OT: Hydraulics freezing up in winter.

[Ken_Shea]

Winter is on the way and I use the tractor's front loader to clean the drive, haul wood etc, however when it's 20ºf or so the hydraulic joy stick type lever cannot be moved till it sits and warms up for about 30 minutes, the colder the longer it has to set and idle.

Does this sound like a viscosity thing from the cold or water freezing up somewhere in the cables from the control?

Ken

[Willy]

Ken if the control is absolutely rock solid and cannot move at all I would suspect moisture in the control cables.
Winter grade hydraulic oil is recommended if the hydraulic functions are sluggish when cold, but no movement at all would point to moisture as you already suggested.
A light lube, silicone spray, or water displacement type lube would help, as would little rubber booties on the cable ends so water cannot enter the inner cable.

[camdigger]

Water Displacing formula #40 liberally applied to both ends of the cables.:D Must be a fairly new tractor to have control cables from the joystick. Most older tractors don't have cables, the control handles are installed directly onto the spool valve body and the plumbing run to the operator's area.

Seriously though, it seems unlikely that there would be enough heat thrown off your tractor in 30 minutes to solve a moisture problem. I'd look at the oil in the system. Machines made in warmer climes are often shipped with heavier grade oils. There's even multigrade hyd oil available.

Another dodge is to put a magnetic pan heater on the oil reservoir and/or tarping in the reservoir to preserve heat. Use this dodge with caution, though because once you tarp in to retain heat, there is such a thing as too much heat....

[Ken_Shea]

Willy, EDIT: and camdigger :)
I'll do that, they are a stinker to get the one end but it should be worth the effort as it is very annoying to have to wait when it's usually something that has to be done and not wanting to.

I just changed the oil last year, got it from the Kubota dealer so it is not some generic fluid. I see some synthetic types now available that may be worth the effort and expense as well and then both potential problem areas should be covered.

Thanks
Ken

[Willy]

Ken, here's an easy check to determine where to go first.
Are the controls locked solid before you start?
Try a heat gun or hair dryer on the cables to see if that loosens things up without the tractor running.

[Ken_Shea]

Willy,
That's a good idea, the only downside is I'd have to wait till they froze to do that, would be nice to just get it out of the way before the snow starts to fly and the real cold sets in.

Not sure if the cables are removable from one end or crimped clevis both ends, if I could pull them out some signs of moisture should be visible. I'll take a look tonight.


Ken

[camdigger]

Willy, EDIT: and camdigger :)
I'll do that, they are a stinker to get the one end but it should be worth the effort as it is very annoying to have to wait when it's usually something that has to be done and not wanting to.

I just changed the oil last year, got it from the Kubota dealer so it is not some generic fluid. I see some synthetic types now available that may be worth the effort and expense as well and then both potential problem areas should be covered.

Thanks
Ken

It's better to tackle it now than in another 6 weeks when Momma's been snowed in for a few days.... (That's the voice of experience talking:rolleyes: )

I'm curious though, is this issue new? does it coincide with the system oil change?

[Ken_Shea]

Camdigger,
Not new, been doing that for about 3-4 years but started before the fluid change.

Which, sound like a moisture now that I think about that.

Yes, I told the wife I wanted to get it fixed so a snow blocked drive way allows her an excuse not to go to work :D

[madman]

Is this WD 40? Idf so refrain from using it in cold weather as it will actually freeze up.

[Ken_Shea]

Is this WD 40? Idf so refrain from using it in cold weather as it will actually freeze up.

madman, don't use WD-40 for anything ;)
Pretty much use a product call Gibbs for this type of thing.

I hear WD-40 does work pretty well on machining aluminum, but never tried it. And I thought this thread was not going to have machining content :D

[digger_doug]

The hair dryer, is a good technique to spot the problem area.

One little area I have seen collect is the "backside" of the spool,
the handle normally attaches to one end of the spool (in this case
a cable end) the other end has a bolt on cover (or a cup shaped thing)
and this is where I have found the return spring, held in place with
a snap ring , the groove being into the end of the spool itself.

The cup or cover held water, and rusted up the snap ring. The water also
froze, and acted just like the O.P.

If the oil was suspect, I think I would be hearing a abnormal amount of
noise when running (bordering on cavitation), either from actual cavitation,
or the relief valve singing.

[ckalley]

I also had the problem with the cap over the spool end getting water inside & freezing. I took it apart, cleaned everything and when I put it back together, I sealed the joint between the cap and valve body with some RTV gasket maker. That helped a lot.

Another trick I found is to lubricate the cables with straight (undiluted) car anti-freeze. That way if you get some miosture in there is isn't going to freeze as easy
YMMV

Craig

[RTPBurnsville]

You mention Kubota...... The last time I change the fluid in mine the dealer had two different types of fluid. I don't remember the exact names at the moment but the stuff with a "Super"xxx in the name was suppose to perform much better in colder temps. When it's cold (like 0F or lower) it takes about 15 minutes before the hydraulic system works as it should in my BX1500. Before the warmup its very ssslllooowww.

[kennyd4110]

What tractor/FEL is this? Some Kubota's had problems with water getting in the spool caps on the valve causing the problems you are having. The early warning sine is that the float function stops working correctly.

Also, the BEST lubricant by far for equipment that see weather is Fluid Film (http://www.fluid-film.com/products/index.html). Expensive-but it work unbelievably well. It won't dry out like others do.

[torker]

Another common problem if you have moisture in your system...and a paper filter...the filter can freeze solid and fluid won't move til the oil heats up and melts the filter media.
My machine drove me nuts til I changed to a SS mesh type filter.
Russ

[SVS]

ATV mechanics have a fitting that fits the cable sheath and allows you to FORCE lube through-sounds like a lathe project to me.

I plug a jumper hose into one remote then put the lever in detent. Makes a pressure compensated pump actually pump some volume and speeds warm up.

[Ken_Shea]

Did look tonight, the cables are well shielded at both ends, boot covered at the top and fully enclosed at the valve.

That "Super_XXX" fluid was what I saw doing a search.

It is a Kubota L2900gst

Lots of good suggestions that's I was after, first thing is the cables are coming off for a look see.

More and more seem to point to the cables though, the Glide shift operates off the same Hydraulic oil and it shifts smoothly right from the start.

[Ken_Shea]

Another common problem if you have moisture in your system...and a paper filter...the filter can freeze solid and fluid won't move til the oil heats up and melts the filter media.
My machine drove me nuts til I changed to a SS mesh type filter.
Russ

Russ, did the controls seem locked?

[kennyd4110]

Did look tonight, the cables are well shielded at both ends, boot covered at the top and fully enclosed at the valve.

That "Super_XXX" fluid was what I saw doing a search.

It is a Kubota L2900gst

Lots of good suggestions that's I was after, first thing is the cables are coming off for a look see.

More and more seem to point to the cables though, the Glide shift operates off the same Hydraulic oil and it shifts smoothly right from the start.

Isn't the joystick/valve mounted to the loader mast?

[Ken_Shea]

Isn't the joystick/valve mounted to the loader mast?

KennyD,
The valve is located low on the mast but the Joystick control is on the right fender.

[RTPBurnsville]

You might also check the web site www.tractorbynet.com They have a Kubota forum and one can usually find an answer as someone there likely experienced it before you have.

Robert

[torker]

Russ, did the controls seem locked?
Yes...the odd time. Hydraulic guy told me it was because of the way they built the tank etc on my machine...that I'd always be having condensation problems.
I don't use it much when it's really cold but did find out last winter...I can take this new mesh filter out and thaw it...that removes most of the moisture and it's good for awhile after that.
Must need that again.
I ran it a couple days ago and one of the backhoe controls is sticking really bad....it is hard to move at first and then won't return to center.
Once the oil heats up its ok.

Russ

[Ken_Shea]

You might also check the web site www.tractorbynet.com (http://www.tractorbynet.com) They have a Kubota forum and one can usually find an answer as someone there likely experienced it before you have.

Robert
Good lionk Robert, did find additional suggestions, now I have even more, be my good fortune that they all apply :D

EDIT:
Even more likely, only one applies but it will be the last thing I do.

[Langanobob]

I get aircraft hydraulic fluid for my snowplow as it's lower viscosity and works smoothly at low temps. Don't know how much your tractor holds but the aircraft stuff is kind of pricey at $25 a gallon or so. I get it from a plane maintenance shop near my local airport. It's recommended by the plow mfr, so not something I just dreamed up.

[motorcyclemac]

If you are getting moisture in the hydro tank..is there any merit to putting a water trap spin on filter on the return line? We used to use a water separator filter on gas station dispensers. Is the return line low enough pressure to use a spin on filter like that?

Cheers
Mac.

[Ken_Shea]

If you are getting moisture in the hydro tank..is there any merit to putting a water trap spin on filter on the return line? We used to use a water separator filter on gas station dispensers. Is the return line low enough pressure to use a spin on filter like that?

Cheers
Mac.

Mac, I'm pretty convinced at this point that it's not water in the tank but moisture freezing in or at the cable ends.

[Willy]

I find that the little rubber booties on the cable ends, although helpful, are at best a shield and not really an effective seal.
Once you are satisfied that the cables are free of moisture apply a light oil to the inner cable, to help water from sticking to it, then apply a liberal amount of grease near the ends and around the booties to seal out the water.
If the ends are near areas that regularly get splashed with water, like near the wheels for instance, an extra splash shield made from something like a piece of inner tube or plastic will help fend off the water.

[airsmith282]

if you were able to store it in a heated place then you would never have a problem ,,

i know, no machine stuff but i have to put this one in , my mill quill gets really sluggy on me in cooler temps so i heat up the shop to about 30 celceous thats hot for use canadians any how and she runs perfect, and yes i took it apart and relubed it all , its just the way the thing is for some reason, even my lath is a bit slugy when its cold there is no cure other then heated area..

anything that uses oil or hydrolic fluids or grease is going to jam up or get really darn sluggy when its to cold. there is no cure other then heated storage, etc, etc,