on in our family.

Aside from a surviving son, now serving in Afghanistan, and one deceased son (killed at 14 years of age), my wife and I have a daughter (24 years of age). Our daughter recently had a massive stroke leaving her paralyzed on her right side. This severely affected her speech as well. My wife is German and our daughter lives in Germany. She was visiting her grandmother in America when she began having severe headaches. After some testing they determined that she had a brain aneurism which required emergency surgery. Entering the skull, in addition to the aneurism, they found an AVM (arterial-venous malformation). This too is a serious matter and they decided to repair the AVM first. Repair is either made using wire to occlude the AVM or by shooting glue into the defect. The doctors decided to use glue. Apparently they shot glue in the wrong area causing an IMMEDIATE, MASSIVE stroke leaving her paralyzed for life. Hearing about similar AVM repairs, we are TOTALLY fortunate that Rebecca is still alive though Rebecca may not see this as we do. Rebecca was not married nor has she ever been married. Rebecca has no children and this means that my wife will have no grandchildren. Recovery, such as it is, will be very slow .... measured in years. Though a beautiful young lady, her chances of ever being married have been cut to near ZERO. Although such is not impossible, it will take a *VERY SPECIAL* man to take Rebecca as his wife in her condition. Any *rational thinking* individual has to concede that her chances of competing for a handsome man of good breeding stock are now severely limited. Looked at differently, I liken this to a beautiful young Prom-Queen ..... having the pick of any young man of her choosing ..... being grotesquely disfigured in a terrible accident. What now are her chances of having the same choice as before the tragedy? What handsome young man, having his choice of most any beautiful young lady, would elect to date and marry a grotesquely disfigured young lady requiring untold amounts of future medical bills for which he would ultimately be responsible? Looked at it in this light one must come to grips with facts; should this tragedy befall a young man or young lady, chances and choices are slim-to-none .

Rebecca is back in Germany in a rehab center.

Harold