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koda2
11-01-2009, 10:52 AM
Went to the local Looking Or Wandering Everwhere for Something store last week to gather supplies for a fiberglass project. As I walked to checkout I tallied up and all five items were quality made and made in the US! Try that at Wally World. I pointed it out to the clerk and thanked her for supplying American-made stuff.

The same day I went into a local bearing supply store to get a bearing for my Makita drill (made in Japan). It had soldiered on for 15 years bulldozing large bits and 3" deck screws till the front bearing wore out. Sure enough it was easily repairable.

However, when I got the best bearing they had (SKF) it was made in India. I asked for a bearing made in the US and he said they didn't have any and most of the time they were made in Chech, Romania or elsewhere. He got pretty pissy with me until I explained that every bearing made elsewhere was somebody's job lost in America and that next time it might not be their job, it might be his. We got along okay after that.

My modus operandi is to buy quality and buy American if you can. My guess is that if 300 million Americans started asking for good US-made stuff, there wouldn't be any lost jobs.

Dave A.
The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten

Evan
11-01-2009, 10:55 AM
Any idea how many foreign made parts are in your Made in USA products?

TxBaylea
11-01-2009, 11:04 AM
If the value of the dollar continues to slide we will see more products being made here.

Vernon

hitandmissman
11-01-2009, 11:10 AM
This is not only a USA problem Evan it is a Canada problem too. Buy from your own country first and foremost. Take care of yourselves first. Jobs, Canadian or USA that is the bottom line.

koda2
11-01-2009, 11:23 AM
Evan,
Your implication is well taken.
The VIN number on my Tundra indicates it was "made" in the US. On closer evaluation many of the drive train parts, etc, were "made" in Japan.
The term "made" is losing its significance. More precise would be "assembled" "manufactured" and so on.
For simple materials, such as vinyl tape, "made" would probably be sufficient.

Dave A.

gnm109
11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Went to the local Looking Or Wandering Everwhere for Something store last week to gather supplies for a fiberglass project. As I walked to checkout I tallied up and all five items were quality made and made in the US! Try that at Wally World. I pointed it out to the clerk and thanked her for supplying American-made stuff.

The same day I went into a local bearing supply store to get a bearing for my Makita drill (made in Japan). It had soldiered on for 15 years bulldozing large bits and 3" deck screws till the front bearing wore out. Sure enough it was easily repairable.

However, when I got the best bearing they had (SKF) it was made in India. I asked for a bearing made in the US and he said they didn't have any and most of the time they were made in Chech, Romania or elsewhere. He got pretty pissy with me until I explained that every bearing made elsewhere was somebody's job lost in America and that next time it might not be their job, it might be his. We got along okay after that.

My modus operandi is to buy quality and buy American if you can. My guess is that if 300 million Americans started asking for good US-made stuff, there wouldn't be any lost jobs.

Dave A.
The quality is remembered long after the price is forgotten


Unfortunately, it's no longer possible to find American-Made goods in U.S. stores anymore, even a small percentage of the time. Nice sentiments and good luck in the future.

Evan
11-01-2009, 11:34 AM
Canada doesn't manufacture most of they goods it uses. It buy the majority from the USA. We are the USA's best customer and the USA buys more from Canada than any other country. If the "Buy American" legislation isn't amended it will have some very serious unforseen consequences for both countries. The politicians don't seem to recognize that and probably think that the US buys most of it's products from China. Bush though that Mexico was the largest trading partner. If Canada is cut off from exporting goods at the previously and still in effect NAFTA rates then Canadian companies will go bankrupt. This will greatly increase the price in the USA of a wide variety of goods which will add serious fuel to the inflationary fire. It will also cause American companies to go bankrupt as Canadian companies stop buying American.

The biggest problem right now is that the US labour unions have the current politicians in their hip pocket. They would rather set their ass on fire than agree to cross border trade no matter what it may cost in the long term.

Good Luck.

MTNGUN
11-01-2009, 11:38 AM
I used to think that the "buy American" crowd was old fashioned, but I am starting to feel the same way.

I still buy a lot of imports -- who doesn't ? -- but I give preference to Made-in-USA when the price is within my budget. Drill bits are a good example.

I have a few questions for the "buy American" guys ? Should Canadian machinists buy only Canadian tooling ?

Am I supposed to stop buying German chainsaws?

Should I sell my Swiss micrometers?

Should we boycott all products made in the UK ?

Evan
11-01-2009, 11:48 AM
Boycotting products will result in a trade war. Nobody wins a trade war. British Columbia alone exports 5 million cubic metres of raw logs to the US each year. There is a great deal of pressure here to stop that. It won't take much to push the government to restrict such exports and if we do it will cost perhaps 10,000 jobs in the US for that item alone.

Tony Ennis
11-01-2009, 12:02 PM
"My guess is that if 300 million Americans started asking for good US-made stuff, there wouldn't be any lost jobs."

As soon as we're ready to pay for American labor and for the costs of business-choking environmental regulations, etc, there will be American-made products.

terry_g
11-01-2009, 12:03 PM
I always purchase a North American made product first if available. Most Asian products the quality of the material can be poor and the workmanship varies. Importers likely look for the lowest price first with little thought about quality.
There are a couple other things I wonder about, one is the shipping costs, mainly fuel as these big freighters that traverse the Pacific ocean measure their fuel consumption in tons per hour.
Do they go to Venezuela to fill up where gasoline is 5.9 cents a litre, diesel would be about the same price.
The second is why are there no trade quotas and tariffs on some of these imported goods. Canada and the U.S. have a trade agreement that protects both sides. We wont be able to buy their products when we no longer have jobs


Terry

John Stevenson
11-01-2009, 12:11 PM
If the value of the dollar continues to slide we will see more products being made here.

Vernon

Only if you still have the facilities / machinery and the skill set to run it.

.

Tony Ennis
11-01-2009, 12:12 PM
why are there no trade quotas and tariffs on some of these imported goods.


1. Because we like inexpensive stuff.
2. If we put any serious tariffs on China they'll call in our debt and cream our economy. Oops maybe we shouldn't have sold our souls for inexpensive plastic Chinese crap.

gregl
11-01-2009, 12:22 PM
Just having returned from an 8700 mile cross country trip, I have a new understanding of Made in America.

We went through Waterloo, Iowa, home of John Deere. It's a town that looks worn out. Too many of the homes are vacant, left behind with the 1980s loss of some 13,000 manufacturing and food-processing jobs, a loss from which the city will never recover. In spite of the museum-quality collection of classic middle-American residential and commercial architecture, Waterloo's broken windows, dark apartment buildings and empty factories hint at an America that has more problems than anyone celebrating the flag at Mt. Rushmore would want to think about.

Throughout New England we saw the closed mill buildings, some of which have been converted to other uses -- boutique apartments, artists lofts, or just hangouts for transients and graffiti artists. In Greenfield, M.A., once a center for America's industrial strength, the 19th century Greenfield Stamp & Tool building now houses only memories of it's original tenant.

But we also toured the Starrett factory (which I reported on elsewhere on this forum) and the Stickley furniture factory in Fayetteville, N.Y. In both places we saw proud workers creating quality products, the cars of 600 employees in the parking lots of each. And we thought about those 600 jobs and the benefits they brought to their holders as well as the chain of other people who are directly or indirectly affected. And it gave me a new respect for the people who make things and the importance of supporting their efforts. When I see that Starrett indicator priced so much higher it's Asian counterpart, I'll remember the quality I saw being put into it, and I'll also see those workers who are earning a good wage, supporting their families and contributing to the American economy, and I won't complain about the price when I write my check.

dp
11-01-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm old enough that anything I buy at Wally World is going to outlast me. The nearest store is so far away as to nullify any enthusiasm I may have to shop there. Never been in one for the purpose of shopping, but I really don't care about the country of origin as a factor in that market segment. It's all junk - Wallmart's junk is just more affordable.

wierdscience
11-01-2009, 12:35 PM
Import items don't bother me so much,a quality product is a quality product no matter where it is made.This is the USA and we have ALWAYS traded goods with other countries.

What is new however are old line US companies trading on the reputation they made for themselves in the past to sell cheap product now for a high price.

Vise-Grip went to China,did the price go down and the quality stay the same?Nope,are they paying US scale wages to the Chinese workers,also Nope.

Same with Cleveland Twist Drill,Mexican drills at US prices.

Now if the quality of those two products had remained the same I wouldn't mind them being import under a US badge,but it's not the same.

And it's not just the US doing it.I recently bought some Fasto huck rivets,two cases infact.Fasto was/is a German company known for quality.The new boxes of rivets-Made in China,but I still paid the "German quality" price.I just hope Hans the QC inspector checked the wire stock the Chinese made the rivets from.

wierdscience
11-01-2009, 12:50 PM
Just having returned from an 8700 mile cross country trip, I have a new understanding of Made in America.

We went through Waterloo, Iowa, home of John Deere. It's a town that looks worn out. Too many of the homes are vacant, left behind with the 1980s loss of some 13,000 manufacturing and food-processing jobs, a loss from which the city will never recover. In spite of the museum-quality collection of classic middle-American residential and commercial architecture, Waterloo's broken windows, dark apartment buildings and empty factories hint at an America that has more problems than anyone celebrating the flag at Mt. Rushmore would want to think about.

Throughout New England we saw the closed mill buildings, some of which have been converted to other uses -- boutique apartments, artists lofts, or just hangouts for transients and graffiti artists. In Greenfield, M.A., once a center for America's industrial strength, the 19th century Greenfield Stamp & Tool building now houses only memories of it's original tenant.

But we also toured the Starrett factory (which I reported on elsewhere on this forum) and the Stickley furniture factory in Fayetteville, N.Y. In both places we saw proud workers creating quality products, the cars of 600 employees in the parking lots of each. And we thought about those 600 jobs and the benefits they brought to their holders as well as the chain of other people who are directly or indirectly affected. And it gave me a new respect for the people who make things and the importance of supporting their efforts. When I see that Starrett indicator priced so much higher it's Asian counterpart, I'll remember the quality I saw being put into it, and I'll also see those workers who are earning a good wage, supporting their families and contributing to the American economy, and I won't complain about the price when I write my check.

What's a shame is if you had wanted to tour the offices of law firms,insurance providers,and government you wouldn't had to even leave home since they are so plentiful.

There was a war between the productive class and the un-productive class and the un-productive won.

dlsinak
11-01-2009, 01:27 PM
Hmmm, maybe shop class should be reintroduced into the highschools. Maybe the problem is that we are letting a bunch of ignorant politicians make the policies and laws to protect us from ourselves.

Maybe the reason the foreign manufacturers are doing so well selling their goods to the USA is from our younger generations having either no manual skills or theoretical education with no hands on experience combined with no motivation.

Perhaps the reason is that corporate America has no loyalty towards the worker and the younger generation realizes it, and has no motivation to put in an appropriate effort.

I remember there was a story (not fictional, I just don't remember all the details) several years ago that a small business in the Philadelphia area needed welders and general shop workers to fulfill a multi-million dollar government contract. He couldn't find anyone local that had basic shop math skills or basic shop knowledge, he advertised at many community colleges and what trade schools he could. He even offered a decent wage and benefit package and added an incentive for workers to move to his area. End result was that he was unable to get anyone who had any basic knowledge and had to let the contract go. This entire story was published in the newspaper sometime 4 or 5 years ago. Pretty pathetic that our country can't even provide trade training in high school and through community colleges and that the motivational level of many or the younger generation is so low that they wouldn't enroll anyway.

Bottom line is that it is now and has been a world economy for a long time. Worldwide, the level of quality needs to increase. To stay nationally competitive, we have to change the work ethic, trust and loyalty between corporate America and the worker, a two way street. We need as a nation to make the accountants understand that sometimes it is just plain good for a business to treat the employees well and not treat them as just a number.

Next.

Ries
11-01-2009, 01:36 PM
Hmmm, maybe shop class should be reintroduced into the highschools.

I remember there was a story (not fictional, I just don't remember all the details) several years ago that a small business in the Philadelphia area needed welders and general shop workers to fulfill a multi-million dollar government contract. He couldn't find anyone local that had basic shop math skills or basic shop knowledge, he advertised at many community colleges and what trade schools he could. He even offered a decent wage and benefit package and added an incentive for workers to move to his area. End result was that he was unable to get anyone who had any basic knowledge and had to let the contract go. This entire story was published in the newspaper sometime 4 or 5 years ago.

Sounds fishy to me.
We have shop classes in all 3 of the high schools my kids have attended- and I mean right now. Yes, the shop class now also has a CNC router and is teaching CAD/CAM, but they still do woodworking, machining, sheet metal, and welding.
In fact, they had a pretty decent shop class in the middle school in Bellingham Washington my kids went to.
And we have a whole network of GREAT community colleges and technical schools in Washington State, which are government run, so they are cheap, that have welding, machine shop, and manufacturing technology classes.

I have been hiring kids with 2 year AA degrees in welding for almost 20 years now, from community colleges, and they are well trained, ready to work, and have good skills.
I have never had a problem finding these employees- I just call up the instructors at the community college, and ask em to send over their best kids- I have probably hired 20 kids this way since the late 80's.

Now maybe Philadelphia is totally different- I dont know- but in California, and Washington, where I have done business, this story would be complete baloney- the real story would be, the owner wanted to pay minimum wage, for experienced welders or machinists, and the potential employees laughed at him.

Its absolutely true that we have FEWER kids who learn to weld or run machines- but thats because 5 kids in sneakers with I-pods, running 2 million dollars worth of CNC mills, can put out the same amount of product it took a 100 guys running bridgeports and southbends to do in 1955.

I know one man shops that crank out more product than many small factories used to in the sixties. Ox, over on PM, works alone, except for some help from his teenager- and he makes as much stuff as 20 guys used to.

So there are not the jobs for 10,000 grads a year in machining, but where I live, a good machinist or welder still finds work.

koda2
11-01-2009, 01:45 PM
To all,
My original post was not made to fuel a heated discussion about global trade politics, but hopefully only to keep a few more people from losing their jobs.

Nonetheless, I would submit a few contentions:

-"Nobody wins a trade war". Absolutely. Trade wars are more like to occur when trade imbalances reach extremes or when trade practices are "perceived" to be grossly unfair by either party.

-US-Canadian trade facts (dated a couple of years):
http://www.buyusa.gov/canada/en/traderelationsusacanada.html

-US-Canadian trade balances
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html#2009

Contrast that with other trading partners
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2009

(All above references are USG figures.

-The stark reality is that if it is considered legal and allowable, any US-based, multi-national corporation, which under US law, has the same rights and privileges as human persons(and then some), will relocate plants and factories to countries with the lowest labor (and other) costs in order to maximize profits. If not feasible, low cost labor will be imported, if it can be done.

-No life, liberty or pursuit of happiness is safe as long as Congress is in session (-Mark Twain?).

Have a safe week.

Dave A.

Mcruff
11-01-2009, 02:48 PM
Only if you still have the facilities / machinery and the skill set to run it.

.
Sorry John this is bull, the chinese had none of this and the rest of the world sent it to them anyway.

Me personally, I have always treated Canada as family when it comes to trade and the quality of there products is on par with true US made stuff. I have no problem trading with most of Europe, they generally make good quality products and follow decent trade practices. The Asian countries have never practiced good trade. Most all of the stuff that has been sent to China has not decreased in price but the quality has suffered terribly. Of all my mechanics tools 95% of them were and are made in the US. My machinist tools, about 85% are American made. If I need something once I might go to harbor freight, if I'm gonna use it over and over its gonna be good quality period, if I can find American or Canadian made that comes 1st, if I can't find it there, then European it is. If I can't find it then I go directly to Craigslist or Ebay and find quality used. I refuse to buy the newer crap from China. When I found out about Vise grips, I went and bought 5 new sets. I just bought a set of Snap on screwdrivers that were American made (I asked) only because I couldn't find screwdrivers that were a little cheaper that weren't made in China.

I have watched as 100's of people I know have lost there jobs to China in the last 10 years. So I try to do my part now. Heck the German company I work for has started to buy the tooling from the country that the plant is in. American plants get American or Canadian tooling, the German plants get German tooling, the plants in the UK get tooling from the UK. The higher ups have decided thats the best way to run the company and its good for them publicly as well as financially.

I do most of this now out of my own good conscious. Knowing that the job I save may be a friends.

darryl
11-01-2009, 03:11 PM
Usa made at usa prices- I went to a local store a cupple weeks back to buy a 3mm tap. They had one, chinese made, hss, and looked ok but not quality. They wanted $11 for it. I said at that price you can f---in keep it. Nicely, of course.

I was trying to get one locally- then I made a call and found one about a 20 minute bike ride away. It was a nice day, so off I went. Got a quality, made in usa, brand name, for $4.

This story about the cost of a quality tool is an exception, except to say that yes, there are those businesses who are buying cheap crap and expecting high dollar for it. Maybe that's their policy, thinking it will help them stay in business, maybe they're trying to balance the teetertotter of 'how much can we gouge them for before they won't shop here anymore'- as far as I'm concerned, they can go out of business. Of course, many times the business is hurting and needs a customer base willing to spend the proper dollar for the reasonable quality thing in order to survive.

I would buy locally if I could find it, firstly, secondly if I could fit it into the budget, and thirdly if it wasn't a blatant ripoff. For me, beyond the ripoff, the real rub is- if I'm not working or not making a good wage, then in general I can't afford the more expensive product. If it was for work use, that's another story- you can't afford to not have good tooling. The message here is simple- to our governments, to our employers- if we can't afford our locally made products, you can't count on us to support our local industries.

I see the whole story in spades right now where I work- the crew is well paid, and everyone pulls together and gives a good effort. We've been doing well, even in the face of the latest recession. Now there's been a change of ownership, and everyone can see that the new policies aren't going to support the flow we had before. Nobody is happy, and you can imagine what that's going to do to productivity. Now management will see that they can't afford our current wages- I don't want to think about this anymore. I guess we've all been lucky so far ( me for only the last couple months or so) to have had a good employer who cares about the workers and treats them fairly and with respect. We have actually been buying our own products so far, since we can afford it. Don't know what the future here is going to be-

lazlo
11-01-2009, 03:14 PM
-US-Canadian trade balances
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c1220.html#2009

Contrast that with [China]
http://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html#2009

(All above references are USG figures.

Very interesting data. That says the US imports about 75% as much from Canada as we do from China (~$180 Billion), but we export 3 times the amount of goods to Canada as China.

So we have a 4.5X trade imbalance with China, but close to parity (10% imbalance) with Canada.

In other words, we import roughly the same amount from Canada and China, but export virtually nothing to China.

terry_g
11-01-2009, 03:21 PM
A couple weeks ago I stopped for a train at a crossing I counted 118 containers heading to the new Prince Rupert B.C. container terminal. I doubt that they were empty maybe full of money on it's way to China.

Terry

dp
11-01-2009, 03:23 PM
Very interesting data. That says the US imports has about 75% as much from Canada as we do from China (~$180 Billion), but we export 3 times the amount of goods to Canada as China.

So we have a 4.5X trade imbalance with China, but close to parity (10% imbalance) with Canada.

In other words, we import roughly the same amount from Canada and China, but export virtual nothing to China.

Does that mean China has over-capacity in finished goods and doesn't need our stuff, or that China has found our costs too high and buys stuff from Mexico, Brazil, Japan, Taiwan, and Korea, or that Canada sells us a lot of natural gas and logs and we sell them a lot of, of... well, something. Fertilizer, I'd guess.

Those links only tell us if we are in the red or black, not what we're buying or selling.

The links also don't mention that China is doing this with far more trading partners than the US. Here's what it tells me - The Chinese mean to own the finished goods market for as long as we're pleased to give it to them.

lazlo
11-01-2009, 03:26 PM
The VIN number on my Tundra indicates it was "made" in the US. On closer evaluation many of the drive train parts, etc, were "made" in Japan.

When we were car shopping last year, the cars from the various manufacturers were itemized to a decimal point to country of manufacture, and no car (either from the Big 3 or from Japan) was 100% made anywhere. The dealer sticker is required to show the percentage parts breakdown by country.

The American Automobile Labeling Act (AALA) requires that in order for a car to be marked Made In USA, it must be assembled in the US, and at least 75% of the parts content must be from the US or Canada. Apparently the Canadian content was pushed by the Big 3, because they had a lot of parts made in Canada.

So according to the AALA listings, the Toyota Tundra is 80% US/Canadian, and 20% Japanese. That's by "value" of the parts -- I don't know who determines the value:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/USMadeCars.png

philbur
11-01-2009, 04:06 PM
The average Chinese worker makes $100 per month the average western world worker makes $100 a day. Unless we learn how to make what he can't we're toast. Putting up a wall doesn't work in the long run, look at the USSR, you just get left behind. It's survival of the fittest, something the USA use to be good at. Now it thinks its top dog standard of living is a god given right. History will prove differently. Adapt or die.

Phil:)

goose
11-01-2009, 04:40 PM
Very interesting data. That says the US imports about 75% as much from Canada as we do from China (~$180 Billion), but we export 3 times the amount of goods to Canada as China.

So we have a 4.5X trade imbalance with China, but close to parity (10% imbalance) with Canada.

In other words, we import roughly the same amount from Canada and China, but export virtually nothing to China.


What we should be aware of, and what makes the example of Canada further different from China, everytime a dollar leaves the US in exchange for a consumable, (final consumer goods), that's not only a dollar lost, but also a potential other dollar lost in domestic business.

It's one thing to import $100 bazillion in product direct to the consumer, and never to see that money again; and another thing to import $100 bazillion in raw material, (timber, textiles, plastic pellets, etc) and generate some further wealth and jobs through comsumer goods manufactured domestically.

Take, for instance, Melamine, we could have imported it directly and put in our pet food by ourselves, instead of paying the Chinese to do that.



Gary

Evan
11-01-2009, 05:11 PM
I just bought a set of Snap on screwdrivers that were American made (I asked) only because I couldn't find screwdrivers that were a little cheaper that weren't made in China.


http://ixian.ca/pics6/snapon.gif

deeman
11-01-2009, 05:13 PM
John Stevenson
Only if you still have the facilities / machinery and the skill set to run it.


Very correct about the large machinery like forges and foundries John...we`ve seen them scrapped and the foundries shut down and the equipment sent out to be recycled...they will never make big equipment like this on this side of the pond again in my lifetime.If the US stops buying from China ...who will keep servicing the debt...it is a huge Ponzi scheme...if the Chinese stop buying T Bills the whole thing comes crashing down.If they continue to buy them you devalue the greenback and pay them back in worthless dollars and suffer the consequences of massive inflation..hmmm there are no good alternatives.

Evan
11-01-2009, 05:15 PM
Take, for instance, Melamine, we could have imported it directly and put in our pet food by ourselves, instead of paying the Chinese to do that.


The US makes and sells melamine as an animal feed additive. It's for export only.

lazlo
11-01-2009, 05:22 PM
The US makes and sells melamine as an animal feed additive. It's for export only.

Chinese dairy giant recalls milk powder after baby death
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/12/china

Batch of formula tainted with melamine discovered after hospitals report 59 cases of kidney stones in infants.

Why was melamine added into milk and powdered infant formula?

In China, where adulteration has occurred, water has been added to raw milk to increase its volume. As a result of this dilution the milk has a lower protein concentration. Companies using the milk for further production (e.g. of powdered infant formula) normally check the protein level through a test measuring nitrogen content. The addition of melamine increases the nitrogen content of the milk and therefore its apparent protein content.

Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.

http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/subjects/m/melamine/index.html

lazlo
11-01-2009, 05:23 PM
Filler in Animal Feed Is Open Secret in China
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/worldbusiness/30food.html

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2007/04/30/business/30food-600.jpg

ZHANGQIU, China, April 28 — As American food safety regulators head to China to investigate how a chemical made from coal found its way into pet food that killed dogs and cats in the United States, workers in this heavily polluted northern city openly admit that the substance is routinely added to animal feed as a fake protein.

The Shandong Mingshui Great Chemical Company makes a chemical called melamine and sometimes sells melamine scrap to other producers who use it to make animal feed.

For years, producers of animal feed all over China have secretly supplemented their feed with the substance, called melamine, a cheap additive that looks like protein in tests, even though it does not provide any nutritional benefits, according to melamine scrap traders and agricultural workers here.

Here at the Shandong Mingshui Great Chemical Group factory, huge boiler vats are turning coal into melamine, which is then used to create plastics and fertilizer. But the leftover melamine scrap, golf ball-size chunks of white rock, is sometimes being sold to local agricultural entrepreneurs, who say they mix a powdered form of the scrap into animal feed to deceive those who raise animals into thinking they are buying feed that is high in protein.

In recent years, for instance, China’s food safety scandals have involved everything from fake baby milk formulas and soy sauce made from human hair to instances where cuttlefish were soaked in calligraphy ink to improve their color and eels were fed contraceptive pills to make them grow long and slim.

Tony Ennis
11-01-2009, 05:33 PM
Remember that it is devilishly hard to get a manufacturing plant (like a foundry) zoned in the US. The green zealots will work for years to stop you. The most powerful force in the US is a lawyer who works for cheap.

Every time a plant closes, it is gone forever. And competition against the 3rd world doesn't involve a level playing field. They have no environmental standards, no green lawyers, no OSHA, etc.

Evan
11-01-2009, 05:38 PM
Melamine is used around the world as a food supplement for animals, especially cattle. There are a number of US patents on it specifically for that purpose.

RUMINANT FEED COMPOSITION United States Patent 3653909

It used to be legal in the US until fairly recently and was still being practised in the making of fish feed until 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/business/31food.html

Melamine isn't particularly toxic. It isn't controlled, it has no enviromental effects (doesn't kill fish or insects), the LD50 for rats is around 3 to 4 GRAMS per kilo. There are no whimis requirements, no labelling requirements and no transportation requirements. You don't need a license to make, buy or sell it. The breakdown products are non toxic and it isn't listed as a poison or bad actor chemical. Melamine is a non issue except if fed in large quantities over a long period of time to infants as it will cause liver and kidney problems eventually.

The hype over melamine is nothing more that that. Hyperbolic statements with no basis in science.

lazlo
11-01-2009, 05:42 PM
competition against the 3rd world doesn't involve a level playing field. They have no environmental standards, no green lawyers, no OSHA, etc.

There was an sickening episode in last week's 60 Minutes about the billion dollar black market trading in computer electronics recycling to China.

Basically, Western countries are shipping millions of tons of industrial waste to Guiyi, China, where peasants (including children) wallow in appalling conditions hand-melting components off old circuit boards over a wood fire, breaking open CRT tubes with hammers, and separating precious metals from hand-crushed slurry by stiring a toxic witch's brew over a wood fired cauldron. The waste is dumped directly into a river which is used for washing, bathing and drinking water.

Guiyi is basically a vast toxic dump several miles in diameter, saturated with heavy metals, pvcs, et al.

Not a business we want to be competitive in...

As 60 Minutes was filming, a mixture of the Tong (Chinese Mafia) and local government officials physically attacked the 60 Minutes crew.

You can watch excerpts here:

http://gizmodo.com/5079133/60-minutes-reporter-investigates-chinas-e+waste-pits-gets-attacked

Mcruff
11-01-2009, 05:53 PM
http://ixian.ca/pics6/snapon.gif

Oh, I knew that Snap on made stuff in China, thats why I specifically asked about the ones I bought.

lazlo
11-01-2009, 05:58 PM
Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.
It used to be legal in the US until fairly recently and was still being practised in the making of fish feed until 2007.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/business/31food.html

Evan, that's a hilarious article!

It confirms that addition of melamine into food or animal feed is illegal. The article is about a sting operation catching a Canadian company, Tembec BTLSR, with a factory in Toledo, Ohio doing the same thing the Chinese were: stretching the supply by spiking the nitrogen content on the chemical assay used for quality assurance with melamine :D




"Yesterday, federal officials announced that a manufacturing plant in Ohio was using the same banned substance, melamine, to make binding agents that ended up in feed for farmed fish, shrimp and livestock.

The problem surfaced after a distributor, concerned about what was in its feed binders after the reports from China, sent the product to a private laboratory for testing.

The melamine was used by Tembec BTLSR, a Canadian forest products company with a small chemical plant in Toledo, to make binding agents that keep pellets of animal feed together, said Dr. David Acheson, assistant commissioner for food protection at the Food and Drug Administration.

Melamine is not permitted in food or pet food products. In the last few months, pet food contaminated with melamine, all traced back to China, sickened or killed thousands of pets in the United States.

The investigation began on May 18 when Uniscope alerted the agency that it had discovered melamine in the testing. Dr. Acheson said that the investigation was in its early stages and that some questions remained unanswered, like how long Tembec had used melamine in its products and the extent of the contamination.

“What Tembec knew, didn’t know, what their activities were, is part of the investigation,” Dr. Acheson said, at a news conference. Earlier, he said, “It’s hard to believe that a manufacturer of pet food would not know about this.”

Evan
11-01-2009, 06:05 PM
Of course it's illegal, in the US. You can't blame something for a problem and then not be seen to do something about it. :rolleyes:

John Stevenson
11-01-2009, 06:14 PM
We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

What can you make out of a lawyer ? :rolleyes:

.

Evan
11-01-2009, 06:36 PM
Landfill? A breakwater? Fertilizer?

HSS
11-01-2009, 07:48 PM
We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

What can you make out of a lawyer ? :rolleyes:

.


A politician.:D

Paul R
11-01-2009, 10:30 PM
There are several reasons I don't buy Chinese products:

1) China does not enforce intellectual property rights laws to the same extent that Western countries do. The result is that counterfeiting is common, and the designs that some honest engineer (often an American) has worked on get stolen.
2) China does not have the same environmental standards that most developed countries have, so they can produce more cheaply than those of us burdened with emissions regulations.
3) China does not have the same stringent worker safety laws (i.e., OSHA) that Western countries do, so they sacrifice worker health for lwo cost production.
4) It is wasteful to ship disposable products half way around the world, both in terms of the energy required to ship and the wasted energy in remanufacturing disposable junk.

In my mind, it is hypocritical for us as Americans to say that worker safety, environmental performance, and intellectual property are of great importance, and then turn our backs on all of these ideals just to buy something from China because it's cheaper.

If it is made in China, I just say "No thanks."

J Tiers
11-01-2009, 10:35 PM
ALL the shop classes around here are gone. the community colleges have cleared out shop areas to put in 'web design" classrooms, etc.

There is a concerted and rather inconsistent desire on the part of the enviro-nazis to "let others have the mess", and do NO manufacturing here. I don't know where they expect to get the money to buy stuff from others with.

As for trade wars etc, you get LITERAL trade wars, with shooting, when the trade imbalance becomes so one-sided.

the chinese trade is an example. The chinese deliberately pegged the yuan so that it would ALWAYS be cheap to buy from china. this was a government policy, designed to do what it did, which is suck the industry out of other countries, but especially the US.

Once the damage is done, they allowed it to float a bit, but not so far as to endanger their one-sided trade.

One-sided trade is not sustainable, and when it is created in a way calculated to destroy another country, as in the case of china and the US, it is a literal war, not economics. Which is worse, a tariff trade war creating a bad economy, or the existing trade war creating a bad economy AND a strategic problem?


Of course it's illegal, in the US. You can't blame something for a problem and then not be seen to do something about it. :rolleyes:

I am completely not understanding why you are DEFENDING a practice which is essentially a cheat. It is completely obvious to any thinking person that adding a non-nutritive substance to food for the purpose of cheating the quality tests is only manufacturing a counterfeit.

So you think food should be counterfeited? This is good how?

Perhaps some of the fake antibiotics and other medicines which are also made in china should be imported to Canada so that you and yours can take them and stay sick?

What are people THINKING?

The idea is bad no matter WHAT flag is on the pole out front.

However, besides melamine, and poisonous cough syrup, poisonous toothpaste, fake antibiotics, chinese companies also are known to water down milk and do other lovely things as well, not to mention considering worker lives cheap and safety expensive, and polluting the landscape like crazy..

Now, much the same sort of things were done right here in the USA, 130 years ago during the time when industry was rising, and there were no laws against doing that. Morphine was widely available, and who needed crack when popular drinks had cocaine in them?

I notice that changed since.

Coincidentally, china has no particularly well enforced laws on that sort of thing,perhaps china should consider a change also.

Nicad
11-01-2009, 10:57 PM
What's a shame is if you had wanted to tour the offices of law firms,insurance providers,and government you wouldn't had to even leave home since they are so plentiful.

There was a war between the productive class and the un-productive class and the un-productive won.
That is the quote of the Day!!Couldn't agree more. Consumers can turn it around, but it will be tough. Innovation is the only solution IMHO, and that is a Global race now.

Tony Ennis
11-01-2009, 11:12 PM
Consumers can turn it around, but it will be tough. Innovation is the only solution IMHO, and that is a Global race now.

Um, turn WHAT around? The ratchet wheel has clicked. There is no going backwards. Heavy industry and manufacturing is leaving the US and won't return until it is cheaper to build it here.

I feel this was inevitable. Greed and foolishness have made the process nearly immediate causing dramatic upheaval. Wise governance would have make it a multi-generational event allowing time for people to adjust.

J Tiers
11-02-2009, 12:05 AM
I'm not sure it is that way, quite yet. Shipping costs really turned around some businesses, when it started costing 9 grand to move a container from china to US.

With cheap oil again, that probably has swung back.

After carbon caps, it will definitely be that way, since the chinese won't accept any carbon caps that might threaten them. They will have a lock on ALL industry, by international treaty. I kinda have to figure that was the plan all along.

As a 'developing country" (what a &^%$# laugh THAT is) they are somewhat exempt anyway......

gnm109
11-02-2009, 12:15 AM
We ought to be looking at it from a different angle.

What can you make out of a lawyer ? :rolleyes:

.

Please specify...do you mean a barrister or a solicitor? :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solicitor

Evan
11-02-2009, 12:42 AM
I am completely not understanding why you are DEFENDING a practise which is essentially a cheat. It is completely obvious to any thinking person that adding a non-nutritive substance to food for the purpose of cheating the quality tests is only manufacturing a counterfeit.


I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating. It doesn't harm the animal and it helps them gain weight faster. My main point is that it isn't toxic and by itself didn't kill any pets. It's another case of pointing the finger at China in an effort to justify trade sanctions that would otherwise be against the WTO agreements to which the US is a party as well as China since they joined.

It has nothing to do with supporting China as Robert tries to accuse me of. It's about the US and it's trade practises. The US only follows through on it's international agreements when the outcome is entirely favourable to itself. Any time that those agreements are seen to benefit some other country the US reneges on it's obligations. This is a result of government policy that has been dictated by big business. I am very unhappy with how this institutionalized corruption of the democratic process in the USA has affected us here in Williams Lake in general and me and my wife directly.

US political corruption has cost us personally tens of thousands of dollars over the last decade or so, perhaps much more. The Coalition for Fair Lumber Imports in the US is an illegal consortium of companies that effectively tells the Commerce Dept what to do. This is no exaggeration. Over the last decade the US collected duties to the tune of around 5 to 6 billion dollars which was not put in the public general fund. It was collected to be paid directly to the companies that had lobbied the politicians to collect the duties. The duties were repeatedly found to be unjustified in law according to US LAWS as well as being in direct contravention of US agreement on tariff and trade and provisions of the NAFTA treaties to which the US is a party.

The USA eventually exhausted all avenues of appeal while they continued to collect the illegal duties. They then negotiated a deal to repay only some of that money and decided unilaterally to keep 1 billion regardless of the agreements it made. In fact, to this date as far as I know none of that money has been returned.

The US is a poor trading partner and cannot be relied on to uphold any agreements it signs. This is not a reflection on the character of the American people, it's a direct result of a corrupt system of government.

I will point out strongly that this is not just my view on these matters. It is widely held viewpoint of everybody here that has any sort of stake in bilateral trade with the United States. The US is seen as a snake in the grass when it comes to matter of trade.

In case anybody on this forum thinks they can justify the US position in these matters I can provide case after case and point after point both in legal decisions by the US courts themselves and various international bodies that directly indict the US trade practises as well as documented examples of actions taken based on fabricated pretences similar to the melamine and the Chinese drywall scams.

The worst of it is that these actions by a few wealthy elite in the United States have not only directly hurt people here but are also directly responsible in part for the enormous economic collapse in the housing market in the US and the loss of hundreds of thousands of US and Canadian jobs.

Arcane
11-02-2009, 04:22 AM
From what I can find, Schedule IV and Schedule V of the Canadian Feeds Regulations list ingredients that are approved for use in livestock feeds.
Melamine isn't on that list but I have seen reference to it being used as a non-protein nitrogen source. This was known back in 1958, but a study in 1978 was done at the University of Georgia College of Agriculture. In conclusion they said: "Under the conditions of these trials, melamine may not be hydrolized in the rumen at a rate sufficient to promote maximum ruminal protein synthesis and incompletely hydrolized fractions may be absorbed and voided in the urine. These observations would tend to indicate that melamine may not be an acceptable NPN source for ruminants."
In other words, it didn't work as well as other products worked. HERE is the synopsis (http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/abstract/47/6/1338)

"Schedule IV and V of the Feeds Regulations list feed ingredients approved for use in livestock feed in Canada. Schedule IV comprises a range of ingredients such as forages and roughages, energy feeds, protein sources, vitamins, minerals, fermentation products and other miscellaneous products while Schedule V is restricted to flavouring ingredients. Each Schedule is divided into two parts:

Schedule IV part 1 and Schedule V part 1 list ingredients that do not require registration if they meet regulatory safety and labelling standards.

Schedule IV part 2 and Schedule V part 2 list ingredients that must be registered due to safety and/or efficacy concerns."

Schedule IV and Schedule V are here (http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/SOR-83-593/page-13.html#anchorsc:4)

Another website (http://chealth.canoe.ca/channel_section_details.asp?text_id=4929&channel_id=44&relation_id=48473) says "In Canada melamine is not allowed to be added into any human or animal foods."
Apparently Melamine isn't allowed in Canada as a livestock feed and it doesn't appear useful as a dietary non protein nitrogen feed supplement. However, it has been used as a binding agent to keep pellets of animal feed together. Story here (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/31/business/worldbusiness/31iht-food.1.5940626.html?_r=1)

Evan
11-02-2009, 05:26 AM
Hmm. I am not sure what is the point is of your post but one thing that the study on the effectiveness of melamine left out was the cost effectiveness. While it may be inferior to cottonseed meal or urea it is much cheaper as a process residual. That is why it is used still in many countries.

Urea is allowed in the US and Canada as a feed supplement. Melamine is merely dehydrated urea. Urea is the cause of gout in humans as it crystalizes at temperatures just below normal body temperature. These crystals damage the tissues in the joints of the extremeties such as feet and hands. This action is identical to the crystalization of melamine and for good reason since too much urea in a diet will cause similar consequences. This is a common cause of urinary problems in cats.

Tony Ennis
11-02-2009, 08:09 AM
since the chinese won't accept any carbon caps that might threaten them.

I believe India was also excluded from the worst of Kyoto.

lazlo
11-02-2009, 08:28 AM
Addition of melamine into food is not approved by the FAO/WHO Codex Alimentarius (food standard commission), or by any national authorities.
I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating.

As I've posted several times, Melamine is a banned substance in food or feed in all national authorities, including China.

You keep quoting the 1958 melamine patent in the Wikpedia entry for melamine, but you conveniently leave out the conclusion:


"Surplus melamine has been an adulterant for feedstock and milk in mainland China for several years now because it can make diluted or poor quality material appear to be higher in protein content by elevating the total nitrogen content detected by some simple protein tests. Actions taken in 2008 by the Government of China has reduced the practice of adulteration, with the goal of eliminating it. Court trials began in December 2008 for six people linked to the scandal and ended in January 2009 with two of the convicts being sentenced to death."


Toxicity

Melamine is described as being "Harmful if swallowed, inhaled or absorbed through the skin. Chronic exposure may cause cancer or reproductive damage. Eye, skin and respiratory irritant.”

U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) scientists explained that when melamine and cyanuric acid are absorbed into the bloodstream, they concentrate and interact in the urine-filled renal microtubules, then crystallize and form large numbers of round, yellow crystals, which in turn block and damage the renal cells that line the tubes, causing the kidneys to malfunction.

Not surprisingly, kidney stones are what killed the Chinese infants with the melamine-spiked baby formula, and the tens of thousands of pets worldwide in the melamine-spiked pet food.


It has nothing to do with supporting China as Robert tries to accuse me of.

And yet you irrationally refuse to admit the China babies that died from melamine poisoning (even though that was the Communist Government's conclusion), in addition to tens of thousands of pets. You vehemently defend China's intense Internet censorship, and claim that public execution of bloggers and protesters are a rare occurrence. And then, of course, there's the Chinese drywall.

You should just move over there Evan -- you'll be a lot happier there :rolleyes:

Evan
11-02-2009, 08:39 AM
You keep quoting the 1958 melamine patent in the Wikpedia entry for melamine, but you conveniently leave out the conclusion:

"Surplus melamine has been an adulterant for feedstock and milk in mainland China for several years now because it can make diluted or poor quality material appear to be higher in protein content by elevating the total nitrogen content detected by some simple protein tests. Actions taken in 2008 by the Government of China has reduced the practice of adulteration, with the goal of eliminating it. Court trials began in December 2008 for six people linked to the scandal and ended in January 2009 with two of the convicts being sentenced to death."


Huh? I haven't quoted any patent. Nor do I use Wikepedia as a source of information, unlike you. It can't be trusted.


And yet you irrationally refuse to admit the China babies that died from melamine poisoning (even though that was the Communist Government's conclusion), in addition to tens of thousands of pets. You vehemently defend China's intense Internet censorship, and claim that public execution of bloggers and protesters are a rare occurrence. And then, of course, there's the Chinese drywall.


You are a pathological liar.

lazlo
11-02-2009, 08:47 AM
Huh? I haven't quoted any patent. Nor do I use Wikepedia as a source of information, unlike you. It can't be trusted.

You are a pathological liar.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/nutter.gif

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=482407&postcount=35

Melamine is used around the world as a food supplement for animals, especially cattle. There are a number of US patents on it specifically for that purpose.

RUMINANT FEED COMPOSITION United States Patent 3653909

Which, of course, is from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine

"Melamine use as non-protein nitrogen (NPN) for cattle was described in a 1958 patent."

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:02 AM
Which, of course, is from:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melamine


No it isn't. You didn't look it up. The patent number I quoted is a corporate patent from 1972 owned by Allied Chemical Corp. I don't use Wikipedia. I found it at the USPTO.

You are once again destroying your own credibility.

Further:


Melamine (1,3,5-triazine-2,4,6-triamine) is a very useful organic trimer of cyanide, with the formula C3H6N6. It is used in the resins of many glues, plastics, as a plastic pigment and in some inks. It is relatively non-toxic (with a similar lethal dose as table salt), and was for a time considered as a nitrogen supplement for livestock. Waste melamine is still given to livestock in some areas, a practice which sparked a media frenzy in the United States over melamine contamination of human food supplies and animal fodder. As a result, interest in melamine testing procedures and equipment has skyrocketed in recent months.

The FDA has never judged melamine contamination to be particularly dangerous, as the substance is very non-toxic. Nevertheless, there are testing and quality control requirements placed on all foods in the United States, and as melamine is considered a toxin, these apply to melamine contamination too. There has been some speculation that the 2007 scare was a largely political affair, and that the threat of melamine contamination has been immensely over stated.

According to industry insiders, it is likely that ongoing FDA melamine testing will show that contamination is more widespread than was previously known, and about as harmless as previously thought. No human has become ill as a result of the 2007 melamine contamination. Acute melamine poisoning can result in kidney and reproductive failure.

https://www.midwestlabs.com/store/home.php
http://ezinearticles.com/?Melamine-Toxicity-Testing---Practical-or-Political,-Its-Here-to-Stay?&id=591102

lazlo
11-02-2009, 09:10 AM
Further:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Melamine-T...tay?&id=591102

As usual, you Google an obscure link that disagrees with your point:


"Interest in melamine testing has skyrocketed with the recent scares in the United States after pork and chicken were given contaminated feed imported from China, which was in turn consumed by pets and humans. The levels of melamine and the waste chemicals it is often associated with were so extreme that some estimates put the number of domestic family pet deaths over 1000, with many more casualties. With unprecedented scrutiny on this toxin in food sources, producers would be well-advised to contract the services of a drug testing laboratory or veterinary hospital if operators have any doubts at all."

So are you still denying that melamine was the cause of the Chinese infant deaths, and the thousands of pet deaths, even though it is WHO and the Chinese government's official cause?

Do you agree that melamine is a banned food substance by all national authorities, including China?

J Tiers
11-02-2009, 09:16 AM
I am not defending the practise of adding it to food. How did you get that idea? It is used as a feed supplement for cattle and other animals because it is a cheap source of nitrogen used to synthesize protein. It isn't cheating. It doesn't harm the animal and it helps them gain weight faster. My main point is that it isn't toxic and by itself didn't kill any pets. It's another case of pointing the finger at China in an effort to justify trade sanctions that would otherwise be against the WTO agreements to which the US is a party as well as China since they joined.



if there is a non-nutritive substance which is ONLY added to food to raise the apparent (but not real) protein content, it is a cheat. a counterfeit. pretty much the same thing as watered milk with white pigment added, or fake cancer drugs, fake antibiotics, etc.

As for your defense of china, I don't seem to be the only one who gets that impression from your postings. I suggest that if youy don't INTEND to be entirely one-sided, that perhaps you should not make your posts appear entirely one-sided.

The problem with the WTO is that it assumes that every country is acting the same way, honorably. Of course this is not true. Some countries, and china is the major one, have no intention of bringing their laws up to international standards regard ing intellectual property, etc, until they have achieved their goals. Like many other devious countries, they stall and talk, then do not act, then talk and stall over minor points, block this, stall that, and talk and stall, meanwhile getting to the point they want to arrive at anyway.

once there, it is already done, a moot point, and there is nothing to be done about it by more talk. That was the goal, and it is so easy to accomplish with organizations whose "teeth" do not apply to you.

The UN, and the WTO are, in the US, widely and to a great extent correctly, seen as complicit in this.

Both will, talk forever, and as long as "both sides are talking" absolutely nothing will be done. Not that china would ACCEPT a sanction of penalty.... Why should they? They have the upper hand to a considerable extent, and don't need to pay the slightest attention, beyond more talking and stalling and talking and stalling.

The result of this is that at present, if you do not have an operation in china, you are not in business, and nobody will pay any attention to you as far as mass production.

And the chinese will take your product, copy it to the last detail, including the logo and internal details, and sell it. Don't even TRY to tell me that doesn't happen, I have seen the product of my former employer copied totally, and sold in china and all over Asia as ours.... WE could tell it was not ours, but proving that in court might have been a tough job. it was not a good copy, the product didn't get tested well, and our reputation was trash in Asia after that started. We couldn't sell a product over there at all, but we had sold millions of dollars of product before that.

So, Evan, it is KNOWN that the chinese, with the tacit, winking complicity of at least local government, copy, adulterate food, make fake medicine, etc. Not ALL chinese, but china is a hotbed of that activity.

As for pet food, same for drywall, etc. Some chinese products have had certain effects that other products made here or even in china, did not.

it isn't really a direct issue to demand proof of the exact and detailed mechanism in each and every case, and to say there is NO PROBLEM until the exact cause is found..

"Drink this and you will die", as an empirically proven result, does NOT require "proof". I will leave that to you. YOU may say it is perfectly safe until the mechanism is proven. Go ahead and drink anyway. Others will take over for you when you are gone.

No, we don't have such problems in any noticeable quantity with German, British, Brazilian, Namibian, or Mexican products. We have these problems predominately with CHINESE products

Why would a supposedly rational being even wonder why chinese products are viewed with a jaundiced eye?

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:20 AM
As usual, you Google an obscure link that disagrees with your point:

Hardly. That is a testing lab with a vested interest in testing for melamine yet they still describe it as no more toxic than table salt.


So are you still denying that melamine was the cause of the Chinese infant deaths, and the thousands of pet deaths, even though it is WHO and the Chinese government's official cause?


I haven't said anything about the Chinese formula contamination. You have. repeatedly, even though it has nothing to do with the topic of cattle feed or pet food. You cannot feed infants most foods and a very wide variety of ordinary foods and additives are toxic to infants.

As for pet deaths, melamine alone does not kill pets. That has been well established. The reason for that is that it is essentially non toxic.


Do you agree that melamine is a banned food substance by all national authorities, including China?

It is now. I haven't said anything about using it in human food. You have.

I repeat, you are a pathological liar.

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:22 AM
As for your defense of china, I don't seem to be the only one who gets that impression from your postings. I suggest that if youy don't INTEND to be entirely one-sided, that perhaps you should not make your posts appear entirely one-sided.


Try to find a quote from what I have written where I defend China.

PTSideshow
11-02-2009, 09:48 AM
You will be surprised at what is considered made in the USA. As the often cited Harley parts clearly stamped on the package Made in the USA, with the made in China showing on the part. Most of the value added in sin the name and packaging.

So it qualifies as made in the USA!

Consumer Alert: FTC Explains ‘Made in USA’ Standard To Confirm Consumer Confidence
Text (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt021.shtm)
PDF (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/consumer/alerts/alt021.pdf)

Business Guide: Complying with the Made In USA Standard
Text (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm)
PDF (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.pdf)

Business Alert: Selling 'American-Made' Products? What Businesses Need to Know About Making Made in USA Claims
Text (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/alerts/alt101.shtm)
PDF (http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/alerts/alt101.pdf)
:eek:

ckelloug
11-02-2009, 10:59 AM
To make an actual on topic comment, I have been working with an Italian on some machine tool related design.

One of the things I did was to look at the Tariffs on machine tools. There are Tariffs of what I remember to be about 15% on CNC machinery made in Europe. There are no such tariffs on Chinese goods. To me, this has the effect of supporting Chinese payscales and policies at the expense of the U.S. and rest of the developed world. One would think we would treat those in Europe better as supporting europe with living wages supports our own cause.

In my view, the Chinese own the U.S. at this point due to the huge national debt and the current budget deficit. If the U.S. were to try to impose any sort of restrictions on China that they didn't approve, China would simply stop buying treasury securities and our economy would be finished. I am guessing when the Chinese push for the world to stop using the dollar as a reserve currency succeeds, that will be the end for the U.S. economically. They will have beaten us without firing a shot. The U.S. needs a strong military, but the expensive military adventures we are involved in now are a smokescreen allowing our true enemies to conquer this nation unopposed via financial means.

--Cameron

lazlo
11-02-2009, 11:14 AM
In my view, the Chinese own the U.S. at this point due to the huge national debt and the current budget deficit. If the U.S. were to try to impose any sort of restrictions on China that they didn't approve, China would simply stop buying treasury securities and our economy would be finished. I am guessing when the Chinese push for the world to stop using the dollar as a reserve currency succeeds, that will be the end for the U.S. economically. They will have beaten us in a war we entered: entered on their side that is, not ours.

The treasury debt is definitely a huge issue of our own making, but China exploiting peasants to provide a global sink hole for cheap labor is a world-wide problem: they've hollowed-out the heavy industry in the US, Canada, England, Australia, Germany...

The Tianjin Co. Ltd, that manufactured the tainted drywall, is a subsidiary of the Knauf Plasterboard GmbH, a German company. Record and Sheffield Steel were outsourced to China, and then went out of business. SKF is outsourcing bearings to Asia. It's the same story in every major industrialized nation.

But remember that the Chinese economy is built around making cheap copies of stuff. They need innovative products to copy, and that innovation isn't available domestically.

Evan
11-02-2009, 12:26 PM
But remember that the Chinese economy is built around making cheap copies of stuff. They need innovative products to copy, and that innovation isn't available domestically.

No, it isn't and it isn't even especially dependent on trade with the US.

You need to study the real facts.




Exports:
Not China's Engine of Growth

Skeptics about China's growth prospects most
frequently question the sustainability of its
export performance. In recent years, its exports
and trade surplus have ballooned, leading to
the common assumption that its growth is
export-led and that limited global markets
will curtail its expansion sooner rather than
later. But this assumption is not supported by
the data on the sources of Chinese growth,
which are overwhelmingly domestic.
In fact, a detailed study of each of Chinas
?ve macroeconomic booms and slowdowns
since 1978 reveals that domestic shifts in
investment and consumption have been
responsible for Chinas growth (table 1). Even
in recent years, the contributions to growth
from the countrys trade surplus have had sec-
ondary importance.


The full report here:

China’s Economic Rise—Fact and Fiction
Albert Keidel, Michael Swaine, Stephen Voth , Gregory Foster , Harry Harding
Wednesday, July 09, 2008 – Washington, D.C.

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/events/?fa=eventDetail&id=1151

goose
11-02-2009, 12:34 PM
No, it isn't and it isn't even especially dependent on trade with the US.




China's explosive growth is the result of one thing - A generation ago the Chinese middle class consisted of people who lived in shanties and rode to work on a bicycle.

When your GDP is a penny, it's pretty easy to double it.

Gary

Evan
11-02-2009, 12:44 PM
It has been doubled many times. China is the largest market for luxury automobiles in the world. You should read the report.

bob_s
11-02-2009, 12:55 PM
Recently I had to replace the water pump in my venerable 1984 Nissan. The first replacement was a remanufactured unit from FENCO (Ontario based).The main seal leaked even worse than the 25 year old pump it was to replace.

The second unit came from Cardone (US based rebuilder). It came with a folded and mangled gasket.

The last and finally working unit came from ParAut out of Japan.

The first two units are a testament to the total lack of workmanship and attention to quality control that is rampant in the North American auto industry. All said and done is that workers only want to put in the time for the $XX per hour and the he-double-toothpicks with what they are producing.

goose
11-02-2009, 03:18 PM
It has been doubled many times.


You clearly miss the point, that being that no economy can double in growth forever.



China is the largest market for luxury automobiles in the world. You should read the report.

???? Yeah, that's interesting, and relevance ?


Gary

Evan
11-02-2009, 04:00 PM
You clearly miss the point, that being that no economy can double in growth forever.


Of course not. The GDP of China was never a "penny" though. The economic policies of the central government have been exceptionally successful and have been a source of embarrassment to free market economists. Central control has always been assumed to be a death sentence for prosperity and the Soviet Union is held as an example.

My point is that China isn't solely or even mostly dependent on it's trading relationship with the USA. Many in the US seem to think that all actions taken by the government in China are aimed at tearing down the economic structure of the US in a form of economic warfare. That just isn't true. China is doing what they do in spite of the US, not because they are making every economic decision with the US as some sort of target. The government of the US is constantly looking for a scapegoat on which to blame it's economic failings and the obvious target is China because of the widely held perception in the US that China is an economic enemy.

That is a ludicrous and self centred misconception that the US government depends on to lead the general population of the US into believing that the problems of the US have an exterior cause. It is not held by the people with the money. One does not make massive investments in the infrastructure and manufacturing capability of one's economic enemy. The only reason to do so is the underpinning of American values: Profit is King and anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough.

It turns out that those values are also held by the Chinese and they are proving to be extremely industrious in pursuing that same philosophy. It isn't a race or a war but the Chinese are never going to pass up such an opportunity when it is handed to them on a greenback lined platter.

Ries
11-02-2009, 04:06 PM
Of course, no economy can double forever.

But right now, China has moved out of being based on Exports, solely.

It is, as Evan points out, a viable economy in its own right, and it makes a LOT of stuff for internal consumption, as well as being the biggest IMPORTER of all kinds of stuff, including many, many, luxury goods.

China currently is a bigger market for automobiles and trucks than the USA. We are now number 2.
They are the number 1 or 2 markets, worldwide, for Rolls Royces, Louis Vuitton, Gucci, Tiffany, and many other luxury brands. They are Number 1 market for Buick, probably will hit Number 1 this year for Cadillac.

They consume FAR more steel in China than they export- as is the case with many of their products. As this happens more and more, their export markets become less and less important to chinese companies. They dont care as much about the US market, because, relatively speaking, we are buying LESS- as we are broke. While they are buying MORE.
of everything.

China buys Billions worth of US made Caterpillar and John Deere and Boeing products every year.
They buy between 100 and 150 US made Haas machine tools every month.
They buy Trumpf and DMG and other high end german machine tools that we, the USA, are too cheap to buy.

While we werent looking, the world changed. The middle class in China, the people who are buying $200,000 condos and new cars and fancy smart phones- its as big as the entire population of the USA. If they double the middle class, which is quite possible, their market would be double ours, actually more, because we have lots of poor working folks who ARENT buying new Cadillac Escalades.

Sure, they still make plenty of cheap crap- but their population is so big they can also make, and import, lots of better stuff as well.

RancherBill
11-02-2009, 04:51 PM
Apparently the Canadian content was pushed by the Big 3, because they had a lot of parts made in Canada.

It is much more than that. Since 1965 the Auto Pact has treated US and Canadian production as the same. The "Auto Pact" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Products_Trade_Agreement) has been around for a long time it is the first 'free trade' type agreement the US and Canada got into.

It created a unified US / Canadian automotive industry.

philbur
11-02-2009, 05:03 PM
The big picture is you can't keep two thirds of the world in poverty in order to maintain your own standard of living. In the end a more productive world will be to the benefit of everybody. Unfortunately some eggs will have to be broken in order to make the omelette. You either try to maintain your privileged niche in the past or you find a new sustainable niche in the future. Go with the flow and learn to swim or drown. Anybody ever heard of the luddites.

Phil:)

lazlo
11-02-2009, 05:19 PM
It is much more than that. Since 1965 the Auto Pact has treated US and Canadian production as the same. The "Auto Pact" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_Products_Trade_Agreement) has been around for a long time it is the first 'free trade' type agreement the US and Canada got into.

Wow, never heard of that! Signed by Lyndon Johnson, no less (who's a legendary figure in Central Texas -- he was the Congressman for Texas's 10th district = Austin).

tattoomike68
11-02-2009, 05:21 PM
The big picture is you can't keep two thirds of the world in poverty in order to maintain your own standard of living. In the end a more productive world will be to the benefit of everybody. Unfortunately some eggs will have to be broken in order to make the omelette. You either try to maintain your privileged niche in the past or you find a new sustainable niche in the future. Go with the flow and learn to swim or drown. Anybody ever heard of the luddites.

Phil:)


USA will kick butt but socialist policy will be a step backwards. (im keeping this short)

goose
11-02-2009, 05:55 PM
Of course not. The GDP of China was never a "penny" though. The economic policies of the central government have been exceptionally successful and have been a source of embarrassment to free market economists.
Your points are good and valid (except for the "anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough" part)

My point, is generally, that no economy can sustain rapid expansion. By the time it's popular to talk about the newest "powerhouse" of economic growth, it's over. So I can't get gaga over China and the they're like amazing crap. Cases in point: Japan, Pacific Rim 1980's (Tiger Economies.) Mexico, mid 1990's; NAFTA, low wages, growing middle class, much the same things said, buy the Peso, buy Mexican IPO's. Now tourists are getting their heads cut off down there. Early 1990's Russia, former eastern block countries, same stuff, different part of the world.


China's got alot of stuff going for them, but alot against them too. Devalued Yuan (either intentional or otherwise) is making them reliant on exports for much of their GDP. (Their GDP has dropped conspicuously during the past year's global recession.) Recalcitrant foreign policy only puts them at odds with the rest of the global community. Corruption is rampant, they're been building so fast in recent years pollution and over building is becoming a problem, (not too impressive an example of central economic policy, especially considering they had our history of mistakes to learn from) Not to mention the high quality stamp of approval on Chinese drywall and baby formula, not too good for return customers.


With "penny" I mean any growth from an economy starting with a minuscule GDP is going to disproportionately compared to other, previously developed countries. As many stocks display stratospheric growth upon initial public offerings which can't be maintained. Google, for instance, I think it'll be a long while, if ever, for that the stock doubles again.. Remember, it was less than 40 years ago Nixon visited China.

Gary

derekm
11-02-2009, 06:03 PM
....The Chinese own the U.S. at this point due to the huge national debt and the current budget deficit. If the U.S. were to try to impose any sort of restrictions on China that they didn't approve, China would simply stop buying treasury securities and our economy would be finished. ..
--Cameron


Hey this tactic ain't new, it been done before ... you should have seen it comin'

see 1947

lazlo
11-02-2009, 06:15 PM
Your points are good and valid (except for the "anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough" part)

Corruption is rampant

All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).

As Deng Xiaoping famously said, "Let some people get rich first". Sucks if you're a peasant.

Evan
11-02-2009, 08:04 PM
Your points are good and valid (except for the "anybody can become a millionaire if they work hard enough" part)


The "become a millionaire" expression isn't of my making. It's the essential part of the "American Dream", a concept that was put in writing by F. Scott Fitzgerald in "The Great Gatsby".

"Anybody can become a millionaire through courage, determination and hard work."



All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).


References?

Tony Ennis
11-02-2009, 08:26 PM
Evan:
The economic policies of the central government have been exceptionally successful and have been a source of embarrassment to free market economists.


Not so fast. A government that doesn't have to obey its own laws, that has no political opposition/watchdogs, that doesn't value human life, that rapes the environment unlike any other, and that sets monetary policy based upon what gives it the most advantage can do amazing things.

In short, so what.

J Tiers
11-02-2009, 08:37 PM
Try to find a quote from what I have written where I defend China.

Its the overall tone and defiant stance that (as far as we can tell by reading your postings) there is nothing wrong with chinese anything until the exact and detailed mechanism of the alleged problem with the material has been exhaustively researched, completely explained, and proven to be the exact and detailed problem in each individual separate case.

YOU are not satisfied with the association of problems exclusively with THAT drywall, or THAT cough syrup, or THAT toothpaste, or THAT pet food.

Oh, no, to satisfy the stalling tactics of Mahmoud AbedinijEvan, the material must be regarded as perfect, totally without faults, and must continue to be used as fast as possible, until the problem with each separate tube, bottle, sheet or whatever has been submitted in quintuplicate to representatives of Mr AbedinijEvan.

bah..... I'll prove nothing..... don't even ask. We can all SEE which way the wind blows, by watching the bamboo.

As for China and its trading "partners"...... The US has been a large consumer market for a long time.

Whether that will be true in future is not at all the point. What IS the point is that china, aided and abetted by certain US corporations, notably Walmart, became THE source of US consumer goods, displacing the US domestic industry, Japanese industry, taiwan industry, Mexican industry, and Korean industry.

Nobody seriously contemplates making anything in volume production for the consumer market in the US now. It would just be pouring money down the drain.

If it is made here, or even in Mexico, Walmart will indignantly REFUSE to buy it, Target may not buy it, Kmart probably won't buy it. After that, you really are hurting, because all that is left are regional chains that are being killed off by Walmart.

In the process a great deal of strategic harm has been caused. And a large number of peripheral industry has been destroyed.

The good points are that china was able to use the US to GET TO the position you others have stated they now have. The US and to a reasonable extent europe, although protectionist buying is still rampant in much of europe. The great unwashed here sees only lower prices, and shiny gew-gaws..... The proles couldn't find china on a map of the world. I know supposedly educated people who can't.

China may not be interested now, but when we stopped buying, the chinese started getting laid off in droves. That suggests a slightly more direct relationship than some attempt to put forth, even when the ripple effect of related economic issues elsewhere are factored in..

It is likely that as a stability measure, the internal market and other markets will be emphasized. Who wouldn't? The chinese were in a position where they wanted foreign exchange, and they got it from us. Sure, now they have it, they don't need any individual market so much.

But they GOT where they are, by selling to the US, and somewhat to europe.

lazlo
11-02-2009, 08:39 PM
References?

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=459865&postcount=45

Almost all of the Chinese billionaires are Communist Party Officials, and/or National People’s Congress delegates (China’s rubber-stamp parliament).
The first Chinese billionaire was “Red capitalist” Rong Yiren, the former China vice-president. His son "Larry" is also a billionaire -- the 6th wealthiest man in China.

The few billionaires who aren't party officials, are from eminent communist party families. Diana Chen, who founded the Pioneer Iron and Metals group (the largest ore company in China) is the granddaughter of Lu Dong, China’s metallurgy minister.


Lu Guanqiu, the CEO of Wanxiang Group, who recently bought Ford's driveline division.

The Chinese government likes to portray him as a peasant worker who worked his way up to riches, but he was a delegate (a member of Parliament) to the 9th, 13th and 14th CPC National People's Congresses

J Tiers
11-02-2009, 08:39 PM
Evan:


Not so fast. A government that................. rapes the environment unlike any other,......................

Wait, don't bring Russia into this......... The chinese can't hold a candle to Russia in pure evil pollution. They produce a lot of volume, but Russia produced really, really bad stuff.

Evan
11-02-2009, 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Evan
References?


http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/sho...5&postcount=45

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazlo
Almost all of the Chinese billionaires are Communist Party Officials, and/or National People’s Congress delegates (China’s rubber-stamp parliament).
The first Chinese billionaire was “Red capitalist” Rong Yiren, the former China vice-president. His son "Larry" is also a billionaire -- the 6th wealthiest man in China.

The few billionaires who aren't party officials, are from eminent communist party families. Diana Chen, who founded the Pioneer Iron and Metals group (the largest ore company in China) is the granddaughter of Lu Dong, China’s metallurgy minister.



Quote:
Originally Posted by lazlo
Lu Guanqiu, the CEO of Wanxiang Group, who recently bought Ford's driveline division.

The Chinese government likes to portray him as a peasant worker who worked his way up to riches, but he was a delegate (a member of Parliament) to the 9th, 13th and 14th CPC National People's Congresses


You are giving YOURSELF as a reference? That really rich. I can't believe you just did that.

On top of that it wasn't just billionaires that you referred to. it was


All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:01 PM
Its the overall tone and defiant stance that (as far as we can tell by reading your postings) there is nothing wrong with chinese anything until the exact and detailed mechanism of the alleged problem with the material has been exhaustively researched, completely explained, and proven to be the exact and detailed problem in each individual separate case.

YOU are not satisfied with the association of problems exclusively with THAT drywall, or THAT cough syrup, or THAT toothpaste, or THAT pet food.

Oh, no, to satisfy the stalling tactics of Mahmoud AbedinijEvan, the material must be regarded as perfect, totally without faults, and must continue to be used as fast as possible, until the problem with each separate tube, bottle, sheet or whatever has been submitted in quintuplicate to representatives of Mr AbedinijEvan.

bah..... I'll prove nothing..... don't even ask. We can all SEE which way the wind blows, by watching the bamboo.


That's a bad mistake you are making. To think that because I am not sympathetic to your ideas in no way means that I am sympatheic to the ones you disagree with. It's a very common mistake made by even very intelligent people but nonetheless, it is a mistake.

When I support something you won't be in doubt and it won't be by some oblique reference. You should have already figured that out by now.

Demanding unambiguous scientific evidence for something that has the potential to affect the lives of entire nations of people isn't unreasonable in my view. It is the only approach that is in keeping with the premise that such actions be based in truth rather than inuenndo and propaganda.

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:16 PM
Not so fast. A government that doesn't have to obey its own laws, that has no political opposition/watchdogs, that doesn't value human life, that rapes the environment unlike any other, and that sets monetary policy based upon what gives it the most advantage can do amazing things.

In short, so what.


You need to study some history. Specifically US history. I'll supply you some key words: "Love Canal", "Hanford iodine", "nuclear testing", "agent orange", "anti personnel mines", "Cluster bomb failure rate", "nerve agents", "extinct US species", "missing plutonium", "missing nuclear weapons", "napalm", "Kent State", "ground water contamination", "teratogenic pesticides", "dead livestock", "fish kills", "acid rain", "US coal consumption"...

J Tiers
11-02-2009, 09:17 PM
Evan, don't blame Tony for that, as your quote presently does.

it's ME not Tony.

I'm not particularly good at reading minds, it only works sometimes...... Your posts looked, and still DO look one-sided on the issue, demanding unreasonable proof, and totally discounting the proven history of bogus, adulterated, and poisoned goods, which makes claims more credible, and the very apparent association of problems with specific companies which happen to be chinese.

You have focused on accusing us of blaming" the chinese" when some at least have been at pains to mention that it is specific companies.

And you have refused to believe "association" or 'correlation", apparently asserting it has no merit and no meaning.

But you are quick to take up the chinese assertions that it is all a plot against china. Quick to "blame America first".

I don't know what you think. I only see what you post here. And it certainly seems that you take the position of a "fellow traveler" with the chinese on most matters when you have a choice.

perhaps you are not pro-chinese. Maybe you are simply anti-American.

Evan
11-02-2009, 09:23 PM
But you are quick to take up the chinese assertions that it is all a plot against china. Quick to "blame America first".


Huh? That isn't something I am familiar with.


perhaps you are not pro-chinese. Maybe you are simply anti-American.


That is closer. I am "Anti American Foreign Policy".

Tony Ennis
11-02-2009, 10:24 PM
You need to study some history.

Just because we are imperfect doesn't somehow mean it's somehow ok for the Chinese to be dong what they are doing. Everything we do that's bad, the Chinese do worse due to the lack of political opposition. Further, I wasn't commenting on which country is good or bad so much as that China's ascendency isn't surprising at all because their government allows and practices totally unchecked social and economic manipulation.

You do come off as being anti-American, by the way, Evan.

Evan
11-02-2009, 10:54 PM
Even if it were true it doesn't make me pro Chinese. There is an almost overwhelming tendency here and in most situations to try to characterize things as black/white. It is never that simple.

gmatov
11-03-2009, 01:43 AM
I've said it before and elsewhere, but how many of the Chinese products were, at least initially, sold here BY Chinese companies?

So far as I know, everything that was imported here, as was everything that was imported from Japan in the 50's, 60's was imported by an AMERICAN importer who saw an advantage.

Mitsubishi was a Chrysler import. Iaccoca loved it until Mitsubishi decided to sell their cars directly. Then he cried that they had a 1500 buck advantage. Malcolm Bricklin imported the Honda Civic in the 60's. It took sales from US made cars. BFD. Malcolm made tons of money. All legal.

This is nothing new at all. There were World Meets of industrial capability in the 1800's. Krupp Steel sent their best, Sheffield, Birmingham, etc., and the best show got sales from foreign companies. Alfred Krupp was said to have taken out a pocket knife and whittled a sliver from a competitor's entry.

We'll never be competitive if all we do is import slum. We were as good as any in the world, better than most, in days long gone. Short sighted managers with bonuses in mind sold all US mfg down the River to make their bonuses.

Rebuild the US mfg base? Very little chance. We don't teach enough of our young to DO mechanical things. We all want our kids to be PROFESSIONALS, and it seems that all we have made are professional burger flippers.

Don't get me wrong, as to the US young. They can learn to lay block, side houses, lay shingles, work concrete.

Given a training program, I think you could train the same who will work with their hands to run any machine you can throw them at. Some of you are proof of this. Problem is, where the hell they gonna work when they become aces at this game?

Cheers,

George

dp
11-03-2009, 02:25 AM
Even if it were true it doesn't make me pro Chinese. There is an almost overwhelming tendency here and in most situations to try to characterize things as black/white. It is never that simple.

The same herd did the same thing to me. I was accused of being soft on China because I was adamant about the need for proper science in the drywall business I was not a knee-jerk China basher that that was evil. It had nothing to do with China and everything to do with solid provable evidence and repeatable verification.

It didn't stop there. I was also accused of supporting you when in fact you and I were supporting a common idea - that speculation isn't worth the time to think it up, and that the principles of good science were missing from the drywall hysteria (and then the melamine debacle). What I found particularly idiotic is that you were not blamed for supporting me - clearly you are the great Satan and I am your pawn :)

I came away believing not everyone on the BBS is capable of deep thinking, and some should never leave the shallow end of the gene pool :)

Evan
11-03-2009, 03:24 AM
I will give you an example of how pervasive the "If you ain't with us you must be against us" mentality is.

For many years Bill Gates refused to make contributions to either the Republican or Democratic parties. He is apolitical and didn't wish to support either. It became apparent that this was having a negative impact on Microsoft in regards to rule and lawmaking in Washington because of the perception that if you aren't my friend you must be the friend of my enemy. That of course is nonsense but it forced a change on the part of Microsoft to make political contributions of approximately equal value to both parties.

The vast majority of people cannot understand that it is possible to live without being a follower of some common creed. Since they cannot comprehend being entirely independent and unbound by convention already established by somebody they regard as a leader it is impossible for them to grasp that someone else may actually think that way.

Instead they automatically make the assumption that if you don't agree with me then you must belong to the other side. It is inconceivable that there may be room for independent thought that doesn't conform to either or even any of the possible positions that they recognize.

Of course the lack of understanding of what constitutes evidence is pervasive through all levels of education. This is reflected by adages in common use such as "Where there is smoke there is fire" when in reality where there is smoke there is smoke of undetermined origin until proven otherwise.

lazlo
11-03-2009, 08:02 AM
All the millionaires/billionaires are Communist Party Officials (or family members).You are giving YOURSELF as a reference? That really rich. I can't believe you just did that.

Read the thread Evan. I'm surprised the Google Child can't verify those citations. Of course, that wouldn't support your adoration of China :rolleyes:

Going down the list of China's richest men, according to Forbes:


Rong Yiren was the Vice-President of the People's Republic of China from 1993 to 1998 and was heavily involved with the opening of the Chinese economy to western investment. It is from this second accomplishment, when the western media coined him "The Red Capitalist".

After the death of Mao Zedong and the end of Cultural Revolution, Deng Xiaoping appointed Rong as an advisor for the economic opening of China. He set up the China International Trust and Investment Corp., or CITIC, in 1978, which was responsible for much of the initial western investment in China.

Rong retired in 1998 and died on October 26, 2005. He is listed as one of the richest men in Asia, with family fortune of $1.9 billion. he was a member of Communist Party of China since 1985

Larry Yung Chi-kin (son of Rong Yiren) was the chairman of CITIC Pacific, a Hong Kong-based conglomerate. According to Forbes Magazine, he is one of the wealthiest people in mainland China, with a personal net worth of $2.2 billion US dollars as of March, 2007.

Yung was born in Shanghai to a business man Rong Yiren, who later became the vice president of China during the 1990s.

After the turbulent years, (Vice President and Father) Rong Yiren came to good terms with Deng Xio Peng who came into power after Mao. With the support of the Chinese government and its capital, Yung Chi Kin moved to Hongkong and started businesses with the Chinese government as major shareholder, and he himself subsequently became one of the richest people in China.

His family's tie to the Communist Party of China earned his nickname "the Red Capitalist."

Lu Guanqiu. In 1969, Lu founded a farm machinery plant with the assistance of six others. Despite its initial capitalization of 4000 yuan, the company has developed into one of the 520 national key enterprises and 120 pilot enterprise groups under the State Council. It has nearly 10 billion yuan capital, 13,000 staff and workers, state-level technology center, state-level labs, and post-doctoral scientific research work stations. In 2001, Wanxiang Group had business incomes of 8.636 billion yuan, profits of 706 million yuan, and profits from exports of 178 million yuan.

Recent Career Data
Chairman of the Board, Wanxiang Group Company
1998—2003 Deputy, 9th NPC
1992—1997 Delegate, 14th CPC, National Congress
1987—1992 Delegate, 13th CPC, National Congress <- When his little company suddenly skyrocketed....
1969 Founder, Ningwei Commune Farm Machinery Plant

http://books.google.com/books?id=CvzebFwWRAcC&pg=PA107&lpg=PA107&dq=Diana+Chen+Pioneer+Iron+and+Metals+group+Lu+Don g,+China%E2%80%99s+metallurgy+minister.&source=bl&ots=3c0hsHHxzD&sig=wgd6CFRkBIHlKuxtrswcfqq3VtU&hl=en&ei=ZyvwSqbxEMeztgfmudDoBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Diana Chen. The Chinese state awarded monopolies for international trading. For example, the Pioneer Iron and Metals group was founded by Diana Chen, her gradfather, Lu Dong, was China’s metallurgy minister. With this connection, Chen was able to gain exclusive contracts to provide imported iron ore to several state-owned enterprises, making her company one of the largest private importers of iron ore into China, and making her into one of the nation’s richest
tycoons.




...and so on...

Evan
11-03-2009, 08:23 AM
Taken as given you show that several of the wealthiest people in China are party members. Please explain how that differs from the USA?

You also wrote "millionaires". You have provided no reference, not even yourself (:rolleyes: ) for that statement.


Read the thread Evan. I'm surprised the Google Child can't verify those citations. Of course, that wouldn't support your adoration of China

I'm not going to do your Wikipedia search for you. That's your job not to mention your hobby. You are an excellent example of the herd mentality.

The truth is I really don't believe that. What your real problem is is that I make you feel inadequate because I don't have a degree but still manage to show you up in these "conversations" that you so foolishly pursue. This detracts from the value of that degree on the wall in your mind and that is the same a debasing your own self worth.

Your reactions such as repeatedly pointing out that I was employed as a photocopier technician amply confirm that you are attempting, unsuccessfully in your own mind, to repair your loss of self esteem.

I suggest you take the degree down and put it away. Try to do the same in your own mind and base your self worth on your current accomplishments and abilities. Try posting something of your machining work instead of stalking me and generally disrupting the board. You might be surprised at what you find and I suspect it will reduce your stress level.

That will be 5 cents please.

lazlo
11-03-2009, 08:35 AM
Taken as given you show that several of the wealthiest people in China are party members.

You also wrote "millionaires". You have provided no reference, not even yourself (:rolleyes: ) for that statement.

All of the wealthiest people in China are party members. That's not a coincidence. China is a Communist, Totalitarian government. Their weird version of "Capitalism" is just their way of waging war on the western world.

By the way, Diana Chen is a millionaire -- I just skipped down the Forbes list to make a point. Did you expect me to provide citations for everyone on of the Forbes list? :rolleyes:


I'm not going to do your Wikipedia search for you. That's your job not to mention your hobby. You are an excellent example of the herd mentality.

I don't think you get the joke Evan. Dennis has been an adoring admirer since he visited you a couple of months ago, and jumps in to save you every time you put your foot in your mouth. A fact that many here have noted. Dennis coined the phrase "Herd Mentality" in the Drywall thread as a defense mechanism to indicate everyone except you and him. :)


What your real problem is is that I make you feel inadequate because I don't have a degree but still manage to show you up in these "conversations" that you so foolishly pursue. This detracts from the value of that degree on the wall in your mind and that is the same a debasing your own self worth.

LOL Evan! You ask for citations for the statement I made that all the wealthy in China are Communist Party members, and I did. So your reaction is to feel insecure about dropping out of college? :D

I didn't learn about China while I was getting degrees in engineering -- I learned about China by reading the paper. You should try it sometime.