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motorcyclemac
11-10-2009, 02:14 AM
Hey folks,

I have a chance at getting a surface grinder here locally. However I am a bit uncertain if I want it. I have done some research and I can't find anything on it. It is a name I don't recognize...at all.

It is a "Harvel" surface grinder. It appears to be 6x12, has an electro mag chuck, is 1hp I believe...possibly 1.5 horse. I believe the wheels are 1x8. It looks to be in reasonable shape. I would guess the vintage to be about 1965-75 ish. All in all it looks ok and seems to be in decent shape. BUT..if it is an odd ball I might not want it. Supposedly it runs fine and everything works but has been sitting in a wearhouse and I have no history on it.

Does anyone have a clue about the approximate value? I am guessing based on looks and reported fully functional operation...it should be $1000-$1500?

Here is a picture I found on the internet.. This is reportedly a 6x18. The one I am looking at may be that size as well. I have only looked at it briefly and in poor light. The one I have available is in factory paint.. This internet machine pic has been rattle canned. But looks the same in every way.

http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj61/motorcyclemac/harvel.jpg


Thanks
Mac.

Doc Nickel
11-10-2009, 02:19 AM
Are you sure it's not "Covel"?

Doc.

motorcyclemac
11-10-2009, 02:32 AM
No...I don't think it is Covel...

I seem to recall that the placard clearly said Harvel. The pic above is what came up when I Googled Harvel...and it looks like the unit I was shown.

I understand the confusion... When I was told about it...I thought Covel...as well.

Cheers
Mac.

Walter
11-10-2009, 06:14 AM
Mac,

I'll keep it real short. If you can't run it, and I mean turn it on, grind something and see exactly how it operates don't spend that much.

It may be a great machine, but it could very well have problems. See it under power before you let go of a cent. Personally I think the price you suggest is high. For a manual machine of that size that is in good shape a price range of 250-800 seems more in line. There are just too many machines out there these days to spend high.

Seeing as the name isn't seemingly well known instantly raises a red flag to me in that parts are probably scarce, Information also the same. But eh, I'm very touchy about how I spend money, and I'm cheap ;)

Bill Pace
11-10-2009, 09:35 AM
For a manual machine of that size that is in good shape a price range of 250-800 seems more in line. There are just too many machines out there these days to spend high.

Ditto what Walter says, except I think I would lower his price range even more, say, 250-500 -- his comment about "too many machines out there" is glaringly true. Just get on ebay and pull up surface grinders, Lordy, they run pages and pages. And it can be a pain to get parts for some of the well know names in grinders, much less one like this.

motorcyclemac
11-10-2009, 12:18 PM
Makes sense...

The price I was suggesting is more what I have seen many common machines priced...

I don't want something abstract. I'll hold out for a more common brand..Maybe a Bridgeport..

Thanks for the comments... I'll steer clear.

Cheers
Mac.

pcarpenter
11-10-2009, 12:37 PM
I remember talking to a guy who used to be a machinery dealer up around Chicago years ago about Bridgeport's attempt at surface grinders. I vaguely recall that he didn't think much of them. Names that come to mind when I think of major surface grinder makers are Harig, Brown and Sharp, DoAll, Boyar-Schultz etc. If I recall correctly he made reference to Bridgeport having decided to use a Turcite product or something on the ways and that it was not very compatible with something that made abraisive dust. On the other hand, I think the Bridgeport was actually made for them by someone else. I guess I just don't have any first-hand knowledge and should probably just shuddup:D

Paul

Mcgyver
11-10-2009, 02:24 PM
Makes sense...

The price I was suggesting is more what I have seen many common machines priced...

I don't want something abstract. I'll hold out for a more common brand..Maybe a Bridgeport..

Thanks for the comments... I'll steer clear.

Cheers
Mac.


the flip side is so long as it was quality to begin with, what matters is condition not brand. It's a couple of grand to get a spindle professionally done, balance with new bearings, so i'd be a lot more concerned how it performed rather than the badge. imo parts availability doesn't enter into....even if the brand is still around, are parts? I bet Norton would laugh at me if i phoned up for parts....and besides parts i've needed for machines are either things like bearings or things that can be made

quasi
11-10-2009, 02:50 PM
was Harig not owned by Bridgeport at one time?

pcarpenter
11-10-2009, 03:48 PM
was Harig not owned by Bridgeport at one time?

Well, that could well be. I guess then that the followup question would be "If Bridgeport owned Harig, is a Bridgeport branded surface grinder just some re-badged Harig model?"

Edit-- this bugger looks amazingly like the Harig grinder in the shop downstairs from me at work. I can't help but notice that while the ad says Bridgport Harig, the grinder itself seems to have Harig in big letters on top of the column.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Bridgeport-Harig-618-Manual-Surface-Grinder-220V-3Ph_W0QQitemZ250527997841QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item3a54a1df91
Paul

Mcruff
11-10-2009, 05:41 PM
Yes Harig was owned by Bridgeport at one time. But Bridgeport did make there own surface grinder for awhile. The downfeed on the ones I ran was actually on the spindle head and moved up and down with the spindle, it was a crap design and left a reasonable finish but it was no where on par with a Harig, Okamoto or any of the better surface grinders. It was very uncomfortable to run, especially when you had to run it for several hours or days at a time.

Your picture is a Harig grinder not really a Bridgeport grinder from my experience.

easymike29
11-10-2009, 06:56 PM
Looks like it was made for a left handed operator.

Gene

lazlo
11-10-2009, 07:04 PM
I remember talking to a guy who used to be a machinery dealer up around Chicago years ago about Bridgeport's attempt at surface grinders. I vaguely recall that he didn't think much of them.

Bridgeport owned Harig until 2002, and Harig does make a Turcite version of their grinders. Is that what he was thinking of?

Mcruff
11-10-2009, 08:27 PM
Harig also made a version of there 6x12 that had Teflon coated ways, what a piece of crap that was.

lazlo
11-10-2009, 09:37 PM
Harig also made a version of there 6x12 that had Teflon coated ways, what a piece of crap that was.

What was bad about it? Did the ways corrode from the grinding grit?

I have a Harig 6x12 (plain, hardened ways) and the table is hydrodynamically floated. As in, if you turn off the power to the oil pump, the table sags down and bad things happen.
I think that's a big reason for Harig's reputation for accuracy. But I don't know how hydrodynamic ways work with Turcite/Teflon ways? Isn't that redundant?

motorcyclemac
11-11-2009, 01:07 AM
I did quite a bit of research on used surface grinders today. Everyone is right here.. There are a LOT of them on ebay and other vendor sites. $1500 will get a good reasonable used machine of high quality. Seemingly a Harig or Brown and Sharp or DoAll is the cream of the crop really. They can be had used and refurbished for reasonable cost. I would much rather pay $1500-2000 or more for a very good quality brand name (some with DRO) than to buy a pig and a poke with this Harvel locally. I cannot see this one run..and if I was going to buy one with out a test drive...I would rather buy it from a reputable machine broker with a return policy.

I did find a Brown and Sharp 6x12 that had been totally refurbed, painted, all new bearings, rewired, new wheel, and included a brand new Accurite for $4500. It looked all brand new. I might be inclined to do something like that and get something of known quality.

There are some new machines like Chevalier and Acer that are somewhat reasonably priced for new. I know nothing about the new machines. I have run Harig, Brown and Sharp and a Bridgeport that was made by Harig. I would be more comfortable owning one of those I think vs a machine I don't know.

Am I correct that Chevalier and Acer are both imports?

Cheers
Mac.

Bolster
11-11-2009, 01:27 AM
Wow, I think I recognize that SG. It looks very similar to the one at our college machine shop, except I remember the wheel that raises and lowers being oriented 90 degrees. The prof just helped me grind down a slightly-too-wide hardened steel wood plane blade with it the other day; it worked like a charm. He told me the SG could pretty easily hold tolerances of two tenths or so. Maybe I can remember to get a photo of it and read the name. If it's the same brand, its brother has been doing yeoman's duty at our local college (in the hands of abusive students no less) for many a year and it's still performing great.

I figure any machine that can take student abuse for 20 years and still perform to spec is a decent quality machine!

Mcruff
11-11-2009, 02:58 AM
What was bad about it? Did the ways corrode from the grinding grit?

I have a Harig 6x12 (plain, hardened ways) and the table is hydrodynamically floated. As in, if you turn off the power to the oil pump, the table sags down and bad things happen.
I think that's a big reason for Harig's reputation for accuracy. But I don't know how hydrodynamic ways work with Turcite/Teflon ways? Isn't that redundant?

Yes they would get embedded with grit and dust over a period of a year or so. They also never had the feel of hard Chromed or tool steel ways and personally I think it was from this.
My understanding was that Harig actually built these machines to be used for grinding graphite electrodes for EDM in a confined room with a large dust collector system.

quasi
11-11-2009, 06:52 PM
mine are fine, no problems what so ever. It also does not have an oil pump, all oiling is manual. It is sort of a base model Harig, badged by Powermatic but made for them by Harig.

ulav8r
11-12-2009, 12:17 AM
Chevalier is definitely Chinese. I dealt with one that had electrical problems, could not get parts from Chevalier. We ended up scrapping it.

motorcyclemac
11-12-2009, 01:37 AM
Chevalier is definitely Chinese. I dealt with one that had electrical problems, could not get parts from Chevalier. We ended up scrapping it.

Thanks for answering that..

Acer and Sharp are also imports correct?

Thanks
Mac.

lazlo
11-12-2009, 08:07 AM
Acer and Sharp are also imports correct?

Yes, that's right.

Mcgyver
11-12-2009, 08:30 AM
Am I correct that Chevalier and Acer are both imports?

Cheers
Mac.

Chevalier is made in Taiwan, or at least was. That definitely makes it an import but stuff from Taiwan is a world of difference from stuff from China.

Quality on Chavelier is so-so imo. I've got one apart now for rebuilding and i think i'll end up with a very decent machine, better than what i started with and worth doing, but it is not the same quality as my Norton grinder.

I often wonder what guys mean they say the quality is good or bad....so i'll tell you what i mean :). There's a spot where a hole is drilled and tapped half way off the boss its supposed to be centred on, there's a pulley on a counter shaft thats way to loose a fit so ends up with quite a wobble, little things like that. Spindle uses P3 bearings which are so-so for a grinder, no measurable run out though. Bearings were from a first world manufacturer which probably should be a red light/green light on deciding if a grinder is quality enough to get a spot in your shop.. I think the spindle is quiet but haven't eliminated all motor vibration yet so its hard to tell. Then again, this grinder is probably 10-20 years old so these hints at pedigree may or may not still apply

So Taiwan isn't Canada, England or the States, but its not China either where sometimes you're left wondering whats this casting really made of :D

lazlo
11-12-2009, 08:40 AM
Chevalier is made in Taiwan, or at least was. That definitely makes it an import but stuff from Taiwan is a world of difference from stuff from China.

Acer and Sharp are also Taiwanese companies. But they outsource most of their castings to mainland China.

But as you say, Acer and Sharp (and Feeler) quality is way better than mainland China. I haven't seen a Chevalier in the flesh, but someone sold a Chevalier benchtop tool and cutter grinder on PM, and it had a cracked casting. Looked like a casting flaw, and not a impact. Hard to make a sweeping assessment based on a single sample, but you don't see Monarchs with cracked castings :)

websterz
11-12-2009, 08:44 AM
Don't forget Gallmeyer & Livingston. Good quality AMERICAN MADE iron! I have a 1951 model #25 that I got on Craigslist for $375. I called the company with my serial number and they provided the history of the machine including the rebuilds and upgrades that had been done at the factory. She runs like a dream!!:D

Mcgyver
11-12-2009, 09:33 AM
Acer and Sharp are also Taiwanese companies. But they outsource most of their castings to mainland China.

But as you say, Acer and Sharp (and Feeler) quality is way better than mainland China. I haven't seen a Chevalier in the flesh, but someone sold a Chevalier benchtop tool and cutter grinder on PM, and it had a cracked casting. Looked like a casting flaw, and not a impact. Hard to make a sweeping assessment based on a single sample, but you don't see Monarchs with cracked castings :)

funnily enough, I'm long on Chevalier tool & cutter grinders right now having both the bench model and the floor model (a K O Lee clone). Floor model is being scraped as part of complete restoration; its attraction is a motorized work head so it doubles up as a light cylindrical grinder....which is why it was added

The bench model is imo a well made machine, it retailed for like 5-7k or something like that....point being it wasn't a harbor freight or busy bee item. Now its self serving of me as my bench top will soon be for sale (or maybe it should keep it as a designated endmill grinding station lol), but it really is a nice machine. The only complaint i have is that in one spot a hole is drilled in a slightly incorrect position so that a tooth rest adjustment doesn't work properly....its those little things that make you shake your head; can't see that getting through say Cincinnati's QC check