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View Full Version : OT Gas utility harassing me. What can I do?



Errol
10-25-2009, 01:06 PM
I have a dirt driveway approx one mile long crossing a gas pipeline (Terasen Gas).

5 years ago, I applied for a standard residential gas service to provide heat for my home and shop. The gas guy came out with his clipboard and said the installation cost to me would be $58,000.

On fixed income, I couldn't afford that type of money, so I have been heating with propane and wood.

One day the gas pipeline crew saw me grading my driveway, and said I would need a permit to cross their pipeline. They said it would be a rubber stamp application. I said no problem, So I applied for a permit.

They said with the permit application they needed a cheque for $11,950 for them to unearth the pipe and inspect it, and if a heavier pipe was needed, the upgrade would be at my expense.

They then advised a 4000Kg GVW load restriction on my crossing.

Now I can't have my propane delivered. Nor can I grade my driveway, or plow snow with my grader in winter time.

I applied for an "air gap crossing. They said that would only be valid for only one year, then they would have to dig up the pipe and inspect it....etc.... etc...

Has anyone been harassed by their utility company? How did you deal with it?

ptjw7uk
10-25-2009, 01:33 PM
I would question as to who owns the land the driveway is on.
I have found the utility companies think they own the world but its not allways true.
In Uk if a utility crosses someones land they need a 'wayleave' and it should be on file somewhere usually in your deeds if you have just bought the property.

Peter

Mike Burdick
10-25-2009, 01:43 PM
Errol,

What was there first - the driveway or the gas line?

winchman
10-25-2009, 02:59 PM
It's like Peter said. The right-of-way agreement should be referenced in your deed to the property. It's going to spell out what you and the gas company can and cannot do within the ROW.

You need to get that document and make sure you understand it before you proceed.

Roger

Evan
10-25-2009, 03:03 PM
Their pipe is three feet deep if it goes under any sort of traveled roadway.

What matters is who owns the land and if that is you or somebody else then does Terasen have an easement on the title? If they don't have an easment then they have nothing to say. If you aren't digging but instead spreading gravel they have nothing to say.

If it is your land and there is no prior easement then it is they who are in a bind. You can tell them to remove the line. Also, you don't have to have Terasen do the installation to your residence. They are required to provide access to the feeder line and to make the actual connection at a standard price. You or anybody else can dig or plow in the residential drop which only needs to be 18 inches deep using the proper plastic pipe and an insulated finder wire brought out at the meter. I had mine plowed in with a slitter plow and it cost me about a dollar per foot.

As for the weight restriction insist on an axle load restriction instead with a speed limit.

J Tiers
10-25-2009, 03:12 PM
They are required to provide access to the feeder line and to make the actual connection at a standard price.

is that actually true?

That would be true in an urban setting in the US, but if you are a mile from the nearest pipe or more, they may charge for access installation. Especially since that last mile presumably is all on HIS property.

Electric utilities have given bids here of $10,000 to bring in electric from a distance. The people in that case went solar.

Easements are another thing.... There WILL be one, and if the driveway was there before, the easement may have been forced, no choice, by "eminent domain", or the Canadian equivalent.

We have same here, some folks found that developer-built structures, including parts of houses, were on an ancient easement for a gasoline pipeline. They were forced to tear down the structures, and very severe restrictions are placed on the use of the property.

Still, if it was there before, the gas co should have been forced to make sure the crossing was safe (US). If you put in the driveway later, then you have to abide by the easement, and you may be unable to put in one without expensive upgrades.

Canada may be different.

wierdscience
10-25-2009, 03:18 PM
If it's a local service line,like a municipal line you have rights,especially if you were there first.

If it's a cross country line,well that can get sticky quick.It comes down to who owns the property the line is buried in,when it was buried and the right of way law in your locale.

Errol
10-25-2009, 03:29 PM
Both my driveway and the gas line are on public (unoccupied) government land. I hold legal tenure over my driveway.

Mike, the old roadway was part of an 1890 horse road. In discussions with Terasen Gas, they made a statement that the gasline was there first, but that is not true. (No gas pipelines in 1890)

Evan, I offered to dig the trench with my excavator, but Terasen said that I was not a Terasen certified contractor, and the work had to be done by them.

I have been communicating with Terasen Gas for two years now on this issue, and am getting nowhere. Every department I talk to seems to be protecting the other one.

The gas guy came out and "located" the pipe as 36" deep at one end and 48" at the other end as it crosses my driveway. I asked if I could add additional fill on top of the existing roadway to further distribute "point loading", and the answer was no.

I asked Terasen how farmers could drive 30,000lb tractors and 80,000 combines and grain trucks continually over and over around and across the very same pipeline in adjacent farm fields. The reply was that "they are farmers".

In fairness to Terasen, they allowed me to operate my little tractor a 30 hp Kubota over the crossing to clear snow this winter. I had to submit the model and serial # so they could verify the GVW.

I remain restricted to 4,000Kg, about the weight of a partially loaded pickup truck.

Evan
10-25-2009, 03:31 PM
is that actually true?


Yes. I was dealing with the same company when I put in gas here. They wanted several thousand to put in the drop so I checked with the gas inspector and he informed me that they must provide access at a standard preset charge and anybody can do the installation of the drop as long as it meets code. If you dig a trench the inspector will check it before burial and if you have it plowed the person doing the plowing must be licenced. It cost me around $300 to have the drop put in. It will be higher per foot for a longer run because the pipe will probably have to be 1" instead of the 3/4 " I had. That won't make a big difference.

I also took reference pictures of the connection so there is no doubt of exactly where it is located.

When they were putting in the feeder they surveyed as they went. When they got to my place they discovered that my property line is 8 feet out into the road and that they couldn't cross my driveway without my permission. I wouldn't give it so they had to tunnel across the road and run the feeder along the other side the rest of the way to a couple of customers. The connection to their feeder is on my land with no easement so they have to obtain my permission to dig it up and cannot do anything about me plowing my driveway or the side of the road where the feeder enters my property for my hookup.

Nicad
10-25-2009, 03:44 PM
Now I remember why I hate the Gas company, They aren't the best at customer relations. Hopefully a lawyer can tell you your legal rights (Expect some lawyer warnings)

Evan
10-25-2009, 03:45 PM
Errol,

Offer to take them to small claims court for a judgement on the issue of weight restriction and priority if they won't back down on that. It will cost you about 50 bucks to file and you don't need a lawyer. The judge will help you with the legal details when you plead your case in plain english. He will be sympathetic to you and Terasen will have to send their legal beagle to Kamloops at great expense to sit down with you and the judge where the judge will give him a reaming for harrassing you.

Any licensed gas contractor can put in the drop to the house. Terasen had nothing to say about who I hired. Go to your local gas inspector and talk to him in person, explain the situation and ask him for a recommendation of who should do the work. He tells Terasen what to do, not the other way around. Be pleasant and ask his advice and opinion. He will have one. Get him on your side.

I have installed natural gas in two houses and in both cases I went to the gas inspector before doing so and explained what I was doing, when I was doing it and then asked for his advice on how best to do the installation.

At that point he puffed up slightly, leaned back and began to expound on the slight lapses in the code that he really thought needed correction. An extra elbow on the service entrance, hangers for the interior pipe more closely spaced and a 24 hour leakdown test instead of just 1 hour. That all cost me about 3 dollars to do and he approved the installations on the first look.

Black_Moons
10-25-2009, 03:49 PM
Sounds like some serious bull**** to me.. plus 4000kg?
thats not the weight of a fully loaded pickup, thats the weight of a semi truck. thats 4 TONS. 8000lbs, my truck is only rated for like 700kg max load and is only like 1300kg

at those prices it would be cheaper just to construct a 10' long bridge.

What you should do is start asking all your terasen gas 'reps' there full name and tell them that everything they say is being recorded for review with your lawyer. That changes peoples tones quickly when they know thier boss may recive a nasty legal summons soon with thier name on it.

If your truck says 4000kg in the registration, I suspect its been illegaly inflated so the vehical can be registered as a 'commerical' vehical, Iv seen other peoples registrations with gross weight's so high it would crush the truck like a pancake.

Fasttrack
10-25-2009, 03:58 PM
Sounds like some serious bull**** to me.. plus 4000kg?
thats not the weight of a fully loaded pickup, thats the weight of a semi truck. thats 4 TONS. 8000lbs, my truck is only rated for like 700kg max load and is only like 1300kg


If your truck says 4000kg in the registration, I suspect its been illegaly inflated so the vehical can be registered as a 'commerical' vehical, Iv seen other peoples registrations with gross weight's so high it would crush the truck like a pancake.

What?? My truck is 7500lbs empty. FYI your average semi-truck weighs about 28,000 lbs empty. Fully loaded is somewhere around 60-70k lbs - depending upon whether the driver has to go through a set of scales ;)

Lest you think that my truck was "illegally inflated", I measured my truck on a scale so I could determine how much my new machinery weighed. With the empty trailer, the weight was ticketed at 9000 lbs.

deeman
10-25-2009, 04:00 PM
I think what you have is an ambandoned government road.They control the use of it but are not required to maintain it or service it.Sometimes you can apply to buy it from them when the road is not used for access to others property.I had a similar situation with an access driveway...i wanted to use it for a business and they told me i would have to spend the tens of thousands to upgrade it.They would not sell it to me,maintain it in any way but they have the say in what you can do with it and how it should be used...nice eh

Evan
10-25-2009, 04:06 PM
Errol said he has tenure on the road. That probably means he has a 99 year lease on it. He should do a search on the title for that block of crown land to see if there really is an easement on it.

deeman
10-25-2009, 04:13 PM
Yeah..more info is needed.. i`m guessing his is leased like mine was...you can have a lease but they own and we all know who wins that battle if they really want to fight you.

Evan
10-25-2009, 04:25 PM
Fortunately we have a very simple and secure land title system. There is only one valid title and that is the current one. If it isn't on the current title it doesn't exist. This makes a search trivial.

Errol,

Contact the Land title office in Kamloops (you are lucky they are right to hand) or drop in and ask for a "Title Search Print" for the block of land in question. It will cost a few dollars and will give you the information you need to proceed.

Kamloops Land Title Office
Kamloops / Nelson Land Title Districts

114 - 455 Columbia Street
Kamloops, British Columbia
Canada V2C 6K4

General Telephone Inquiries: 250-828-4455
Facsimile: 250-371-3717

Registrar - Andrea Brace
Deputy Registrar - Susanna Lischka

Errol
10-25-2009, 04:28 PM
Evan, I hadn't thought of small claims court. I'm of the understanding that one must be "owed" something to go to small claims. I was thinking possibly of human rights or the office of the ombudsman.

Black Moons, one of my vehicles, a 1T camperized van weighs in at 8900lbs. My neighbour's 1T diesel is about 8000lb.

I suppose if I phoned 911 with a heart attack, the ambulance is supposed to read the GVW signage and turn around? LOL

Evan, I have tenure on the driveway, it is a renewable 10 year contract with the government priced at $500/10years. Everyone here in BC who accesses their property over public land is now subject to having to apply for road tenure. If you haven't yet, they will eventually get you too.

Originally when I declined their offer to apply for the road tenure, they(Front Counter BC) threatened to fine me. I also had to post an Environmental Bond and buy public liability insurance annually. There is also a permit to use licence fee.

Now I own a road, but basically can't use it.

That's why I was originally using the term "harassment".

gnm109
10-25-2009, 04:29 PM
I don't know about how the laws work in Canada. In the U.S., if you own the land where the gas line is placed, then it's likely that they have no more than an easement in gross. That means that they have the right to come in on your land and do repair and maintenance work on the line. Tha teasment in gross will show up on your title.

From what you have said, it seems that you don't own the land. If you do, there's no way they can set limits on your usage. I would see a lawyer.

Evan
10-25-2009, 04:49 PM
Evan, I hadn't thought of small claims court. I'm of the understanding that one must be "owed" something to go to small claims. I was thinking possibly of human rights or the office of the ombudsman


British Columbia, the Small Claims Court is actually the civil litigation arm of the Provincial Court of B.C. In a nutshell, it is highly deformalized but very much a court of law. Any claim of a value of $25,000 or less can be brought to this forum. A claimant can even bring a claim of a higher amount to the Small Claims Court, provided he truncates or "abandons part of the claim" to the limit of $25,000 (nor can a claimant split up a single cause of action into little parts all under the $25,000 threshold). The Small Claims Act also precludes any cases based on defamation or malicious prosecution. These latter claims, as those claims which exceed $25,000, must go to the Supreme Court. Note also that an appeal from the Small Claims Court is to the Supreme Court. Other cases, such as residential tenancy, are also precluded from the jurisdiction of the Small Claims Court.

Cost of a small claims claim is between $100 and $156 depending on how much you're asking for.

The Supreme Court judging tends to be of a better quality but the Court is "stuffier" and less "lay litigant"-friendly then the Provincial Court (for example, you have to call a judge "Lord" or "My Lady" in Supreme Court)!

In the Supreme Court, judges tend to frown on claimants that try to represent themselves, especially in complex matters of law.

This is actually cherished in the Small Claims. The procedures of the Supreme Court are more extensive and less forgiving than those of the Provincial Court. Costs are greater in the Supreme Court as well. Proceedings in the Supreme Court are also saddled with complex pre-trial legal procedures that only a lawyer could adequately understand; procedures which are not part of the Small Claims system. Nor is personal service always required as it frequently is in the Supreme Court; Small Claims actions can typically be served by double-registered mail.

One of the wonderful things about the Small Claims court is that the judge can "admit as evidence ... any oral or written testimony, record or other thing that the court considers is credible or trustworthy and is relevant to the matter being heard, even though the testimony, record or other thing is not admissible as evidence in any other court under the laws of evidence." Also, "a judge may conduct a trial without complying with the formal rules of procedure and evidence." That means that hearsay or parole evidence may be acceptable.

In one fell swoop, this section of the Small Claims Act allows the judge to "cut to the chase" of the case by eliminating many of the technical objections that lawyers like to use to implement their case strategy

http://duhaime.org/LegalResources/CivilLitigation/LawArticle-1/Small-Claims--British-Columbia.aspx


You can bring any claim in common law to the small claims court. In your case it would be to enforce your right to "Free enjoyment" of your land which means that Terasen must cease anything that may be viewed as harassment such as applying a different standard to your road than to somebody else's.

deeman
10-25-2009, 04:53 PM
Free enjoyment will be crushed by a safety concern,which is what they are attempting to do now.

Evan
10-25-2009, 05:07 PM
Free enjoyment will be crushed by a safety concern,which is what they are attempting to do now.

Only if they apply the exact same standard to all others in a similar situation. They can't just say "they are farmers".


I asked Terasen how farmers could drive 30,000lb tractors and 80,000 combines and grain trucks continually over and over around and across the very same pipeline in adjacent farm fields. The reply was that "they are farmers".

MTNGUN
10-25-2009, 05:13 PM
I feel for the OP. Shared access roads are a PITA.

My access road is about one mile long and crosses several properties. Several other people have easements to this road. The legal document defining my easement is vague and can be interpreted to mean just about anything you want it to mean.

People (and not necessarily the property owner) have been putting gates across my access road wherever they like, and sometimes locking gates without sharing the key. I respond by leaving gates open, which sometimes results in livestock getting loose. This has caused a lot of hard feelings.

As Evan said, the only way to settle the matter is to go to court. It's anyone's guess how a judge will rule. I hadn't thought about small claims court but will look into it. Even small claims court is still a PITA -- but it might be an even bigger PITA for some of the other parties who live out of state, so that is in my favor.

Black_Moons
10-25-2009, 05:57 PM
Ah sorry. im rather ignorant of larger working trucks weights. Did'nt think any standard truck could be that heavy.

tattoomike68
10-25-2009, 06:24 PM
Gas company's are bad, they shut me off for $12 and we never got a bill. they wanted $150 to turn the gas back on.

when they charged my neighbor $5,000 to hook him up 100' from the main I went out and video taped them screwing the dog, eating food, talking on thier cell phones,,, for 45 minutes about 8:00 am in the morning.

Once they saw me with a video camera they started working real fast, funny how that works.

Now days the video camera is my weapon of choice. when Idiots are screwing up I will video it. Now I have 2 video cameras with good zoom and the works so the video is high quality.

The local gas company is on my Zhitlist and I will video them screwing the pooch every time.

clutch
10-25-2009, 07:07 PM
My aunts husband was killed when he drove a piece of heavy equipment over a pipeline that was not buried deep enough.

Not taking any side here here but there can be valid concerns over what drives over a pipeline.

Clutch

MTNGUN
10-25-2009, 07:35 PM
My aunts husband was killed when he drove a piece of heavy equipment over a pipeline that was not buried deep enough.

Not taking any side here here but there can be valid concerns over what drives over a pipeline.
Clutch
Sure there is a safety issue, so you can't put an access road just anywhere. But in the OP's case, the road was there before the pipeline. In any event, the OP has offered to build up the roadbed over the pipeline. Seems like the OP is willing to make reasonable compromises while the Gas Company is being unreasonable. Hopefully the judge will take that into consideration.

I have learned something from all this. If I ever buy rural property again, I'll be more particular about getting a detailed description of access rights put into the deed. It's not good enough to merely say you have an easement, you need to spell out what kind of vehicles, how many vehicles, who is responsible for road maintenance, if you have the right to make improvements to the road, gates, locks, etc., every little detail.

deeman
10-25-2009, 08:25 PM
These are tricky situations...the government owns the land,the pipeline company has a deal with them...then there is the landowner who actually owns nothing if it is a government abandoned road.The road could be there 100 years before the pipeline however,there are road building codes/rules that have changed since then.Whether a guy down the road is crossing on his road means nothing if yours is unsafe in the eyes of their inspectors and going to court arguing what someone else is doing when it comes to safety means nothing.The next time you get caught for speeding,arguing in court that you were going the same speed as everyone else gets you nowhere.I have ran into this type of situation...as i said before..you have a right to access your property...they have the right to set the rules of what travels on it...the pipeline company has a construction code of what the road can handle..if you exceed it that you are asking for trouble.They should be made to give the land back to the original owners when they abandon it but they hardly ever do.Be careful when buying in these situations..i found out the hard way too.I just figured if they are not going to look after it what difference does that make....a big difference....they still control it and if they want ,can make your life hell.Can you imagine taking the pipeline to court..the government would be drug into it as well...good luck,they have more safety experts than you have dollars.

J Tiers
10-25-2009, 10:22 PM
The next time you get caught for speeding,arguing in court that you were going the same speed as everyone else gets you nowhere.

But you can get a ticket for NOT driving as fast as everyone else, EVEN IF that is well over the speed limit.

And in that case, obeying the speed limit is NOT AN EXCUSE.

Go figure.

"Basically, you are a dirty criminal. You have already done SOMETHING that can get you arrested and jailed. We just don't have enough evidence to make the charge stick. "

property laws are funny.

here, in Missouri, if you fence a neighbor's property, and they don't notice and object, in 10 years it becomes YOUR property, under a non-use and abandonment type law. I personally know people who have lost land that way.

if anything like that exists in Canada, there may be a case if that road has been the same for X number of years..... The easement document may or may not over-ride that. Here, no amount of deeds etc over-ride the taking of adjacent property by fencing it.

Evan
10-25-2009, 10:33 PM
Deeman,

In this case the feeder main is at the standard depth of 3 feet. That is the depth of the feeders here that go under every single driveway on one side of the road from here to town. Many of those driveways belong to people that operate logging trucks and they will frequently drive home with a loaded truck if they don't make it back to the yard in time at night. In this province a loaded 18 wheel truck may be loaded to as high as 92000 lbs and the double bunk trucks can go as high as around 120,000 lbs. It's exactly the same in Kamloops as here so the argument that there is a safety concern doesn't wash.

I checked the specs for the standard 4" polyethylene pipe used for the secondary gas mains here. At a burial depth of 36" it is rated for a 20 ton truck plus hiway speed impact with a safety margin of 400 percent. It would even be entirely safe at a burial depth of only one foot. Poly pipe doesn't crush easily when buried because it is flexible. It transfers the loads sideways to the surrounding soil.

J Tiers
10-25-2009, 10:53 PM
Interesting point....

the WEIGHT of the truck may be a whole lot LESS important than the axle loading....

On a longish truck some axles are at a distance, and don't contribute to local loading.... Specifying a weight alone seems frankly either stupid, or un-necessarily limiting, almost as if it was intended to make a problem for you.

A.K. Boomer
10-25-2009, 11:21 PM
Only if they apply the exact same standard to all others in a similar situation. They can't just say "they are farmers".

I totally agree due to the main emphasis being safety, it has to be and should be just as you state,

But,


the only way they could have a leg to stand on is if in this particular case its not a safely issue and is more of a "pipe maintenance" / "consumer" issue.

Please don't get me wrong --- I believe these guys are pricks just for the sake of being pricks ------ and I hate people like that, Im just trying to cover some of their legal basis so Errol won't be railroaded with a technicality but I also don't know squat about the law or the area, I suggest you chum up with a local legal, and if you don't then Evan's the next best thing as he's a little of both...

deeman
10-25-2009, 11:27 PM
Evan...i do not need convincing about the safety issues...when dealing with these companies/government they will be telling you what they want....we can all sit here and agree on how right we are however they make the decisions and those decisions are usually mind boggling.I have fought with every level of government about these type of land issues and lost not because i didn`t make any sense but because they make the rulings.I have installed finger piers in saltwater with less hassle than dealing with government abandoned roads and that went through countless government agencies...my only advice left would be good luck...and hope for the best.

Your Old Dog
10-25-2009, 11:50 PM
Out of curiosity, is this a neighborhood type service line or a high pressure cross-country main line? If it's only at 3-4 feet down I have to assume it's a neighborhood feeder line and that should not be nearly as stringent to deal with?

A.K. Boomer
10-25-2009, 11:51 PM
That's the flip side, cover every loophole that you can possibly imagine and if they want - they got enough funds to create (or "find") a new one,

everyone here knows im big on Chinese fortune cookies (not the cookie but the wisdom inside:p --- fer cri sakes its what my signature posts are made up of)

You want to avoid trouble? always try courtesy first (iv got more fortune cookies with the word "courtesy" in them than any other) --- if it don't work keep trying - don't do it out of habit, make it genuine, then - if that don't work then fuqe their sister (IMPORTANT; she's got to be of age and willing, and then get to their mom if you can too, legally) Then once more go back and try to have a man to man discussion about "Pipe maintenance" and maybe even "safety issue's" and bring up the fact that you forgot to use protection and "mum" might be sqweeking out a new pup, after that ask him how he feels about his new sibling that might be on the way ----------- see, anybody can play god with somebody's life if they want...

gary350
10-26-2009, 12:19 AM
Most states have a law that says, no one can deny you access to your property. The gas company has to comply with law weather they like it or not.

Do what you want and don't tell them about it. If they give you more trouble tell them to get that pipe line off your property.

I know what I would do, if they gave me a hard time that pipe line would some how explode about 3 am. A gallon of liquid nitrogen and a large rock would do the job. Make them replace it stronger claim it is a safety hazard.

There is one thing you can do. Don't tell anyone about the pipe line so the propane can be delivered. If some how that is too late then build a bridge over the pipe then your propane truck can make a delivery.

You can get a civil engine to calculate how much extra dirt needs to be bumped on the pipe so a heavy truck can drive over it.

doctor demo
10-26-2009, 12:26 AM
Errol, while You are going over all of the options of what to do for the long term.... Can You have the exact location of the line marked by the gas co. and then put a inch or inch and a half thick trench plate over that part of the road so as to remove any travel restrictions?

Steve

A.K. Boomer
10-26-2009, 12:33 AM
That's why I love this place --- DD that's good stuff, That's the next best thing to telling him your propane delivery truck is hovercraft.:D

rdfeil
10-26-2009, 01:07 AM
Errol,

Another option, not a way to fight the gas company, is to get a trailer for your propane tank. It could be a simple single axle setup. Tow the tank down to the pipe crossing and have the propane company fill it there. I am sure the fill hose weighs less than 4K :D . Then tow it back and hook up the pipe. Around here there are some very big tanks that are hooked up with a short hose to allow movement, that would make your hookup easier. I don't know what the laws are in Canada but in Washington State there is a limit on the size of the propane tank that can be transported on the roads (delivery and semi transport trucks are exempted from this rule), I think it is about 100 gallons, but there is no restriction on non public roadways.

If you can't beat them just beat them to a pulp with their own rules :D :D

Robin

bborr01
10-26-2009, 01:46 AM
I know what I would do, if they gave me a hard time that pipe line would some how explode about 3 am. A gallon of liquid nitrogen and a large rock would do the job. Make them replace it stronger claim it is a safety hazard.


I wonder if Canada has a homeland security dept.

I'm sure they would be interested in what caused the explosion. Terrorists, no doubt.

Evan
10-26-2009, 02:58 AM
We already have somebody doing exactly that in Northern BC. He has been blowing up natural gas pipelines for a couple of years now. Maybe Errol knows who he is. :D

Black_Moons
10-26-2009, 11:04 AM
Well at least we know why hes blowing up gas pipelines now. :P
I mean most people don't just go run around blowing things up without some kinda reason iv found.

airsmith282
10-26-2009, 11:32 AM
you own your house but not the property thats on it, big deciption there when you buy a house you do just that you buy a house,think of it this way before you yell at me ok,

you pay taxes during and after you paid off the house right, ok so i buy a house for 100,000 dollars, i dont have to pay gst and pst on the house or what ever your state or provincel tax is , ok but you I pay property tax to who the city or state you live in be it by the month or the year and they raise said taxes on us al the time, they also dictate what we can and can not do on said property right,
so who really owns the property well it aint you thats fact,if you miss paying your taxes for x amount of months what happens the givernment comes in kicks your ass out and takes your home and your property, makes you wouder if you now even own your home, , i wanted to run a 25 foot line off the pony to my shop si i can have 100 amp or more service to my shop only need 25 feet, hydro says ok we want 5000.00 dollars, i told them to kiss my rear , so ill put up with what iam using now and when i get the money for a 9000 watt genny ill tell them to kiss my rear somemore and then ill intsall wood stove for my heat,,

ok so back to the issue ok here is a good one, we are on well water here for over the last hundreds of years no one bugs us ok, fine now the city get the nuts to say ok everyone on well and spetic now how to pay us for the water, excusse me not going to happen we are in rule area and we do not feed off your chemicalize crap water we drilled for our own suply that does not even effect you at al and you want money for something thats not even yours i dont think so , well so far so good they are leaving us all alone after that so far but, iam sure they will find a away to bleed us all up here for more money thats not theirs to start with, ,

back to taxes on a home ok our place was last estimated at 100.000 for exmple taxes are 1500.00 a year in 10 years thats 15,000 on 20 years 30.000 dollars in 30 years you have paid 45,000 thats just about half what you paid for the house.

now every time you want to make and improvment you have to get a permit and have approved plans and so on and so on ,i call it asking for permission cause htey can refuse you what you want to do , but its your property right , nope its not , if you have to ask for permission its not yours, if oyu have to pay property taxes for the time in which you own said place of living its not yours, the next buyer and the next buyer and so on all have to continue to pay pay pay, you dont own nothing, you RENT, if they can take it its theirs , if they can make you pay for permission or even stop you from building something on said land its theirs,

you own a car right you pay for it in full and you pay taxes on it when you bought it and its yours till it all rots away,if you sell it the next ower pays tax on it but no where near what you paid, ok but that is something you own , now if you live in an area where all cars trucks etc must have plates on it or they will remove it is that car or truck now yours , guess what its not, if they can take it its not yours, or perhaps it is but to have it back, you ahve to pay the fines and the removel fess and so on and then get is licenced and you can have it back, another thing some places will limit you on the amounts of cars and other toys you can have on your so called property, well excuse me its my house, yup the house is yours but not the property , remember they can take it all away expecially if you fall behind in your taxes,

and people wouder why i rent instead of owning a house,

motorcyclemac
10-26-2009, 11:42 AM
Wow... I am amazed to read all this about Teresen Pipe Company. I have a 36" pipe under my driveway. Teresen has been nothing but very nice about it. They come out every year and mow the field over top the pipe. They send a fellow out to run a weed eater around the "buried pipe" signs. Every year they send a fellow around ..around Christmas time to bring presents. Last year they brought me some Leather work gloves with "Teresen Pipe" on them..and a 2D LED Maglight...with the logo etched in it. They occasionally send a fellow around when they inspect the pipe to let us know that they will be parked along the driveway and not to worry.

I guess it is something to do with the Canadian offices of Teresen that are so different. I have been quite pleased with the reps here.

Cheers
Mac.

digger_doug
10-26-2009, 12:14 PM
A 36" pipeline sounds like a major transcontinental
high pressure line to me. Like "little big inch".

They fly over that one with helicopters often to keep
a good eye on it.

36" might be running 1800 psi as well.

They want you (motorcyclemac) happy, if anything
"bad" should happen to that pipeline (on your property)
you will not be happy.

The O.P.'s pipeline sound's like it is smaller dia./lower pressure.

gwilson
10-26-2009, 12:15 PM
I never want to rent again,nor will I. A total waste of money. When my house is paid off,I can sell it,or get a reverse mortgage. I could rent for 50 years and have nothing. Worst case,a PITA landlord. I've even had them enter my house in the past when I wasn't there. They left doors open that were closed inside the house,etc. Of course,they denied it,but I know they did it.

I don't want any one having keys except the persons I choose to have them.

As for getting kicked off the property for not paying taxes,you will get kicked out just as fast for not paying the rent. Any of the fees or tax increases you mention that your landlord gets will be passed on to you in rent increases. So,what imaginary money do you think you are saving?

If you could spell or organize your thoughts better,we might be able to figure out what you are saying.

Evan
10-26-2009, 12:22 PM
The person blowing up pipelines in northern BC is pretty good at it. He has bombed 6 installations in two years and police still have no idea who he is. There is a one million dollar award out for him but no takers so far.

bborr01
10-26-2009, 12:39 PM
Just thought I would throw this in. About ten years ago or so, my wife and I and another couple were on our way back from a weekend in Chicago. Sunday night around 10 PM, I was driving near Kalamazoo and the other three were sleeping. All of a sudden the sky light up into a fireball. It looked like a mushroom cloud of fire. I woke everyone and we thought we were being bombed or something. It went from dark to fairly light almost instantly. Then more mushroom clouds, only smaller. We started to think maybe a paper factory in the area had burned and had propane tanks exploding.

When we got to Plainwell, we got off the expressway and went into town. Half the residents were outdoors. They said their homes shook from an explosion of a BURIED GAS LINE. This line was 48 inches in diameter and what amazed me the most was the pressure. News accounts listed the pressure at 720psi.

I never did hear what ruptured the line. It was in a rural area. Nobody was injured. But I sure gained a new respect for these big gas lines.

Brian

Evan
10-26-2009, 12:45 PM
I used to service equipment at Compressor station 5 not far north from here. They have giant 12 cylinder compressors with pistons the size of garbage cans. Six of the cylinders are powered by natural gas and the other six do compressor duty. The gas exits in a pipe about 16 inches in diameter on it's way to the radiators to cool it some before it goes back in the pipe.

That pipe that is carrying the newly compressed gas glows red hot. It's a pretty eerie feeling to watch that.

digger_doug
10-26-2009, 01:06 PM
I used to service equipment at Compressor station 5 not far north from here. They have giant 12 cylinder compressors with pistons the size of garbage cans. Six of the cylinders are powered by natural gas and the other six do compressor duty. The gas exits in a pipe about 16 inches in diameter on it's way to the radiators to cool it some before it goes back in the pipe.

That pipe that is carrying the newly compressed gas glows red hot. It's a pretty eerie feeling to watch that.


Yup, my well (well not MINE) feeds into a small line picking up 5 or 6
other wells (4,000 deep) and over the hill was a compressor station.

The well tender gave me the tour. It was a waukseha spark ignited
6 cylinder (under a crude roof) and was a 2 stage compressor.
The gas between the stages went to an intercooler in front
of the engines radiator, the 2" steel pipe running along side
the skid was devoid of any paint, and was vibrating like all get-out.
Yes, high pressure, and high temp natural gas...

The most intersting thing I thought was the total lack of
electricity. There was a standard ignition coil for each spark plug,
and a large electrical panel with several shutdowns (high temp,
low oil pressure, etc) There wasn't even a 12 volt battery
anywhere in sight. I inquired how do you crank this up ?

He explained that over there (the nicely painted gas line) was
the customer's main line (national fuel gas) maintained at
350 p.s.i., and here is where our pump dumps into it.

Here is a backflow preventer (check valve), and by bypassing
it, we use the main line's 350 psi gas to crank over (motor over)
this compressor to start it.

In talking to a mobile pipeline welder, he was working on
pipelines in the washington metro area. The largest down there
was a 36" line running 1800 psi, and there is a contractor
that they call in to hot tap it at full pressure....Not for me.

airsmith282
10-26-2009, 01:08 PM
I never want to rent again,nor will I. A total waste of money. When my house is paid off,I can sell it,or get a reverse mortgage. I could rent for 50 years and have nothing. Worst case,a PITA landlord. I've even had them enter my house in the past when I wasn't there. They left doors open that were closed inside the house,etc. Of course,they denied it,but I know they did it.

I don't want any one having keys except the persons I choose to have them.

As for getting kicked off the property for not paying taxes,you will get kicked out just as fast for not paying the rent. Any of the fees or tax increases you mention that your landlord gets will be passed on to you in rent increases. So,what imaginary money do you think you are saving?

If you could spell or organize your thoughts better,we might be able to figure out what you are saying.

in my case i have an awesome landlord and my rent is gaurteed by them never to go up and in the last 8 years never has either, dounble bonus there , no not everyone is as lucky but, sometimes you do get a great landlord , the point is you dont own your property like you think you do, other wise if you did then , you would be able to do as you wish on your property and answer to no one, sure you can cut down trees so long as it does not and can no interfear with hyro or phone lines again more BS , see they way i look at it when you own a house its not cheaper then rent , if your furnace blows you have to fix it fast so your dont freeze to death, or the roof caves in or leaks like crazy again more money out, and no one that owns a house has an endless supply of cash unless their rich of course, then who cares, but on average thoes that buy homes dont realistly have the bucks in the bank when something mjore happens and then when it does some wont even get hte loan to fix the prblem cause theor maxed out in credit ,, ownig a house is a money pit, kinda like a car is but a car cost far les to maintain then a house, i bought my car 2 years ago its a 2006 and so far other then oil changes it only coset me 14 bucks for a part in my rear brake that broke not bad i think and i put on 33,000 klm senc i bought the car, now my truck i just bought thats abother story its a 95 and its last ower did not care for it so well , but once i have it all back to normale i dont expect any problems with it for atleast 3 or 4 years but we shall see.

today when you buy a home unless its bran new never lived in you got no real idea what your buying, i have done full renos on homes top to bottom and some of the surprises you get iam telling you if you knew ahead of time what was awating you you would not have paid half of what you did,

but thats another story aswell..

as fo this gas company thing the first thing id do is check the last survey see what you have purchased and whats yours and whats the gas companys,,
as for getting your truck back in for deliverys if there has been no prblem thus far then keep going unless you have recived a order in writting from the gas company saying you cant get your deliverys anymore,

as far as my spelling goes, live with it i do, , if you dont like it dont reply and get off my neck about it ,

given the fact that when they put in these gass lines they have to calulate for weight loads,that can possibley need to be on the road, if something happens then i would think well i would defently put blame on the gas company, for not putting the line deep enough or making it strong enough so that in the event a truck goes on your road and gets blown up you could not be to blame you know what i mean...

ok look at it like this right now were getting work done on out main road that is just off from my house, now its a majore road also know as HYW63 ok now they have so far carved down about 12 inches to get back to gravel again cause they are replacing the road, now for frost and the fact we got massvie transport trucks on this road al the tiem not to mention thousands of cars a day , they have to make it a certiand thinkness to with stand all this pounding so the same would have to be calucated in the case if the pipe line here it has to be burried a certian debth under the suraface and have a covering over it such that i can handle exccesive weight loads driving over top of it, , now if you own the property that the line is installed in you can tell them to remove it and go else where and they have to perioed, now if they have an easment on the property as some have mention then that would mean you have a property split or you just plain dont own that part of your mile longe driveway, now if yu get into more problems what you might do is ask your propane guy to send 2 smaller trucks that wont interfear with the pipeline BS then you get to win hear and get your propane delivered again ,

if you do own the property in full and the pipline is on your property you can charge them rent in order to make use of your property and they can leave the line in and you can get smaller trucks in to fill up your propane and you win all around, and you get rent and you can set the rent at any price you want, me id make it equle to cost of mortage and utilitys you pay this way you live for free and have all kind of cash to buy more toys,

think out side the box and you can accomplish anything...

motorcyclemac
10-26-2009, 01:16 PM
A 36" pipeline sounds like a major transcontinental
high pressure line to me. Like "little big inch".

They fly over that one with helicopters often to keep
a good eye on it.

36" might be running 1800 psi as well.

They want you (motorcyclemac) happy, if anything
"bad" should happen to that pipeline (on your property)
you will not be happy.

The O.P.'s pipeline sound's like it is smaller dia./lower pressure.


Yes, you are correct. What I have under my driveway is a high pressure transport line that goes from refineries to various distribution terminals and tank farms around the west coast. IF it was to have a rupture and God forbid a fire...it would be catastrophic for sure. It is about 650 feet from my house. That isn't far enough if there was a problem... That radius would likely be ground zero in the even of an "issue".

They do fly that line with a very nice green white and orange Bell Jet Ranger helicopter several times a week. They fly low and slow...at tree top level. We often exchange waves if I am outside. There is a tank terminal about a mile from my house where they park the helicopter. I have been contemplating stopping overthere and trying to bum a ride with the pilot. He is a nice fellow. I would love to have his job...lucky schmuck.

It used to be Terasen but in the last couple years or so it was bought by Kinder Morgan. The customer care level was quite good when it was Terasen but has gotten even better since Kinder Morgen bought them out.

I guess I am pretty lucky by the sounds of the earlier posts. They treat us very well.

Cheers
Mac.

digger_doug
10-26-2009, 01:20 PM
Yes, you are correct. What I have under my driveway is a high pressure transport line that goes from refineries to various distribution terminals and tank farms around the west coast.

I have been contemplating stopping overthere and trying to bum a ride with the pilot. He is a nice fellow. I would love to have his job...lucky schmuck.



A helicopter ride ? heck I'd push 'em for a tap on the line ! forget the helicopter ride

motorcyclemac
10-26-2009, 01:33 PM
A helicopter ride ? heck I'd push 'em for a tap on the line ! forget the helicopter ride


Heh...well..that tap better have a helluva regulator. Besides...that the material they transport is diesel, avjet and gasoline...not natural gas.

Now...I could heat my home with all those...but I would imagine I might get laughed at when I go to the heater companies and request a forced air furnace that runs on Jet A. Jet A is close to diesel and would work in a "furnace oil" heater.

Cheers
Mac.

camdigger
10-26-2009, 01:37 PM
I'm a bit surprised that determining the depth of the pipe is so expensive. When I've done line crossings in the past, we do a "first call" or a "dial before you dig" call and it is the utility's responsibility to locate the line. "first call" line locates are only valid for 14 days. You could do a first call every time you want to snowplow... Mind you, it is a bit inconvenient for you because you're supposed to give the locators either 24 or 48 hours notice....

To excavate in the vicinity of the line, it is usually the party ordering the excavation's responsibility to verify the depth of the line by either hand excavation or an accepted alternative. Lately, that alternative is "hydrovac" in which a water jet loosens the soil and it is vacuumed up with a special unit. There's a dozen and one contractors in the phone book that do nothing but line "daylighting". Hourly rates are about $250 - $300 /hr. Simply blasting a hole either side of your road shouldn't take more than 1 hour of work plus travel time. After the line is exposed, you can leave the holes open for as long as it takes for the Terasen rep to come and check the line depth with a tape. It is usually at the line owner's cost for this verification.

If the road was in prior to the line's installation, there should be a crossing agreement in place. The original agreement should specify the measures required to cross the line with heavy equipment.

It's been a while since I've worked in B.C. 2 years, but I think most of these points still apply...

camdigger
10-26-2009, 01:41 PM
Heh...well..that tap better have a helluva regulator. Besides...that the material they transport is diesel, avjet and gasoline...not natural gas.

Cheers
Mac.

If you're going for a tap, your furnace better have multi fuel capability. It's not unheard of for the lines to carry different products at different times. There is some mixing, but apparently the line operators have figured a way to deal with it. (I suspect by blending off contaminated jet A into the diesel and contaminated diesel into the gasoline).

digger_doug
10-26-2009, 01:53 PM
If you're going for a tap, your furnace better have multi fuel capability. It's not unheard of for the lines to carry different products at different times. There is some mixing, but apparently the line operators have figured a way to deal with it. (I suspect by blending off contaminated jet A into the diesel and contaminated diesel into the gasoline).


Who said anything about using it for heat ?
Burn it in your car/truck...

As far as mixing, I was told when the "mixed area" flows into
the receiving end, as they are testing it for off spec, they
put the "off spec" material in a tank called "slush".

The off-spec "slush" is trucked back to the refinery (or a small
refinery is set-up locally) and it get's re-refined.

They say the mixing is less than 1-2% of the total order, I always
assumed a pig was used for separation.

BTW Jet-A may be pipelined, but my friend explained avgas
is most always trucked (or a dedicated line is used), to
keep contamination down (and I thank them very much for that).

motorcyclemac
10-26-2009, 02:18 PM
Well..it would be nice to have free fuel... But I'll simply accept their presents and good community relations.

By the sounds of it... It could be worse.

This pipeline topic has me gotten me thinking. I guess I never thought about mixing fuels in that line. I know that they pipe gasoline and diesel thru that same line. I never thought about how they start and stop different products.

That is interesting.

Cheers
Mac.

gwilson
10-26-2009, 02:22 PM
I cut down my trees when I feel like it. Of course I am not living in England,or Canada,where the liberals try to make all your life decisions for you. I had to take down a 100' tree leaning over power lines,and my house. I just had it removed,no government involved. I also took down 7 very large pines,32" in dia. when building my shop. No gov't. there,either. Mature loblolly pines are dangerous. My yard is still full of them,and I have a slate roof. They drop large,rotted branches and have to be pruned of them. Amazing how long those branches get.

Errol
10-26-2009, 02:26 PM
Your old dog, the pipe under my driveway is a 12" pipe that runs over 900psi in wintertime, lower pressure in summer. And yes it is patrolled weekly by helicopter.

AKboomer, yes, I agree. my last letter to them, I sucked it up, did some groveling and took an appologetic and humble approach, but it didn't do me any good so far. But I agree, humble and polite is the best approach, because I certainly don't want to give them reason to get pis..d off.

No wonder they want $58,000 for my hookup when they have a christmas gift offerings down there in the state of Washington living near the pipeline for you guys, motorcyclemac. LOL.

Evan, the bomber is no one I know. One day someone will make a movie about the guy blowing things up, but it won't be me. A few years ago there was another fellow, Mr. Ludwig in northern Alberta that tried to fight a gas company and lost his battle, and now out of jail, living the life of a marked man, so that won't be me either.

Yesterday I went to visit with an 82 year old neighbour for some advice. He suggested that I remove the 4000Kg load restriction signs and lay low till they make the next move. He has the same restrictions as I do and they haven't harassed him yet, but he is fearful of the Terasen bully tactics spreading to other neighbours if someone gets them pis..d off.

That's another consideration that I can see developing now... my neighbours concerns.

Dave S.
10-26-2009, 02:42 PM
Can you build a bridge over the pipe line crossing so you can get the propane truck in for deliveries.

Dave

RancherBill
10-26-2009, 03:21 PM
Here's a different approach.

Every private property must have legal access. As it stands now you do not have full access to your property.

You have to go back to your deed etc to see if there were any special terms or caveats related to access. If there are none it is the Crown's problem. Let them deal with Terassen.

I have a friend who became landlocked through road widening, highway upgrades etc. He got tired of beating his head on the wall. He sat down and got a media info kit organized and called a news conference. The next day all the papers, TV etc had a great story about this guys demand for the gov't to buy him a helicopter so he could legally get to his house.:) :) The problem was totally fixed within four weeks.

You have a great story, 'Retired Guy Snowed In"

Escalate above the bureaucrats.

RancherBill
10-26-2009, 05:03 PM
Who said anything about using it for heat ?
Burn it in your car/truck...

As far as mixing, I was told when the "mixed area" flows into
the receiving end, as they are testing it for off spec, they
put the "off spec" material in a tank called "slush".

The off-spec "slush" is trucked back to the refinery (or a small
refinery is set-up locally) and it get's re-refined.

They say the mixing is less than 1-2% of the total order, I always
assumed a pig was used for separation.

BTW Jet-A may be pipelined, but my friend explained avgas
is most always trucked (or a dedicated line is used), to
keep contamination down (and I thank them very much for that).

I did some work at a fuel terminal In Calgary. All the product comes in the same pipe from Edmonton. 300km - 185miles. The actual badly mixed product is only about 100 feet-30meters of product. It goes as you say to the slush tank and is trucked back for re-refining.

Jet fuel comes in the same pipeline.

tattoomike68
10-26-2009, 07:48 PM
Can you build a bridge over the pipe line crossing so you can get the propane truck in for deliveries.

Dave

good idea an old rail car bed on piles with ramps would be half way cheap and do the job, farmers and loggers make bridges that way all the time.

the gas company is just being A$$holes, trucks drive over underground pipes all the time. A trash truck can be #55,000.

deeman
10-26-2009, 08:25 PM
People are forgetting that the road is not his..it belongs to the government,you cannot build a bridge on a government road without their approval,not to mention the structure being approved by their engineering team and up to the code...bridge=big time money.Don`t tell your insurance company about your situation whatever you do...a firetruck cannot get to you....insurance cancelled.

motorcyclemac
10-26-2009, 09:04 PM
People are forgetting that the road is not his..it belongs to the government,you cannot build a bridge on a government road without their approval,not to mention the structure being approved by their engineering team and up to the code...bridge=big time money.Don`t tell your insurance company about your situation whatever you do...a firetruck cannot get to you....insurance cancelled.

Ah...you might be on to the solution right there. Perhaps going to the media with a story about how the pipe line company is restricting your ability to receive proper 911 response. A news story with the right slant that makes the pipe company look like monsters that would rather see your house burn down or have you suffer with an injury could do the trick.

My driveway is actually a legal easement both with my neighbor and the pipe company. The pipe company is entitled to use a 40 foot wide path where it crosses the drive. It is all written clearly in contract about how they may not restrict access to my land and if they must obstruct the driveway (such as digging up the pipe) they must provide alternate access. Alternate access would be steel plates over the ditch or plastic construction mats around the site to drive on. All that said it is clearly outlined that they cannot prohibit my vehicles or any service vehicles from entering my property.

I can't imagine that your property could be sold without proper service road access and the ability to receive proper 911 access.

You need to take this up the food chain...and don't include the pipe company. This is a county executive issue...and then the media...if the county claims selective hearing issues.

Cheers
Mac.

Evan
10-26-2009, 09:36 PM
Don`t tell your insurance company about your situation whatever you do...a firetruck cannot get to you....insurance cancelled.

Not here, the price goes up though. Not every one has a fire dept. We don't. Insurance is more expensive but they won't cancel it.

tattoomike68
10-26-2009, 09:37 PM
People are forgetting that the road is not his..it belongs to the government,you cannot build a bridge on a government road without their approval,not to mention the structure being approved by their engineering team and up to the code...bridge=big time money.Don`t tell your insurance company about your situation whatever you do...a firetruck cannot get to you....insurance cancelled.

Like I saiid what about trash trucks, they are heavy, fire trucks are not light, fawmers dont haul ight loads, if fact farmers haul big heavy loads, I know.

like motorcyclemac says they have an unsafe and under engineered pipeline and its up to them to fix it, make those a$$hole build a bridge or fix it.

put the screws to them bastards.

Evan
10-26-2009, 10:16 PM
The bridge is a complete non starter unless Terasen approves it. It's illegal to obstruct access to a buried utility unless the utility approves. Period.

However, there is a possible workaround. I have been doing research on the forms of road tenure here. The width of the right of way for the access road is a maximum of 65 feet (20 metres). Errol said that the pipe was measured at 36" down on one side of the road and 48" on the other. If this was just across the actual roadway that is a significant slope. In that case there may be room within the right of way to move the roadway over to the side where it is buried deeper. All it would take is a stub fence to block the current roadway and to grade the new portion as a slight deviation from the original track.

I would ask Terasen to measure the pipe depth within the entire right of way without saying what you intend. Then ask what depth provides acceptable protection for the line. If it has not been surveyed then take the width as being from the centre of the current road to 32.5 feet (10 metres) either side.

The load carrying capacity of the pipe increases greatly with each foot of depth. You might even take the Kubota and spread some gravel in the area to make it a little deeper. Routine road maintenance, you know...

John Stevenson
10-26-2009, 10:56 PM
The onshore gas pumping stations here on the East coast that takes the gas from the North sea and transports it on are powered by big Rolls Royce RB211 jet engines that run on the gas and drive centrifugal pumps to pass the gas on at 750 psi in 20" pipes.

We used to build and service Airport fuel tankers for shell, BP and the Ministry of Defence. When they came in for repair they had to be empty as they can't run loaded on public roads because of the way they are built as regards safety.
If a road going tanker has a valve knocked off it only leaks what is in a short section of pipe, if a refueling tanker has a valve knocked off it drops the whole load, hence being drained.

However the idle bastards used to pump off until it sucked air then stopped sharp because running dry damaged the pumps. All the filters and pipes were still full and held about 100 gallons.

If we had to remove piping pumps etc for a clutch swap they had to be drained so we had about 100 gallons of Jet A1 kicking about, we used to pump this into the heating tank and run the garage off this.
Shell / BP etc didn't want it back as it was contaminated and anyway it wasn't there :D.

Once they sent one out with about 600 gallons on and refused to take it back for draining, insisting it was empty, took nearly a day to drain it off into 45 gallon drums, hardest job was getting enough clean drums.

Bastard job but someone had to do it :D

Ironically they always managed to drain the little petrol bowsers right down to about 1/2 a pint :mad:


.

1937 Chief
10-26-2009, 11:32 PM
What if you were to pour a concrete patch over the pipe drive area, about 6 in thick? Or install a raised bridge over the pipe? Seams like a solid bridge of telephone poles raised 6 in above the road would do it. Stan

Evan
10-26-2009, 11:37 PM
Read the post above John's. It's illegal.

Guido
10-27-2009, 12:34 AM
We've no idear how long Errol has owned the property, and hopefully he has not 'had the britches put on him.' A 'real good buy' in real estate can easily mean the purchaser is not listening/questioning carefully and something is fishy. I'd meet with the realtor who represented me in the purchase and ask questions, ie. those which should have been asked/answered prepurchase.

My last question would be for the name of the lawyer who had given that realtor the most grief over the years. It's getting late now, regarding warranty claims, but mis-representations by an established realtor can get very interesting, and satisfying.

Around these parts, guaranteed access to one's property is a given.

G

Arcane
10-27-2009, 02:57 AM
Go here:
http://www.neb.gc.ca/clf-nsi/rpblctn/ctsndrgltn/rrggnmgpnb/dmgprvntnrgltn/pplncrssngrgltn-eng.html
and then scroll down a bit to Publication - January 2006
Excavation and Construction near Pipelines - 2005 (includes the National Energy Board Pipeline Crossing Regulations, Parts I and II) [PDF 192 KB], click on the link and download the PDF and read through it. Looks like NEB sets the rules for everybody.

There is some interesting information in there...for instance:
Permission from the pipeline company is required for operation of a vehicle or mobile equipment across a right of way, outside the traveled portion of a highway or public road.
If your roadway was a public road and not a private one, the gas company could be told to pound sand.

"What Activities Do Not Require Permission?"
Under the regulations, you do not require written permission from the pipeline company or
approval of the NEB to install overhead lines or to excavate to maintain an existing facility, if
you meet certain conditions.

" These Regulations do not apply to an excavation caused by
(a) a pipeline company or its agents; or
(b) activities, other than the construction or installation of a facility, that disturb less than three tenths of a metre of ground below the initial grade and do not reduce the total cover over the pipe."
I read that to mean you can tell them to pound sand as far as grading your driveway goes as long as you aren't disturbing the soil deeper than a foot. This was probably included to cover farmers cultivating their fields.

You can also ask the NEB for its approval for you to cross the pipeline if you believe a condition required by the pipeline company is inappropriate or excessive and you cannot accept it. I think you have a good case that the conditions as set out by Terasen Gas are both inappropriate and excessive.

deeman
10-27-2009, 07:10 AM
Good link Arcane...the tricky part about this from what i have gathered from this conversation is,the road is public.however,it is "abandoned" which means the government still owns it but they are not responsible for maintenance.It also means since they also own it they can set the rules of how it can be used.They are not responsible for upkeep or maintenance but can control its use and also if they find a safety issue they can control that as well.Be very leery of buying a property that has access only from one of these roads..i had one and it was a nightmare.The government would not let me operate a small business on my property because the road was not up to their specs.I told them that the only truck traffic that was going to use it was my own but it made no difference..they refused to give me permission to start a business.A half mile road made to their specs would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars...even though the road was being used by trucks already for things like garbage pick up.They control it..it is their property...you have a right to use it under their supervision.I had to plow the road every winter...do the ditches myself...until i sold and got the hell outa there.We keep focusing on the pipeline and what is allowed to cross,it doesn`t matter if the vehicle isn`t allowed on the road...they could make a rule that stated..the only vehicle that is allowed on that road over a certain weight would be an emergency vehicle...its a bad situation to be in when you have to deal with any government....then if you get things straightened out with them...the next battle the pipeline company which you know is tight with the government.If you kick up a stink with the pipeline company they just might run to the government and put the clamps on everything like i mentioned before.

Tinkerer
10-27-2009, 11:51 AM
The gas company posted a sign with a GVW on it... Just change the damn sign or pull it. And do as you damn well please. A line at 36" to 48" below grade is safe enough from trucks and I mean Semi's. I have a high pressure feeder at the end of my drive and I drive a crane over it weekly and have tons of steel delivered all the time and I'm not the last guy on the list when they come. And told them (gas company) I'd be doing so when they put it in... was told it would be fine. Seems like they are busting your balls over the LP your using instead of using them. Hell take a pic of the damn sign and I'll whip up some text that looks the same and you can paste it over it... if they say anything just tell them you thought that they had finely come to their senses so why are they back peddling now. ;)

Errol
10-27-2009, 02:03 PM
Arcane, that is an excellent reference and one that I will persue. Thank you so much. Indeed, I will be sending them a letter. Like you say, it appears that the NEB has provided an avenue for cases like mine, and I too believe that I have a case to be considered because of "inappropriate and excessive" conditions set out by Terasen Gas.

Guido, I have been here 5 years. And yes, I too, feel that there was lack of disclosure on the part of the realtors when I bought this place.

Deeman, sorry to hear the govt harassed you to the point where you had to sell and move. Too bad. In my case I have a legal tenure over the driveway, so the road is not abandoned. That's another area I was thinking of persuing, to see if there is some statement hidden in the road tenure contract between me and the province of BC that defines reasonable access to a property.

To those of you who suggested a bridge..... Last week, I applied to construct a bridge type crossing. Terasen calls it an air gap crossing. They said no problem, but they put a 1 year time duration limit on it, and then after one year, I would have to excavate and x-ray the pipe for $11,950 plus upgrade costs...... the same as what they told me in their last letter. So doesn't make sense to build a bridge, then have to tear it down 12 months later.

What I'm going to do now is draft up a letter to the NEB as per arcane's observations. If they side with Terasen, then I will have to decide what to do then. One step at a time. Will keep you all posted.

camdigger
10-27-2009, 02:16 PM
Hey, Errol

Know anyone in Victoria or Fort St John? According to the Terrasen website, the OGC has some jurisdiction over pipelines as well as the NEB. I didn't realize the OGC had anything to do with downstream distribution. I was under the mistaken impression they were upstream (gathering lines only).

I'm not sure about BC, but in some jurisdictions the application to build the pipeline is part of the public record. All pipelines are numbered and those numbers are in the public domain - otherwise, how would you know who to contact for crossings, etc. The pipeline ID # should be available from a surveyor licensed in BC. All you should need to give the surveyor is what passes for your land location a87B-96J2 type format or LSD legal subdivision. This info may help with such mundane issues as date of construction (tenure argument or who was first) It may even lead to the construction contractors and possibly some documents outlining the original agreement. All is helpful when dealing with the bureaucratic machines that all government departments tend to morph into...

Evan
10-27-2009, 02:38 PM
To those of you who suggested a bridge..... Last week, I applied to construct a bridge type crossing. Terasen calls it an air gap crossing. They said no problem, but they put a 1 year time duration limit on it, and then after one year, I would have to excavate and x-ray the pipe for $11,950 plus upgrade costs...... the same as what they told me in their last letter. So doesn't make sense to build a bridge, then have to tear it down 12 months later.


Build a draw bridge and only count the time it's down. :D

Falcon67
10-27-2009, 07:23 PM
http://www.ladyofthecake.com/mel/saddles/images/toll.jpg

Black_Moons
10-28-2009, 06:33 AM
dig a big hole 20 feet away, wash away the soil exposing the pipe (or let rain do it), it will be unsuitable terrian for pipe burrial and they will have to move the pipeline. :P